Pass Defense Last Year

[TheRavenouseD2008]

ok started thinking about this, what causes interceptions?

the number one thing - Preasure, where did we rank on INTs well according to here [url="http://http//www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=INTERCEPTIONS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2009&seasonType=REG"]Number 5[/url] now remember most of the teams above us are NFC . you want to look at preasure and think Sacks ok we are number 18 , now how did we fair points from take aways ? thats the only one I worry about 3 and outs are great but points from take aways then guess what that wins games!!!!!!

[flynismo]

[quote name='DocMartin' date='26 April 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1272333556' post='400790']
Come on, that's no comparison between the defense in 2000 and 2010. These players might get close - maybe one day - but the NFL itself has a part in it. Back in 2000 you could almost "closeline" the WR and it was ok. No PI calls, no "horsecollar" rules and etc. Nowdays, you even touch WR running by, refs throwing the flag - it's ridiculous !!!

[/quote]

I'm not quite sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I was saying, but this statement backs up my claim.
We had about the same amount of stinkers during the 00 an 09 seasons, and considering the quality of QBs and as you mentioned, the rules of today's NFL, that is a VERY impressive feat.

And before anyone gets any wise ideas, no, I am not suggesting the 09 defense was as good as the 00 defense.

[AZravensfan]

[quote name='TheRavenouseD2008' date='26 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1272338386' post='400844']
ok started thinking about this, what causes interceptions?

the number one thing - Preasure, where did we rank on INTs well according to here [url="http://http//www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=INTERCEPTIONS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2009&seasonType=REG"]Number 5[/url] now remember most of the teams above us are NFC . you want to look at preasure and think Sacks ok we are number 18 , now how did we fair points from take aways ? thats the only one I worry about 3 and outs are great but points from take aways then guess what that wins games!!!!!!
[/quote]

K well your not changing your mind and I am definitely not changing mine. We will agree to disagree and the season will tell us who was right. Takeaways or not our pass rush wasn't that good last year.

[slugz1]

[quote name='AZravensfan' date='26 April 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1272336285' post='400821']
Again, our D was not the problem against the Colts. We held Peyton to 20 points(which is like 10 points less than "the best D in the league" did last year) and he had less than 250 yards passing,which is a pretty low total for him. Our secondary also made a play to turn it around, [b]I believe the Reed interception was the 3rd quarter? Garcon just made a hell of an effort play to get it back. Rag on the secondary during the year all you want but when it came playoff time our D was there and represented how we play football in Baltimore. We will be a better team this year and it will show.[/b]

If you tell me right now that we play the Colts in the chapionship game and they only score 20 then I will say Hell yea let them have 20 and hope our offense can produce and help the D out. We should be able to count on our O to put up at least 20 points a game, especially with the way they are calling penalties for WR's. Just recently our WR output has been crap, obviusly will be better this year (barring any major injuries).

I really don't care what goes on in the regular season just as long as we make the playoffs and play good there.
[/quote]
Not to mention when we reached the playoffs most of Ed Reed's picks came from foxworth swatting the ball.

[JayDaRavensFan]

Our secondary played well against Peyton both times we faced him. We got multiple picks both t. imes I believe. It was the offense that hasn't showed up against the Colts. 5 field goals in the first game and once we couldn't score from the goal line on 3 tries...thats unacceptable. We only gave up 17 points that game to Peyton. Not to mention Ed Reed gave up the ball in both games as well(on the last punt return in the first game and fumbled an INT in the second game). Reed tries to do too much sometimes but I love him for always tryin to make something happen. It was also the first season under a new coordinator so I expect everyone to get better just by being more comfortable in it. I think we'll be OK. I know we did melt down at times last season but I think with an improved offense games wont be as close. Also if the offense improves and we can increase our time of possesion the defense wont get as worn down and be fresher later in the game. I just cant wait til the season starts and see what kind of defense we put on the field.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='slugz1' date='27 April 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1272341005' post='400877']
Not to mention when we reached the playoffs most of Ed Reed's picks came from foxworth swatting the ball.
[/quote]

That isn't true. Ed's lone INT against NE came from off a tipped ball by Foxworth(perfect coverage by the way) but his two other picks came from simply out-smarting Peyton.

[GrimCoconut]

Since we're on the subject of penalties, I still have nightmares of the Packers game. That was one of the worst football games I've seen. Halfway through I was wondering whether Green Bay and Baltimore were going for touchdowns or penalties.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' date='27 April 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1272342640' post='400890']
Since we're on the subject of penalties, I still have nightmares of the Packers game. That was one of the worst football games I've seen. Halfway through I was wondering whether Green Bay and Baltimore were going for touchdowns or penalties.
[/quote]

The referees were calling ANYTHING that night. I was surprised when they didn't throw a flag on a play where Walker ran stride for stride with his man but kept pulling and tugging at him, never turned around to look for the ball and gave up the catch.

[indianstick]

i think foxworth really improved through out the year..he proved that he can play like an above average cb..he had his best year last season by far

i didn't know what to think of webb from what i saw in the preseason..but he really stepped up in the regular season (which is what matters)..and really worked hard..putting in crucial film time with reed, foxworth and the other dbs

fabian isn't bad either..and i think carr can be a decent nickle or a solid dime corner

I know we kind of signed a couple undrafted dbs..but i would like to see us sign a veteren FA cb..maybe dre' bly? he would be good for us..esp if fabian isn't 100% by week 1. Foxworth, bly, (fabian), carr is an upgrade from foxworth, carr, walker and ivy and thats what we had when we made our late season/play off run

[DocMartin]

[quote name='indianstick' date='27 April 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1272344444' post='400902']
i think foxworth really improved through out the year..he proved that he can play like an above average cb..he had his best year last season by far

i didn't know what to think of webb from what i saw in the preseason..but he really stepped up in the regular season (which is what matters)..and really worked hard..putting in crucial film time with reed, foxworth and the other dbs

fabian isn't bad either..and i think carr can be a decent nickle or a solid dime corner

I know we kind of signed a couple undrafted dbs..but i would like to see us sign a veteren FA cb..maybe dre' bly? he would be good for us..esp if fabian isn't 100% by week 1. Foxworth, bly, (fabian), carr is an upgrade from foxworth, carr, walker and ivy and thats what we had when we made our late season/play off run
[/quote]
I would agree Foxworth became very good late in the season, he is our No.1 corner, no question. As No.2 it should be Webb when healthy, with F.Washington as a backup, because he didn't have a good season last year. Not sure who should be a nickel at this point, maybe Carr?

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='26 April 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1272333062' post='400779']
Didn't Mark Brunell and Jimmy Smith destroy the secondary in 2000?
[/quote]


Still trying to forget....

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200009100rav.htm

[indianstick]

webb would be our no. 2 when he gets back which could be after the bye..if earlier then maybe after 4-6 games..but im talking about in the beggining of the season..we could use a veteran like dre bly..esp if fabian isn't 100%..i would feel pretty good with foxworth..dre bly..and carr in week 1 against the jets

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' date='27 April 2010 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1272348289' post='400934']
Still trying to forget....

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200009100rav.htm
[/quote]

I heard Scott Garceau(sp) talking about it a while ago saying Duane Starks got eaten alive by Smith that day.

Indianstick, I know you're high on Bly and there's a chance he could become a Raven but he's small and has lost a lot of quickness and speed. I wouldn't feel comfortable if he was starting on the boundary.

[indianstick]

ed_reed20- im high on dre bly compared to the other corners left in FA..just a curious question though..do you think dre bly would be an upgrade from carr?

[TheRavenouseD2008]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='27 April 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1272343831' post='400896']
The referees were calling ANYTHING that night. I was surprised when they didn't throw a flag on a play where Walker ran stride for stride with his man but kept pulling and tugging at him, never turned around to look for the ball and gave up the catch.
[/quote]


the funny thing is that ref group later got called into goodels office because rumor was the head ref was trying to call as many as possible so he could hear himself on monday night football

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='indianstick' date='27 April 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1272350539' post='400956']
ed_reed20- im high on dre bly compared to the other corners left in FA..just a curious question though..do you think dre bly would be an upgrade from carr?
[/quote]

Bly would likely be an upgrade over Carr. He has more experience and better ball skills. Carr is quicker and faster at this point in their careers but Bly is probably better in coverage.

I'll chceck out the current list of FA CBs later today and see who I'd like to see the team pursue.

[Runnin Raven]

I appreciate the debate going on in here. I'm a numbers guy at work and while I didn't spend a lot of time overanalyzing the stats, they just struck me as pretty favorable - overall. But we did have situational meltdowns which cost us multiple games last year, especially early in the season.

The emergence of Lardarius Webb really seemed to be the glue that held our secondary together before his injury. All of a sudden certain wideouts were not making plays against us.

With an improved pass rush (hopefully with significant contributions from Kindle/Kruger) the secondary should be able to elevate its play as well.

Man I hope Webb gets healthy fast.

[hawkprey]

If you take away the first six (horrible defensive) games, our average I think was giving up 180 yards per game in the air. That would put us second in the league. And that was with an unusually poor pass rush and injuries to our starters. So no I don't think it's a big concern. A weak spot? Maybe. But not a big concern.

By the way, did anyone notice how we aren't getting blown up by big name QB's anymore (since mid season when our D figured itself out under Mattinson)?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='hawkprey' date='27 April 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1272390642' post='401195']
By the way, did anyone notice how we aren't getting blown up by big name QB's anymore (since mid season when our D figured itself out under Mattinson)?
[/quote]

The players got more comfortable and the combination of leadership, talent and trust allowed the players to stop thinking and simply play ball.

We hate to admit but a gambling centerfielder like Ed isn't always good for a D, especially when the CBs aren't Pro Bowlers like McAlister and Rolle were.

Like every season, there will be a transitional period next season for guys like Cody, Kindle and other new players that manage to see playing time.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Runnin Raven' date='27 April 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1272373701' post='401013']
I appreciate the debate going on in here. I'm a numbers guy at work and while I didn't spend a lot of time overanalyzing the stats, they just struck me as pretty favorable - overall. But we did have situational meltdowns which cost us multiple games last year, especially early in the season.

The emergence of Lardarius Webb really seemed to be the glue that held our secondary together before his injury. All of a sudden certain wideouts were not making plays against us.

With an improved pass rush (hopefully with significant contributions from Kindle/Kruger) the secondary should be able to elevate its play as well.

Man I hope Webb gets healthy fast.
[/quote]

Since you're a numbers cruncher, how about crunching the +20 passing yds gains given up to elite offenses vs. those of so-so teams on last season's schedule. That'll give you a more honest evaluation of the Ravens secondary. Any way you look at it, this team needs a bonafide grade A corner like yesterday.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='27 April 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1272393942' post='401222']
The players got more comfortable and the combination of leadership, talent and trust allowed the players to stop thinking and simply play ball.

We hate to admit but a gambling centerfielder like Ed isn't always good for a D, especially when the CBs aren't Pro Bowlers like McAlister and Rolle were.

Like every season, there will be a transitional period next season for guys like Cody, Kindle and other new players that manage to see playing time.
[/quote]


What was that? A Hallmark Card? The corners got better when Mattison figured out that the Ravens are a max blitz defense that';s best when disguising angled blitzes. Something he should have figured out at the beginning of the season and something the players and 99% of fans already knew.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='30 April 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1272629084' post='402584']
What was that? A Hallmark Card? The corners got better when Mattison figured out that the Ravens are a max blitz defense that';s best when disguising angled blitzes. Something he should have figured out at the beginning of the season and something the players and 99% of fans already knew.
[/quote]

Here we go again.

I highly doubt 99% of the fan know how CB deficiencies can be hid through heavy blitzing.

Regardless, it isn't easy to commit to a max-blitz because as we saw NUMEROUS times when Rex was here, you often die by the blitz against good QBs.

The Giants proved three seasons ago that if you can bring pressure from your front four alone, you can still win games. Mattison tried that early in the season only to realize neither Ngata or Gregg generate a lot of push and Suggs was too big to use his speed moves to get to the passer. Its easy to sit back, play armchair QB and say he have figured that out early on.

With all that said, like I've said hundreds of times, for as much as the D struggled early on, they figured it out and played very well the last game. It was the O that failed more than anything.

[FlaccoFlicker]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='30 April 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1272642994' post='402656']
Here we go again.

I highly doubt 99% of the fan know how CB deficiencies can be hid through heavy blitzing.

Regardless, it isn't easy to commit to a max-blitz because as we saw NUMEROUS times when Rex was here, you often die by the blitz against good QBs.

The Giants proved three seasons ago that if you can bring pressure from your front four alone, you can still win games. Mattison tried that early in the season only to realize neither Ngata or Gregg generate a lot of push and Suggs was too big to use his speed moves to get to the passer. Its easy to sit back, play armchair QB and say he have figured that out early on.

With all that said, like I've said hundreds of times, for as much as the D struggled early on, they figured it out and played very well the last game. It was the O that failed more than anything.
[/quote]
Good point Reed.When we start losing everything is put under a microscope,everything gets picked apart,hell even when we won last year we picked our team apart.Everyone can't be pleased but I think our issues aren't as bad as some make it out to be.I think with a year under the belt these guys will know each others way of play hence why I think we looked better at the end of the year.

[theFRANCHISE]

Heavy blitzing doesn't necessarily mask deficiencies in coverage -- getting a good pass rush certainly does. A good pass rush does not preclude blitzing heavily, and blitzing heavily does not mean you are necessarily generating a good pass rush. The Lions blitzed all they could and still could not get to the QB consistently the past two seasons. Same with the Jaguars, Chiefs, and other defenses that tried to manufacture a pass rush through liberally blitzing.

Additionally, blitzing heavily leaves your secondary susceptible to the deep ball. Though the idea is to minimize the amount of time a good QB has to hurt you in the pocket, there has been a proliferation of "mobile pocket QBs" like Roethlisberger and Flacco who do not necessarily need to scramble to hurt you with their legs. The evolution of the QB has called for a level of improvisation that allows a QB to buy time to make the throw, rather than simply tuck the football and run when a play breaks down. Given that shift, a heavy overload blitz can leave an entire side of the field exposed -- and coverage, good or bad, then becomes a moot point if the QB can pick up a first down on his own.

Bottom line, an efficient defense works better than a gimmicky defense. Though having good players in the secondary always helps, playoff teams in recent years have shown that you can have average defensive backs and still have a good pass defense if the pass rush is solid. And once again, a good pass rush does not preclude blitzing heavily.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='01 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1272732891' post='403122']
Heavy blitzing doesn't necessarily mask deficiencies in coverage -- getting a good pass rush certainly does. A good pass rush does not preclude blitzing heavily, and blitzing heavily does not mean you are necessarily generating a good pass rush. The Lions blitzed all they could and still could not get to the QB consistently the past two seasons. Same with the Jaguars, Chiefs, and other defenses that tried to manufacture a pass rush through liberally blitzing.

Additionally, blitzing heavily leaves your secondary susceptible to the deep ball. Though the idea is to minimize the amount of time a good QB has to hurt you in the pocket, there has been a proliferation of "mobile pocket QBs" like Roethlisberger and Flacco who do not necessarily need to scramble to hurt you with their legs. The evolution of the QB has called for a level of improvisation that allows a QB to buy time to make the throw, rather than simply tuck the football and run when a play breaks down. Given that shift, a heavy overload blitz can leave an entire side of the field exposed -- and coverage, good or bad, then becomes a moot point if the QB can pick up a first down on his own.

Bottom line, an efficient defense works better than a gimmicky defense. Though having good players in the secondary always helps, playoff teams in recent years have shown that you can have average defensive backs and still have a good pass defense if the pass rush is solid. And once again, a good pass rush does not preclude blitzing heavily.
[/quote]

Again, this is real football and not football theory 101. Heavy blitzing packages hide deficiencies in coverage/pressure. Max blitz out of a 3/4 is no gimmick. It's been a successful tactic since the early 1960's AFC. Good Max Blitz teams do well with it, bad Max Blitz teams do not. It truly seems odd that a Ravens fan would argue against the virtues of Max Blitz given the success of Organized Chaos.

[Arch Valor]

Runnin Raven good research but not the most important numbers other than the TDS to Interceptions. Look at numbers like balls batted down on third downs or better yet third and long situations. What did we do there? Not nearly as well.

We need to be more consistent in the secondary on big downs. Third and longs most importantly which happen alot for us luckily. It seems like we always give up the big plays in those positions.

Which leads me to say we usually play man to man in those situations b/c were blitzing. I think we need to pick someone up that has great man to man skills. I think all of our corners are pretty good in zone but lack in there man to man coverages.

[Fred Sanford]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='01 May 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1272734605' post='403130']
Again, this is real football and not football theory 101. Heavy blitzing packages hide deficiencies in coverage/pressure. Max blitz out of a 3/4 is no gimmick. It's been a successful tactic since the early 1960's AFC. Good Max Blitz teams do well with it, bad Max Blitz teams do not. It truly seems odd that a Ravens fan would argue against the virtues of Max Blitz given the success of Organized Chaos.
[/quote]

Exactly! Remember how well it worked against the Patriots when Ed Reed got to Brady in a tenth of a second and he still threw a looping TD to Moss? Come on, man.

The NFL is too sophisticated a league to be able to consistently max blitz. Swing passes, dump offs, etc., especially to guys like Chris Johnson, will get the offense about an 80 yard gain when you do that. It's got to be rarely used, and disguised well, or leads to catastrophe.

The whole point of "Organized Chaos" is that it's chaotic, or unpredictable. We might send 1 guy, we might send 9 guys. We've moved away from that, for better or worse, but max blitzing often makes it extremely predictable and extremely foolish. You end up looking like the British at the Battle of the Somme.

Also, you talking down to Franchise is like Mini-Me throwing a haymaker at Mike Tyson. It just looks a little silly.

[TheRavenouseD2008]

want to point something out when we finaly started webb in week 7 or 8 I think he began to show up , number 2 mattison said in week 13 we had finaly started to get this D rolling , now far be it from me a cordinator normaly needs 1-2 season to get D in place where they and the players are happy , this put in my third point all we need to do is sit back I think he knows what to do I am sure the D leaders been in a war room getting ready for mondays begning of mini camps

[Whitty Hutton]

Brodie Croyle + Mark Bradley = too much for Washington:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81291aff/Bradley-50-yard-catch

It's OK to leave Gates wiiiiide open because he sux:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-diego-chargers/09000d5d812c3d7f/Gates-37-yd-catch

VJax says, "All Your Base Belong To Me!" (also, Landry brings the wood to Reed):
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d812c704f/WK-2-Vincent-Jackson-highlights

Foxworth showing why he's worthless in man:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81322050/Brady-to-Moss-TD

Foxworth thinks tackling is optional:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8134ebb2/Chris-Henry-makes-big-catch

Carr and Washington miss the subtleties of the double crossing route:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8137ce67/Bernard-Berrian-TD

Landry, could you suck in coverage anymore, please?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8137e61d/Shiancoe-s-2nd-TD

Foxworth showing why he's worthless in zone:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d814cdcd3/Driver-8-yard-TD-rec

Zib says, "I learned from the worst!":
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d814cdb3f/Finley-2-yard-TD-rec

Zib says, "Me no tackle like Foxworth!":
http://www.nfl.com/videos/baltimore-ravens/09000d5d814ce28a/Finley-s-2nd-TD-rec

Foxworth showing his uber speed on the corner blitz (and why Landry sucks):
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81548040/Santonio-Holmes-24-yard-TD

Yep. Foxworth still sux:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815c613e/Collie-10-yard-touchdown-catch