4-3 V.s. 3-4

[The Raven]

Since this topic has come up a lot lately i thought I'd make an official topic.

I do beleive we are transitioning back to a 4-3 team. But I also think we should use both formations and remain versatile. We are capable of that, we actually do have the personel for both. All we need is Suggs in shape and at least one more pass rushing threat on the line. Having two "nose guards" in Gregg and Ngata starting at tackle, putting JJ and Suggs at end, is very reminiscent of 2000, with McCrary, Goose, Adams, and Burnett.

Discuss.

[Yatagarasu]

If we get Terrence Cody, then 4-3 is the way to go.

But I love the fact that this defense has all the personals to use both schemes interchangeably.

I say use both schemes to confuse offenses and get the advantage to win.

A versatile defense is always a plus.

Look at all the other teams trying to switch to 3-4, they're still rebuilding.

[Bltravens]

My only problem with going to a 4-3 is that we dont have an edge rusher opposite Suggs, and Ray doesnt run like he used to, but Im also never gonna doubt that mans limits in football. Gooden would absolutely flourish as a WLB with protection in front of him (imo)and Ellerbe can play any LB position in a 4-3. The only thing is JJ (imo) becomes hard to fit in, hes not a pure pass rusher and is actually very effective in coverage, putting him at DE would nullify one of his strengths.

[BlindSide]

We run a 3-3-1 We have 3 Lb's, 3 DL men, Then Suggs. If suggs put his hand down we are in 4-3 if he stays up we are in a 3-4.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='The Raven' date='25 March 2010 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1269564703' post='382721']
Since this topic has come up a lot lately i thought I'd make an official topic.

I do beleive we are transitioning back to a 4-3 team. But I also think we should use both formations and remain versatile. We are capable of that, we actually do have the personel for both. All we need is Suggs in shape and at least one more pass rushing threat on the line. Having two "nose guards" in Gregg and Ngata starting at tackle, putting JJ and Suggs at end, is very reminiscent of 2000, with McCrary, Goose, Adams, and Burnett.

Discuss.
[/quote]

Remaining versatile in this situation would be too difficult. Right now you have the guys for a very goo 3-4. You can't expect to draft, coach and field a very good 4-3 while maintaining a very good 3-4. And even if you could, it would be short lived. Defensive schemes (like any thing else) need to be focused soley on and fine tuned. Know what I mean?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='25 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1269568525' post='382743']
My only problem with going to a 4-3 is that we dont have an edge rusher opposite Suggs, and Ray doesnt run like he used to, but Im also never gonna doubt that mans limits in football. Gooden would absolutely flourish as a WLB with protection in front of him (imo)and Ellerbe can play any LB position in a 4-3. The only thing is JJ (imo) becomes hard to fit in, hes not a pure pass rusher and is actually very effective in coverage, putting him at DE would nullify one of his strengths.
[/quote]

Great points.

And if this team is truly transitioning to a 4-3, they'll need to find DTs that can rush the passer more. Corey Redding has had success rushing the passer from the inside and Pryce brought some heat as a DT in situations last season but I don't think there is a true DT on the roster that can rush the passer.

The Ravens certainly have the personnel to be a 4-3 team and they could certainly move players around but certain players are arguably too good not to be on the field all the time.

[MagicianCamille]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='25 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1269568525' post='382743']
My only problem with going to a 4-3 is that we dont have an edge rusher opposite Suggs
[/quote]

Jarret Johnson had more sacks than Suggs, as well as two interceptions. I think we're pretty good on both sides. Suggs could definitely improve though considering that big contract.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' date='25 March 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1269571183' post='382763']
Jarret Johnson had more sacks than Suggs, as well as two interceptions. I think we're pretty good on both sides. Suggs could definitely improve though considering that big contract.
[/quote]
JJ's a great player but hes not much of a pass rusher, 3 of his 6 sacks came untouched, whereas the vast majority of Suggs' sacks the past 3 years are a direct result of him beating someone. Teams gameplan for Suggs (when hes in shape), they dont gameplan for JJ.

[Purple Punishment]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='25 March 2010 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1269571503' post='382765']
JJ's a great player but hes not much of a pass rusher, 3 of his 6 sacks came untouched, whereas the vast majority of Suggs' sacks the past 3 years are a direct result of him beating someone. Teams gameplan for Suggs (when hes in shape), [b]they dont gameplan for JJ.[/b][/quote]

They Should! at least Denver should have last season bwahaha

[Ravensfan23]

in a 4-3 defense JJ would not have to be a DE. He would play the same OLB position. He would be the Sam backer lined up over the TE mostly.

However he would still be able to put his hand in the dirty and rush in certain situations.

[The Raven]

So, with most people saying JJ should remain at OLB, Kruger comes in at DE opposite Suggs?

[sporaven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='25 March 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1269570928' post='382761']
Great points.

And if this team is truly transitioning to a 4-3, they'll need to find DTs that can rush the passer more. Corey Redding has had success rushing the passer from the inside and Pryce brought some heat as a DT in situations last season but I don't think there is a [b]true DT on the roster that can rush the passer[/b].

The Ravens certainly have the personnel to be a 4-3 team and they could certainly move players around but certain players are arguably too good not to be on the field all the time.
[/quote]

Good post, my problem is that you are comparing what they did in a 3-4 to what they could do in a 4-3. In a 3-4 the DL job is to soak up blockers and stop inside runs, then to rush the passer. Very few 3-4 DL get credit because they don't get sacks (exception richard seymour), but in fact I believe that if haloti ngata were in a 4-3 he would be the best known DT in the game. This is why Albert Haynesworth is throwing a fit over transitioning to a 3-4 in Washington.

[EdReedFTW]

[quote name='sporaven' date='26 March 2010 - 08:02 AM' timestamp='1269604936' post='382821']
Good post, my problem is that you are comparing what they did in a 3-4 to what they could do in a 4-3. In a 3-4 the DL job is to soak up blockers and stop inside runs, then to rush the passer. V[b]ery few 3-4 DL get credit because they don't get sacks (exception richard seymour),[/b] but in fact I believe that if haloti ngata were in a 4-3 he would be the best known DT in the game. This is why Albert Haynesworth is throwing a fit over transitioning to a 3-4 in Washington.
[/quote]

That's the reason that I still cant believe what Bruce Smith was able to do. The league leader in sacks was a 3 4 DE. Unbelievable.

[charchboii]

if suggs has his hand on the ground its a 4-3 but if he dont its a 3-4

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='The Raven' date='26 March 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1269599641' post='382818']
So, with most people saying JJ should remain at OLB, Kruger comes in at DE opposite Suggs?
[/quote]

Yes. We would probably start off with Pryce as the startin DE, but quickly start to make the tranisiton to Kurger or a drafted guy, whoever earns the job.

[Alexir]

The fact that Suggs is slimming down to 255 really throws a flag to me anyways, that we will be sticking with the 3-4 defense. Either way, we need to draft some Defensive lineman this year, Haloti can't do it all himself and Gregg is getting old.

Interested to see Kruger at DE though this year.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' date='25 March 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1269566044' post='382725']
If we get Terrence Cody, then 4-3 is the way to go.
[/quote]
I completely disagree with that statement. The whole reason for drafting Cody would be to play the nose in the 3-4

[houck27]

If a 43 was run, you would have Ngata and Redding at DT and Suggs and Pryce at DE on 1st downs as well as 2nd and short and 3rd and short. The OLB would be Elerby and JJ wiht Ray in the middle. On passing downs you would have Kruger come in for Pryce and Barnes or Carr come in for Elerby, in a nickle situation.
In a 34 you would have to draft Odrick or Cody. if Odrick then you have Ngata at NT and Redding and Odrick at DE with the same LB crew from last year and on passing downs bring in Kruger for the DL and take out Redding or Odrick. If Cody then he plays DT and Ngata and Redding play DE, and Kruger comes in for Cody on passing downs and bumbs Ngata down. We could run either that is why we did both last year.

[MKdave]

In my opinion, we very very very clearly have 3-4 personnel at this point in time. Haloti has never exhibited the pass rushing skills to suggest he'd be better in a 4-3, Gregg doesn't have those skills either. Cory Redding being a good interior pass rusher once upon a time does not justify playing 4-3. Pryce doesn't have the footspeed to play 4-3 DE anymore and Kruger is still an unknown. Ray isn't going to be able to handle too much of the coverage aspect of a 4-3 LB at this age, and Ellerbe looked a liability in coverage at times last season. The move makes sense for Gooden, but from what we've seen, do we want him to be our starting linebacker? JJ could play DE or OLB in the alignment, but neither optimizes his strengths like the 3-4 OLB position does. As for Suggs, from what I've seen of him with his hand in the ground he rushes better, but you take away from his run stopping abilities, and we payed him for his versatility, not his pass rushing prowess.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='The Raven' date='26 March 2010 - 06:34 AM' timestamp='1269599641' post='382818']
So, with most people saying JJ should remain at OLB, Kruger comes in at DE opposite Suggs?
[/quote]

I think the team would be more comfortable playing Pryce or Redding before Kruger right now.

Kruger has a lot to learn and likely won't become a quality DE after just one off-season filling out his frame and working on his repertoire.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='MKdave' date='26 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1269620747' post='382891']
In my opinion, we very very very clearly have 3-4 personnel at this point in time. Haloti has never exhibited the pass rushing skills to suggest he'd be better in a 4-3, Gregg doesn't have those skills either. Cory Redding being a good interior pass rusher once upon a time does not justify playing 4-3. Pryce doesn't have the footspeed to play 4-3 DE anymore and Kruger is still an unknown. Ray isn't going to be able to handle too much of the coverage aspect of a 4-3 LB at this age, and Ellerbe looked a liability in coverage at times last season. The move makes sense for Gooden, but from what we've seen, do we want him to be our starting linebacker? JJ could play DE or OLB in the alignment, but neither optimizes his strengths like the 3-4 OLB position does. As for Suggs, from what I've seen of him with his hand in the ground he rushes better, but you take away from his run stopping abilities, and we payed him for his versatility, not his pass rushing prowess.
[/quote]

I think the reason we clearly have 3-4 personnel is because we have run the 3-4 scheme for the past 5 years, before Mattison took over. If you run a defense for 5-6 years I would hope the personnel on your team fits it.

As for Ellerbe, he improved his pass defense as the year went on. It almost seemed like that guy improved from week to week. His struggles came at the expense of him being a rookie imo, I think he'll be fine in pass coverage this year.

As for Ray, I'm not foolish enough to think he'll play forever, but with that being said, that man will have to show me he can't do something, before I put limitations on what he can do. I believe Ray would flourish in any system we use.

On the Dline is where I would have to agree with you. Pryce is not a 4-3 DE and Gregg is better as a nose. Those are 2 of the reasons I feel the Ravens were forced to play guys out of position last year.

However, I feel like Ngata has been playing out of position since he was drafted. Imo the closer Ngata is to the ball the more effective he'll be. I think Ngata would do great in a 4-3 defense, and be even more of a dominate force, much like he was in college.

Redding will take a lot of snaps away from Gregg, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like Alex Brown added(if the Bears do indeed cut him) or a speedy rookie to start to take snaps away from Pryce.

I think not re-signing Bannan and Edwards and bringing in Redding is a sign of the Ravens building that 4-3 personnel.

Remember we haven't even gotten to the draft yet. There is not guarantee that guys like Gregg and Pryce will make it past the final cuts of training. As tough as it would be to lose a guy like gregg, it's a possibility.

[Shammy]

[quote name='sporaven' date='26 March 2010 - 08:02 AM' timestamp='1269604936' post='382821']
Good post, my problem is that you are comparing what they did in a 3-4 to what they could do in a 4-3. In a 3-4 the DL job is to soak up blockers and stop inside runs, then to rush the passer. Very few 3-4 DL get credit because they don't get sacks (exception richard seymour), but in fact I believe that if haloti ngata were in a 4-3 he would be the best known DT in the game. This is why Albert Haynesworth is throwing a fit over transitioning to a 3-4 in Washington.
[/quote]

on top of that haynesworth did what last year in a 4-3 ... da guys overrated ... anyways i think we've got personnel to mix it up but basically a 3-4 ... isnt there a 3-4 when one of the OLB put their hand in da ground but sometimes still drop back ?

[MKdave]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='26 March 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1269630218' post='383006']
I think the reason we clearly have 3-4 personnel is because we have run the 3-4 scheme for the past 5 years, before Mattison took over. If you run a defense for 5-6 years I would hope the personnel on your team fits it.


[b]No question. But if you've got 3-4 personnel you play a 3-4. You don't try to force the puzzle piece where it doesn't go. [/b]

As for Ellerbe, he improved his pass defense as the year went on. It almost seemed like that guy improved from week to week. His struggles came at the expense of him being a rookie imo, I think he'll be fine in pass coverage this year.


[b]While I did notice improvements in his pass coverage skills, he really only came out in 3-4 packages, and 3-4 LBs generally have easier coverages to deal with. A 4-3 LB, even the Sam, has to be basically a big safety, and I think Ellerbe is too slow to do stay with quicker backs and TEs.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
As for Ray, I'm not foolish enough to think he'll play forever, but with that being said, that man will have to show me he can't do something, before I put limitations on what he can do. I believe Ray would flourish in any system we use.


[b]I think, Ray's pass coverage ability has already fallen off. And he's another year older. Don't forget that a 4-3 MLB occasionally is called back into a deep zone, which I think is now beyond Ray. [/b]

However, I feel like Ngata has been playing out of position since he was drafted. Imo the closer Ngata is to the ball the more effective he'll be. I think Ngata would do great in a 4-3 defense, and be even more of a dominate force, much like he was in college.


[b]And I'm willing to see him given a few more snaps at 4-3 DT to show that he can have an impact at that position, because all indicators say he should tear it up as a DT. But he's looked so much more comfortable at NT that I don't think it's worth pursuing it for much longer. [/b]

Redding will take a lot of snaps away from Gregg, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a guy like Alex Brown added(if the Bears do indeed cut him) or a speedy rookie to start to take snaps away from Pryce.

[b]I agree, but I'd still like to see the position addressed through the draft, providing an appropriate player is available. None of those guys are long term answers. [/b]

I think not re-signing Bannan and Edwards and bringing in Redding is a sign of the Ravens building that 4-3 personnel.


[b]It certainly does look that way, but I don't think it's a great idea. I think in a passing league a 3-4 is a far stronger alignment if you've got the players for it, and we obviously do, given our success out of it. To me it seems like we're compromising the defense both in personnel and scheme by trying to force the defense into a 4-3. [/b]

Remember we haven't even gotten to the draft yet. There is not guarantee that guys like Gregg and Pryce will make it past the final cuts of training. As tough as it would be to lose a guy like gregg, it's a possibility.

[b]I don't think it'd be prudent to cut a guy like Gregg, even if we're transitioning into a pure 4-3. He's too stout a run defender. You won't find someone like that on the street. Pryce though, I agree, could be done.
[/b][/quote]

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='MKdave' date='26 March 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1269643513' post='383137']

[/quote]

I would agree, you run a defense that fits your personnel. However, like I've said before the Ravens were a 4-3 defense of Marvin and Mike Nolan successful used the 3-4 with pretty much the same personnel we had under the 4-3. So I'm willing to give Mattison a chance to see what he can do. I already like what I hear so far this offseason.

As for Ellerbe, I think you should go back and watch more of the games the Ravens played during the second half of the season and during the playoffs. Ellerbe never really came off the field, regardless of if we were in a 3-4 4-3 or nickel. Now we did sub McClain in at times, but Ellerbe was usually the LB lining up with Ray in most sets. Ellerbe did a good job of covering WRs and), did he struggle at times or get beat some? Yes, but what rookie hasn't. Also Ellerbe did a pretty good job of blitzing. I think the guy is a 3 down backer.

In Ray's case, I look for him to be charging forward more this year, meaning I thin you will see Ray blitz much more this season. Has Ray lost a step? Maybe, but again Ray has proven time and time again that he is a special guy. Dropping in a deep zone isn't nearly as bad as playing man to man. Ray is a smart savvy guy, I'm sure he'll find a way to get the job done. People always say he's lost a step, but his film study puts him in such great position that it kind of erases that lost step.
The thing about Ngata is he rarely plays the nose in our 3-4. He's the DE, which means he is rushing against elite tackles some times. There is a article on BR.com that has Ngata talking about improving his pass rush. He basically says that he had been focusing on run stopping his whole career and even in college, that now trying to be a pass rusher is strange. I'm interested to see how he performs this season while actually working on his pass rush.

As far as this being a pass happy league being a good reason to stick with the 3-4, I actually think it's the opposite. If the Ravens can be a team that puts heavy pressure on a QB with only 4 guys, then we would have 7 guys back defending what....4 or 5 receiving options? Think about how the Colts smothered our backs and WRs because they only needed for guys to get pressure. Or better yet think back to the '07 Super bowl. The Giants harassed Brady with that 4 man rush and threw the Pats whole offense off, because they were able to double both Moss and Welker. So I don't think the 4-3 would be that bad.

I don't think Gregg will be cut, I was just saying it's possible. Gregg is too much of an asset right now for us to cut him.

[RoflDogs]

It would be stupid to cut Gregg. He is arguably the best run defender on the team

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='MKdave' date='26 March 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1269620747' post='382891']
In my opinion, we very very very clearly have 3-4 personnel at this point in time. Haloti has never exhibited the pass rushing skills to suggest he'd be better in a 4-3, Gregg doesn't have those skills either. Cory Redding being a good interior pass rusher once upon a time does not justify playing 4-3. Pryce doesn't have the footspeed to play 4-3 DE anymore and Kruger is still an unknown. Ray isn't going to be able to handle too much of the coverage aspect of a 4-3 LB at this age, and Ellerbe looked a liability in coverage at times last season. The move makes sense for Gooden, but from what we've seen, do we want him to be our starting linebacker? JJ could play DE or OLB in the alignment, but neither optimizes his strengths like the 3-4 OLB position does. As for Suggs, from what I've seen of him with his hand in the ground he rushes better, but you take away from his run stopping abilities, and we payed him for his versatility, not his pass rushing prowess.
[/quote]


Ding ding ding ding ding.. nailed it. Ravens have spent years drafting personnel to fit Rex's unique 46 defense and a dominate top tier 3/4 defense. It's lunacy to attempt a switch back to a now ancient 4/3 defense especially given the idea of winning now instead of hoping for later.

[rastaman831226]

[quote name='MKdave' date='26 March 2010 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1269643513' post='383137']

[/quote]
Dang...ding ding ding again MKdave!! Like your stuff- you're smokin' and I'm becoming a big fan. . But here's the big question-the Ravens still possess the personnel to remain the best 3/4 in the AFC and thus all of football, but do you think DC Gregg Mattison is the right coach to either improve on the 3/4 or bring back the Organized Chaos days of Rex Ryan's exotic 46 defense?

[Dubs]

I think it only limits a defense especially ours which is based around player versatility to say we are a 34 or a 43 or thats what we should be..Both have great advantages and disadvantages to players on our team so any smart defensive coordinator which Mattison is will be able to put the right guys on the field in the right position.

Honestly if i had to pick a defense for the future would be a 2-5-4...not saying we should but i think its interesting. Get two stout guys in the middle who are better run stuffers then pass rusher (ala Ngata and Gregg), Two hybrid type almost 34 OLBs but who are strong at the LOS and play on it, either hand in the ground or not, depending on look who can either rush or drop(ala Suggs and JJ...on other teams a guy like Trent Cole), then you have three LBers similar to a 43, OLBs must be active players who can rush the passer, stuff the run, etc (Ellerbe types) and an ILB who roams (ray ray)...Not saying it should happen or even will just thought it was interesting

My main thoughts on the issue use our versatile players to provide versatile looks

[MKdave]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='27 March 2010 - 02:03 AM' timestamp='1269655424' post='383220']
I would agree, you run a defense that fits your personnel. However, like I've said before the Ravens were a 4-3 defense of Marvin and Mike Nolan successful used the 3-4 with pretty much the same personnel we had under the 4-3. So I'm willing to give Mattison a chance to see what he can do. I already like what I hear so far this offseason.

As for Ellerbe, I think you should go back and watch more of the games the Ravens played during the second half of the season and during the playoffs. Ellerbe never really came off the field, regardless of if we were in a 3-4 4-3 or nickel. Now we did sub McClain in at times, but Ellerbe was usually the LB lining up with Ray in most sets. Ellerbe did a good job of covering WRs and), did he struggle at times or get beat some? Yes, but what rookie hasn't. Also Ellerbe did a pretty good job of blitzing. I think the guy is a 3 down backer.

In Ray's case, I look for him to be charging forward more this year, meaning I thin you will see Ray blitz much more this season. Has Ray lost a step? Maybe, but again Ray has proven time and time again that he is a special guy. Dropping in a deep zone isn't nearly as bad as playing man to man. Ray is a smart savvy guy, I'm sure he'll find a way to get the job done. People always say he's lost a step, but his film study puts him in such great position that it kind of erases that lost step.
The thing about Ngata is he rarely plays the nose in our 3-4. He's the DE, which means he is rushing against elite tackles some times. There is a article on BR.com that has Ngata talking about improving his pass rush. He basically says that he had been focusing on run stopping his whole career and even in college, that now trying to be a pass rusher is strange. I'm interested to see how he performs this season while actually working on his pass rush.

As far as this being a pass happy league being a good reason to stick with the 3-4, I actually think it's the opposite. If the Ravens can be a team that puts heavy pressure on a QB with only 4 guys, then we would have 7 guys back defending what....4 or 5 receiving options? Think about how the Colts smothered our backs and WRs because they only needed for guys to get pressure. Or better yet think back to the '07 Super bowl. The Giants harassed Brady with that 4 man rush and threw the Pats whole offense off, because they were able to double both Moss and Welker. So I don't think the 4-3 would be that bad.

I don't think Gregg will be cut, I was just saying it's possible. Gregg is too much of an asset right now for us to cut him.
[/quote]

I agree or at least can see your point in all of your argument, and at this point would just be repeating what I've already said in repost, but on the subject of 3-4 versus 4-3 against the pass, while I wouldn't contest there have been great 4-3 defenses, including our and maybe *the* best ever, I just think that schematically it makes more sense to have the potential of a free rusher. It's not a blitz if you send 1 LB out of a 3-4 arrangement, but he has a far great chance to get to the QB untouched if the play is well drawn up than any lineman in the 4-3. And a linebacker is going to get there faster than a DL can, which can only mean good things for the defense.
And also while we're on the subject, you rightly pointed out that having 4 linemen that can penetrate can be harrowing for a QB... but do we really have 4 linemen that can do that? Suggs' pass rushing arc will have to be tightened I feel if we move to a 4-3, not that I think he will struggle with that but you never know. Ngata has all the explosion to excel in that role but as we have already discussed he hasn't done it thus far. And Redding was once a top interior pass rusher but there is a reason we picked him up weeks into free agency. But as you said there is the draft upcoming and as I said i'd like to see the D-line addressed so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Ravensfan23]

MKdave, I think we're on the same page pretty much. You're right, having the possibility of a free LB rushing the QB is great.

However, I'm not saying the Ravens shouldn't be in a 3-4. All I'm saying is that the Ravens have brought in a DC that specializes in running the 4-3.

Mattison has been a 4-3 DC for close to 10 years, would you really feel comfortable having him learn to be 3-4 guy? I would think no, you want him teaching what he knows, not what he just learned yesterday.

So with Mattison as our DC, I feel we'll be running a heavy 4-3 defense, with different packages mixed in. The Ravens decided to bring Mattison in, knowing his background. So they must be willing to make the commitment to change.

Is it the right move? We'll find out as the year goes on.