"Elite" Receivers

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='die_hard_raven' date='18 February 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1266555417' post='362233']
I'm sure this article will have new receiver posts going crazy tomorrow.

http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription.aspx?EntryId=3344
[/quote]

Wilson covers the Ravens well but nothing in that link is shocking news.

[Purple]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='18 February 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1266548985' post='362183']
But different positions notwithstanding, I'm referring to the notion of giving up too much for someone who [i]could[/i] become the best of all time but isn't guaranteed to be. My point I was making was that success is not guaranteed and that no amount of prognostication or prior success can accurately predict future success to [i]that[/i] extent. I'm not comparing a WR to a RB position-wise.

If you want a more apt example, look at Keyshawn Johnson. In Johnson's first four seasons, he averaged 1027 yards per season. Brandon Marshall, meanwhile, is averaging 1004.75 yards in his first four years. Johnson got off to a promising start, with his production increasing each of those four seasons -- but look where Johnson is now. Is Johnson considered a Hall of Famer? Highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if an argument can be made for Marshall eventually becoming the best of all-time if the numbers are similar to a guy who flamed out. Even more strikingly, Jerry Rice outpaces Marshall by almost 1000 whole yards in his first four seasons. If Jerry Rice is the greatest of all-time, how can a guy like Marshall expect to catch up if he keeps gambling with his career by demanding trades and missing games due to suspension or injury?
[/quote]
First of all, it's funny that you even aggregate Marshall's first [b]four[/b] years of play when you know he started only one game in his rookie year. You're using that to skew the averages in favor of your argument. That's like saying you live in a neighborhood of 5 houses--where everyone makes $100,000 a year, but one guy on the block makes $1,000,000 a year. So the average of the neighborhood's income is $280,000. That is not a representative average. Neither is factoring in Marshall's rookie season. And the point is not whether he is or isn't better than Rice. We aren't competing against Rice. But we know he's really freaking good and he has skill. Your argument is that he's not [b]guaranteed[/b] to be good if we get him? That's worth staying away? What can possibly be guaranteed in any aspect of football? The Ravens signed Suggs to a big deal because they felt he would be good in the future, as he has demonstrated through the production of his previous seasons. He's not [b]guaranteed[/b] to be worth a penny. No player is.

And Keyshawn Johnson's numbers aren't even close to Marshalls. In his first three seasons as a starter, Johnson averaged 80 receptions a year. Marshall averages 102. Johnson stayed at his 80 reception + 1000 yard averages for his whole career. If Marshall keeps his averages of 100 receptions + 1260 yards, we'd be golden. Johnson actually played very consistently. His first few seasons are representative of his career. If Marshall's are too, that's amazing. Your argument was dependent upon Marshall's lack of a rookie season. Any comparison in the stats is because Johnson was a high draft pick so he started his rookie year while Marshall did not. If you want to hold it against Marshall that he's a 4th round pick, go ahead.

[BmoreLAT52]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='18 February 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1266537470' post='361994']
Boldin should probably be in the "plausible" section.
[/quote]

Agreed, he has Larry Fitz and Steve Breaston alongside him and I dont see how Steve Smith(CAR) isnt an elite reciever

[Jamal]

I'm not saying it will happen, but maybe this whole experience has matured Marshall. What he did at training camp, was inexcusable, and I'm not defending him, but he didn't do anything after that (to my knowledge at least). I know what happened at the end of the season, but I think we can all agree on McDaniels being way too critical on players.

By no means am I saying its the same situation, but I remember reading about how immature Chris Carter used to be, and no one ever thought he'd take playing for a team seriously, but we all saw how he turned out.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Purple' date='19 February 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1266608800' post='362460']
First of all, it's funny that you even aggregate Marshall's first [b]four[/b] years of play when you know he started only one game in his rookie year. You're using that to skew the averages in favor of your argument.
[/QUOTE]
Marshall played in 15 games that rookie season, though; if Marshall was really destined to be the greatest of all-time, shouldn't he have made an immediate impact? Shouldn't his ability been enough to get him on the field? He only had Javon Walker and an aging and injured Rod Smith ahead of him. Walker commanded double-teams while Smith was largely ineffective.

[quote name='Purple' date='19 February 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1266608800' post='362460']
And the point is not whether he is or isn't better than Rice. We aren't competing against Rice. But we know he's really freaking good and he has skill.
[/quote]
You said earlier in the thread:

[quote name='Purple' date='18 February 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1266539366' post='362016']
The difference between your POV and mine is that [b]I believe he could become the best WR in NFL history.[/b] I think that's worth any draft pick.
[/QUOTE]
How is that not competing with Rice, if Rice is almost unanimously considered the best WR in NFL history? If the assertion is made that Marshall could become the best to ever play the game, then shouldn't the comparison be made with the player currently considered the best to ever play?

I do not believe that Marshall is worth the value that you assign to him, largely because he would command multiple draft picks [i]and[/i] an expensive contract extension to compensate for the years he was underpaid. That would essentially mean the Ravens overpaying to make up for what the Broncos failed to do. Marshall is not a difference-maker worth that price tag, especially when the illusion is that the team is only "one player away" -- no team is one player away, so to take this type of gamble is ill-advised, especially with a player whose track record isn't exactly that of the team's mold.

[Purple]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='19 February 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1266610046' post='362475']
Marshall played in 15 games that rookie season, though; if Marshall was really destined to be the greatest of all-time, shouldn't he have made an immediate impact? Shouldn't his ability been enough to get him on the field? He only had Javon Walker and an aging and injured Rod Smith ahead of him. Walker commanded double-teams while Smith was largely ineffective.


You said earlier in the thread:


How is that not competing with Rice, if Rice is almost unanimously considered the best WR in NFL history? If the assertion is made that Marshall could become the best to ever play the game, then shouldn't the comparison be made with the player currently considered the best to ever play?

I do not believe that Marshall is worth the value that you assign to him, largely because he would command multiple draft picks [i]and[/i] an expensive contract extension to compensate for the years he was underpaid. That would essentially mean the Ravens overpaying to make up for what the Broncos failed to do. Marshall is not a difference-maker worth that price tag, especially when the illusion is that the team is only "one player away" -- no team is one player away, so to take this type of gamble is ill-advised, especially with a player whose track record isn't exactly that of the team's mold.
[/quote]
I do think that Marshall could be the best WR ever. But what I was saying is that I shouldn't have to sell you on that to justify trading for him. You'll only trade a first and a third for a guy that you KNOW is the best ever? Man those must be some dynamite players you're going to get with the first and third picks. Two hall of famers I imagine. They're guaranteed to be good.

And really, you think that because he didn't start the whole year in his rookie season that he's not good enough? Oh yeah, you forgot the part that suffered a torn PCL in the preseason, and that once Jake Plummer (who was bloody awful that year, the last one of his career) was benched, Jay Cutler made his first start and Marshall scored a 71 yard TD that won them the game. "He caught a pass in each of the Broncos' final seven games of the season, totaling 18 receptions, 287 receiving yards and 1 touchdown over that stretch."

It's funny that you started going after my wording, using semantics, instead of actually establishing your own argument--which now appears to be "[b]Marshall is not a difference-maker worth that price tag[/b]." That opinion has already been voiced multiple times on this thread.

And btw, good job of totally sidestepping your analysis of Keyshawn and Marshall when I called you out on it. Don't worry, I would, too.

[Ed_Reed20]

Shouldn't Marshall's contract be an issue well? With all the key FAs that need to be re-signed this year and other key players' having contracts come to an end in the near future, would it be wise to sink 10 to 15 million in a WR?

I know Marshall is a Top 5 WR but giving up multiple picks for him and then paying a ton just doesn't seem like a good idea.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Purple' date='19 February 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1266608800' post='362460']
And Keyshawn Johnson's numbers aren't even close to Marshalls. In his first three seasons as a starter, Johnson averaged 80 receptions a year. Marshall averages 102. Johnson stayed at his 80 reception + 1000 yard averages for his whole career. If Marshall keeps his averages of 100 receptions + 1260 yards, we'd be golden. Johnson actually played very consistently. His first few seasons are representative of his career. If Marshall's are too, that's amazing. Your argument was dependent upon Marshall's lack of a rookie season. Any comparison in the stats is because Johnson was a high draft pick so he started his rookie year while Marshall did not. If you want to hold it against Marshall that he's a 4th round pick, go ahead.
[/quote]
My argument isn't dependent on Marshall's lack of a rookie season, it's dependent primarily on external factors that have and will affect his on-field production. His desire for a new contract will affect the likelihood of producing, as the trend has held that players (specifically wide receivers) awarded a hefty contract often have a lackluster season immediately following the monumental payday. For every instance of a Larry Fitzgerald playing well after an extension, there's a T.J. Houshmandzadeh or a Roy Williams. Additionally, where is the motivation to continue playing well after a big payday? Has Marshall demonstrated any true passion for the game in his few short years, given how far he was willing to go to force a trade? Note the mood swings, where Marshall went from being mollified by the 6-0 start to lashing out once again once the team started losing. If you can't handle losing as a team, how can you handle winning?

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Purple' date='19 February 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1266611477' post='362494']
I do think that Marshall could be the best WR ever. But what I was saying is that I shouldn't have to sell you on that to justify trading for him. You'll only trade a first and a third for a guy that you KNOW is the best ever? Man those must be some dynamite players you're going to get with the first and third picks. Two hall of famers I imagine. They're guaranteed to be good.
[/QUOTE]
Why [i]shouldn't[/i] there be any justification for trading for Marshall? Shouldn't every trade or transaction be questioned before it's committed and executed? You're speaking in absolutes, but there are no absolutes in what we "know" about Marshall's future production. Just as I assume that he won't be able to maintain his level of production, you also assume that he will continue to produce. We know not of what will happen, but the external factors I mentioned in my other post strongly indicate that this has the makings of another Terrell Owens situation where the risk outweighs the reward, especially when the reward isn't necessarily a Super Bowl championship. As I stated before, there is no such thing as being "one player away" and merely having one guy on the field doesn't add another win to the record.

Speaking to the draft picks themselves, it's not so much the players that will be acquired with those picks that I'm concerned with -- it's merely giving Ozzie draft-day ammunition to acquire more talent with those picks as leverage. Ozzie's success with draft picks speak for itself, and given his success rate, it's not as if the unproven commodities would be so bad. And it's certainly not as if Brandon Marshall is destined to be a surefire first-ballot Hall of Famer, either.

[QUOTE]
And really, you think that because he didn't start the whole year in his rookie season that he's not good enough? Oh yeah, you forgot the part that suffered a torn PCL in the preseason, and that once Jake Plummer (who was bloody awful that year, the last one of his career) was benched, Jay Cutler made his first start and Marshall scored a 71 yard TD that won them the game. "He caught a pass in each of the Broncos' final seven games of the season, totaling 18 receptions, 287 receiving yards and 1 touchdown over that stretch."
[/quote]
Injury or not, if he was able to get on the field for 15 games, he'd have been able to produce. Just because a guy is slowed down by injury doesn't mean an excuse needs to be made; if they're good enough to get on the field, then they have no excuses for a poor performance. Otherwise, why play if you'll only play poorly? Why not rest the injury so as to prevent further injury?

[AsianRice]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='19 February 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1266612085' post='362499']
Has Marshall demonstrated any true passion for the game in his few short years, given how far he was willing to go to force a trade? Note the mood swings, where Marshall went from being mollified by the 6-0 start to lashing out once again once the team started losing. If you can't handle losing as a team, how can you handle winning?
[/quote]

Good point for Marshall's impassion about the game. It said alot about character who can't handle the losing and be part of the team when they have ups and downs situation. Possibly, he's spoiled with his natural talents and NFL elite body-built type for WR.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='AsianRice' date='19 February 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1266612823' post='362505']
Good point for Marshall's impassion about the game. It said alot about character who can't handle the losing and be part of the team when they have ups and downs situation. [b]Possibly, he's spoiled with his natural talents and NFL elite body-built type for WR.
[/b][/quote]
Hence why I'm drawing the comparison to Terrell Owens. The "Baby T.O." nickname seems a bit appropriate now.

I'm not denying that the talent is there -- but it's not talent that I believe is destined for the Hall of Fame nor will he likely have a long career that will continue to be fruitful and productive.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='19 February 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1266611801' post='362495']
Shouldn't Marshall's contract be an issue well? With all the key FAs that need to be re-signed this year and other key players' having contracts come to an end in the near future, would it be wise to sink 10 to 15 million in a WR?

I know Marshall is a Top 5 WR but giving up multiple picks for him and then paying a ton just doesn't seem like a good idea.
[/quote]

Well, we can't pay him a ton thanks to the Final 8 Rule, so any new contract will be after the '10-'11 season, by which time we should be able to afford it with Gaither and Ngata's contract situations being "resolved," in theory...

[poedacrow]

I think the OP' original point was that there is a plethora of FA available and that the Ravens won't be the only team looking to shore up that need.

Why sign Donte Stallworth to a 1 year contract if Marshall or Boldin are being contemplated?

SI.com is predicting a lukewarm FA period this year and I'm inclined to agree. I think the Ravens, like most organizations, will go slow with this...there is a bottom line to protect and an uncertain future in 2011.

Anyway, I'm going to break into the offices at the Castle, get a peek at that Big Board and
settle this once and for all...

[Elmo]

[quote name='BmoreLAT52' date='19 February 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1266609374' post='362467']
Agreed, he has Larry Fitz and Steve Breaston alongside him and I dont see how Steve Smith(CAR) isnt an elite reciever
[/quote]

Making this thread, I wanted to put Boldin in the "plausible" section, but I worried about the "Boldin will be what gets this organisation over the hump"-people, and chse to put him in "elite"-category... Little did I know B. Marshall would take over the show anyways, lol...

Steve Smith (CAR) is in the "plausible" section because of age, but first and foremost declining stats over the last couple of seasons... 2 years ago he was slam-dunk "elite"... Now I felt he had to go "plausible"

[Elmo]

[quote name='poedacrow' date='19 February 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1266615288' post='362532']
I think the OP' original point was that there is a plethora of FA available and that the Ravens won't be the only team looking to shore up that need.

Why sign Donte Stallworth to a 1 year contract if Marshall or Boldin are being contemplated?

SI.com is predicting a lukewarm FA period this year and I'm inclined to agree. I think the Ravens, like most organizations, will go slow with this...there is a bottom line to protect and an uncertain future in 2011.

Anyway, I'm going to break into the offices at the Castle, get a peek at that Big Board and
settle this once and for all...
[/quote]

Almost... I was trying to show, that there are very few "elite" receivers in the NFL, and MANY, MANY teams in need of them... If one or two are available, chances are that teams inclined to spend big, will offer them more than we are willing to do...

[Purple]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' date='19 February 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1266612633' post='362501']
Why [i]shouldn't[/i] there be any justification for trading for Marshall? Shouldn't every trade or transaction be questioned before it's committed and executed? You're speaking in absolutes, but there are no absolutes in what we "know" about Marshall's future production. Just as I assume that he won't be able to maintain his level of production, you also assume that he will continue to produce. We know not of what will happen, but the external factors I mentioned in my other post strongly indicate that this has the makings of another Terrell Owens situation where the risk outweighs the reward, especially when the reward isn't necessarily a Super Bowl championship. As I stated before, there is no such thing as being "one player away" and merely having one guy on the field doesn't add another win to the record.

Speaking to the draft picks themselves, it's not so much the players that will be acquired with those picks that I'm concerned with -- it's merely giving Ozzie draft-day ammunition to acquire more talent with those picks as leverage. Ozzie's success with draft picks speak for itself, and given his success rate, it's not as if the unproven commodities would be so bad. And it's certainly not as if Brandon Marshall is destined to be a surefire first-ballot Hall of Famer, either.


Injury or not, if he was able to get on the field for 15 games, he'd have been able to produce. Just because a guy is slowed down by injury doesn't mean an excuse needs to be made; if they're good enough to get on the field, then they have no excuses for a poor performance. Otherwise, why play if you'll only play poorly? Why not rest the injury so as to prevent further injury?
[/quote]
First of all, Houshmanzadeh's big payday was because he benefited from a weak FA class. His numbers have never been amazing--he gets a lot of receptions but that's it. Only two 1,000 yard seasons in his career. This year was a 900 yard season for him. That's on par with his numbers. They got what the paid for. This is what they should have expected from him. Roy Williams only had one good season in his career and Jerry Jones made a dumb move on an unproven player that he fell in love with.

Brandon Marshall is more proven than all of these guys. The fact is that those guys returned to their average numbers. If Marshall gets a 900 or 800 yard year after a big payday, it will be a total shock. Your comparisons were, once again, a little off. Your portraying Marshall's resume as if he has put up Roy Williams caliber numbers, or Houshmanzadeh caliber numbers. He's put up far better, far more consistent numbers than any of them. Therefore, signing him would give us a much clearer projection as to his future. A bad signing would be if we signed Antonio Bryant to a big deal. That is someone that you can compare to Roy Williams. One good season, not much else.
-

His attitude? Some consider Randy Moss to be the best ever, and he's been known to just "give up" in the middle of games. Marshall didn't give up midway through the season. He's just very emotional. When the season was in a tailspin, he got angry. That's understandable.

-
You're the one speaking in absolutes when you said Marshall "could become the best of all time but isn't guaranteed to be." You want a guarantee that he will be the best ever. You said so in your post. Sorry but you'll never get that certainty from any player. But, three years of almost the exact same production (100+ receptions each year, then 1120 yards, 1265 yards, and 1325 yards) is more consistent than probably any active WR streak in the league, with the exception of maybe Wes Welker. It seems that your disdain for Marshall and the prospect of trading for him stems from genuine contempt. You just don't like the guy or have faith in his skills for whatever reason: "nor will he likely have a long career that will continue to be fruitful and productive." Any NFL analyst will tell you the opposite. You don't think he'll be productive? I can't argue that. It's just too ridiculous.

[poedacrow]

[quote name='Elmo' date='19 February 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1266615578' post='362539']
Almost... I was trying to show, that there are very few "elite" receivers in the NFL, and MANY, MANY teams in need of them... If one or two are available, chances are that teams inclined to spend big, will offer them more than we are willing to do...
[/quote]

I see your point...the few "elite" receivers available are going to command the biggest bucks...a "seller's market" if you will..and the Ravens won't play that game...
and a great post btw

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Purple' date='19 February 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1266615597' post='362540']
First of all, Houshmanzadeh's big payday was because he benefited from a weak FA class. His numbers have never been amazing--he gets a lot of receptions but that's it. Only two 1,000 yard seasons in his career. This year was a 900 yard season for him. That's on par with his numbers. They got what the paid for. This is what they should have expected from him. Roy Williams only had one good season in his career and Jerry Jones made a dumb move on an unproven player that he fell in love with.

Brandon Marshall is more proven than all of these guys. The fact is that those guys returned to their average numbers. If Marshall gets a 900 or 800 yard year after a big payday, it will be a total shock. Your comparisons were, once again, a little off. Your portraying Marshall's resume as if he has put up Roy Williams caliber numbers, or Houshmanzadeh caliber numbers. He's put up far better, far more consistent numbers than any of them. Therefore, signing him would give us a much clearer projection as to his future. A bad signing would be if we signed Antonio Bryant to a big deal. That is someone that you can compare to Roy Williams. One good season, not much else.
-

His attitude? Some consider Randy Moss to be the best ever, and he's been known to just "give up" in the middle of games. Marshall didn't give up midway through the season. He's just very emotional. When the season was in a tailspin, he got angry. That's understandable.

-
You're the one speaking in absolutes when you said Marshall "could become the best of all time but isn't guaranteed to be." You want a guarantee that he will be the best ever. You said so in your post. Sorry but you'll never get that certainty from any player. But, three years of almost the exact same production (100+ receptions each year, then 1120 yards, 1265 yards, and 1325 yards) is more consistent than probably any active WR streak in the league, with the exception of maybe Wes Welker. It seems that your disdain for Marshall and the prospect of trading for him stems from genuine contempt. You just don't like the guy or have faith in his skills for whatever reason: "nor will he likely have a long career that will continue to be fruitful and productive." Any NFL analyst will tell you the opposite. You don't think he'll be productive? I can't argue that. It's just too ridiculous.
[/quote]
- Weak free agent class notwithstanding, there are other options that could've been explored via trade, and trades will always offset the lack of available free agents; everyone has a price and teams in need will always overpay or raise the value beyond that which is par with the course

- I used Roy Williams as an example, primarily because he was the Lions' only receiving option until Calvin Johnson was drafted; similarly, Brandon Marshall has essentially been the Broncos' only receiving threat until Eddie Royal caught on, and even then, Royal has regressed. I would consider Reggie Wayne to be more consistent because he's produced in spite of having had talent opposite him.

- I'm not sure that an excuse can be made for Marshall's behavior, particularly when this is a [i]team[/i] sport. Again, if you can't lose with the guy, how can you win with him? Sure, he produced -- but where did that take his team? If he couldn't be the difference-maker on a losing team, how can he be that much more significant of a difference-maker on a winning team? The only exception to that rule would be Barry Sanders, whose surrounding team was so dismal that he couldn't do it all. Marshall, on the other hand, has talent surrounding him in that locker room. No excuses there.

- The prospect of trading for Marshall and my disdain for him lies in two factors: again, behavior and finances. Financially, how can the team give him the contract he wants and still pay Haloti Ngata, Jared Gaither, Ben Grubbs, Sam Koch, and others? Also, what ammunition does Ozzie have to work with in maneuvering in the draft if he is without two of his first-day picks? This team has far more areas to improve or build upon than just WR, so every pick will matter even if the production there isn't immediate. behaviorially, Brandon Marshall is not the type of player this team needs; again, if you can't lose with the guy, how do you expect to win with him? Who says that Marshall will be able to endure the eventual struggles that this team will have? Every team struggles at some point, so who says that Marshall will have patience and tolerate the losing here as opposed to in Denver if it gets to that point?

At this point, no changing either of our minds, so agree to disagree.

My prerogative still is that this team needs a WR -- but Brandon Marshall is not it.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' date='19 February 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1266614490' post='362519']
Well, we can't pay him a ton thanks to the Final 8 Rule, so any new contract will be after the '10-'11 season, by which time we should be able to afford it with Gaither and Ngata's contract situations being "resolved," in theory...
[/quote]

So hypothetically, if the Ravens trade for Marshall, what would his contract situation be?

And to the people who believe the Ravens can afford to trade away multiple picks, look at the Ravens' history and the players they've selected in the very position they're in this year. They've landed talent like Ray, Reed, Heap and Oher(I'm probably forgetting others).

So to trade away a first and another pick just because WR is one need on the team rather than trust one of the better talent evaluating FOs in the league doesn't make sense.

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

Look at how much controversy, disagreement, and some down right nasty postings Brandon Marshall has caused in this forum, not to mention how every threads goes off topic to him. Now, try to imagine that on the Ravens team and I think you'll see the objections to him. A legend in his own mind! We can and will do better without him. One man ain't the answer! [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/deadhorse.gif[/img]

[Moiles]

I just read that There saying Brandon Marshall could be had for a second rounder. Via Espn Insider. I know its only specualtion but how awesome would it be to get B Marsh for a second and Troy Smith.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Moiles' date='22 February 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1266854743' post='363492']
I just read that There saying Brandon Marshall could be had for a second rounder. Via Espn Insider. I know its only specualtion but how awesome would it be to get B Marsh for a second and Troy Smith.
[/quote]
Espn Insider is usually just random speculation. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='22 February 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1266863113' post='363542']
Espn Insider is usually just random speculation. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
[/quote]

Me neither, but boy would that be another steal...

P.S. Who is Ovie laying out in your sig?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Moiles' date='22 February 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1266854743' post='363492']
I just read that There saying Brandon Marshall could be had for a second rounder. Via Espn Insider. I know its only specualtion but how awesome would it be to get B Marsh for a second and Troy Smith.
[/quote]

A 2nd round pick for Marshall would be interesting but forget about Troy. He has little trade value.

[trooper1973]

I don't see us getting a plausible or elite receiver.they will probably want too high of a picks for them and too much $.maybe Stallworth will do good for us.or maybe we will get a wr in the draft.dolphins only have Ginn and he drops the ball like Clayton.so they are having a tough time in that position too.alot of teams are

[Romo Ravens]

2nd plus a 4th? If you can get Marshall for a 2nd round draft pick, that is an absolute steal. We would be crazy not to do that.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' date='22 February 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1266863364' post='363549']
Me neither, but boy would that be another steal...

P.S. Who is Ovie laying out in your sig?
[/quote]
He's destroying Jagr during Sunday's game.

As negative as it may be, I just can't get Holt/TO/Boldin(2009) out of my mind. If the price were that low, I'll bet someone else would beat us to the punch, so to speak.

Anyway, I'm beginning to feel uneasy about Marshall. The last time a team made a big trade for a flashy Denver Bronco with an attitude problem, it didn't work out too well.

[DocMartin]

[quote name='Elmo' date='18 February 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1266529637' post='361926']
Ok... So constantly the Ravens make a move, and people will say: "Well as long as we still get Marshall or Boldin, it's fine with me"

So I decided to look into it a little bit... There are 32 teams in the NFL. Must be an "elite" receiver for everone right? Especially since every team has more than one receiver.

So I made a list of the receivers, not considering availability at all, to see how many "veteran, deep threat no. 1 receivers that we totally MUST get" (As you might have noticed I'm not a big supporter of the "trade the world away for a receiver"-idea.) Here goes:

"Elite - no.1"
Larry Fitz
Boldin
C. Johnson (Megatron)
Andre Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Ochocinco
Randy Moss
Miles Austin
V-Jax
Reggie Wayne
Roddy White
Colston
[b]Total in this category: 12 receivers[/b]

"Plausible no. 1"
Wes Welker
Sidney Rice
Dwayne Bowe
Greg Jennings
Lee Evans
Mike Sims-Walker
Steve Smith (Car.)
Steve Smith (NYG)
R. Meachem
[b]Total in this category: 9 receivers[/b]

"Long-shots"
Malcolm Floyd
Braylon Edwards
Austin Collie
Pierre Garcon
Plaxico Burress
T.O.
Anthony Gonzales (My personal sleeper trade. The emergence of the 2 young colts stars might make Gonzo interesting for us)
[b]total in this category: 7 receivers[/b]

Total receivers who might be no. 1 should we get them: 28

In other words... We won't be the only team looking to add these players IF they should be available... So what I want to know is, why do people think the price of a guy in the top 12 above here (eg. Boldin or Marshall) should be anywhere near affordable without mortgaging the future?

Well, glad to get that of my chest...


Disclaimer: I probably left out a handful of recceivers on my lists above... Be glad to hear about them, 'cause I can't think of them right now. (Steelers receivers were left out on purpose as I would never think they'd belong on any of those 3 lists, lol)
[/quote]

Very lengthy breakdown, Elmo, nice try. Well, it's really much more simple this way. It all depends on Mason's status, which is the primary focus on offensive side.
1) If Mason returns for next season
- Ravens would not sign any big name, big money receiver,
instead get one in draft, would re-sign Clayton and have him & Stallworth compete for #2 spot, or have Clayton move to the slot
2) If Mason does not return for next season
- Ravens would re-sign Clayton, and try to sign big name, big money WR. If they wouldn't be succesfull, then they would re-sign K-Washington, draft a rookie in early round,
and have all including Stallworth competing for starting jobs.
P.S. Keep in mind, the key word is CONTINUITY IN THE SYSTEM, created by Cam Cameron. There are more pages in his playbook from San Diego days, he just doesn't have the long shot receiver, yet. We all hope, it will be soon.