For The Flacco Vs. Ryan Debaters

[JEEPercreepermd]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='16 June 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1276697982' post='422230']
Unless you're Jamarcuss Russell
[/quote]
OR KYLE BOLLER

[lowrider]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='16 June 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1276697982' post='422230']
Unless you're Jamarcuss Russell
[/quote]
Jamercus Russell... That guy. In all fairness he went to the Black Hole (aka the Raiders). Where talented players go and are never heard of again...

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='lowrider' date='16 June 2010 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1276698303' post='422234']
Jamercus Russell... That guy. In all fairness he went to the Black Hole (aka the Raiders). Where talented players go and are never heard of again...
[/quote]
You're right, but I could have told them that he was going to be a bust. I remember watching the draft that year and saying to myself he is going to be a bust.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='15 June 2010 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1276626167' post='421951']
You're right but dumping it off to your running back will help your completion percentage.
[/quote]

So you're saying completions are bad? Throwing to available receivers, regardless of position, isn't a bad thing. Are you inferring Joe can't hit wide receivers?

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='16 June 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1276712175' post='422355']
So you're saying completions are bad? Throwing to available receivers, regardless of position, isn't a bad thing. Are you inferring Joe can't hit wide receivers?
[/quote]
No I am saying his completion percentage is higher because he was dumping the ball off to his running back. I never said he couldn't get the ball to his receiver.

[JO_75]

Let's just end this... all that matters are wins and playoff appearances.

2008:

Flacco; Regular Season: 11-5
Ryan; Regular Season: 11-5

EVEN

Post-Season:
Flacco; Post Season Record: 2-1
Ryan; Post Season Record: 0-1

2009:
Flacco; Regular Season: 9-7
Ryan; Regular Season: 9-7

EVEN(AGAIN!)

Post Season:
Flacco; Post Season Record: 1-1
Ryan; No Appearance so his stands at 0-1

2 Years Combined:

Regular Season they are both dead even with same amount of wins both years, but the post season Joe gets the edge with a 3-2 Record. Matt gets a chance to show it come November(if he beats Joe head to head) and this season if he can the Falcons back to the playoffs.

[JohnJohnson]

You're basically saying that the dump offs are easier passes that should be completed. That's why I showed you the clip from the Steelers game, to show that not all of them were. But there is no question that Rice bolstered Flacco's completion percentage and yards with his great catching and ability to get YAC. However, that can't be used against Flacco. He went to his best option, and it often worked. Mason had another 1,000 yard season, but I just don't think the confidence was there between Flacco and the other receivers.

Everyone is acting like the match up between the Falcons and Ravens will determine who the better QB is. I think that they will both have great careers, so this debate may continue long into the future.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='JO_75' date='17 June 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1276747415' post='422615']
Let's just end this... all that matters are wins and playoff appearances.
[/quote]

Sorry, that's just not how it works. Peyton Manning went 3-13 in his rookie season...

[H8R]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' date='17 June 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1276747712' post='422618']
Sorry, that's just not how it works. Peyton Manning went 3-13 in his rookie season...
[/quote]



OK, but the point you're missing is that you only judge QB's off of what they've done.... At that point in his career, Peyton didn't do much. even still, you might say he is the greatest Regular Season QB of all-times but not the greatest at winning the big one.

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='JO_75' date='17 June 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1276747415' post='422615']
Let's just end this... all that matters are wins and playoff appearances.

2008:

Flacco; Regular Season: 11-5
Ryan; Regular Season: 11-5

EVEN

Post-Season:
Flacco; Post Season Record: 2-1
Ryan; Post Season Record: 0-1

2009:
Flacco; Regular Season: 9-7
Ryan; Regular Season: 9-7

EVEN(AGAIN!)

Post Season:
Flacco; Post Season Record: 1-1
Ryan; No Appearance so his stands at 0-1

2 Years Combined:

Regular Season they are both dead even with same amount of wins both years, but the post season Joe gets the edge with a 3-2 Record. Matt gets a chance to show it come November(if he beats Joe head to head) and this season if he can the Falcons back to the playoffs.
[/quote]
We both know that Joe doesn't have to do as much to win games as Ryan. Your team had the 3rd rated defense. I keep hearing how many weapons Ryan has around him, but your team defense helps out a lot. Especially in the playoffs. I watched your team both years and I noticed that when you won your games your defense dominated.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='H8R' date='17 June 2010 - 07:34 AM' timestamp='1276774475' post='422682']
OK, but the point you're missing is that you only judge QB's off of what they've done.... At that point in his career, Peyton didn't do much. even still, you might say he is the greatest Regular Season QB of all-times but not the greatest at winning the big one.
[/quote]

What's the point of a 2 year verdict on who's better?

[berad]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='17 June 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1276781430' post='422708']
We both know that Joe doesn't have to do as much to win games as Ryan. Your team had the 3rd rated defense. I keep hearing how many weapons Ryan has around him, but your team defense helps out a lot. Especially in the playoffs. I watched your team both years and I noticed that when you won your games your defense dominated.
[/quote]

There are a few games you need to take note of...

[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008110203/2008/REG9/ravens@browns#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Browns[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122000/2008/REG16/ravens@cowboys#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Cowboys[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009091301/2009/REG1/chiefs@ravens"]Chiefs @ Ravens[/url]
and [url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009092013/2009/REG2/ravens@chargers"]Ravens @ Chargers[/url]

Those are all games in which our defense/ST failed us and our offense was relied upon to win the game. Those teams scored an average of about 25 points/game on us yet Joe Flacco and the Ravens offense won the game. Joe played a crucial part in winning those games, especially with his weak receiving options. I hate hearing how 'Flacco only wins because of the Ravens defense' - I can guarantee you that's not true, Kyle Boller is exhibit A.

[berad]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' date='17 June 2010 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1276786032' post='422749']
What's the point of a 2 year verdict on who's better?
[/quote]

I agree, it's kind of silly. No matter what we, the fans, 'decide' the players will prove who is better on the field. And, really, after two years, neither QB has realized their full potential.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='berad' date='17 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1276786345' post='422752']
There are a few games you need to take note of...

[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008110203/2008/REG9/ravens@browns#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Browns[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122000/2008/REG16/ravens@cowboys#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Cowboys[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009091301/2009/REG1/chiefs@ravens"]Chiefs @ Ravens[/url]
and [url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009092013/2009/REG2/ravens@chargers"]Ravens @ Chargers[/url]

Those are all games in which our defense/ST failed us and our offense was relied upon to win the game. Those teams scored an average of about 25 points/game on us yet Joe Flacco and the Ravens offense won the game. Joe played a crucial part in winning those games, especially with his weak receiving options. I hate hearing how 'Flacco only wins because of the Ravens defense' - I can guarantee you that's not true, Kyle Boller is exhibit A.
[/quote]

The Ravens weren't able to win the game but you can add the Vikings game to that list of games where Joe showed off what he can do.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='17 June 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1276787122' post='422759']
The Ravens weren't able to win the game but you can add the Vikings game to that list of games where Joe showed off what he can do.
[/quote]

Yeah, the only reason I didn't was because of the loss. You can look at the game when Pittsburgh came to Baltimore in '09, as well. Joe Flacco put up some impressive numbers in that game against a great defense (albeit without Polamalu).

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='berad' date='17 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1276786345' post='422752']
There are a few games you need to take note of...

[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008110203/2008/REG9/ravens@browns#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Browns[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122000/2008/REG16/ravens@cowboys#tab:recap"]Ravens @ Cowboys[/url]
[url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009091301/2009/REG1/chiefs@ravens"]Chiefs @ Ravens[/url]
and [url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009092013/2009/REG2/ravens@chargers"]Ravens @ Chargers[/url]

Those are all games in which our defense/ST failed us and our offense was relied upon to win the game. Those teams scored an average of about 25 points/game on us yet Joe Flacco and the Ravens offense won the game. Joe played a crucial part in winning those games, especially with his weak receiving options. I hate hearing how 'Flacco only wins because of the Ravens defense' - I can guarantee you that's not true, Kyle Boller is exhibit A.
[/quote]

But... But... Ryan is awesome'er!

I'm kidding, of course. People who are for one player or another are going to keep squinting their eyes until what they see is what they want to see. This is particularly true here, with Matt Ryan.

[JO_75]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='17 June 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1276781430' post='422708']
[b]We both know that Joe doesn't have to do as much to win games as Ryan. Your team had the 3rd rated defense.[/b] [b]I keep hearing how many weapons Ryan has around him, but your team defense helps out a lot.[/b] [b]Especially in the playoffs. [/b]I watched your team both years and I noticed that when you won your games your defense dominated.
[/quote]

Your right Joe don't have to do much because of our defense... but it's called having a balanced team.

What does how many weapons around Ryan have to do with our defense? Ryan had better weapons around him than Flacco in his first two years which means Ryan should have put up way better numbers because of having Roddy White, Turner, Jenkins and Tony Gonzalez. Flacco had Mason as his primary target for 2 years, now Flacco has Anquan Boldin, Todd Heap, Dennis Pitta, Ed Dickson, Donte Stallworth and Mason and has the weapons around him.

Playoffs? Sure granted the 2008 run to the AFC Championship was on defense, and Joe didn't have to do much but manage the game, fast forward to last year and our offense walked all over NE. Yes defense helped by shutting down Brady but that was the most balanced the Ravens have ever been.

[H8R]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' date='17 June 2010 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1276786032' post='422749']
What's the point of a 2 year verdict on who's better?
[/quote]


Unless you didn't know, the MEDIA has compared them since draft day.... The fans have compared then since draft day... Why would you not judge them? Scrutiny and judgement are big part in this world and the NFL is no exception. if judegement weren't supposed to happennn Why HAVE STATS? Why have the ProBowl? Most players are judged on performance and paid accordingly. I never once said it was the final verdict.... Comparing over a period of time is just that comparing.

[H8R]

[quote name='JO_75' date='17 June 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1276790719' post='422803']
Your right Joe don't have to do much because of our defense... but it's called having a balanced team.

What does how many weapons around Ryan have to do with our defense? Ryan had better weapons around him than Flacco in his first two years which means Ryan should have put up way better numbers because of having Roddy White, Turner, Jenkins and Tony Gonzalez. Flacco had Mason as his primary target for 2 years, now Flacco has Anquan Boldin, Todd Heap, Dennis Pitta, Ed Dickson, Donte Stallworth and Mason and has the weapons around him.

Playoffs? Sure granted the 2008 run to the AFC Championship was on defense, and Joe didn't have to do much but manage the game, fast forward to last year and our offense walked all over NE. Yes defense helped by shutting down Brady but that was the most balanced the Ravens have ever been.
[/quote]

balanced? we ran the ball 37 times...

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='16 June 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1276745605' post='422607']
No I am saying his completion percentage is higher because he was dumping the ball off to his running back. I never said he couldn't get the ball to his receiver.
[/quote]

So Joe's throwing shorter passes? See, throwing to a running back is not necessarily "dumping off" What was Joe's Yards Per Attempt versus Ryan's in 2009?

Joe Flacco: 7.2 yards per attempt
Matt Ryan: 6.5 yards per attempt

The Yards Per Completion (as opposed to Yards Per Attempt) for each player:

Joe Flacco: 11.46 yards per completion
Matt Ryan: 11.08 yards per completion

See, he's not 'dumping off' as you claim. Even if he's throwing to running backs, they're not backfield dump-offs. They're actual routes. You can't assume because a running back catches a ball it's a dump, especially in the Ravens' offense. I know you want to believe in the phantom dump-off, but it's just not true.

Sure, it happened some, but not so much as to be able to hang a "Matt Ryan > Joe Flacco" sign on it.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='H8R' date='17 June 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1276791777' post='422814']
Unless you didn't know, the MEDIA has compared them since draft day.... The fans have compared then since draft day... Why would you not judge them? Scrutiny and judgement are big part in this world and the NFL is no exception. if judegement weren't supposed to happennn Why HAVE STATS? Why have the ProBowl? Most players are judged on performance and paid accordingly. I never once said it was the final verdict.... Comparing over a period of time is just that comparing.
[/quote]

Well I just think it's hard to judge two people in different situations. They may both end up being very good, and this debate could continue for years. You said "all that matters are wins," so I pointed out that if you judged all QBs that way, you would miss things. Other stats can be more telling, and I think Flacco will explode this year. But I've heard the ridiculous argument that he's bad in the postseason, based on stats. Just like the argument that Manning is a choker, it's a misuse of statistics.

[ellicottraven]

I just hope Joe does not read these forums often. Just the thought of the kind of pressure he must feel with the expectations of us fans scares the living daylights out of me! I only hope he handles the scrutiny and pressure well.
This year by all accounts will tell us if Joe is elite. With regard to the Ryan comparisons, if Joe were not sacked as many times as he was, his numbers would be substantially better than Ryan's. However, a QB ability to avoid sacks also comprises how good a QB really is... eg: Brady, Manning, etc.
Hopefully Zorn working with Joe to improve his mobility inside the pocket will eliminate most of these sacks and if you couple that with the new targets he has, it is elite QB all the way!!!

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='17 June 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1276790138' post='422798']
But... But... Ryan is awesome'er!

I'm kidding, of course. People who are for one player or another are going to keep squinting their eyes until what they see is what they want to see. This is particularly true here, with Matt Ryan.
[/quote]
But..But.. you need to read my comments before getting sarcastic.

[Brendan Ayres]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='23 June 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1277328845' post='425240']
But..But.. you need to read my comments before getting sarcastic.
[/quote]

All he's saying is "flip a coin." You won't convince anyone in here that Ryan is the better QB, just as no one in this forum will ever convince you that Flacco is better.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='17 June 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1276781430' post='422708']
We both know that Joe doesn't have to do as much to win games as Ryan. Your team had the 3rd rated defense. I keep hearing how many weapons Ryan has around him, but your team defense helps out a lot. Especially in the playoffs. I watched your team both years and I noticed that when you won your games your defense dominated.
[/quote]

You keep hearing about the weapons Ryan had around him because he had weapons around him. Come back at the end of 2010 and pick Ryan vs. Flacco fights then.

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Brendan Ayres' date='23 June 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1277329197' post='425241']
All he's saying is "flip a coin." You won't convince anyone in here that Ryan is the better QB, just as no one in this forum will ever convince you that Flacco is better.
[/quote]
I was never trying to convince anybody on here that Ryan is better just having a debate.

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='23 June 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1277332278' post='425284']
You keep hearing about the weapons Ryan had around him because he had weapons around him. Come back at the end of 2010 and pick Ryan vs. Flacco fights then.
[/quote]
I never started a fight, I am debating on here. I have been here about 2 years and I never started anything and there are a few people on this board that can testify for me, you're the one taking this personal not me. If you don't want to talk football then I have nothing more to say to you.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='23 June 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1277339745' post='425384']
I never started a fight, I am debating on here. I have been here about 2 years and I never started anything and there are a few people on this board that can testify for me, you're the one taking this personal not me. If you don't want to talk football then I have nothing more to say to you.
[/quote]
I got it....they both suck and both teams are doomed...done!

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='#1falconfan' date='23 June 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1277339745' post='425384']
I never started a fight, I am debating on here. I have been here about 2 years and I never started anything and there are a few people on this board that can testify for me, you're the one taking this personal not me. If you don't want to talk football then I have nothing more to say to you.
[/quote]

Feel free to provide some data supporting your opinions. I'm not sure what you feel you will accomplish by trying to convince the Ravens board Ryan is better. Do you also go to England pubs and start yelling 'USA! USA! USA!' in the hopes that they'll agree our soccer team is better? I know you think Flacco has it so easy, and Ryan's overcome adversity... blah, blah, blah.

I just said, pretty clearly, come back at the end of 2010 and start your Ryan loving then. I don't think you'll have anything to say once the 2010 campaign is said and done. Ryan took a turn for the worse in 2009 compared to his 2008 campaign. He has a lower QB rating for his career and had a poor 2009 compared to Flacco.

This year Flacco will perform better than the past two, and significantly so. Are you convinced Ryan will make the same leap? I'm not. All of these "This Guy vs. That Guy" threads are silliness in progress. What's amazing to me is they have people saying, '[i]How dare you think Ray Rice is better than X?[/i]' or '[i]The only reason Flacco is better than this guy is because of Y[/i]'... Really? I mean, really?

[quote name='1/28/01' date='23 June 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1277342339' post='425404']
I got it....they both suck and both teams are doomed...done!
[/quote]

Agreed. That's as good as '[i]Some guy is better than this or that Raven[/i]' threads. +1

[#1falconfan]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='23 June 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1277342952' post='425408']
Feel free to provide some data supporting your opinions. I'm not sure what you feel you will accomplish by trying to convince the Ravens board Ryan is better. Do you also go to England pubs and start yelling 'USA! USA! USA!' in the hopes that they'll agree our soccer team is better? I know you think Flacco has it so easy, and Ryan's overcome adversity... blah, blah, blah.

I just said, pretty clearly, come back at the end of 2010 and start your Ryan loving then. I don't think you'll have anything to say once the 2010 campaign is said and done. Ryan took a turn for the worse in 2009 compared to his 2008 campaign. He has a lower QB rating for his career and had a poor 2009 compared to Flacco.

This year Flacco will perform better than the past two, and significantly so. Are you convinced Ryan will make the same leap? I'm not. All of these "This Guy vs. That Guy" threads are silliness in progress. What's amazing to me is they have people saying, '[i]How dare you think Ray Rice is better than X?[/i]' or '[i]The only reason Flacco is better than this guy is because of Y[/i]'... Really? I mean, really?



Agreed. That's as good as '[i]Some guy is better than this or that Raven[/i]' threads. +1
[/quote]
I swear you have the worst reading comprehension skills on here so maybe I need to put repeat myself again. I never said Ryan is better and I am not trying to convince anybody on here that Ryan is better, just having a debate. Like I said before you cannot even compare their stats because Ryan missed a few games. I will say this again I never said Ryan is better and I am not trying to convince anybody on here that Ryan is better, just having a debate, just in case you didn't get it the first 50 times.