Clayton Vs. Crayton

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='31 May 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1275327367' post='416138']
first off, i dont know that anyone has said that clayton sucks. i actually like the guy and dont know that his lack of production is entirely his fault.

about hypotheticals, and "daydreaming".... everything we discuss is a hypothetical. until you become a member of the front office, or make the team everything you do or say as a fan is hypothetical. look at every post and every thread. "which defense is better" "who should return kicks" "what should the nickname be" "who will make the team"... even the news articles about "flacco finding a voice", "mcclain 4rb", "stallworth looks good" anything you comment about any of it will be hypothetical bc we are not there. you dont know, we're talking about abstract things, or things that will happen in the future. even if we discuss facts they are given to us second-hand by a reporter whom we must trust is reporting accurately. so to scoff at others and their "hypothetical daydreams" is pretty silly considering its impossible to post something on a fansite that isnt hypothetical.

bc IF no one gets injured, everyone plays according to their previous stats, no one has a serious drop off, the team chemistry doesnt turn well then this D will be better. or IF this guy performs to his ability, starters dont go down... this guy will make the team. or IF this reporter is telling the truth than flacco should be a leader this year.... so you see everything we talk about has big IF's surrounding it so its ALL hypothetical. arguing that youve said something non-hypothetical or that isnt just a fanatical "daydream" (you are just a fan, and though you may think you know more but its the future and impossible to know anything) and if you know the future more than anyone else then please let me know bc you have a magical gift for talking about future, unknowable things in a definite way.

sorry if that came off angry, but it was a completely pompous, and ridiculous comment.
[/quote]
well angry guy thanks for the lesson in journalism theory... comments like crayton would blow away claytons numbers if he had as many starts and targets is a hypothetical. comments like so we can try out ppl that couldnt beat him on their best day (our practice squad [excluding reed of course, still need to see him play]) or all the others have been here for years and who has been able to beat clayton out for his job yet? is fact based considering it has happened D.Will down has practiced and couldnt beat out clayton but on the other hand comments like they only start clayton because he was one of OZ first rounders and he likes to stand by his picks is a hypothetical but then again a comment like i have heard the claton sucks and clayton sucks compaired to this guy arguments for the better part of 2 years now and weather the argument is correct or not clayton is still here is based on fact and i could testify to that from personal experience i could also do some digging and find posts if you like(wouldnt be hard just gotta look as far back as the pats game) just defensive because im getting a lil sick of it. you would too if you took the stance i have for the past 2 years. i mean he isnt the #2 anymore what more do people want

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='gilgamesh' date='28 May 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1275107657' post='415625']
If your main gripe with Clayton is his 2 million, then why would you trade for a guy making 2 million?
[/quote]
kinda makes alot of the arguments on this thread moot now dont it?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' date='01 June 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1275428882' post='416596']
I know he (Clayton) hasn't lived up to what we thought we were getting when we used a 1st round pick to acquire him...and I'm well aware the anger that he was subject to when he cost us the Pats game.
But is he really as bad as some of us sayhe is? i myself have bashed him over the past months...but I went back and watched a lot of the games from the past two years, and he's made a lot of clutch catches at key moments, and he's made plenty of plays. The statistics don't show it, but Clayton was a beast at time last year. He made some huge plays against Minnesota, had a great game vs. Pittsburg, and besides the major drops at NE, I didn't see many drops that were as costly, or as much his fault. So he hasn't impressed us to the level we wanted. As a slot receiver though, and with Mason and Boldin taking the brunt of defenses attention...[b]Clayton could easily come in as the 3rd or 4th option and make even more of an impact[/b]. I like Stallworth, and Washington was an asset making tough catches in the middle. I think Clayton could easily have a breakout year next year though, if he wins a spot during the offseason. And you gotta love his humble personlity. I dont care what Crayton has, I think Clayton is worth keeping a little longer.
[/quote]


im not getting on you for saying this, bc almost everyone has mentioned it (including myself several times) that clayton wasnt up to expectations as a starter but could be really good as a 3rd or 4th option. i agree... but the problem is i dont know how many 3 and 4 WR sets we're going to use. we are still a run first team, just now we have high-quality 1 and 2 receivers. i dont know that the 3rd WR is going to get an awful lot of touches, even less for the 4th. since we probably wont use the 1,2,3, and 4 WRs on the field at the same time, youd like to have the 3 and 4 guy be able to get on the field in other ways, i.e. special teams. to the thread, clayton may do that, crayton CAN do that.

also, the 3 and 4 WR (which i think we all are in agreement are the spots clayton or hypothetically crayton would be battling for) are insurance in case the #1 or 2 goes down to injury. that being said, we know clayton hasnt performed to expectations in that role, while crayton has accelled when given the chance as a starter. i think the fact that the #3, and especially the #4 in our offense are mainly going to be just insurance and not given a ton of looks in 4 WR sets.

since the #4 is most likely primarily insurance in case boldin mason or stallworth go down, it would be best if whoever the #4 is could get on the field as a returner. since crayton has had better numbers as a starter (albeit with less pressure, and on fewer occasions) and does contribute well as a returner who would be a better #4 for us, atleast for a year or two.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1275152853' post='415718']
being willing and being successful are two different things. crayton has been the primary returner and a good one at that...

secondly, i dont think clayton has anything on lock. this is just my opinion but i dont know that the ravens want to pay anyone $2 million to be a back up (which makes this whole thread somewhat meaningless if thats the case). he may be battling for the 3rd but if he doesnt get it over stallworth i dont know that the 4th will just be given to him. $2 million for a 4th WR is a pretty steep price, [b]especially for a guy who has no experience playing any other role[/b]
[/quote]
he has returned before and has a better average than stallworth also we pay other backups more than 2 mil both not hypothetical

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='01 June 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1275430533' post='416611']
kinda makes alot of the arguments on this thread moot now dont it?
[/quote]


not really, bc the money isnt really the main gripe. the assumption is we're stuck paying $2 million for our #4 receiver. if we're gonna spend that money, who would better earn it.

im going with the guy by the numbers would be better at filling in as a starter (the insurance argument) and also contributes as a returner instead of just sitting on the sideline. i think its almost a given that crayton would find his way on the field more than clayton can (unless he proves something as a returner which could very well happen, but at this point i have to go with what is known). players earn money by being on the field, so id feel just a little bit better paying the guy who's has more of a gaurentee to be on the field; therefore better earning that contract.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='01 June 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1275430786' post='416615']
he has returned before and has a better average than stallworth also we pay other backups more than 2 mil both not hypothetical
[/quote]


who are those backups? and what position are they playing? backups at certain positions (RB, lineman, LB, secondary) are rotating positions and are gaurenteed to see the field. WR, especially on our team, back ups may not get to see much of the field.

Chris Carr is the only backup in 2009 to make $2 mill or more ($3 mill) but is also our PR. backup at CB (ended up starting due to injuries) but a starter at a key spot on special teams.

[berad]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='01 June 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1275431867' post='416626']
who are those backups? and what position are they playing? backups at certain positions (RB, lineman, LB, secondary) are rotating positions and are gaurenteed to see the field. WR, especially on our team, back ups may not get to see much of the field.

Chris Carr is the only backup in 2009 to make $2 mill or more ($3 mill) but is also our PR. backup at CB (ended up starting due to injuries) but a starter at a key spot on special teams.
[/quote]

Willis McGahee and Trevor Pryce will be making $2+ million, I believe. But, as you said, they rotate.

In any case, why would the Ravens extend an offer to Mark Clayton if they did not want to sign him and have him on this team? Besides, Clayton is set to earn only $1.8 million, I'm not sure where the extra 200,000 dollars came from. [url="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=nfl&id=3150"](LINK)[/url]

PS - I'm not religious, but I'm [i]praying[/i] that Chris Carr will not be our punt returner!

[FerrariFan87]

Crayton wants to be the man, and he'd in all likelihood still be the 4th option here unless he beats out Stallworth, so bringing him in here makes no sense considering Clayton has developed a relationship with Joe and knows this offense inside and out.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='01 June 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1275429414' post='416598']
well angry guy thanks for the lesson in journalism theory... comments like crayton would blow away claytons numbers if he had as many starts and targets is a hypothetical. comments like so we can try out ppl that couldnt beat him on their best day (our practice squad [excluding reed of course, still need to see him play]) or all the others have been here for years and who has been able to beat clayton out for his job yet? is fact based considering it has happened D.Will down has practiced and couldnt beat out clayton but on the other hand comments like they only start clayton because he was one of OZ first rounders and he likes to stand by his picks is a hypothetical but then again a comment like i have heard the claton sucks and clayton sucks compaired to this guy arguments for the better part of 2 years now and weather the argument is correct or not clayton is still here is based on fact and i could testify to that from personal experience i could also do some digging and find posts if you like(wouldnt be hard just gotta look as far back as the pats game) just defensive because im getting a lil sick of it. you would too if you took the stance i have for the past 2 years. i mean he isnt the #2 anymore what more do people want
[/quote]


the fact that other guys couldnt beat them on their best day IS hypothetical... bc other that DWILL most of the guys are very young and improving, maybe even enough in one year to take out clayton. plus you have to look at worth, if a guy is as good as clayton or even close, makes less money, and is younger he has more worth. i coach soccer and if i have two players of near equal skill, most times i play the younger bc theres more potential to get better. if theyre equal now, in a year the younger most likely will continue to get better, while the older may have peaked.... that statement is hypothetical bc its not certain than any of the guys behind clayton has had their best day yet.

i do understand your frustration with the clayton haters... hes a raven and has been a serviceable number 2 without being a number 2 caliber player. hes had some great years, some great games, and what sticks is one or two bad plays in big situations. honestly, and it ticks me off too when i hear it, most of his criticism stems from the pats game last year which is an awful thing to do. you cannot judge a player on one bad play. so to that extent i feel for you...

but this thread was meant to be fun, and to kick around ideas and arguments for entertainment purposes. i just didnt like to see it getting emotional or people taking personal shots at posts/posters when it should have all remianed light-hearted and fun. thats what this stuff is for, bc none of us can make these sorts of decisions, and none of us really knows anything more than the next guy/gal

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

so i hope theres no ill will, or bad blood left... its just a hypothetical thread intended for fun. if it stopped being fun to anyone, that person should just ignore it bc anything said is not fact, and simply just some fans opinion which is no better or worse than the next one.

plus we're all fans of the same team, we should stick together in our love for this franchise... we're lucky to have one of the classiest franchises from top-to-bottom, so we should uphold that class as fans, especially in our deaings with eachother. respect the flock

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='01 June 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1275430676' post='416613']
im not getting on you for saying this, bc almost everyone has mentioned it (including myself several times) that clayton wasnt up to expectations as a starter but could be really good as a 3rd or 4th option. i agree... but the problem is i dont know how many 3 and 4 WR sets we're going to use. we are still a run first team, just now we have high-quality 1 and 2 receivers. i dont know that the 3rd WR is going to get an awful lot of touches, even less for the 4th. since we probably wont use the 1,2,3, and 4 WRs on the field at the same time, youd like to have the 3 and 4 guy be able to get on the field in other ways, i.e. special teams. to the thread, clayton may do that, crayton CAN do that.

also, the 3 and 4 WR (which i think we all are in agreement are the spots clayton or hypothetically crayton would be battling for) are insurance in case the #1 or 2 goes down to injury. that being said, we know clayton hasnt performed to expectations in that role, while crayton has accelled when given the chance as a starter. i think the fact that the #3, and especially the #4 in our offense are mainly going to be just insurance and not given a ton of looks in 4 WR sets.

since the #4 is most likely primarily insurance in case boldin mason or stallworth go down, it would be best if whoever the #4 is could get on the field as a returner. since crayton has had better numbers as a starter (albeit with less pressure, and on fewer occasions) and does contribute well as a returner who would be a better #4 for us, atleast for a year or two.
[/quote]
Valid points, i agree. But 3/4 Wr sets come in handy when you have 2 minutes to go in the 4th quarter and need some plays...I like having Clayton, someone who not only has shown big plays before, but also has a already established relationship with Flacco and the offense.
And I'm pretty sure Carr's still our man for returns, and Clayton said he's willing to participate in special teams. Crayton may have more experience, but I don't think that outweighs Clayton's usefullness if we are behind late in a game.
And Clayton might not be the ideal role for a starter, should one of our top two go down. But he's proficient, and he does make many a tough grab in ideal situations. I think he's just as good a back up as a Wr can be.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='01 June 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1275429414' post='416598']
comments like crayton would blow away claytons numbers if he had as many starts and targets is a hypothetical.
[/quote]

Actually, it's not really a hypothetical. Crayton has double the TD's that Clayton does, and nearly matches his yardage, all as a #3.
The TDs are already in Crayton's favor, and the yardage is inevitable, since there is so little difference in output.

[quote]
i mean he isnt the #2 anymore what more do people want
[/quote]


I think this thread was brought up simply to ponder ways to improve our team anyway possible.
It's like buying a car...you're going to spend $40k on it anyway, so you may as well spend the forty grand on a Mercedes rather than the Accord.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 June 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1275444248' post='416711']
It's like buying a car...you're going to spend $40k on it anyway, so you may as well spend the forty grand on a Mercedes rather than the Accord.
[/quote]
lol... im the guy that buys 4 used ford fiestas and some taco bell to celebrate

[Mahatma_Sloth]

yay ill be in B-More in 2 days [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/th_cancers.gif[/img] !!!! we can meet up and then we can have a beer [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/bananas.gif[/img]