4-3 V.s. 3-4

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='-Truth-' date='07 April 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1270656417' post='387820']
Well did you try reading again? His statistic said 40 games were missed by starters in 2008 and 9 more than that were missed in 2009. There were 16 players on IR. The 3 players on the practice squad were injured, but not placed on Reserve List. This is compared to the 15 players that were on IR last Season. Not exactly comparatively healthy. And to touch on the games against Cincinnati, Joe Flacco threw for a combined 381 Passing Yards, with 1 TD and 4 INTs in 2 combined contests. Why blame the Defense for the difference in TOP?
[/quote]

Try again. 15 players were not IR'ed last season. Get your facts right.

[berad]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1270702564' post='388183']
Try again. 15 players were not IR'ed last season. Get your facts right.
[/quote]

Correct. Only 13 players were on IR last season ([url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/01/Ravens_Offseason_Injury_Outlook.aspx"]LINK[/url]).

The fact still stands that the 2009 defensive starters missed more games than the 2008 version. though.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='07 April 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1270679266' post='388060']
While I appreciate the comment, your TOP argument is a fallacy as it directly correlates to both sides of the ball not just one. Not only did Mattison hold Cincy to 17 points, but in one of the games the defense actually scored half the points for the Ravens in the game. Mattison does have a different approach, but Rex was vastly different than Marvin, and his blitz philosophy vastly different than Nolans. Also this defense I would argue cant be as aggressive as it has been in the past because of its lack of experience and high quality ability in the secondary. Mattison was forced to give the corners help over the top, and forced to do it even more when Walker and Carr were playing 40 snaps a game. If we had C-Mac and Rolle when they could still play, then yes I would agree Mattison needs to let it air out more often. He's playing with the personnel he's got, the defenses quality players isnt close to what its been in the past. Last year we had what 2 playmakers (Ray, Reed- you cant even count Suggs last year) some would argue Ray isnt the playmaker he was. Look at the guys Rex had playing for him from 06-08 as playmakers (Scott, AD, Suggs, Lewis, Reed, C-Mac, Rolle, Reed, Pryce had 13 something sacks in 06). Now to directly compare 08 and 09. Scott, Suggs, Lewis, Reed, Rolle(compare his play to our DB play this year is night and day). I still dont even know who you want running this defense, nobody is aggressive as Rex is, and your not going to find another DC that sells out as much as him on the blitz.

Im really trying to let you have your say with this, but wanting Mattison gone is foolish at this point. He has his own opinions and schemes on coaching a defense and game planning than Rex and although not flashy, the defense was effective last season. And as you state, last year was his first year running a 3-4 defense, considering that and he finished 3rd in the league, and with another year to get to understand it better, the defense can only get stouter(unless key injuries, *knock on wood*)
[/quote]
First of all, stating that TOP is a fallacy is an argument against the basic tenant of ball control, clock control football. And that's one debate you'll forever lose. Both Cincy games were prime example of this. Marvin Lewis' game plan was simple and effective. Keep our defense on the field while keeping our offense off the field and walk away with an easy win. Margin of victory be damned-TOP prevailed once again... rather twice by huge margins. Secondly, as to personnel-irrelevant. As stated before It was never the personnel- it was Mattison's mayonnaise schemes that frightened no one, confused no one, and most of all, pressured no one. It was not until Mattison's 3/4 of the season epiphany that disguised blitzing is the Ravens' calling card did this defense have any semblance of its old effectiveness. And thirdly, as a Ravens' fan, you should be incensed that this historically elite and proud defense was used as bad experiment by some cherry DC, especially with the window of opportunity for an SB ring is rapidly closing. Will this defense improve next year? Highly unlikely given Mattison's slow to adapt personality. That is why I proffered the idea that if the Ravens are truly serious about taking the Lombardi Trophy this coming season, Dan Pees, an experienced DC at the NFL level, will have to play a greater part in designing next year's defense. For left in the hands of a sloooooooow Gregg Mattison alone, this great defense and it's players are doomed.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='berad' date='08 April 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1270702985' post='388185']
Correct. Only 13 players were on IR last season ([url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/01/Ravens_Offseason_Injury_Outlook.aspx"]LINK[/url]).

The fact still stands that the 2009 defensive starters missed more games than the 2008 version. though.
[/quote]

More smoke and blue mirrors. 2008 team with 19 players IR'ed ( and also having to play 18 games in a row ) went to the AFC Championship game. 2009 team with 13 players IR'ed barely made the playoffs then got bounced in the second round. Fact remains, 2008 team, facing far more adversity, out performed the 2009 team. So forget about it, you'll never win this one.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 03:15 AM' timestamp='1270710934' post='388201']
First of all, stating that TOP is a fallacy is an argument against the basic tenant of ball control, clock control football. And that's one debate you'll forever lose. Both Cincy games were prime example of this. Marvin Lewis' game plan was simple and effective. Keep our defense on the field while keeping our offense off the field and walk away with an easy win. Margin of victory be damned-TOP prevailed once again... rather twice by huge margins. Secondly, as to personnel-irrelevant. As stated before It was never the personnel- it was Mattison's mayonnaise schemes that frightened no one, confused no one, and most of all, pressured no one. It was not until Mattison's 3/4 of the season epiphany that disguised blitzing is the Ravens' calling card did this defense have any semblance of its old effectiveness. And thirdly, as a Ravens' fan, you should be incensed that this historically elite and proud defense was used as bad experiment by some cherry DC, especially with the window of opportunity for an SB ring is rapidly closing. Will this defense improve next year? Highly unlikely given Mattison's slow to adapt personality. That is why I proffered the idea that if the Ravens are truly serious about taking the Lombardi Trophy this coming season, Dan Pees, an experienced DC at the NFL level, will have to play a greater part in designing next year's defense. For left in the hands of a sloooooooow Gregg Mattison alone, this great defense and it's players are doomed.
[/quote]

So I guess it was Mattison's fault the defense drew three penalties on Cincy's final drive in the first game and the refs failed to see Andre Caldwell yank Chris Carr's facemask to get open. And it wasn't definitely Mattison's fault that after giving up 17 points early in the second Cincy game, his D clamped down but the offense did next to nothing.

You have your opinions on Mattison(albeit based on one season) but like I said before, the beautiful thing is, the team isn't as shallow as you. They won't promote Pees to DC and the D should improve after a strong draft and maybe a few more FA signings.

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1270735175' post='388255']
More smoke and blue mirrors. 2008 team with 19 players IR'ed ( and also having to play 18 games in a row ) went to the AFC Championship game. 2009 team with 13 players IR'ed barely made the playoffs then got bounced in the second round. Fact remains, 2008 team, facing far more adversity, out performed the 2009 team. So forget about it, you'll never win this one.
[/quote]

The argument wasn't performance. You claimed the 2009 D was healthier when in fact, it wasn't. Rather than arrogantly jump to a new point, admit you're wrong.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 April 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1270736441' post='388263']
So I guess it was Mattison's fault the defense drew three penalties on Cincy's final drive in the first game and the refs failed to see Andre Caldwell yank Chris Carr's facemask to get open. And it wasn't definitely Mattison's fault that after giving up 17 points early in the second Cincy game, his D clamped down but the offense did next to nothing.

You have your opinions on Mattison(albeit based on one season) but like I said before, the beautiful thing is, the team isn't as shallow as you. They won't promote Pees to DC and the D should improve after a strong draft and maybe a few more FA signings.



The argument wasn't performance. You claimed the 2009 D was healthier when in fact, it wasn't. Rather than arrogantly jump to a new point, admit you're wrong.
[/quote]


Ever more excuses. Here it is in a nutshell. Cincinnati controlled the clock, ball and game nearly ten minutes more than the Ravens in the first game. The Bengals controlled the clock, ball, and game a ridiculous 20 minutes more than the Ravens in game 2 reducing the Ravens chances of winning those games to a " punchers chance ". Nine times out of ten, when you've been reduced to only a " puncher's chance "- you lose. We lost...ugly.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 April 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1270736441' post='388263']
So I guess it was Mattison's fault the defense drew three penalties on Cincy's final drive in the first game and the refs failed to see Andre Caldwell yank Chris Carr's facemask to get open. And it wasn't definitely Mattison's fault that after giving up 17 points early in the second Cincy game, his D clamped down but the offense did next to nothing.

You have your opinions on Mattison(albeit based on one season) but like I said before, the beautiful thing is, the team isn't as shallow as you. They won't promote Pees to DC and the D should improve after a strong draft and maybe a few more FA signings.



The argument wasn't performance. You claimed the 2009 D was healthier when in fact, it wasn't. Rather than arrogantly jump to a new point, admit you're wrong.
[/quote]

Also reread the article on the link. There's no mention of total missed games by either 2008 or 2009 teams. I suspect just another erroneous statement by Barad. What we do know is the 2008 team IR'ed 19 players while the 2009 team IR'ed 13 players and that the 2008 team faced more adversity and outperformed the 2009 team. Barad would have been better served had he examined the IR list combined with the total injury list ( a consideration to those players who returned to duty and contributed ) and those players losing game time due to coaches decisions for a more accurate and honest evaluation. I'm sure after he's done that, he'll realize he has to come to my side of this discussion.

[Ngata92NT]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 10:56 AM' timestamp='1270742211' post='388299']
Ever more excuses. Here it is in a nutshell. Cincinnati controlled the clock, ball and game nearly ten minutes more than the Ravens in the first game. The Bengals controlled the clock, ball, and game a ridiculous 20 minutes more than the Ravens in game 2 reducing the Ravens chances of winning those games to a " punchers chance ". Nine times out of ten, when you've been reduced to only a " puncher's chance "- you lose. We lost...ugly.
[/quote]

Isn't it the fault of the offense that the Bengals had so much more possession? Our offense couldn't put up points and couldn't sustain drives. The Bengals only scored 17 points, we were able to get them off the field. But we'd just give the ball right back to them on offense, putting huge pressure on the defense and wearing them down.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1270742211' post='388299']
Ever more excuses. Here it is in a nutshell. Cincinnati controlled the clock, ball and game nearly ten minutes more than the Ravens in the first game. The Bengals controlled the clock, ball, and game a ridiculous 20 minutes more than the Ravens in game 2 reducing the Ravens chances of winning those games to a " punchers chance ". Nine times out of ten, when you've been reduced to only a " puncher's chance "- you lose. We lost...ugly.
[/quote]

They aren't excuses; they're valid points you're too thick or arrogant to acknowledge.

No one is denying Cincy dominated the clock. What you either don't realize or don't want to admit to is that TOP can be won or lost on both sides of the ball.

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1270743269' post='388305']
Also reread the article on the link. There's no mention of total missed games by either 2008 or 2009 teams. I suspect just another erroneous statement by Barad. What we do know is the 2008 team IR'ed 19 players while the 2009 team IR'ed 13 players and that the 2008 team faced more adversity and outperformed the 2009 team. Barad would have been better served had he examined the IR list combined with the total injury list ( a consideration to those players who returned to duty and contributed ) and those players losing game time due to coaches decisions for a more accurate and honest evaluation. I'm sure after he's done that, he'll realize he has to come to my side of this discussion.
[/quote]

The 2008 team facing more adversity than the 2009 team is your opinion, it isn't fact.

And way to change the argument again. We weren't talking about the total number of players that landed on IR, it was the D that we are talking about.

I'm done though. Most of the arguments you've started since you joined the forum have been based in opinion. When people call you out on them or flat out prove you wrong, you jump to some other random point.

[Moderator 3]

Easy there friends. No personal insults please, no matter how strongly you disagree.

[flynismo]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1270742211' post='388299']
Ever more excuses. Here it is in a nutshell. Cincinnati controlled the clock, ball and game nearly ten minutes more than the Ravens in the first game. The Bengals controlled the clock, ball, and game a ridiculous 20 minutes more than the Ravens in game 2 reducing the Ravens chances of winning those games to a " punchers chance ". Nine times out of ten, when you've been reduced to only a " puncher's chance "- you lose. We lost...ugly.
[/quote]

Here's the REAL bottom line, which for the sake of your argument, you have smartly avoided..

Our defense finished #3 overall.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 April 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1270736441' post='388263']
The argument wasn't performance. You claimed the 2009 D was healthier when in fact, it wasn't. Rather than arrogantly jump to a new point, admit you're wrong.
[/quote]

I agree, it's hardly worth typing a response.

[XxSizzleXx]

How bout them Ravens eh guys hahaha.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 April 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1270745962' post='388335']
They aren't excuses; they're valid points you're too thick or arrogant to acknowledge.

No one is denying Cincy dominated the clock. What you either don't realize or don't want to admit to is that TOP can be won or lost on both sides of the ball.



The 2008 team facing more adversity than the 2009 team is your opinion, it isn't fact.

And way to change the argument again. We weren't talking about the total number of players that landed on IR, it was the D that we are talking about.

I'm done though. Most of the arguments you've started since you joined the forum have been based in opinion. When people call you out on them or flat out prove you wrong, you jump to some other random point.
[/quote]

Since you're done, let's do a wrap up of things you now agree with and cannot refute.
( A. ) Ravens' defense is fundamentally, through personnel and identity, a base 3/4- 46.
( B. ) Gregg Mattison miscalculated early in the season running a elite fundamentally sound 3/4-46 defense out of a base 4/3.
( C.) It took Mattison 1/2 season to realize blitzing defense is the Ravens calling card.
( D.) It took Mattison 3/4 of the season to realize disguised blitzing from angles is a tactic Ravens personnel had already perfected.
( E. ) Gregg Mattison is a slow witted bubblehead.
( F. ) 2008 defense outperformed 2009 defense.
( G. ) 2008 team IR'ed more players than 2009 team.
( H. ) Dominating TOP is a winning strategy.


Ta- Daaaaa!!!

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='berad' date='08 April 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1270755327' post='388419']
I agree, it's hardly worth typing a response.
[/quote]

You can't. Ta Daaaaaaa!!!!

[berad]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1270766315' post='388562']
You can't. Ta Daaaaaaa!!!!
[/quote]

I can. All of the stats I posted were correct because I actually took the time to compile them on my own, they are not 'erroneous' in any manner.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270710934' post='388201']
First of all, stating that TOP is a fallacy is an argument against the basic tenant of ball control, clock control football. And that's one debate you'll forever lose. Both Cincy games were prime example of this. Marvin Lewis' game plan was simple and effective. Keep our defense on the field while keeping our offense off the field and walk away with an easy win. Margin of victory be damned-TOP prevailed once again... rather twice by huge margins. Secondly, as to personnel-irrelevant. As stated before It was never the personnel- it was Mattison's mayonnaise schemes that frightened no one, confused no one, and most of all, pressured no one. It was not until Mattison's 3/4 of the season epiphany that disguised blitzing is the Ravens' calling card did this defense have any semblance of its old effectiveness. And thirdly, as a Ravens' fan, you should be incensed that this historically elite and proud defense was used as bad experiment by some cherry DC, especially with the window of opportunity for an SB ring is rapidly closing. Will this defense improve next year? Highly unlikely given Mattison's slow to adapt personality. That is why I proffered the idea that if the Ravens are truly serious about taking the Lombardi Trophy this coming season, Dan Pees, an experienced DC at the NFL level, will have to play a greater part in designing next year's defense. For left in the hands of a sloooooooow Gregg Mattison alone, this great defense and it's players are doomed.
[/quote]
I was never stating TOP itself is a fallacy in football. I stated that JUDGING a defenses performance by TOP is a fallacy and that we lost the Cincy games because the TOP battle was the defenses fault, your still refusing to either believe or accept that TOP is directly related to BOTH sides of the ball.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='berad' date='08 April 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1270768960' post='388579']
I can. All of the stats I posted were correct because I actually took the time to compile them on my own, they are not 'erroneous' in any manner.
[/quote]


You didn't. You did some bad research and provided, not erroneous, but short sighted and misleading information. Happy now? Bye the bye, I'm still waiting on a link to information backing your claim that the 2009 team missed more games than the 2008 team taking into consideration the IR list, Players injured and returning to duty, and players withheld by coaches decision. There's a formula for that yielding a percentage. As moderator, will you please provide a link.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='08 April 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1270769020' post='388581']
I was never stating TOP itself is a fallacy in football. I stated that JUDGING a defenses performance by TOP is a fallacy and that we lost the Cincy games because the TOP battle was the defenses fault, your still refusing to either believe or accept that TOP is directly related to BOTH sides of the ball.
[/quote]


You're still out on a limb. CLUE: Think in terms of RAVENS' football- it's identity- it's past winning formula then get back to me on the importance of TOP to a Ravens team. how it's achieved, and how it's maintained.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='07 April 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1270702564' post='388183']
Try again. 15 players were not IR'ed last season. Get your facts right.
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Baltimore_Ravens_season

Final Roster.

[Moderator 2]

Please keep it civil and decrease the sarcasm--thanks.

[thewarden86]

[berad]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1270775138' post='388625']
You didn't. You did some bad research and provided, not erroneous, but short sighted and misleading information. Happy now? Bye the bye, I'm still waiting on a link to information backing your claim that the 2009 team missed more games than the 2008 team taking into consideration the IR list, Players injured and returning to duty, and players withheld by coaches decision. There's a formula for that yielding a percentage. As moderator, will you please provide a link.
[/quote]

Here is a complete list of the (projected) starters for each season and the games they missed.

[b]2008[/b]
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/trevorpryce/profile?id=PRY103822"]T. Pryce[/url] (0 games missed)
DT - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/kellygregg/profile?id=GRE701631"]K. Gregg[/url] (16 games missed, on IR, replaced by [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/justinbannan/profile?id=BAN699243"]J. Bannan[/url])
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937"]H. Ngata[/url] (0 games missed)

OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/jarretjohnson/profile?id=JOH338168"]J. Johnson[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/raylewis/profile?id=LEW562347"]R. Lewis[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/bartscott/profile?id=SCO100498"]B. Scott[/url] (0 games missed)
OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201"]T. Suggs[/url] (0 games missed)

CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/chrismcalister/profile?id=MCA544720"]C. McAlister[/url] (10 games missed but not for injury, for a dispute with the coaching staff; put on IR, replaced by Washington)
CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/samarirolle/profile?id=ROL531110"]S. Rolle[/url] (6 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/fabianwashington/profile?id=WAS285408"]F. Washington[/url] (1 game missed to injury, faced suspension and wasn't activated for others)
FS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/edreed/profile?id=REE192451"]E. Reed[/url] (0 games missed)
SS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dawanlandry/profile?id=LAN144473"]D. Landry[/url] (14 games missed, put on IR, replaced by Leonhard)

[b]47 total games missed.[/b] [i]In actuality, it should be 37 as McAlister was benched, not for his health, but for his poor attitude.[/i]

[b]2009[/b]
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/trevorpryce/profile?id=PRY103822"]T. Pryce[/url]/[url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dwanedwards/profile?id=EDW667014"]D. Edwards[/url] (0 combined games missed)
DT - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/kellygregg/profile?id=GRE701631"]K. Gregg[/url] (0 games missed)
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937"]H. Ngata[/url] (2 games missed, [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/justinbannan/profile?id=BAN699243"]J. Bannan[/url] started in his absence)

OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/jarretjohnson/profile?id=JOH338168"]J. Johnson[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/raylewis/profile?id=LEW562347"]R. Lewis[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/brendonayanbadejo/profile?id=AYA436705"]B. Ayanbadejo[/url] (12 games missed)
*ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/tavaresgooden/profile?id=GOO267090"]T. Gooden[/url] (4 games missed, [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dannellellerbe/profile?id=ELL108165"]D. Ellerbe[/url] finished season as starter)
OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201"]T. Suggs[/url] (3 games missed)

CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/domoniquefoxworth/profile?id=FOX813566"]D. Foxworth[/url] (0 games missed)
CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/samarirolle/profile?id=ROL531110"]S. Rolle[/url] (16 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/fabianwashington/profile?id=WAS285408"]F. Washington[/url] (6 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/lardariuswebb/profile?id=WEB229214"]L. Webb[/url] (2 games missed)
FS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/edreed/profile?id=REE192451"]E. Reed[/url] (4 games missed, replaced by Zbikowski until healthy)
SS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dawanlandry/profile?id=LAN144473"]D. Landry[/url] (0 games missed)

[b]49 total games missed.[/b]

[i]* denotes a player that filled in for an injured starter and was injured in action. I didn't bother putting in the replacements that remained healthy (for obvious reasons).[/i]

So, as you can see, my statement that the 2009 team missed more time than the 2008 team was accurate [i](miscalculated the 2008 total, earlier, because I had forgotten Rolle was injured)[/i]. I had to put this together on my own, you won't find it on a website. The fact stands that the 2009 defense had [b]more starters lose time[/b] and [b]more lost time by starters[/b] than the 2008 defense. If you factor in the McAlister issue, which you should, the difference is dramatic. I hope this clears up any confusion.

[Ed_Reed20]

Thank you berad.

With all the injuries Mattison had to deal with and simply getting familiar with players, I'd say he did a pretty good job last year.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 April 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1270783321' post='388683']
With all the injuries Mattison had to deal with and simply getting familiar with players, I'd say he did a pretty good job last year.
[/quote]
Also, for a unit going through a transitionary period as every unit does between coordinators, Mattison did pretty well for his first year. This was a team that played against 6 eventual playoff teams in the regular season (Bengals twice, so 7 games), and the defense faced 6 different offenses that finished in the top 10 of the league (Steelers twice, so 7 games).

Again, everyone forgets so quickly that Rex Ryan struggled in [i]his[/i] first year as defensive coordinator in 2005, allowing 299 points scored. Interestingly, in the Ravens' 14 seasons of play, Mattison's unit allowed the 4th-fewest points in franchise history with 261 points, which is only 17 more than Rex Ryan's unit allowed in 2008. The average points scored per game in 2009 was 21.5; Mattison's defense allowed 16.3 points per game, which was fewer than the average. Far from atrocious.

But, it [i]does[/i] help that the defense also finished 3rd in the league in 2009 in both fewest yards [i]and[/i] fewest points allowed. Not too shabby for a guy in his first year; Rex Ryan, conversely, finished 10th in fewest points allowed and 5th in fewest yards allowed in his first season as Ravens coordinator.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='08 April 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1270775919' post='388630']
You're still out on a limb. CLUE: Think in terms of RAVENS' football- it's identity- it's past winning formula then get back to me on the importance of TOP to a Ravens team. how it's achieved, and how it's maintained.
[/quote]
No, your twisting the argument now to make it fit your statements, and facts. This originally to you was Mattison is no good because he cant get off the field and HIM and the DEFENSE lost the TOP battle. The OFFENSE directly relates to that problem and your still ignoring it, and still throwing snide remarks all over the place. BOTH sides of the ball have to contribute to the TOP battle. You dont "lose" the TOP battle on one side of the ball.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='berad' date='08 April 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1270780778' post='388658']
Here is a complete list of the (projected) starters for each season and the games they missed.

[b]2008[/b]
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/trevorpryce/profile?id=PRY103822"]T. Pryce[/url] (0 games missed)
DT - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/kellygregg/profile?id=GRE701631"]K. Gregg[/url] (16 games missed, on IR, replaced by [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/justinbannan/profile?id=BAN699243"]J. Bannan[/url])
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937"]H. Ngata[/url] (0 games missed)

OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/jarretjohnson/profile?id=JOH338168"]J. Johnson[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/raylewis/profile?id=LEW562347"]R. Lewis[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/bartscott/profile?id=SCO100498"]B. Scott[/url] (0 games missed)
OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201"]T. Suggs[/url] (0 games missed)

CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/chrismcalister/profile?id=MCA544720"]C. McAlister[/url] (10 games missed but not for injury, for a dispute with the coaching staff; put on IR, replaced by Washington)
CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/samarirolle/profile?id=ROL531110"]S. Rolle[/url] (6 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/fabianwashington/profile?id=WAS285408"]F. Washington[/url] (1 game missed to injury, faced suspension and wasn't activated for others)
FS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/edreed/profile?id=REE192451"]E. Reed[/url] (0 games missed)
SS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dawanlandry/profile?id=LAN144473"]D. Landry[/url] (14 games missed, put on IR, replaced by Leonhard)

[b]47 total games missed.[/b] [i]In actuality, it should be 37 as McAlister was benched, not for his health, but for his poor attitude.[/i]

[b]2009[/b]
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/trevorpryce/profile?id=PRY103822"]T. Pryce[/url]/[url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dwanedwards/profile?id=EDW667014"]D. Edwards[/url] (0 combined games missed)
DT - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/kellygregg/profile?id=GRE701631"]K. Gregg[/url] (0 games missed)
DE - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/halotingata/profile?id=NGA622937"]H. Ngata[/url] (2 games missed, [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/justinbannan/profile?id=BAN699243"]J. Bannan[/url] started in his absence)

OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/jarretjohnson/profile?id=JOH338168"]J. Johnson[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/raylewis/profile?id=LEW562347"]R. Lewis[/url] (0 games missed)
ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/brendonayanbadejo/profile?id=AYA436705"]B. Ayanbadejo[/url] (12 games missed)
*ILB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/tavaresgooden/profile?id=GOO267090"]T. Gooden[/url] (4 games missed, [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dannellellerbe/profile?id=ELL108165"]D. Ellerbe[/url] finished season as starter)
OLB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/terrellsuggs/profile?id=SUG467201"]T. Suggs[/url] (3 games missed)

CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/domoniquefoxworth/profile?id=FOX813566"]D. Foxworth[/url] (0 games missed)
CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/samarirolle/profile?id=ROL531110"]S. Rolle[/url] (16 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/fabianwashington/profile?id=WAS285408"]F. Washington[/url] (6 games missed)
*CB - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/lardariuswebb/profile?id=WEB229214"]L. Webb[/url] (2 games missed)
FS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/edreed/profile?id=REE192451"]E. Reed[/url] (4 games missed, replaced by Zbikowski until healthy)
SS - [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/dawanlandry/profile?id=LAN144473"]D. Landry[/url] (0 games missed)

[b]49 total games missed.[/b]

[i]* denotes a player that filled in for an injured starter and was injured in action. I didn't bother putting in the replacements that remained healthy (for obvious reasons).[/i]

So, as you can see, my statement that the 2009 team missed more time than the 2008 team was accurate [i](miscalculated the 2008 total, earlier, because I had forgotten Rolle was injured)[/i]. I had to put this together on my own, you won't find it on a website. The fact stands that the 2009 defense had [b]more starters lose time[/b] and [b]more lost time by starters[/b] than the 2008 defense. If you factor in the McAlister issue, which you should, the difference is dramatic. I hope this clears up any confusion.
[/quote]
Don't buy it. I specifically asked you to post a link. Your previous fudging of has lost you all credibility.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='09 April 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1270795366' post='388711']
Don't buy it. I specifically asked you to post a link. Your previous fudging of has lost you all credibility.
[/quote]
Besides, more fudging on your part. Wouldn't you have been more honest to include the entire Ravens' lineup instead of just starters? Oh, that's right, your point is lost if you did that. Shame on ya. The 2009 team was healthier than the 2008 team and that's the facts.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='09 April 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1270789018' post='388701']
No, your twisting the argument now to make it fit your statements, and facts. This originally to you was Mattison is no good because he cant get off the field and HIM and the DEFENSE lost the TOP battle. The OFFENSE directly relates to that problem and your still ignoring it, and still throwing snide remarks all over the place. BOTH sides of the ball have to contribute to the TOP battle. You dont "lose" the TOP battle on one side of the ball.
[/quote]
...again, TOP in the context of Ravens' football...get back to me if it sinks in. I know you can do it.

[Ngata Chance]

[quote name='rastaman831226' date='09 April 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1270796670' post='388714']
...again, TOP in the context of Ravens' football...get back to me if it sinks in. I know you can do it.
[/quote]


Would you agree that TOP is not completely the defence's responsibility?