For The Flacco Vs. Ryan Debaters

[Purple Punishment]

Everyone loves to post up stats and see who has improved better and whatnot. Here is something for everyone to see

http://thepurplechaos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flaccovsryan.jpg

[img]http://thepurplechaos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flaccovsryan.jpg[/img]

[berad]

Oooh, color coordinated and everything! Very cool!

The one stat I find most interesting is that Flacco has been sacked nearly twice as much as Ryan yet posted better statistics in nearly all statistical categories!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='berad' date='08 June 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1276053288' post='419784']
Oooh, color coordinated and everything! Very cool!

[b]The one stat I find most interesting is that Flacco has been sacked nearly twice as much as Ryan yet posted better statistics in nearly all statistical categories![/b]
[/quote]

Agreed. Speaks to the toughness of Joe. With the new weapons and his own development, Joe won't have to hold onto the ball as much and get sacked as much.

[Romo Ravens]

Yea, I was about to say the same thing about Flacco being sacked so much. With Gaither and Oher, why?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1276056188' post='419809']
Yea, I was about to say the same thing about Flacco being sacked so much. With Gaither and Oher, why?
[/quote]

Good pass protection can only go so far. WRs haven't got open the past two seasons.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 June 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1276056481' post='419815']
Good pass protection can only go so far. WRs haven't got open the past two seasons.
[/quote]

That's an eye opening number to be honest. Well it was in 2008, and Willie was way past his prime. We didn't have Oher also, plus that was the pre-Rice era where Flacco would dump it off all the time. So glad we got Q plus Stallworth though. Should do wonders for Flacco.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1276056624' post='419817']
That's an eye opening number to be honest. Well it was in 2008, and Willie was way past his prime. We didn't have Oher also, plus that was the pre-Rice era where Flacco would dump it off all the time. So glad we got Q plus Stallworth though. Should do wonders for Flacco.
[/quote]

Funnily, Joe was actually sacked more this year than last.

Q and Stallworth will help and I'm hoping the young TEs come along quickly too.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 June 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1276056745' post='419822']
Funnily, Joe was actually sacked more this year than last.

Q and Stallworth will help and I'm hoping the young TEs come along quickly too.
[/quote]

Oops I read it wrong for a moment. I didn't even notice that. I'm out of reasons trying to defend our offensive line haha. Either way, I see everything coming together this year.

Off topic, but if I see a Ravens matchup where we only put up three points, I'll lose it.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1276056918' post='419824']
Oops I read it wrong for a moment. I didn't even notice that. I'm out of reasons trying to defend our offensive line haha. Either way, I see everything coming together this year.

[b]Off topic, but if I see a Ravens matchup where we only put up three points, I'll lose it.[/b]
[/quote]

The days of anemic offensive performances should really be over.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='09 June 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1276057754' post='419832']
The days of anemic offensive performances should really be over.
[/quote]

Fingers crossed.

In his third year in San Diego, Cameron's offense made significant strides, [i](namely a jump from 16th in points/game to 3rd)[/i] hopefully we see the trend continue here.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='berad' date='09 June 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1276058513' post='419834']
Fingers crossed.

In his third year in San Diego, Cameron's offense made significant strides, [i](namely a jump from 16th in points/game to 3rd)[/i] hopefully we see the trend continue here.
[/quote]

'04 was also Drew Brees' 3rd year as a starter. Guess whose going into their 3rd year as a starter?

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='09 June 2010 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1276056745' post='419822']
Funnily, Joe was actually sacked more this year than last.

Q and Stallworth will help and I'm hoping the young TEs come along quickly too.
[/quote]

I think he ate more sacks due to the hip/leg/knee issue.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='09 June 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1276059520' post='419844']
I think he ate more sacks due to the hip/leg/knee issue.
[/quote]

Yep. The injuries noticeably hurt his drop-back and pocket mobility.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='09 June 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1276059450' post='419842']
'04 was also Drew Brees' 3rd year as a starter. Guess whose going into their 3rd year as a starter?
[/quote]

I'm getting giddy already!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='berad' date='09 June 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1276059828' post='419846']
I'm getting giddy already!
[/quote]

So am I. This offense has the potential to do big things.

[Purple Punishment]

It is truly amazing that in just 2 years time we have come from a stagnant offense to an on the verge powerhouse. Just have to hope these guys are gelling with good chemistry

[darklight1216]

But, but, but Flacco has a good defense. XD

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1276056188' post='419809']
Yea, I was about to say the same thing about Flacco being sacked so much. With Gaither and Oher, why?
[/quote]
Flacco dropped back to pass 75 more times in his second year and had only four more sacks. Of course, the Ravens were in the bottom half of the league in sacks allowed so there's definitely room for improvement, but it could have been worse.

It's not all the O-line's fault. Flacco had his moments too.

[Samari]

While Joey's sack numbers have gone up, consider this:

His sack numbers increased because he passed the ball more. His attempts increased 17% while his sacks increased 13%. Matt Ryan, on the other hand, increased his attempts 4% while his sacks increased 12%. So again, Joey wins.

[Rav'n Maniac]

What really jumps off the screen to me is Joe's number of sacks in comparison. It's almost twice as many as Ryan.

Is our line that bad, our receivers ability to get open that poor or a combination of both? Does Joe possess the pocket presence to feel the pressure coming?

I decided to research further and found Joe has 3x as many as Manning, 2x as many as Brady or Brees. Stafford's is a little higher though.

Wow, it just floors me that Joe has that many sacks. This is something that I hope the coaching staff takes a hard look at this season. There is great room for improvement here and must be addressed!

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I think the number of sacks is a comobo of the receivers failure to get open consistently and Flacco's biggest weakness (and maybe only weakness thus far): his decision making. The amount of receptions Rice received is an indicator of that as well. There were several times where openings presented themselves, albeit in small lanes or windows, and Flacco decided to check down. It is a confidence issue, not just in his ability to make the throws, but also confidence in the receivers to make the catch.

Even if he has the confidence to make the throw, if he is not confident in the receiver to make the catch, he is thinking there's a chance for it to be intercepted. Since his main job the first two seasons was to not turn the ball over, and manage the game, he went with the smart play that would gaurentee positive yardage as opposed to forcing the ball in for a possible incompletion or turnover. But, all of that thinking take time.... more time than any O-line can give on a consisten basis.

So, on the plays where the O-line couldn't hold up long enough for Flacco to go through his progessions (especially the plays where there was an opening and he decided against it) there wasn't enough time to see and execute the checkdown option, resulting in a sack. To the point of injuries, it definitely affected his mobility, but I think also the confidence level to make all the throws: leading to more of these situations of having to progress all the way and settle for the checkdown. Result: even more sacks.

Both problems will be settled this year. Flacco must know the caliber and number of weapons he has around him. The confidence in all the receivers to make the catches will be there, allowing him to exploit the full confidence in his abilities. He will greatly improve on his flaw, in that the combination of the two will drastically cut down his decision-making time. He will be able to work with the amount of time the O-line can provide him this year, and we will see a huge drop off in the number of sacks.

My prediciton: under 22 sacks this year, but more than 15. I also think we'll see a decrease in INT's with an increase in TDs. Somewhere in the ballpark of 26-30 TDs with 10 INT's.

[Flare]

Purple Pain posted a similar statsheet on AFMB and at first glance I didnt want to adress it with more than the usual "[i]Flacco's a Raven and Ryan's a Falcon so lets all get along and stop beating on dead horses[/i]" argument ([i]since Flacco/Ryan comparisons has been going since they were drafted[/i]).

But.. Im presenting some quotes from a discussion we had on AFMB boards ([i]dec. 2008[/i]), and lets take it from there. Here's hoping for a clean discussion:

[quote]After yet another week where Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco is up for ROW again, I wanted to take a closer look at the highlights for each of them. This isnt designed to diss either of them or showboat my homerism for Matt Ryan, but I really wanted to see what makes them standout the way they have in their rookie seasons.

Presentation from NFL.com:
- Flacco completed 17 of 25 passes for 149 yards and a touchdown as the Ravens defeated the Dallas Cowboys 33-24.
- Ryan completed 13 of 24 passes for 134 yards and a touchdown as the Falcons defeated the Minnesota Vikings 24-17.

When watching the highlights (for what its worth) of Joe Flacco some things stand out clearly:
- Joe Flacco extends plays by leaving the pocket quite often.
- He delivers accurate passes on the move (2 from the highlights were spot on).
- On more than 2 occasions, 1 being a TD pass, the reciever is waving his hands to get the pass thrown his way.
- Alot of completions come from comeback routes.
- It doesnt seem to me that he is 'selling' his fake handoffs to the back.
- Had a beautiful pass to Todd Heap in stride over the middle and in traffic (marquee play by both imo).
- Rushed for a first down in the 3rd quarter, ironically enough, coming off a fake handoff.
- He did this against the Cowboys, on their home turf.

Watching the highlights of Matt Ryan some things standout clearly:
- Matt Ryan seems to rely alot on the number of steps he gets back, seldomly leaving the pocket (which usually never collapses).
- His TD came from a shuffle pass to Jerious Norwood.
- Delivered an accurate pass to Finneran in stride on an out route after pressure from the Vikings right DE.
- After pressure from the Vikings right side, he scrambles to the right avoiding the sack and delivers an accurate pass to White, whom picks up a first down.
- Throws a pass to Jenkins on his backfoot, whom recieves it in stride covered by a Vikings DB and MLB, this near the two minute warning in the second quarter (marquee play by both imo).
- On a fake handoff to Turner the Vikings D stuff for the run, making it possible for White to recieve the pass down the middle for a first.
- On a second and goal in the third quarter he scrambles from the 12 yard line down to the one and fumbles in mid air. Blalock eventually gets the ball and TD ATL.
- He did this against the Vikings on their home turf.

They both share the ability to extend plays should the pocket collapse. They have a high accuracy when passing out of the pocket and on the move (this happens a bit more for Joe Flacco) and they are both able to put the zip on their passes and set em high where only their designated WR/TE can reach em.

[color="#FF0000"]Matt Ryan:
- seem to be more present in the pocket, and rely heavily on the dropback and counts, making it very seldom that his WR stand still when recieving the ball. He binds the opposing D to his handoffs, making the fakes ever so dangerous (Might be his area of expertice). (Time on progression and read number??)

Joe Flacco:
- scrambles alot, and does a gj on extending plays when the pocket collapses either by passin on the move or picking up a first down (might be area of expertice). Shows a tendency to deliver the pass when the WR/TE is already open and not before the cut. (Time on progression and read number??)[/color][/quote]
[quote]Ok this is purely from watching highlights and doesnt give an exact general time on their release, but its what I got to work from:

Joe Flacco highlights show 9 throws:
1,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5 - the time he uses on his dropback and pass is approximately 3.6 seconds.

Matt Ryan highlights show 7 throws:
1,1,2,2,3,3,4 - the time he uses on his dropback and pass is approximately 2.3 seconds.

There is an uneven number of throws to derive data from, and given the different nature of plays this isnt a bulletproof way of measuring. But given what it is, Matt Ryan uses more than a second less to dropback and release his pass, which coexists perfectly with the notion that Joe Flacco scrambles alot more than Ryan, thus extending the play and time used to pass.

Dont know if its a positive thing though. [/quote]

My question would be, did Flacco improve on the areas thats mentioned in this post, during the 2009 season??

Note: the red text isnt 100% objective, since I dont know how Flacco is supposed to run the Ravens offensive system.

[DevilsLuck]

I'm guessing the reason Flacco was sacked so much last year was one: because he really only had Rice and Mason to throw to most the time. Two: Gaither hasn't exactly been giving it his all in the season or off-season. And well that's really it. P.S. Gaither could've still been Left Tackle if he had more heart. The main reason they moved Oher to Left Tackle wasn't because he was better than Gaither in my opinion it was that he tried his hardest every down. He has more heart.

[DrMoonTooth]

Interesting data. The 3.6 seconds Flacco takes (on average) to throw could also be pointing to his decision making in 2008, which was slow. Now obviously, to his credit, when you have the receivers he did in 2008 (and 2009), your decision making is going to be slow. It's also only one game, and the amount of throws is uneven; my point being that there are too many variables out there to take away too much from that one analysis.

[Flare]

[quote name='DrMoonTooth' date='09 June 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1276098506' post='419942']
Interesting data. The 3.6 seconds Flacco takes (on average) to throw could also be pointing to his decision making in 2008, which was slow. Now obviously, to his credit, when you have the receivers he did in 2008 (and 2009), your decision making is going to be slow. [b]It's also only one game, and the amount of throws is uneven; my point being that there are too many variables out there to take away too much from that one analysis.[/b]
[/quote]
I agree completely. In all honesty, I havent paid close attention to eithers time from snap to release since that very post, but it could be interesting to see how they both developed in 2009. But alas, we will probs never see it since Im not getting paid to do so hehe.

[thrash5]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='09 June 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1276077053' post='419887']
I think the number of sacks is a comobo of the receivers failure to get open consistently and Flacco's biggest weakness (and maybe only weakness thus far): his decision making. The amount of receptions Rice received is an indicator of that as well. There were several times where openings presented themselves, albeit in small lanes or windows, and Flacco decided to check down. It is a confidence issue, not just in his ability to make the throws, but also confidence in the receivers to make the catch.

Even if he has the confidence to make the throw, if he is not confident in the receiver to make the catch, he is thinking there's a chance for it to be intercepted. Since his main job the first two seasons was to not turn the ball over, and manage the game, he went with the smart play that would gaurentee positive yardage as opposed to forcing the ball in for a possible incompletion or turnover. But, all of that thinking take time.... more time than any O-line can give on a consisten basis.

So, on the plays where the O-line couldn't hold up long enough for Flacco to go through his progessions (especially the plays where there was an opening and he decided against it) there wasn't enough time to see and execute the checkdown option, resulting in a sack. To the point of injuries, it definitely affected his mobility, but I think also the confidence level to make all the throws: leading to more of these situations of having to progress all the way and settle for the checkdown. Result: even more sacks.

Both problems will be settled this year. Flacco must know the caliber and number of weapons he has around him. The confidence in all the receivers to make the catches will be there, allowing him to exploit the full confidence in his abilities. He will greatly improve on his flaw, in that the combination of the two will drastically cut down his decision-making time. He will be able to work with the amount of time the O-line can provide him this year, and we will see a huge drop off in the number of sacks.

My prediciton: under 22 sacks this year, but more than 15. I also think we'll see a decrease in INT's with an increase in TDs. Somewhere in the ballpark of 26-30 TDs with 10 INT's.
[/quote]

that sounds great cant wait for football season

[Romo Ravens]

Just the competition between Ryan and Flacco is what I love to see. It seems as if they'll forever be connected because of the draft.

I don't even think Flacco was supposed to go in the first, and he has just as much talent if not more than Ryan who was picked at number three. Both are franchise QB's, and both have so much talent, but honestly, I think Flacco has the edge. I'm not just saying that because I love my team, but if Flacco just worked on his accuracy, he could be in the top echelon of QB's in this league. If I was from the outside looking in, I would think the same way.

[Flare]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1276114446' post='420100']
Just the competition between Ryan and Flacco is what I love to see. It seems as if they'll forever be connected because of the draft.

I don't even think Flacco was supposed to go in the first, and he has just as much talent if not more than Ryan who was picked at number three. Both are franchise QB's, and both have so much talent, but honestly, I think Flacco has the edge. I'm not just saying that because I love my team, but [b]if Flacco just worked on his accuracy[/b], he could be in the top echelon of QB's in this league. If I was from the outside looking in, I would think the same way.
[/quote]
Well I am looking from the outside in, and I honestly never saw his accuracy as an issue. If I was suppose to put a finger on where he should improve it would be the speed of his progressions.

[Ravens Lover]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 June 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1276053620' post='419787']
Agreed. Speaks to the toughness of Joe. With the new weapons and his own development, Joe won't have to hold onto the ball as much and get sacked as much.
[/quote]

Agree, I can't wait to see what Joe will be able to do with his new weapons

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' date='09 June 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1276114446' post='420100']
Just the competition between Ryan and Flacco is what I love to see. It seems as if they'll forever be connected because of the draft.

I don't even think Flacco was supposed to go in the first, and he has just as much talent if not more than Ryan who was picked at number three. Both are franchise QB's, and both have so much talent, but honestly, I think Flacco has the edge. I'm not just saying that because I love my team, but if Flacco just worked on his accuracy, he could be in the top echelon of QB's in this league. If I was from the outside looking in, I would think the same way.
[/quote]

Flacco was actually considered a mid-first, high-second, but the closer the draft came the higher his stock went (especially after workouts). He was a solid first round pick for those 'in the know'.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='10 June 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1276197506' post='420622']
Flacco was actually considered a mid-first, high-second, but the closer the draft came the higher his stock went (especially after workouts). He was a solid first round pick for those 'in the know'.
[/quote]

Danke.

I wasn't paying attention to him that year, because in all honesty, I wanted us to trade from 8 to 3 to pick up, uhhh (you know who).

Obviously I'm happy about the decision though.