Clayton Vs. Crayton

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Mark Clayton is due to make $2 million this coming season, but will be battling for a 4th or 5th WR position on the depth chart. At this point his role seems to be as insurance in case one of our top 3 misses time due to injury. However, $2 million is a steep price to pay for insurance, especially for a WR who has limited special teams experience and ability.

Patrick Crayton is in the exact same position with the Dallas Cowboys. With the draft of Dez Bryant he finds himself battling for a 4th or 5th position. He is also due to make $2 million this season, but is worried that he will be cut after training camp as the Cowboys are unwilling to pay the price. Crayton does however have special teams experience as a returner, a pretty successful one at that. His number last season were almost exactly the same as Roy Williams, but Williams is due to make almost $13 million making him the necessary choice to keep due to financial commitment. Crayton was trade bait during the draft, but since no deal went down he realizes he may be without a team after camp. He is demanding to be released so he has time to find a team.

Crayton wants to find a team, but a trade may be his only option. The Cowboys want an insurance policy and want to keep Crayton but would probably rather have a player who wants to be there. Would a straight up trade make sense??

We don't need any more recievers at this point, but insurance wouldn't hurt. Would you want to make a straight up trade to get Crayton? Would he be an upgrade over Clayton?

I don't know how I feel or what I would do, but I just read an article on Crayton's feelings about staying with the Cowboys and Clayton came to mind. Clayton isn't the most popular player and hasn't reached his 1st round potential. Again and again he has failed to meet expectations, but I still keep hope that maybe one day.... haha. I don't know, tell me what you think!! Debate.

(Please explain your answers using factual information, or using reliable sources... No "Well I like him, or no I don't like him...")

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I am sorry, let me specify. The trade would be Clayton for Crayton. The reason it came to mind is that the Cowboys stated that they did not want to simply release Crayton, but would part ways if a trade could be made. Clayton is an exact match as far as contract value, and may be something the Cowboys would be willing to do.

I don't know if it's is an upgrade for us, but was interested in seeing what you all think. Please feel free to let me know!

[gilgamesh]

If your main gripe with Clayton is his 2 million, then why would you trade for a guy making 2 million?

[flynismo]

Interesting question.

In theory, I think I would do it. Crayton can be very productive when given the chance. His special teams skills is a bonus.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='gilgamesh' date='28 May 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1275107657' post='415625']
If your main gripe with Clayton is his 2 million, then why would you trade for a guy making 2 million?
[/quote]


It's not my main gripe... I didn't mention even having gripes. The question is, if you're going to be stuck paying $2 million for a back up, you want the best and most versatile. I want to know people's opinions... would Crayton be an upgrade? I think his ability to return kicks is definitely an upside, but is he a better receiver?

But I want to know your opinion!

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='flynismo' date='28 May 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1275108182' post='415626']
Interesting question.

In theory, I think I would do it. Crayton can be very productive when given the chance. His special teams skills is a bonus.
[/quote]


Well he's available. He's willing, the Cowboys are willing, we'll have to see if the Ravens are interested. I agree if you're going to pay a guy $2 million you want him to be on the field. Clayton may not get there as we don't run many 4 or 5 wide out packages. Crayton is a returner, but has lost his job in Dallas to Dez. I think he would be happy returning kicks and as 4th on the depth chart at WR.

[bmore187]

I already posted something similiar entitled " Patrick Crayton and Ronnie Brown " anyway i suggested aquiring Crayton and got flamed for it

[flynismo]

[quote name='bmore187' date='29 May 2010 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1275114870' post='415647']
I suggested aquiring Crayton and got flamed for it
[/quote]

lol

[Ngata92NT]

When I account for Clayton's familiarity with the Raven's offense, including its key players (Flacco, Mason), it's apparent that Clayton is the better choice. I'm confident that we'd be better off with Clayton. He's produced as the 2nd WR. He's never been a clutch receiver but he's posted multiple hundred yard games. If he can do that at #2 than he should be even more efficient at the #3 spot where there is less pressure on him (assuming someone gets injured, I don't think we'll be seeing to many 4WR sets. You never know with Cam though).

With Crayton we have no idea what we're getting, we see that he can play well sometimes. But we don't know what he's like off the field or if he affects team chemistry. Clayton's a good guy and generally liked by teammates (from what I've heard). Why take a risk on Crayton?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='bmore187' date='29 May 2010 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1275114870' post='415647']
I already posted something similiar entitled " Patrick Crayton and Ronnie Brown " anyway i suggested aquiring Crayton and got flamed for it
[/quote]


My bad if I ripped your thread by any means... but I think the interesting angle here is that a straight up trade; Clayton for Crayton, seems feasible. The situation in Dallas leads me to believe the Cowboys would bite, I just don't know if it's worth it on the Ravens end. That's what I'm hoping to hear from you guys... do you think Crayton would be more valuable to us than Clayton is?

If so, then I think it's something we should consider. Though we're pretty set at WR, if you can upgrade anywhere along the depth chart and not spend any money you almost have to do it. But that is the question, whether it's an upgrade or not.

[flynismo]

Is Crayton a better player than Clayton?
I don't think that is in doubt, especially after you factor in special teams. For $2M, I think he represents far better value than a guy who is unproductive as a starter.

But....I just dont know. Crayton has always struck me as kinda jerkish. Not enough to be a problem, but I dont know if he really fits in here as a person.
He doesn't strike me as a team player either.

Then again, I think the pros outweigh the cons...you dont win games because you are a nice guy and have a warm smile. I think Crayton, if on the field in place of Clayton, gives us a much better chance to win.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='flynismo' date='29 May 2010 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1275118362' post='415658']
Is Crayton a better player than Clayton?
I don't think that is in doubt, especially after you factor in special teams. For $2M, I think he represents far better value than a guy who is unproductive as a starter.

But....I just dont know. Crayton has always struck me as kinda jerkish. Not enough to be a problem, but I dont know if he really fits in here as a person.
He doesn't strike me as a team player either.

Then again, I think the pros outweigh the cons...you dont win games because you are a nice guy and have a warm smile. I think Crayton, if on the field in place of Clayton, gives us a much better chance to win.
[/quote]

I agree with you to an extent, in that he CAN be a jerk. I think it's more that he's outspoken, and says what he thinks is true. But that goes both ways... if he thinks a situation is BS he will make sure everyone knows it (i.e. his openly talking about his opinion that Romo favored Witten, and only targeted him when other players were open). With the same token, he is just as open with his praising of team mates (several interviews on Sports Center on how TO was not a cancer and a hard worker. His opinions may not always be accurate but at least he's honest and doesn't discriminate by only going public with the bad.

I think he is justified in his current gripe with the Cowboys... They dangled him as trade bait during the draft without even notifying him that he was on the block. Trades do more than put a player on a different team, esp. a player like him who has a wife and kids who he must move and find schools. He has now asked to be released in order to find a team, learn the offense, build relationships with players/coaches, find schools for kids... but the Cowboys have not even responded to his wishes. The only thing they have said is that they "value" Crayton, but cannot see themselves paying $2 mill. for "insurance." basically that crayton is being strung along for extra bodies at camp but will be cut soon after unless someone gets injured. at that point, no $2 mill. and good luck finding a team. he has said that his biggest problem is that he doesnt feel wanted by the cowboys... he just wants to feel like the team he plays for wants him to be there, and we know how great the ravens are at making everyone feel important in their role.

considering that, i think he would be ecstatic just to have stability of knowing he's on a team that values his ability. though he may not get an overwhelming amount of targets or catches, i could see him stepping in as the starting punt or kick returner. at this point, he would be happy with that. the man just wants touches and to know he has a job in 2010. being surrounded by great leaders like we have in baltimore, i think crayton would be a great citizen, and would only go public with his praises of the organization and its players/coaches (especially after coming from the drama filled cowboys org.)

[CustomUserName]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1275107234' post='415623']
Mark Clayton is due to make $2 million this coming season, but will be battling for a 4th or 5th WR position on the depth chart. At this point his role seems to be as insurance in case one of our top 3 misses time due to injury. However, $2 million is a steep price to pay for insurance, especially for a WR who has limited special teams experience and ability.

Patrick Crayton is in the exact same position with the Dallas Cowboys. With the draft of Dez Bryant he finds himself battling for a 4th or 5th position. He is also due to make $2 million this season, but is worried that he will be cut after training camp as the Cowboys are unwilling to pay the price. Crayton does however have special teams experience as a returner, a pretty successful one at that. His number last season were almost exactly the same as Roy Williams, but Williams is due to make almost $13 million making him the necessary choice to keep due to financial commitment. Crayton was trade bait during the draft, but since no deal went down he realizes he may be without a team after camp. He is demanding to be released so he has time to find a team.

Crayton wants to find a team, but a trade may be his only option. The Cowboys want an insurance policy and want to keep Crayton but would probably rather have a player who wants to be there. Would a straight up trade make sense??

We don't need any more recievers at this point, but insurance wouldn't hurt. Would you want to make a straight up trade to get Crayton? Would he be an upgrade over Clayton?

I don't know how I feel or what I would do, but I just read an article on Crayton's feelings about staying with the Cowboys and Clayton came to mind. Clayton isn't the most popular player and hasn't reached his 1st round potential. Again and again he has failed to meet expectations, but I still keep hope that maybe one day.... haha. I don't know, tell me what you think!! Debate.

(Please explain your answers using factual information, or using reliable sources... No "Well I like him, or no I don't like him...")
[/quote]

No, and I don't understand why everyone is all of Clayton. So what, he didn't live up to his potential, like so many WRs don't, but to have someone of his skill running routes against a dime back, hot damn, I would take that any time of the week.

Not to mention that one obvious bit about Clayton and not Crayton being adept to our system.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I'm kinda torn on this issue.

First, I don't think that Clayton is as bad as many make him out to be.

True he has never lived up to first round expectations. At times he does struggle with separation. And, that dropped pass at New England will haunt him for a long time and won't be easily forgotten by many fans! Plus, he had a pretty unproductive season last year.

He has had good seasons with us ie: 2006, his best, and has proved he has the ability to make difficult catches.

Why trade someone who knows the system already and may excel in the 4th role if used. Is well liked in the locker room and he'll easily fill in for someone if they go down.

On the other hand, a new face could be beneficial. Possibly bring something additional in that we don't possess. Sometimes a new start will do wonders for a players' career.

Questions will loom. Can Crayton fit in here? Does he possess that "Play Like A Raven" mentality? Can he put the team first and do whats needed to win games? Could he learn our system in time to be effective?

If I was the one making the decision, I would take the safe bet and stay with Clayton. But, I would have no problem bringing Crayton in here to compete with Clayton to see who is the better of the two! That would be a better scenario as opposed to a straight up trade.

[Dan The Man Ravens #1 Fan]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1275108757' post='415631']
Well he's available. He's willing, the Cowboys are willing, we'll have to see if the Ravens are interested. I agree if you're going to pay a guy $2 million you want him to be on the field. Clayton may not get there as we don't run many 4 or 5 wide out packages. Crayton is a returner, but has lost his job in Dallas to Dez. I think he would be happy returning kicks and as 4th on the depth chart at WR.
[/quote]

This is where the "fatal flawl" comes into affect. You are assuming that Crayton would be "happy" much less willing to persue a spot on any team being just a kick returner. From what I see he wants to be on the field. I think he does have the skills and ability to be a starter on more than one team in the NFL. You may think it would be a perfect fit but I dont really think this is what Crayton has in mind when asking to be released.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 03:11 AM' timestamp='1275117092' post='415654']
My bad if I ripped your thread by any means... but I think the interesting angle here is that a straight up trade; Clayton for Crayton, seems feasible. The situation in Dallas leads me to believe the Cowboys would bite, I just don't know if it's worth it on the Ravens end. That's what I'm hoping to hear from you guys... do you think Crayton would be more valuable to us than Clayton is?

If so, then I think it's something we should consider. Though we're pretty set at WR, if you can upgrade anywhere along the depth chart and not spend any money you almost have to do it. But that is the question, whether it's an upgrade or not.
[/quote]
A straight up trade would not happen. Both teams would probably end up losers. Because Clayton fits our offense more, and Crayton fits the Cowboys offense more. Not only that, but if you look at it in terms of straight up talent, I gotta give the edge to Crayton not by much at all, but I'd still do it. So essentially the Cowboys would receive a slightly less talented player, unfamiliar with their offense, who would battle for a 4th or 5th spot as mentioned in exchange for a slightly more talented player who does fit it.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

The ST thing is not a valid argument.....
“I’m always able and willing,” Clayton said. “I can do that if they need me.”
this is from the article "Clayton Willing To Help On Special Teams"

plus to the OP clayton isnt contending for a 4 or 5, his battle lies at 3, he has 4 on lock.

[Dan The Man Ravens #1 Fan]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='29 May 2010 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1275144114' post='415695']
The ST thing is not a valid argument.....
“I’m always able and willing,” Clayton said. “I can do that if they need me.”
this is from the article "Clayton Willing To Help On Special Teams"

plus to the OP clayton isnt contending for a 4 or 5, his battle lies at 3, he has 4 on lock.
[/quote]

I may agree with Clayton being willing to play special teams but I would disagree that Clayton is a lock for the 4th spot on the recieving corp. His spot on the team is definately on the fence and he has a tough battle ahead of him come training camp. I see the Ravens carrying 5 recievers this year so he may, M A Y ?, make the team. No one is a lock.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='Rav'n Maniac' date='29 May 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1275127458' post='415667']
And, that dropped pass at New England will haunt him for a long time and won't be easily forgotten by many fans!
[/quote]
I dont think it will haunt him like it did the fans.... i mean the guy got 30 yards on that 66 yard drive. He was the one that gave the team any sort of chance on that final drive. Armchair QBs are ruthless and dont make much sense to me

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='Dan The Man Ravens #1 Fan' date='29 May 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1275144603' post='415696']
I may agree with Clayton being willing to play special teams but I would disagree that Clayton is a lock for the 4th spot on the recieving corp. His spot on the team is definately on the fence and he has a tough battle ahead of him come training camp. I see the Ravens carrying 5 recievers this year so he may, M A Y ?, make the team. No one is a lock.
[/quote]
you may agree to him being willing?! HAHAHAHA you have to agree with it because he said he was
and he is a lock... aside from boldin, stallworth, and Reed
all the others have been here for years and who has been able to beat clayton out for his job yet? clayton is a lock at 4, and he is battling for 3 because stallworths numbers are not overwhelming when compaired to claytons but i think after all is said and done Stallworth will take the 3

[T-Sizz]

Are we just having this argument because their names sound alike?

[Dan The Man Ravens #1 Fan]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='29 May 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1275145482' post='415698']
you may agree to him being willing?! HAHAHAHA you have to agree with it because he said he was
and he is a lock... aside from boldin, stallworth, and Reed
all the others have been here for years and who has been able to beat clayton out for his job yet? clayton is a lock at 4, and he is battling for 3 because stallworths numbers are not overwhelming when compaired to claytons but i think after all is said and done Stallworth will take the 3
[/quote]

The only reason Clayton said he is willing to Try special teams is the fact that he is not a lock! He knows he is on the fence and will have to scratch and claw to get his spot on the field. Whether its 3rd, 4th, or even 5th he is not a lock.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='29 May 2010 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1275144114' post='415695']
The ST thing is not a valid argument.....
“I’m always able and willing,” Clayton said. “I can do that if they need me.”
this is from the article "Clayton Willing To Help On Special Teams"

plus to the OP clayton isnt contending for a 4 or 5, his battle lies at 3, he has 4 on lock.
[/quote]


being willing and being successful are two different things. crayton has been the primary returner and a good one at that...

secondly, i dont think clayton has anything on lock. this is just my opinion but i dont know that the ravens want to pay anyone $2 million to be a back up (which makes this whole thread somewhat meaningless if thats the case). he may be battling for the 3rd but if he doesnt get it over stallworth i dont know that the 4th will just be given to him. $2 million for a 4th WR is a pretty steep price, especially for a guy who has no experience playing any other role

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' date='29 May 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1275143785' post='415694']
A straight up trade would not happen. Both teams would probably end up losers. Because Clayton fits our offense more, and Crayton fits the Cowboys offense more. Not only that, but if you look at it in terms of straight up talent, I gotta give the edge to Crayton not by much at all, but I'd still do it. So essentially the Cowboys would receive a slightly less talented player, unfamiliar with their offense, who would battle for a 4th or 5th spot as mentioned in exchange for a slightly more talented player who does fit it.
[/quote]


well, i do see your point with knowing the system, but to the talent issue. Crayton may be a bit more talented, but if he's not going to see the field you dont want a guy who is ticked off with the organization, and already going to the media with his desire to be released sitting in the locker room and on the side lines for an entire season making $2 million. thats the recipe for a TO type of locker room disaster. i think if they are going to HAVE to pay a guy $2 million to be security theyd take a slightly less skilled player who may possibly be content to sit around and make his money (or at very least not blow up the locker room).

The ravens would end up with a returner, something clayton may be willing to try, but hasnt proven he can do it, nor have the ravens said they want him to.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='29 May 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1275145482' post='415698']
you may agree to him being willing?! HAHAHAHA you have to agree with it because he said he was
and he is a lock... aside from boldin, stallworth, and Reed
all the others have been here for years and who has been able to beat clayton out for his job yet? clayton is a lock at 4, and he is battling for 3 because stallworths numbers are not overwhelming when compaired to claytons but i think after all is said and done Stallworth will take the 3
[/quote]


also, just because clayton is willing to try ST doesnt mean anything significant. I am more than willing to return kicks for the Ravens, that doesnt mean theyre gonna call me to try out.

Just bc clayton is being open to anything to try and save his spot on the team, doesnt mean the ravens really care that he's willing to. reed specialized in returns, is a capable receiver (I hope) and is set to make a lot less money that clayton, as well as having youth on his side. parmele also was a great returner last year, so clayton being WILLING doesnt mean he WILL.

to the point, crayton would come in as the most experienced returner and most successful. not saying he will, or that ravens would even consider this... just to the ST point that you say isnt valid.... It is! bc clayton being willing doesnt compare to crayton actually being able to.

[berad]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1275152853' post='415718']
being willing and being successful are two different things. crayton has been the primary returner and a good one at that...

secondly, i dont think clayton has anything on lock. [b]this is just my opinion but i dont know that the ravens want to pay anyone $2 million to be a back up[/b] (which makes this whole thread somewhat meaningless if thats the case). he may be battling for the 3rd but if he doesnt get it over stallworth i dont know that the 4th will just be given to him. $2 million for a 4th WR is a pretty steep price, especially for a guy who has no experience playing any other role
[/quote]

Willis McGahee and Trevor Pryce?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

to the point of crayton not wanting to come here bc he wants playing time, i see the logic in it, but i do think under a certain circumstance he would be willing. with the cowboys he knows hes not going to see the field at all. theyve said they wont release him, so a trade is his only option. the 'boys value crayton and know hes great insurance, so they would need some near equal value to be willing to trade.

if a trade is his only option, he might be willing to lower his standards to some gaurenteed return time and a possibility of battling for a receiving spot. if we are in agreement that clayton is battling with stallworth but giving stallworth the edge, and we are agreeing that crayton is better than clayton, is it possible that crayton might be able to beat out stallworth?

just a thought

[berad]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' date='29 May 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1275154062' post='415728']
to the point of crayton not wanting to come here bc he wants playing time, i see the logic in it, but i do think under a certain circumstance he would be willing. with the cowboys he knows hes not going to see the field at all. theyve said they wont release him, so a trade is his only option. the 'boys value crayton and know hes great insurance, so they would need some near equal value to be willing to trade.

if a trade is his only option, he might be willing to lower his standards to some gaurenteed return time and a possibility of battling for a receiving spot. [b]if we are in agreement that clayton is battling with stallworth but giving stallworth the edge, and we are agreeing that crayton is better than clayton, is it possible that crayton might be able to beat out stallworth?[/b]

just a thought
[/quote]

See now, that's where you're wrong. Mark Clayton has been a better, or at least more productive, receiver than Patrick Crayton. Here are their statistics:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClayMa01.htm"]Clayton[/url]
[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CrayPa00.htm"]Crayton[/url]

As you can see, Clayton has been the more productive receiver. Clayton averages more catches and yards per season. And, even recently, over the past two years Clayton surpassed Crayton in yardage despite having played in two less games.

Saying Crayton is better than Clayton is an opinion. But, if you look at the objective statistics, you would find something else.

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' date='29 May 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1275154616' post='415729']
See now, that's where you're wrong. Mark Clayton has been a better, or at least more productive, receiver than Patrick Crayton. Here are their statistics:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClayMa01.htm"]Clayton[/url]
[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CrayPa00.htm"]Crayton[/url]

As you can see, Clayton has been the more productive receiver. Clayton averages more catches and yards per season. And, even recently, over the past two years Clayton surpassed Crayton in yardage despite having played in two less games.

Saying Crayton is better than Clayton is an opinion. But, if you look at the objective statistics, you would find something else.
[/quote]


That is completely ignoring the fact that Crayton has spent his career as a number 3-4 WR. But when he gets the chance to start, he produces. I'm not sure what his career totals are, but I'm willing to bet that despite his part time role, Crayton probably has DOUBLE the career TDs as Clayton.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='berad' date='29 May 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1275154616' post='415729']
See now, that's where you're wrong. Mark Clayton has been a better, or at least more productive, receiver than Patrick Crayton. Here are their statistics:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClayMa01.htm"]Clayton[/url]
[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CrayPa00.htm"]Crayton[/url]

As you can see, Clayton has been the more productive receiver. Clayton averages more catches and yards per season. And, even recently, over the past two years Clayton surpassed Crayton in yardage despite having played in two less games.

Saying Crayton is better than Clayton is an opinion. But, if you look at the objective statistics, you would find something else.
[/quote]

its a surprising argument you make considering that the 2009 stats, crayton is better across the board. (receptions, yards, ypc, and TDs). clayton was slight better in 2008. the only other season clayton was better was in 2006 and was way better that year. crayton has had more TDs in every year though, by a pretty good margin too. an important stat your stats do not include is # of targets in which crayton has had less each year, and in 2009 has 7 less targets but still had better numbers.

im not saying its a clean sweep, but clayton was a starting receiver, crayton a back up. other than 2006 clayton had 1 year (2008) with better stats and that was with more targets. crayton every other year, and notably in 2009 has had better stats across the board (especially TDs) while being targeted less. hes gotten more done with less opportunities to do so.

not only that he's also been a return man, so if you go by all purpose yards, its not even close.

PS- i did make the argument now that crayton has been better (by whatever margin) in less targets... in my former post each statement was preceded by IF... as in IF we were to assume those points (which it seemed the consensus was). so IF those statements are true it makes sense, but IF NOT true, then it doesnt. thats all.