Dog House

[Alexir]

Tony Lombardi wrote an article, like he does after every game, called The Good, The Bad, The Ugly and The Megan Fox.

Link Here:[url="http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2009/12/ravens-v-bears-good-bad-ugly-megan-fox.html"]Article[/url]

He brings up a point which I have been stressing since the guy first took over last September (first game that is).

He puts players in the doghouse for character issues or attitude issues.

That is fine with me if that's his coaching style. But what I don't like is that as soon as someone goes down he relies heavily on that person or persons.

You see it with Demetrius Williams because of Clayton and Washington being out. Even though Williams should have been on the field a long time a go because he is our best deep threat.

You saw it with Willis McGahee last year who was banged up but he started him in the playoffs because Le'ron and Ray couldn't get it done then.

Now I am hearing, that there is a good possibility that Chris McAlister will be returning to Baltimore.

My thing is he will be quick to bench someone because of any "Character" issues they might have but will start them as soon as its advantageous to him. I have met Williams, McGahee and Cmac at either training camp or public areas and they are good guys.

Then you got players on the field like Terrell Suggs who is being underproductive but Harbs won't give chances to Barnes or Kruger till towards the end of the season because "of special team issues".

I don't think thats a great way to run a team, and I really think we would have been in a better position right now if we had utilized these guys more in the beginning of the season.

I don't know I'm just ranting I guess, I'm glad we are the top Wild Card right now but I just wish everyone was utilized based on their performances and not on what HE thinks based on Character. Because last time I checked, these guys aren't getting penalites for taking their helmets off and chucking them or talking about to the refs. (That's not a shot at Mase, i have nothing but love for him, that's a shot that Harbs allows that but will be hypocritical about stuff that happens at practice).

[Bltravens]

I understand what your saying, there has to be some consistency in his actions. That was the second time Mason got flagged for barking at the refs this year, and Suggs with his off field thing. A team fine could have been in order, but you also have to understand like it or not star players get treated differently. Thats just the way it is.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='21 December 2009 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1261423662' post='318086']
I understand what your saying, there has to be some consistency in his actions. That was the second time Mason got flagged for barking at the refs this year, and Suggs with his off field thing. A team fine could have been in order, but you also have to understand like it or not star players get treated differently. Thats just the way it is.
[/quote]

First of all, he's the coach, and he can call on anyone he wants when he wants. If they don't like it they can offer up their cleats and walk out the door. The NFL isn't about someone's hurt feelings or a fan's perception of fairness. The NFL is about putting together a winning team. If people don't know how to shut up and perform, the bench is waiting for them.

Second, stars aren't getting special treatment. You look at one incident here and there. The staff sees everything, every day. If someone chumps out and doesn't show up for a season ready to play, someone else will step up. That's the way it rolls. If Chris McCallister doesn't like how Harbaugh treated him, he doesn't need to accept a deal.

Where is this football logic coming from? Did you guys ever play? I'll stick with Harbaugh's philosophy, heritage and pedigree over the, "I think the back-ups shouldn't have to play because they feel disrespected" mentality.

[Ed_Reed20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64fbqYQY&feature=related

[MiselisM]

I'm sorry but you lose this post when you say " I have met Williams, McGahee and Cmac at either training camp or public areas and they are good guys."

So what if they are good guys when you see them in public?? Does that mean they can never be bad? Or suppose you wanted a picture taken with Joe Flacco and he seemed non-interested in taking it. Does that make him a bad guy too? NFL is a tough game and tough decisions are made. For the most part I like Harbough. I think the players seem to like him, unless your actions off the field piss him off, then you dont deserve playing time.

[neepo13]

I like John Harbaugh as a coach and I dont neccessarily agree that knocking Cmac and McGahee off their high horses was a bad thing, but I dont really care for this dog house bussiness. Especially with guys like Williams and Barnes, who are producing in areas that we really needed help in. I dont mind the guy teaching guys a lesson but not at the expense of a game. He had two good replacements for McGahee and even for Cmac, he had Washington. Williams has played way better than Clayton and Washington in the limited time he's been the number 2. And Barnes is the only guy that consistantly harrasses the QB.

I've been calling for Dwill to get a shot since preseason. People have thrown him under the bus saying Washington out performed him, when really Dwill's preseason equaled that of Washington's except he didnt do all those silly dances so it went unnoticed. Three weeks in a row now this guy has battled for deep jump balls and every single time he either drew the PI flag or came down with the ball. We could have used that at the end of the Cinci game. Maybe we would have ended up in field goal range instead of with a turnover. Maybe if we had him in during the Colts game Flacco wouldnt have been forcing the ball to Ray Rice. Maybe the last drive at Minnasota would have ended with a TD instead of a botched Haushka field goal. If getting rid of Williams was Harbaugh's plan, I think, based on these last two games and if he continues to play well, he's going to have a hard time convincing upper management that he needs to go.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

you gotta break em down to build em up. you can tell harbaugh is an admirer of the military

[Ravnet]

[quote]You see it with Demetrius Williams because of Clayton and Washington being out. Even though Williams should have been on the field a long time a go because he is our best deep threat.
[/quote]
When two of your three starting wide receivers go down, what the heck else are you supposed to do? Williams knows the system, he is already on the team, and we know what Williams is. It would be a much bigger hassle, likely for fewer results, to pick up some guy off the street.

[quote]You saw it with Willis McGahee last year who was banged up but he started him in the playoffs because Le'ron and Ray couldn't get it done then.
[/quote]
When two running backs are outperforming another guy, what the heck else are you supposed to do? Rice/McClain were phenomenal last year, and Willis wasn't needed. Harbaugh didn't like his attitude, and ultimately didn't have to play him because he wasn't needed.

[quote]Now I am hearing, that there is a good possibility that Chris McAlister will be returning to Baltimore.[/quote]

I'd like to know where you are "hearing" from, because I'll be very surprised if McAlister comes back, even with our cornerback options one, two, and three going down.

I'll give you credit if Harbaugh goes backtrack on his repeated statements that McAlister is not an option due to character issues.

[quote]I have met Williams, McGahee and Cmac at either training camp or public areas and they are good guys.[/quote]

. . .

[Alexir]

Mods Delete this thread for me.

[Moderator 3]

[quote name='Alexir' date='21 December 2009 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1261439700' post='318292']
Mods Delete this thread for me.
[/quote]

Sorry, but starting a thread is like having children. Once they're released into the world, they have a life of their own. We can't delete a thread just because the OP doesn't like the direction it took.

[noy]

[quote name='Ravnet' date='21 December 2009 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1261439111' post='318277']
When two of your three starting wide receivers go down, what the heck else are you supposed to do? Williams knows the system, he is already on the team, and we know what Williams is. It would be a much bigger hassle, likely for fewer results, to pick up some guy off the street.
[/quote]

I believe you missed his point. The point was that D. Williams is clearly good enough to start over Clayton, so why is it that we are seeing him on the field now during a period of need instead of earlier in the season?

[quote]
When two running backs are outperforming another guy, what the heck else are you supposed to do? Rice/McClain were phenomenal last year, and Willis wasn't needed. Harbaugh didn't like his attitude, and ultimately didn't have to play him because he wasn't needed.
[/quote]

What? Rice was definitely not phenomenal last year, he showed flashes, but he was nowhere near his ability this year. However, I agree, McGahee was not in the right mindset last year and deserved all the benching he got when McClain was in.

[quote]
I'd like to know where you are "hearing" from, because I'll be very surprised if McAlister comes back, even with our cornerback options one, two, and three going down.

I'll give you credit if Harbaugh goes backtrack on his repeated statements that McAlister is not an option due to character issues.
[/quote]

Well, give credit where credit is due then.

Harbaugh has not impressed me so far this season, but then again none of the coaches have. They've all lacked consistency and they know it. I think they're lucky to have such a soft schedule at the end of the season, because even if we make the playoffs, there has to be a drastic improvement to even sniff the opportunity of a Superbowl/AFC Champ game.

However, I did not think from a military perspective on benching players. That's a pretty interesting idea.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='21 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1261427755' post='318135']
First of all, he's the coach, and he can call on anyone he wants when he wants. If they don't like it they can offer up their cleats and walk out the door. The NFL isn't about someone's hurt feelings or a fan's perception of fairness. The NFL is about putting together a winning team. If people don't know how to shut up and perform, the bench is waiting for them.

Second, stars aren't getting special treatment. You look at one incident here and there. The staff sees everything, every day. If someone chumps out and doesn't show up for a season ready to play, someone else will step up. That's the way it rolls. If Chris McCallister doesn't like how Harbaugh treated him, he doesn't need to accept a deal.

Where is this football logic coming from? Did you guys ever play? I'll stick with Harbaugh's philosophy, heritage and pedigree over the, "I think the back-ups shouldn't have to play because they feel disrespected" mentality.
[/quote]

First of all, its McAlister not McCallister.

Second of all, Harbs puts too much merit into character then he does with talent. I mean this whole draft was basically the Character Draft of 2009.

Harbs can have the my way or the highway coaching style all he wants but when he starts losing games because he is putting his favorites in and not putting members of the 53 man roster that he built in to help because of "issues". Well, dont put them on the team if you aren't going to utilized them. Everyone knows Williams is playing better football than Clayton. Everyone knows that anyone could replace Suggs right now because he is playing so half-assed its ridiculous.

I'm all about winning football games not putting people in time out to show them who's boss. This isn't high school, this is the NFL. If you dont want them, cut them. It's not like it matters if you have to pay them or not anyways cuz they will be riding the bench....

[neepo13]

[quote name='Alexir' date='21 December 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1261440653' post='318306']
[b]First of all, its McAllister not McCallister.[/b]

Second of all, Harbs puts too much merit into character then he does with talent. I mean this whole draft was basically the Character Draft of 2009.

Harbs can have the my way or the highway coaching style all he wants but when he starts losing games because he is putting his favorites in and not putting members of the 53 man roster that he built in to help because of "issues". Well, dont put them on the team if you aren't going to utilized them. Everyone knows Williams is playing better football than Clayton. Everyone knows that anyone could replace Suggs right now because he is playing so half-assed its ridiculous.

I'm all about winning football games not putting people in time out to show them who's boss. This isn't high school, this is the NFL. If you dont want them, cut them. It's not like it matters if you have to pay them or not anyways cuz they will be riding the bench....
[/quote]
Alexir strikes again. If you are going to correct someone you should get it right. Its McAlister. http://www.nfl.com/players/chrismcalister/profile?id=MCA544720

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='21 December 2009 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1261427755' post='318135']
First of all, he's the coach, and he can call on anyone he wants when he wants. If they don't like it they can offer up their cleats and walk out the door. The NFL isn't about someone's hurt feelings or a fan's perception of fairness. The NFL is about putting together a winning team. If people don't know how to shut up and perform, the bench is waiting for them.

Second, stars aren't getting special treatment. You look at one incident here and there. The staff sees everything, every day. If someone chumps out and doesn't show up for a season ready to play, someone else will step up. That's the way it rolls. If Chris McCallister doesn't like how Harbaugh treated him, he doesn't need to accept a deal.

Where is this football logic coming from? Did you guys ever play? I'll stick with Harbaugh's philosophy, heritage and pedigree over the, "I think the back-ups shouldn't have to play because they feel disrespected" mentality.
[/quote]
I played professional baseball in the MLB affiliated circuit, now I dont know if the NFL is any different but baseball has its favourites regardless of talent, or off field actions, or clubhouse actions. Just a way of life. Unless its something totally ridiculous. My only point was there are guys who get treated differently, I personally dont care what Harbaugh does because I cant change it anyways, so why worry about it. We've been successful in 2 years under him, im not going to trip.

[Alexir]

[quote name='neepo13' date='21 December 2009 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1261440890' post='318310']
Alexir strikes again. If you are going to correct someone you should get it right. Its McAlister. [url="http://www.nfl.com/players/chrismcalister/profile?id=MCA544720"]http://www.nfl.com/p...le?id=MCA544720[/url]
[/quote]

Aw damn, I knew that too lol. My bad i ll fix that it was right in the OP though lol

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='Alexir' date='21 December 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1261440653' post='318306']
First of all, its McAlister not McCallister.

[b]Second of all, Harbs puts too much merit into character then he does with talent. I mean this whole draft was basically the Character Draft of 2009.[/b]
[/quote]

Yeah this draft was terrible wasn't it, oh wait...

[Ravens549]

[quote name='neepo13' date='21 December 2009 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1261440890' post='318310']
Alexir strikes again. If you are going to correct someone you should get it right. Its McAlister. http://www.nfl.com/players/chrismcalister/profile?id=MCA544720
[/quote]
Hahahah
Too funny!

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Alexir' date='21 December 2009 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1261440653' post='318306']
Second of all, Harbs puts too much merit into character then he does with talent. I mean this whole draft was basically the Character Draft of 2009.[/quote]

Were Oher, Kruger, and Webb not phenomenal picks?

[quote]Everyone knows that anyone could replace Suggs right now because he is playing so half-assed its ridiculous. [/quote]

It's pretty unreasonable to think that the coaching staff would bench a guy who they just signed to a $60+ million contract.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Ravnet' date='21 December 2009 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1261450253' post='318473']
Were Oher, Kruger, and Webb not phenomenal picks?



It's pretty unreasonable to think that the coaching staff would bench a guy who they just signed to a $60+ million contract.
[/quote]

Oher and Webb were phenomenal picks but Kruger has only played in 4 or 5 games. What about peerman, drew, and phillips?

Oher was great and Webb was great.

Also, why not bench some guy who is making 60 mil? We benched our highest paid CB when he wasnt producing last year....

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='Alexir' date='21 December 2009 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1261439656' post='318289']
wow, you guys have your head so far up harbaugh's behind....

I'm a fan of the players first and when players are working hard to get on that field but Character comes into question based on attitudes I have a problem with that because he will put those guys in in a split second if it means him saving face or winning a game when someone goes down.
[/quote]

Some of us agree with the way Harbaugh runs his team. Harmony, sacrifice and discipline are part of Harbaugh's football heritage. You can take angry and petty shots at people all you want, but Harbaugh is going to field players that he thinks will win games - you assume too much when you assume Harbaugh started lesser players for the sake of his pride. Harbaugh is putting the best team he can on the field. If you disagree with how he does it, put in an application at the Castle and try to do it better.

You claim to be a fan of the players first, but it seems you're not a fan of all the players, just the ones that you think were benched for attitude problems. The real issue is this: Who's going to have the greatest positive impact on the team/game/play?

And yeah, he's going to put whomever the heck in he can to win a game. Why do you keep referring to that as a bad thing?

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

Bottom line is Harbaugh is the coach,and what he says goes no matter what we think.We don't want to end up like say,Minnesota,where Brad Childress get's over ruled by Brett Favre.Like him or not when a coach,any coach, loses his team and divides the locker room we're all screwed!

[Alexir]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='22 December 2009 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1261464573' post='318634']
Some of us agree with the way Harbaugh runs his team. Harmony, sacrifice and discipline are part of Harbaugh's football heritage. You can take angry and petty shots at people all you want, but Harbaugh is going to field players that he thinks will win games - you assume too much when you assume Harbaugh started lesser players for the sake of his pride. Harbaugh is putting the best team he can on the field. If you disagree with how he does it, put in an application at the Castle and try to do it better.

You claim to be a fan of the players first, but it seems you're not a fan of all the players, just the ones that you think were benched for attitude problems. The real issue is this: Who's going to have the greatest positive impact on the team/game/play?

And yeah, he's going to put whomever the heck in he can to win a game. Why do you keep referring to that as a bad thing?
[/quote]

How can you say disciplined when we get bonehead penalties? I mean I haven't really seen any changes from the Billick years to the Harbaugh years besides a new qb, a new offensive coordinator and a better training camp.

[Alexir]

[quote name='I-70WestRaven' date='22 December 2009 - 04:20 AM' timestamp='1261473655' post='318660']
Bottom line is Harbaugh is the coach,and what he says goes no matter what we think.We don't want to end up like say,Minnesota,where Brad Childress get's over ruled by Brett Favre.Like him or not when a coach,any coach, loses his team and divides the locker room we're all screwed!
[/quote]

again, you have mason yelling in his face.....do you guys watch the games?

[Bosanac]

[quote name='Alexir' date='22 December 2009 - 04:24 AM' timestamp='1261473884' post='318663']
again, [b]you have mason yelling in his face[/b].....do you guys watch the games?
[/quote]

once.

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

[quote name='Alexir' date='22 December 2009 - 03:24 AM' timestamp='1261473884' post='318663']
again, you have mason yelling in his face.....do you guys watch the games?
[/quote]


Yes I do.in hi-def!Mason yells once,once!!Did Mason yell Sunday or do you not watch the games? [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/TVWatchingSmiley.gif[/img] All I saw was smilin!

[Twoo]

Mason has deserved the right to yell in Harbs face if/when he gets angry to a certain extent. He's a consistent and reliable player who is also our premier wide out. It'd be different if he did it every game, but I'm sure there's a mutual level of respect between the two- and Harbs is going to let one or two players lash out every once in a while. It's human nature. It's healthy as long it's not a re-occuring issue.

[Radinho84]

i think he should bench suggs too. he is playin like i don´t now like what but just soft. i don´t get the point: u don´t bench your highest paid players. thats the problem why those high paid guys play like crap: they already got what they whant and do not need to prove anything because they stay on the field no matter what happens. same thing with players on other teams. i think ray lewis is a great example of how to produce on the field for years. he is as hungry as he was on his first day..but i am missing the point i guess. harb should do what he thinks is the best for the team. he is the one who is responsible for everything and who should know what´s the best for the best. but he is too high on this caracter crap in my opinion, too...

[noy]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='22 December 2009 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1261464573' post='318634']
Some of us agree with the way Harbaugh runs his team. Harmony, sacrifice and discipline are part of Harbaugh's football heritage. You can take angry and petty shots at people all you want, but Harbaugh is going to field players that he thinks will win games - you assume too much when you assume Harbaugh started lesser players for the sake of his pride. Harbaugh is putting the best team he can on the field. If you disagree with how he does it, put in an application at the Castle and try to do it better.

You claim to be a fan of the players first, but it seems you're not a fan of all the players, just the ones that you think were benched for attitude problems. The real issue is this: Who's going to have the greatest positive impact on the team/game/play?

And yeah, he's going to put whomever the heck in he can to win a game. Why do you keep referring to that as a bad thing?
[/quote]

What is wrong with some of you? Stop getting all defensive of Harbaugh when this is a legitimate criticism of him. Nobody is complaining about his changing of personnel to win football games, in fact, we all agree on that aspect. What some of us are upset with is the TIMING of the changes, and the fact that some changes haven't been made yet. Forget what Harbaugh is aiming to achieve, let's look at the results.

Williams enters the game and all of a sudden Flacco throws a deep bomb for a TD. Shocking? Not really, he's our tallest receiving threat. What Alexir is saying is that basing personnel decisions on character will not win football games. There's four variables to a football player, talent, physical attributes, character and football intelligence. D. Williams is clearly what we need because his lack of "character" is a non-issue when his physical attributes clearly overshadow that problem. Everyone knows that a corner will have a tougher time covering a receiver that is four inches taller than the guy he is replacing...

You're happy with the way the team is run? So you're happy with an average football team? Congratulations on mediocrity, but some of us will push our team to excellence and continue to criticize them.

From the perspective of game, some benched players seem to be better at certain positions than the starters. Forget about how much they're getting paid, if you're not producing on the field then you're not producing. There's no "sack per million dollar" category, so why are we talking about contracts? The cost has already been incurred, the team will be wasting money whether the player is benched or whether he is on the field doing nothing that one of backups couldn't do. The fact is, Barnes got more pressure than Suggs ever did, and another fact is that Kruger does all the same things Suggs is doing. Two players matching or outperforming our starter?..

[PIG 20]

If Harbs was doing such a horrible job, then this team would have easily fallen apart by now. This season could have had 2007 written all over it when we went on that long losing streak of close football games. Give credit where credit is due. He kept this team together and now we control our own destiny once again. We win the last two games and we're in.

This team has gone through a ton of injuries this season and keep in mind that we still have a QB who is only in his second year. But so far, we are still in this thing and for the most part the blame for many of our losses can be spread around the whole team.

I can't stand when people will sit here and act negative when we are literally sitting here in the top wild card spot at this point. And we still control our entire destiny!

Did this season go the way we wanted it to? No, it obviously didn't. Did we expect Cincy to be leading the division and sweep the entire AFC North? No, you'd be a liar if you said otherwise. Have we been "blown out" of any game this season? No, we haven't!

Are we playing our best football when it counts the most? Yes, we are!

We have a really tough game this week and it seems like a lot of people are just assuming we are going to lose this game. Remember, this is still the same Pittsburgh team that lost to the likes of the Chiefs, Raiders, and Browns. THE BROWNS! Possibly the worst team in football and the Steelers lost to them. Everyone is so worried because Ben threw for 503 yards last week. I promise you that he won't do that again. Just think about this, he needed to throw for 503 yards just to win the football game at the last second. He will not do that again.

Quit the negativity! I love playing meaningful football in December! We control our own destiny!

[neepo13]

[quote name='Alexir' date='22 December 2009 - 04:21 AM' timestamp='1261473704' post='318661']
How can you say disciplined when we get bonehead penalties? I mean I haven't really seen any changes from the Billick years to the Harbaugh years besides a new qb, a new offensive coordinator and a better training camp.
[/quote]
LMAO. You make those changes sound so unimportant. You do realize the very reason that Billick lost his job was because he couldnt develop a starting QB. He couldnt develop a starting QB because his offensive coaching staff was a revolving door. And his players were not well conditioned or ready for the season because of camp powder puff. We are pretty beat up right now but we didnt suffer any major injuries to key players until we played at Cle. More than half the season this team was relatively healthy. And never before have we seen so many guys come in and step up, when a key guy goes down. Under Billick, if we had lost Reed or Suggs, that would have been it. Season over. Not the case this year, Zibby didnt even know he was going to get the start @ GB but he was prepared to play and played well. Webb had to step in vs. Indy to take over for Washington and he helped us hold the best QB in NFL history to 17 points. Thats a BIG difference from the Billick years.

I agree this whole dog house bussiness annoys but dont try to make it seem like Harbaugh hasnt had a positive impact on this team. Yeah, he's still got a ways to go as a HC but he has done a damn good job so far.