Walter Jones Retires

[FerrariFan87]

Seattle Seahawks sure-fire Hall of Fame LT, Walter Jones, announced his retirement today. Like our very own Jonathan Ogden, Jones was a force on O-line for most of his 13-year career (the last two seasons marred by injury). He protected the blind side like no other, and future LTs will surely be measured against Jones.

[url="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5149710"]Read the Full Story[/url]

[Ed_Reed20]

Sad to see a legend like him retire. Shaun Alexander STILL owes him money.

[BloodRaven]

Congratulations Walter. 2nd best LT of your generation, you can hold your head up high.

[AsianRice]

Matt Hasselbeck had great year because of him, the Legend Walter Jones. Can our LT Gaither or Other going to be the next Walter Jones?

[SaVaGe]

Apparently he only gave up like 15-20 something sacks in his career which is insane.

[FlaccoFlicker]

On 5,703 pass attempts over 13 seasons, according to coaches stats, Walter Jones was called for holding 9 times and surrendered 23 sacks.

[berad]

He and Orlando Pace were the only two players that even came close to JO in this decade. Great tackles.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FlaccoFlicker' date='30 April 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1272657780' post='402825']
On 5,703 pass attempts over 13 seasons, according to coaches stats, Walter Jones was called for holding 9 times and surrendered 23 sacks.
[/quote]

That's not filthy, that's nasty.

[flynismo]

[quote name='FlaccoFlicker' date='30 April 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1272657780' post='402825']
On 5,703 pass attempts over 13 seasons, according to coaches stats, Walter Jones was called for holding 9 times and surrendered 23 sacks.
[/quote]


Mind numbing...
The best tackle to ever play the game.

Sorry fellas, but just calling it like I see it. J.O. was a very, very close second...but hung around a little longer than he should have. J.O. was definitey the most physically gifted tackle though.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='30 April 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1272674033' post='402935']
Mind numbing...
[b]The best tackle to ever play the game.[/b]

Sorry fellas, but just calling it like I see it. J.O. was a very, very close second...but hung around a little longer than he should have. J.O. was definitey the most physically gifted tackle though.
[/quote]

Anthony Munoz and Randall McDaniel say "hi".

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='30 April 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1272675776' post='402944']
Anthony Munoz and Randall McDaniel say "hi".
[/quote]

I guess "the best ....... ever" statement is a surefire way to start a debate lol...

So let's get it on!

I never watched those two play, so my opinion is less than fully educated.

However, if there is any way to find their stats, I will bet that Jones' numbers are better.
And, I don't ever recalling Jones getting help from TE (like J.O. did in his later years--I'll never forget the game against Indy in 07 I think it was...), so his numbers look even better.

If you or anyone else can dig up some stats for Munoz and McDaniel, I would love to see them!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='30 April 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1272681923' post='402971']
I guess "the best ....... ever" statement is a surefire way to start a debate lol...

So let's get it on!

I never watched those two play, so my opinion is less than fully educated.

However, if there is any way to find their stats, I will bet that Jones' numbers are better.
And, I don't ever recalling Jones getting help from TE (like J.O. did in his later years--I'll never forget the game against Indy in 07 I think it was...), so his numbers look even better.

If you or anyone else can dig up some stats for Munoz and McDaniel, I would love to see them!
[/quote]

I don't know where to find those statistics but stats alone don't always tell the full story, especially not with positions on the offensive line.

J.O.'s toe was what forced him into retirement but the fact he still played at a reasonably high level for a few years despite such a debilitating injury speaks volumes about him as a player.

As for Jones, not to deny his skill, but the guy HAD to have gotten help at some during his career. Every OT does.

I've never seen Munoz or McDaniel play in person either but I've watched a TONS of NFL Films DVDs and both guys were key players on some truly great teams.

EDIT: My mistake dude. McDaniel was GUARD. I remember watching his HOF induction and thought he was a tackle.

A better comparison would be Orlando Pace who did play LT and more importantly, in this era.

Former offensive lineman Ross Tucker of SI seems to feel Jones is the best ever and I've seen a good amount of articles slapping with the "G.O.A.T." tag:

[quote]
It is amazing to me how one of the best players in the NFL over the past 12 years retires and does so with such little fanfare. Both Ogden and Orlando Pace were stellar in their prime but I never thought that either came all that close to what Big Walt could do, especially in the run game. His ability to drop his hips and move people was breathtaking. Boselli was a personal favorite because of his attitude and demeanor. It is a shame his shoulders wore out.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ross_tucker/04/30/jets.mailbag/#ixzz0mhjO6GXz
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription
[/quote]

Still subjective...

[BloodRaven]

It is subjective, for example Ogden's struggles late in his career were injury related and Walter Jones longevity is offset by a comparatively slow start to his career (first All-pro nod in 5th season, Ogdens in 2nd season)

[flynismo]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='30 April 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1272688984' post='403005']
It is subjective, for example Ogden's struggles late in his career were injury related and Walter Jones longevity is offset by a comparatively slow start to his career (first All-pro nod in 5th season, Ogdens in 2nd season)
[/quote]

Very fitting that the word subjective appears in the same sentence as Pro Bowl

I think I should rephrase my earlier statement about Ogden, or at least clarify.
J.O. was a supreme talent, and I certainly would not argue against the assertation that HE is the best OT ever. You can make a very legitimate case for him. Same with Jones.
But Pace does not belong in this discussion (to whoever mentioned him).

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 May 2010 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1272693155' post='403024']
Very fitting that the word subjective appears in the same sentence as Pro Bowl

I think I should rephrase my earlier statement about Ogden, or at least clarify.
J.O. was a supreme talent, and I certainly would not argue against the assertation that HE is the best OT ever. You can make a very legitimate case for him. Same with Jones.
[b]But Pace does not belong in this discussion (to whoever mentioned him).[/b]
[/quote]

Why not? Because of his play the past two seasons?

While he's tarnished his reputation somewhat, lets not forget "The Greatest Show on Turf" began their run just two seasons after he was drafted. Not that he was the main reason but I doubt Warner, Faulk, Holt, Bruce and everyone else involved would have done what they did without Pace.

Plus, 7 All-Pro selections(more than Ogden) should put him in the discussion automatically.

[BloodRaven]

Jonathan Ogden: 6 X 1st team All-pro, 2 X 2nd team

Orlando Pace: 5 X 1st team All-pro

Walter Jones: 4 X 1st team All-pro, 3 X 2nd team

Ogden leads in 1st team honors and total All-pro honors despite retiring 2 years ago. Also worth mentioning is neither Jones or Pace were as good as JO at run blocking.

[flynismo]

My thing about Pro Bowls is that it is a popularity contest more than anything else. Means nothing to me when comparing players.

I dont think Pace was ever as good as either J.O. or Jones, and in a debate about who the best OT ever was, no one will ever claim it was Pace...consensus top 3 is Munoz, Ogden and Jones (in whatever order) so figured I'd just cut to the chase and leave him out..

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 May 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1272740423' post='403174']
My thing about Pro Bowls is that it is a popularity contest more than anything else. Means nothing to me when comparing players.

I dont think Pace was ever as good as either J.O. or Jones, and in a debate about who the best OT ever was, no one will ever claim it was Pace...consensus top 3 is Munoz, Ogden and Jones (in whatever order) so figured I'd just cut to the chase and leave him out..
[/quote]

I agree with you about Pro Bowls. There was a time when they truly meant something but with so many starts skipping the event nowadays, the honor has been cheapened.

As for Pace, I'm sure there are many people who'd make the argument he's the best OT of all time. I watch those NFL Network "Top 10" shows whenever I can and there are wide-ranging opinions from writers, broadcasters, commentators and former players on every single position.

For example, Paul Zimmerman feels Albert Lewis(a damn good CB in his time), was just as good as Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson and Darrelle Green. A lot of people would disagree but Zimmerman has watched a ton of ball and can anyone say he's wrong for having a different opinion?

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='01 May 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1272742088' post='403181']
I agree with you about Pro Bowls. There was a time when they truly meant something but with so many starts skipping the event nowadays, the honor has been cheapened.

As for Pace, I'm sure there are many people who'd make the argument he's the best OT of all time. I watch those NFL Network "Top 10" shows whenever I can and there are wide-ranging opinions from writers, broadcasters, commentators and former players on every single position.

For example, Paul Zimmerman feels Albert Lewis(a damn good CB in his time), was just as good as Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson and Darrelle Green. A lot of people would disagree but Zimmerman has watched a ton of ball and can anyone say he's wrong for having a different opinion?
[/quote]


Sure, our opinions are just that...nothing more.

What makes this difficult is the fact that Munoz played in a totally different era than JO, Jones and Pace.
He faced smaller, less athletic opponents with last generation defensive schemes. Was the 3-4 even in wide use during Munoz's heyday?

But on the flipside, what I like to do when comparing players of different eras is to compare how much more dominant over their peers each player is/was.
So let's say for argument's sake that Munoz wasn't as physically gifted or talented as JO, but was light years ahead of the guys and systems of his day. Who gets the nod?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 May 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1272747719' post='403200']
Sure, our opinions are just that...nothing more.

What makes this difficult is the fact that Munoz played in a totally different era than JO, Jones and Pace.
He faced smaller, less athletic opponents with last generation defensive schemes. Was the 3-4 even in wide use during Munoz's heyday?

But on the flipside, what I like to do when comparing players of different eras is to compare how much more dominant over their peers each player is/was.
So let's say for argument's sake that Munoz wasn't as physically gifted or talented as JO, but was light years ahead of the guys and systems of his day. Who gets the nod?
[/quote]

Good points.

People often discount eras but its a very important factor and can make comparing players impossible.

I know it wasn't all J.O. but considering the Ravens were among the leader leaders in rushing most of the time he was here(too lazy to break down the stats), produced a 2000 yard rusher and shut down RE most of the time, I'd say he was better than Munoz.

Now, between J.O. and Walter Jones, that debate could go on forever.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='01 May 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1272754675' post='403225']
Good points.

People often discount eras but its a very important factor and can make comparing players impossible.

I know it wasn't all J.O. but considering the Ravens were among the leader leaders in rushing most of the time he was here(too lazy to break down the stats), produced a 2000 yard rusher and shut down RE most of the time, I'd say he was better than Munoz.

Now, between J.O. and Walter Jones, that debate could go on forever.
[/quote]


To answer my own question, I give the nod to JO.

I think it comes down to Jones and JO.

My opinion is that at their absolute best, JO was probably a hair better. I dont givadamn who says what, JO was the best run blocking tackle I've ever seen. Even at the very end of his career, when age and injuries left him a shell of his former self, he was a supreme run blocker. Some may point to Shaun Alexander and ask how I could say that...pretty simple. Jones had Steve Hutchinson, playing next to him. Ogden had some fat, crazy islander who was pretty good in his own right for a short time, but not in the same universe as Hutch. Despite that disadvantage, Ogden still helped lead the way to a 2k yard season.
As for pass blocking, JO was incredible. Nothing else to say. But what can be said about Jones? All that needs said there is that there was one point in his career that he went something like 2 1/2 years without giving up a sack. Jones was the best pass blocking OT we've ever seen, and will be a long time before we get to witness again.
And at the end of the day, that is what left tackles are paid to do Protect the QB. Run blocking is a secondary, though still important skill.

So, my vote goes to Walt Jones. But please feel free to pick apart my line of thinking, because I am definitely open to changing my opinion on this one.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 May 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1272765178' post='403277']
To answer my own question, I give the nod to JO.

I think it comes down to Jones and JO.

My opinion is that at their absolute best, JO was probably a hair better. I dont givadamn who says what, JO was the best run blocking tackle I've ever seen. Even at the very end of his career, when age and injuries left him a shell of his former self, he was a supreme run blocker. Some may point to Shaun Alexander and ask how I could say that...pretty simple. Jones had Steve Hutchinson, playing next to him. Ogden had some fat, crazy islander who was pretty good in his own right for a short time, but not in the same universe as Hutch. Despite that disadvantage, Ogden still helped lead the way to a 2k yard season.
As for pass blocking, JO was incredible. Nothing else to say. But what can be said about Jones? All that needs said there is that there was one point in his career that he went something like 2 1/2 years without giving up a sack. Jones was the best pass blocking OT we've ever seen, and will be a long time before we get to witness again.
And at the end of the day, that is what left tackles are paid to do Protect the QB. Run blocking is a secondary, though still important skill.

So, my vote goes to Walt Jones. But please feel free to pick apart my line of thinking, because I am definitely open to changing my opinion on this one.
[/quote]

Can't disagree with anything you said.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='flynismo' date='01 May 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1272740423' post='403174']
My thing about Pro Bowls is that it is a popularity contest more than anything else. Means nothing to me when comparing players.

I dont think Pace was ever as good as either J.O. or Jones, and in a debate about who the best OT ever was, no one will ever claim it was Pace...consensus top 3 is Munoz, Ogden and Jones (in whatever order) so figured I'd just cut to the chase and leave him out..
[/quote]

I agree with you, the thing is, I never said anything about Pro-Bowls. I said [b]All-pro[/b].