Built For The 4-3

[JoeyFlex5]

last year greg mattison was no type of coach for a 3-4, he lets his players sit back and wait for the play to come to them, which just doesnt work in a 3-4... its a 3 man rush... last year we had 3-4 players and a 4-3 style coach, but i feel like now we have the full personell for a 4-3. sure mattison is supposed to be more aggressive and putting an emphasis on pass rush this season, but i feel like with this draft, were built perfect for a 4-3. remember sam adams and goose? thats ngata and mt. cody. suggs was an elite pass rusher as a 4-3 DE, and he just cant produce the same way as an OLB. suggs at 6'3" 260, only has 10 lbs on sergio kindle, who DID play DE in college, not OLB, with a extra 10 lbs on kindle he could be a spitting image of suggs as a DE, and with the new wall we got in the middle they would just wreak havoc. ray is ray, and let him do what he does in the middle, and if harbs thinks its necessary, put a athlete in there on 3rd down in the middle, t-good is exceptionally fast at linebacker and could excel in coverage. every linebacker on our roster could play OLB in a 4-3. i just feel like if our biggest problem on defense is pass rush, this could possibly provide a NATURAL pass rush without the exotic blitz packages(that greg mattison doesnt bring to the table) that is almost required to get pass rush in a 3-4. obviously we have the versatility in our players to break out the 3-4 when its necessary(like against the colts, since peyton manning loves to make mistakes against the 3-4, including us) and mix it up here and there, but i wanna know does anyone else agree that a base 4-3 would help us alot more.

[slugz1]

we play a hybrid of both mixed with some 46.

[Ed_Reed20]

Not again...

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='25 June 2010 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1277439169' post='426194']
Not again...
[/quote]
Looks that way.....

[AwakenTheDemon]

Nah, forget going base 4-3. We should make our base a dime defense, right? Right!?

[theFRANCHISE]

3-4, 4-3, 2-6, 5-9, 6-11...whatever base defense you prefer (real or not), the Ravens' defense is built to play, period.

As last season showed, it's not necessarily the scheme, but the players in it, that make it work.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='25 June 2010 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1277442564' post='426214']
3-4, 4-3, 2-6, 5-9, 6-11...whatever base defense you prefer (real or not), the Ravens' defense is built to play, period.

As last season showed, it's not necessarily the scheme, but the players in it, that make it work.
[/quote]

I agree one hundred percent. That's what's made the Baltimore defense so feared and potent over the years, in my opinion. Not only do you have some of the best defensive players in the league, but they're able to be effective in nearly any formation.

[Radinho84]

i cannot believe that this comes up again!!!!!!
we had it about 100 times now!!!

[Rav'n Maniac]

Why not just bring the house and line all 11 up in the dirt, that way we totally eliminate PI calls this season! Or, as we are constantly reminded by the media, other teams and especially their fans that we are too old of a team to put Ray on a island in the middle. I guess he's not be able to maneuver his walker around fast enough!

All kidding aside, the 4-3 we ran in 2000 was perfect when teams pounded the ball more. In these pass happy times, I personally like the 3-4 better because it helps to keep opposing QBs guessing where the rush is coming from and disguises a forth and/or fifth rusher.

No matter what scheme we run our players will dominate.

[JEEPercreepermd]

I'll have to disagree. You see, we don't have a pass rushing DE, let alone two. A 3-4 DE like Ngata is a run stuffer, Cody would be playing next to him at NT (rotating with gregg) A big part of our problem last season was that our Dline wasn't collapsing the pocket, not only giving QB's time, but giving them a place to step away from that outside pass rush.

I saw tons of times where the Ravens outside pressure was getting there, but the QB just stepped up into a perfect pocket back there and got rid of it.

I attribute this to both Bannan and Gregg having sub par seasons at NT last year.
That being said, Suggs needs to step up. JJ had a nice year last year, but hopefully Kruger sees more time as a pass rusher now that he has put on some weight.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='25 June 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1277442564' post='426214']
3-4, 4-3, 2-6, 5-9, 6-11...whatever base defense you prefer (real or not), the Ravens' defense is built to play, period.

As last season showed, it's not necessarily the scheme, but the players in it, that make it work.
[/quote]
I don't know if the last two will work... there's something in the rulebook about eleven players.

[Ngata92NT]

[quote name='JEEPercreepermd' date='25 June 2010 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1277474348' post='426297']
I'll have to disagree. You see, we don't have a pass rushing DE, let alone two. A 3-4 DE like Ngata is a run stuffer, Cody would be playing next to him at NT (rotating with gregg) A big part of our problem last season was that our Dline wasn't collapsing the pocket, not only giving QB's time, but giving them a place to step away from that outside pass rush.

I saw tons of times where the Ravens outside pressure was getting there, but the QB just stepped up into a perfect pocket back there and got rid of it.

I attribute this to both Bannan and Gregg having sub par seasons at NT last year.
That being said, Suggs needs to step up. JJ had a nice year last year, but hopefully Kruger sees more time as a pass rusher now that he has put on some weight.
[/quote]

I disagree, Ngata would be much more effective at both pass-rushing and run stuffing in the 4-3. Ngata almost never gets sacks but that's because he's always getting double teamed or chipped, he's a much better pass rusher than you think he is. You're also forgetting about Redding. He can line up at DT/DE and rush the pass as well. Something like:

Suggs Ngata Gregg/Cody Redding

or

Suggs Ngata Redding Kruger

could be very effective.

[BlindSide]

You guys want to know the difference between the 3-4 and the 4-3 for us, It depends on Suggs, If he put his hand down it is a 4-3 it he stands up it is a 3-4.

[PuRock]

Is it that time again for another 3-4 vs 4-3 discussion already? I need to check my calendar.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PuRock' date='25 June 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1277485676' post='426356']
Is it that time again for another 3-4 vs 4-3 discussion already? I need to check my calendar.
[/quote]

I wonder if this debate will be as epic as the one a few months ago.

[BuckWilds]

I've got my ammo out for this one:

#3 in yards allowed
#3 in points allowed
#5 against the run
#8 against the pass

Mattison is fine. The defense is fine. The scheme is fine. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens.

[ClintLB8]

Well.. I have played in a 4-3 and a 3-4 defense and I must say that the ravens are better suited for the 3-4. Ozzie based a lot of his draft picks around a 3-4 defense. Terrance Cody dominated as a 3-4 NT on a National Championship defense at Alabama and allowed Rolando McClain to just flow to the football (I am a HUGE Alabama fan BTW). Also, Sergio Kindle did play defensive end this year for Texas but he has experience at OLB for the Longhorns from previous years. At 6-4, 250, Kindle is much more suited to rush the outside as a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 end in the NFL. Arthur Jones. in my opinion, can be a very solid backup at a 3-4 defensive end spot behind Haloti Ngata (who will have a much better year considering Terrance Cody will take up a least 2-3 blockers). We have too many talented linebackers to keep them off the field. If you can be effective with 3 down linemen instead of 4, then do it for sure! Terrell Suggs had a small weight problem that hurt him last year but has since dedicated himself to losing weight to get back down to his 260 form (which should help him considerably). The Ravens have helped themselves become more of a 3-4 defense because of the draft and getting the players they need to help make things click more. If the Ravens wanted to switch it up a bit and run a 4-3 then all they would have to do is have Terrell Suggs put his hand on the ground and wreck havoc from there. Fact of the matter is that we have too many athletes on the defensive side of the ball to not have a top 5 defense in every single category next year.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='25 June 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1277488236' post='426369']
I've got my ammo out for this one:

#3 in yards allowed
#3 in points allowed
#5 against the run
#8 against the pass

Mattison is fine. The defense is fine. The scheme is fine. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens.
[/quote]
Some people won't be happy until the unit is #1 in all categories. Then again, being ranked 1st doesn't necessarily guarantee a championship, now does it?

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='25 June 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1277487466' post='426364']
I wonder if this debate will be as epic as the one a few months ago.
[/quote]
lol the one with rastaman, im pretty sure some members left part of their souls in that topic.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='ClintLB8' date='25 June 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1277492471' post='426417']
Well.. I have played in a 4-3 and a 3-4 defense and I must say that the ravens are better suited for the 3-4. Ozzie based a lot of his draft picks around a 3-4 defense. Terrance Cody dominated as a 3-4 NT on a National Championship defense at Alabama and allowed Rolando McClain to just flow to the football (I am a HUGE Alabama fan BTW). Also, Sergio Kindle did play defensive end this year for Texas but he has experience at OLB for the Longhorns from previous years. At 6-4, 250, Kindle is much more suited to rush the outside as a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 end in the NFL. Arthur Jones. in my opinion, can be a very solid backup at a 3-4 defensive end spot behind Haloti Ngata (who will have a much better year considering Terrance Cody will take up a least 2-3 blockers). We have too many talented linebackers to keep them off the field. If you can be effective with 3 down linemen instead of 4, then do it for sure! Terrell Suggs had a small weight problem that hurt him last year but has since dedicated himself to losing weight to get back down to his 260 form (which should help him considerably). The Ravens have helped themselves become more of a 3-4 defense because of the draft and getting the players they need to help make things click more. If the Ravens wanted to switch it up a bit and run a 4-3 then all they would have to do is have Terrell Suggs put his hand on the ground and wreck havoc from there. Fact of the matter is that we have too many athletes on the defensive side of the ball to not have a top 5 defense in every single category next year.
[/quote]
Not only that but Kindle stood up alot this year as well.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='25 June 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1277493368' post='426430']
Some people won't be happy until the unit is #1 in all categories. Then again, being ranked 1st doesn't necessarily guarantee a championship, now does it?
[/quote]

Hehe, let me tweet Coach Ryan and ask.

[H8R]

Tampa2 has my vote.......

[ravenbeast]

i would disagree with anyone who said the system don't matter i think we should be 4-3. Reason cause i think cody would be more signifficant on the field then ellerbe. Cody run stops and he would help taking two offensive lineman to open up the ends for suggs and jj. And help ray in the middle i don't see ellerbe doing as much. Ellerbe is good dont get me wrong though. heres how my 4-3 would go
DL-suggs cody ngata kruger
LBS kindle ray jj all i gotta say is how you gonna stop that there is pass rush and run stop. And honestly our olbs and DE's could switch at anytime. Man i should be D cordinator haha

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='ravenbeast' date='25 June 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1277511850' post='426591']
[b]i would disagree with anyone who said the system don't matter[/b] i think we should be 4-3. Reason cause i think cody would be more signifficant on the field then ellerbe. Cody run stops and he would help taking two offensive lineman to open up the ends for suggs and jj. And help ray in the middle i don't see ellerbe doing as much. Ellerbe is good dont get me wrong though. heres how my 4-3 would go
DL-suggs cody ngata kruger
LBS kindle ray jj all i gotta say is how you gonna stop that there is pass rush and run stop. And honestly our olbs and DE's could switch at anytime. Man i should be D cordinator haha
[/quote]

What if Coach Mattison and Coach Harbaugh told you that?

[ravenbeast]

What if they said the system didn't matter- Id disagree with them to saying the system dont matter is saying all players are equal and we all must face the facts that some players have more talent. Example if you took the vikings and made them a 3-4 and took one of there probowl DT out would jared allen be as effective no he'd see more double teams or chip blocks cause pat williams wouldnt be inside eating up 2 blockers. I feel we need more size up front. The bengals ran for over 100 yards on us twice and the vikings also did. When we played the colts in the playoffs and they could run the ball on us i knew we were in trouble.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='ravenbeast' date='25 June 2010 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1277513477' post='426598']
What if they said the system didn't matter- Id disagree with them to saying the system dont matter is saying all players are equal and we all must face the facts that some players have more talent. Example if you took the vikings and made them a 3-4 and took one of there probowl DT out would jared allen be as effective no he'd see more double teams or chip blocks cause pat williams wouldnt be inside eating up 2 blockers. I feel we need more size up front. The bengals ran for over 100 yards on us twice and the vikings also did. When we played the colts in the playoffs and they could run the ball on us i knew we were in trouble.
[/quote]

Good points. I think what the folks saying 'scheme doesn't matter' are saying is that it really doesn't matter what our base defense is classified, because we have personnel to expand into a couple of defensive schemes. Depending on how certain players develop (Cody for example) we might see some 4-3 mixed in. We do have personnel to be able to play both.

[ravenbeast]

yea our olbs are very versitle and i feel any of the could also play de in a 4-3

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='25 June 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1277514039' post='426601']
Good points. I think what the folks saying 'scheme doesn't matter' are saying is that it really doesn't matter what our base defense is classified, because we have personnel to expand into a couple of defensive schemes. Depending on how certain players develop (Cody for example) we might see some 4-3 mixed in. We do have personnel to be able to play both.
[/quote]
That's basically what I'm saying. There's a rhyme and reason as to why John Harbaugh has told Ozzie Newsome to draft for versatility in the past three drafts. Versatility helps patch up any holes created by injury and helps negate many deficiencies in scheme or chemistry. This emphasis on versatility is what enables the defense to play out of any base formation and play well, hence why the scheme doesn't really matter.

It sounds really simplistic, but the front office drafted players that can flat-out play. The proof is in the relatively consistent success that the franchise has had in the past decade.

[grape drank]

[quote name='ravenbeast' date='25 June 2010 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1277511850' post='426591']
i would disagree with anyone who said the system don't matter i think we should be 4-3. Reason cause i think cody would be more signifficant on the field then ellerbe. Cody run stops and he would help taking two offensive lineman to open up the ends for suggs and jj. And help ray in the middle i don't see ellerbe doing as much. Ellerbe is good dont get me wrong though. heres how my 4-3 would go
DL-suggs cody ngata kruger
LBS kindle ray jj all i gotta say is how you gonna stop that there is pass rush and run stop. And honestly our olbs and DE's could switch at anytime. Man i should be D cordinator haha
[/quote]

I agree except not with your starting line haha. Id go with Cory Redding, Mt Cody, Ngata, Pryce as the D line, and put Suggs, JJ, and Ray at LB. Kruger hasnt proven anything yet, and i think Suggs would just get more sacks as an OLB than a DE, and he's already put in so much effort why jerk him around. but im just picking hairs here

[justifythegame]

[quote name='JoeyFlex5' date='24 June 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1277438368' post='426185']
last year greg mattison was no type of coach for a 3-4, he lets his players sit back and wait for the play to come to them, which just doesnt work in a 3-4... its a 3 man rush... last year we had 3-4 players and a 4-3 style coach, but i feel like now we have the full personell for a 4-3. sure mattison is supposed to be more aggressive and putting an emphasis on pass rush this season, but i feel like with this draft, were built perfect for a 4-3. remember sam adams and goose? thats ngata and mt. cody. suggs was an elite pass rusher as a 4-3 DE, and he just cant produce the same way as an OLB. suggs at 6'3" 260, only has 10 lbs on sergio kindle, who DID play DE in college, not OLB, with a extra 10 lbs on kindle he could be a spitting image of suggs as a DE, and with the new wall we got in the middle they would just wreak havoc. ray is ray, and let him do what he does in the middle, and if harbs thinks its necessary, put a athlete in there on 3rd down in the middle, t-good is exceptionally fast at linebacker and could excel in coverage. every linebacker on our roster could play OLB in a 4-3. i just feel like if our biggest problem on defense is pass rush, this could possibly provide a NATURAL pass rush without the exotic blitz packages(that greg mattison doesnt bring to the table) that is almost required to get pass rush in a 3-4. obviously we have the versatility in our players to break out the 3-4 when its necessary(like against the colts, since peyton manning loves to make mistakes against the 3-4, including us) and mix it up here and there, but i wanna know does anyone else agree that a base 4-3 would help us alot more.
[/quote]

You should check some things first.

Suggs isn't 260, thats what he was back when he started his carreer. He is more like 280, and with the way he sits back an relaxes every offseason, skips workouts and gains weight, he will probably show up this year with an additional 10 lbs and even slower (if thats at all possible with how slow and out of shape he was last year). Suggs is hardly an elite OLB, and nor is he an elite DE. If you move him to DE permanently, it had to justify the 60 million we gave him since it was given because if his "versatility".

Did Suggs ever play in a 4-3? I think you should double check that. I don't know what you're saying Suggs can't produce in a 3-4, because he has spent all of his carreer or at least most of it in a 3-4.

Right now we have invested too much in the 3-4 to switch to a 4-3. We have drafted linebackers who could play in the middle, not outside. We have drafted projects players early like Kruger, who is pushing 280 now to make the move to a 3-4 DE. We would be left with no 4-3 OLBs either. We picked up Cody because he is a NT. If we had 2 DTs, i'm not sure we would want both of them to be 2 huge NTs. There is a reason why teams have built their defenses a particular way. We can't do everything the same way as in 2000 and be successful in todays NFL.

Its much easier to fire Harbaugh's family friend Mattison and get a qualified 3-4 DC than to make the switch you're proposing imo.