Do Fans Owe Clayton An Apology?

[Ed_Reed20]

Clayton hasn't done what you expect from a first round receiver. However, he hasn't been a bust either. He's a valuable member on this team and has held down a starting job because he's a good player. He won't win you a game single-handedly like some other player but he won't cost you a game either. People can point to NE drop but as bad as that was, it was the just the second time he'd dropped a pass since 2007.

I'm happy Clayton is on this team and hopefully, he's back next year.

[flynismo]

[quote name='neepo13' date='06 November 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1257530145' post='274259']
The season is far from over. After the first 5 games last year Flacco was projected to throw over 20 pics, he didnt.

What happens if Clayton out performs his projected numbers? Will you still be here talking crap about the guy saying he sucks? Clayton isnt going to be the next great NFL wr and yes, he's underperformed considering where he was drafted but he's not as bad as you try to make him out to be.
[/quote]

History gives me absolutely no reason to believe that this year will be any different than the rest for him. He's actually already on pace to slightly outproduce his annual averages, since he averages 651 yards and 2.5 TD a year.

[flynismo]

[quote name='neepo13' date='06 November 2009 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1257529605' post='274248']
I believe Clayton is the guy that scored the game winning TD week 1, he's also the guy who's TD sparked our offense at Minn. You dont like Clayton, so I expect you to ignore the fact that he makes more plays than he actually blows. Does he disappear a couple of games every season? Sure. Is he inconsistant? Very much so. He might not always help us win the game but very rarely has he actually done something that helped cost us the game. Carr gave up the game winning TD vs Cinci, and has been horrible every time the football gets anywhere near him. He blows more plays than he makes. The same is true for Frank Walker. The same is not true for Mark Clayton. He makes far more plays than he actually blows.
[/quote]

Disappearing "a couple" games each year is quite generous. Just last year alone, he had something like 13 games in which he failed to crack a mere 40 yards. He had two or three games with ZERO catches if I recall correctly.

But okay, we'll ignore how horrendous he was last year, since some feel that he should get a free pass and not be held accountable for his poor play.

How about this year?

Let's see.....

Week 1. He had a decent game, getting 77 yards and scoring the go ahead TD. No complaints here. In fact, I'd say job well done.

Week 2. Did nothing.

Week 3. Did nothing.

Week 4. A whopping 45 yards receiving. Did next to nothing.
Oh, and heard that he dropped a couple important red zone passes?

Week 5. Nothing. Think he made a nice catch that week though.

Week 6. More of the usual.

Week 7. Bye.

Week 8. Did next to nothing. Made a nice catch.

So.......same shiz, different year. One decent game, 6 games of crap.

[AwakenTheDemon]

Talk about Clayton always tends to create a rift in the fan base heh. And it always boils down to an argument.

[FerrariFan87]

[b]Derrick Mason's stats: 30 Rec., 421 Yards, 4 TDs, 14.0 Yards/Rec.

Mark Clayton's stats: 23 Rec., 303 Yards, 2 TDs, 13.2 Yards/Rec.[/b]

Not much difference there, guys.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' date='06 November 2009 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1257535116' post='274336']
[b]Derrick Mason's stats: 30 Rec., 421 Yards, 4 TDs, 14.0 Yards/Rec.

Mark Clayton's stats: 23 Rec., 303 Yards, 2 TDs, 13.2 Yards/Rec.[/b]

Not much difference there, guys.
[/quote]

Mason has been more productive but Flacco looks his way a lot more and Kelley Washington has turned into Mr.Third Down. I'm fine with Clayton's performance this year.

[flynismo]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' date='06 November 2009 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1257535116' post='274336']
[b]Derrick Mason's stats: 30 Rec., 421 Yards, 4 TDs, 14.0 Yards/Rec.

Mark Clayton's stats: 23 Rec., 303 Yards, 2 TDs, 13.2 Yards/Rec.[/b]

Not much difference there, guys.
[/quote]


Yep, you're right. They're both on pace so far for mediocre seasons.
But even in a down year, Mace is still producing about 40% more yards and double the TDs.
And to top it off, he has more YPC than our supposed deep threat

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1257536504' post='274351']
Yep, you're right. They're both on pace so far for mediocre seasons.
But even in a down year, Mace is still producing about 40% more yards and double the TDs.
[b]And to top it off, he has more YPC than our supposed deep threat [/b]

[/quote]

Mason has 51 targets to Clayton's 48. As close as that is, Mason had 72-yard catch and run against Cleveland.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1257536930' post='274363']
Mason has 51 targets to Clayton's 48. As close as that is, Mason had 72-yard catch and run against Cleveland.
[/quote]


Exactly. Isn't our deep threat supposed to be doing that, and not a 36 year old possession receiver having an off year?

Not only that, once again The Forgiven One isn't even catching half of his targets. Last year he caught 41 of 83, and repeating the trend this year.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1257536504' post='274351']
Yep, you're right. They're both on pace so far for mediocre seasons.
[b]But even in a down year, Mace is still producing about 40% more yards and double the TDs.
And to top it off, he has more YPC than our supposed deep threat [/b]

[/quote]

I'll definitely give you that point, but I think Clayton would still be more productive in the slot with Kelley on the outside. We should be utilizing more Bubble/WR screens in order to take advantage of Clayton's YAC ability...

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1257537873' post='274378']
Exactly. Isn't our deep threat supposed to be doing that, and not a 36 year old possession receiver having an off year?

Not only that, once again The Forgiven One isn't even catching half of his targets. Last year he caught 41 of 83, and repeating the trend this year.
[/quote]

The Ravens have rarely gone deep to Clayton this year. I can remember only three deep balls to Clayton all year. Two of them went for TDs and the other was bad throw from Flacco.

HE DIDN'T DROP A PASS LAST YEAR BUDDY! This year, he's dropped two on target balls. And most starting receivers in the league hover around catching 50% of the balls thrown his way. Not every pass thrown a receiver's way is on target.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1257538931' post='274399']
The Ravens have rarely gone deep to Clayton this year. I can remember only three deep balls to Clayton all year. Two of them went for TDs and the other was bad throw from Flacco.

HE DIDN'T DROP A PASS LAST YEAR BUDDY! This year, he's dropped two on target balls. And most starting receivers in the league hover around catching 50% of the balls thrown his way. Not every pass thrown a receiver's way is on target.
[/quote]


I never said he dropped a pass last year, I said he didn't catch half the passes thrown his way, just like this year.

And decent receivers dont hover around the 50% mark, hate to break it to you. Scrubs do though. Only two guys last year with at least 100 receptions caught less than 50% of their targets. Most guys are in the high 50's to low 60's. The elite receivers can approach 70%.

I mean really....first you guys tell me that 939 yards and 5 TD is #1 WR production, now catching less than 50 percent of your targets is acceptable? Whatever let's you sleep at night, I guess.....

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1257539290' post='274405']
And decent receivers dont hover around the 50% mark, hate to break it to you. Scrubs do though.
[/quote]

Wrong again sir. Here are some statistics for you:

[img]http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_fantasy_experts__20/ept_sports_fantasy_experts-682297605-1257270635.jpg?ymrFgJCDKCHbDM.A[/img]

These statistics are all from this year. As you can clearly see, the best receivers in the NFL all hover around 50-60% as far as catch to target efficiency.

[reed20]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1257540303' post='274417']
Wrong again sir. Here are some statistics for you:

[img]http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_fantasy_experts__20/ept_sports_fantasy_experts-682297605-1257270635.jpg?ymrFgJCDKCHbDM.A[/img]

These statistics are all from this year. As you can clearly see, the best receivers in the NFL all hover around 50-60% as far as catch to target efficiency.
[/quote]


I'm assuming that you're referring to Andre Johnson, well look at his targets. They've thrown to him 80 times and I know Wayne isn't far off and is well over 50% but what do ya expect? Waynes the best WR in the league IMO, hes in a league of his own.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1257540303' post='274417']
Wrong again sir. Here are some statistics for you:

[img]http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_fantasy_experts__20/ept_sports_fantasy_experts-682297605-1257270635.jpg?ymrFgJCDKCHbDM.A[/img]

These statistics are all from this year. As you can clearly see, the best receivers in the NFL all hover around 50-60% as far as catch to target efficiency.
[/quote]


And, how am I wrong again?? You said most receivers hover around 50%.

Your chart backs up what I said though, which is that most guys are in the high 50s and low 60s.

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1257541002' post='274426']
And, how am I wrong again?? You said most receivers hover around 50%.

[b]Your chart backs up what I said though, which is that most guys are in the high 50s and low 60s.[/b]
[/quote]

Did you add that in after he posted the chart or was it just a coincedence that you edited about 5 minutes after the chart was up? Hahaha sorry to call you out man, but I don't remember you having that sentence in your original post. Otherwise the Ed Reed20 wouldn't have posted it.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1257541002' post='274426']
And, how am I wrong again?? You said most receivers hover around 50%.

Your chart backs up what I said though, which is that most guys are in the high 50s and low 60s.
[/quote]

Ok. My initial statement that most receivers hover around 50% was [b]wrong[/b] but looking at that table, there are 28 receivers on the list. 14 of them are either have an average over 50% or under 50%. 14% of them have an average over 60%. With that in mind, Clayton's production this year AND last is right around the league average.

[flynismo]

[quote name='baltiMORE RAVENS' date='06 November 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1257541628' post='274431']
Did you add that in after he posted the chart or was it just a coincedence that you edited about 5 minutes after the chart was up? Hahaha sorry to call you out man, but I don't remember you having that sentence in your original post. Otherwise the Ed Reed20 wouldn't have posted it.
[/quote]


No, wasn't in my original post, I edited the post twice. I was editing my post when he put up the chart, he prbably put up the chart before I was done editing.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1257541631' post='274432']
Ok. My initial statement that most receivers hover around 50% was [b]wrong[/b] but looking at that table, there are 28 receivers on the list. 14 of them are either have an average over 50% or under 50%. 14% of them have an average over 60%. With that in mind, Clayton's production this year AND last is right around the league average.
[/quote]

No, I dont see how his 50% catch rate is at the league average. 28 WRs is barely a third of all starting WR in the league. We would have to include the other 36 guys, factor in their totals and then we can start talking about the league average.
And I'm willing to bet the league average of all the starters is around 54-55 percent, which is well above the 49% Clayton put up last year or the 47 percent he is averaging this year.

[raven112657]

Enough already. I am pleased with all the Raven receivers this year. They have exceeded my expectations so far. Let's hope they keep it up. This is our team the rest of the year. Let's support them all.

[flynismo]

[quote name='raven112657' date='06 November 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1257542495' post='274442']
Enough already. I am pleased with all the Raven receivers this year. They have exceeded my expectations so far. Let's hope they keep it up. This is our team the rest of the year. Let's support them all.
[/quote]


Enough what? We're talking about my whipping boy, Clayton. Not like we're insulting each other. Just good ol' debate amongst forum friends.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1257542331' post='274437']
No, I dont see how his 50% catch rate is at the league average. 28 WRs is barely a third of all starting WR in the league. We would have to include the other 36 guys, factor in their totals and then we can start talking about the league average.
And I'm willing to bet the league average of all the starters is around 54-55 percent, which is well above the 49% Clayton put up last year or the 47 percent he is averaging this year.
[/quote]

We're talking about the top receivers in the league. The players on the list are the most targeted players in the league because they're the best. You can include the other starters in the league but that would only weaken your argument.

But regardless, all this argument boils down to is you feeling Clayton is a scrub and how he should be the slot receiver while Kelley or Demetrius line up on the outside. The fact is, Cam and the coaches would've gone with that formation if it could help the team. Williams has done nothing to be promoted and Kelley is thriving from the slot position. He's never been a #2 receiver on ANY of his previous teams but he seems comfortable and effective where he is now.

I don't understand why you would want to change something that obviously isn't broken.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1257535324' post='274338']
Mason has been more productive but [b]Flacco looks his way a lot more and Kelley Washington has turned into Mr.Third Down.[/b] I'm fine with Clayton's performance this year.
[/quote]
First one armed 34 year old Mason out did Clayton last year. Now a career back-up comes in and even he can exceed expectations in his first year with the team. Maybe there is a reason that no quarterback has yet made Mark his go to guy.

It seems that Clayton always has to have excuses made for him.
[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1257537873' post='274378']
Exactly. Isn't our deep threat supposed to be doing that, and not a 36 year old possession receiver having an off year?

Not only that, once again [b]The Forgiven One[/b] isn't even catching half of his targets. Last year he caught 41 of 83, and repeating the trend this year.
[/quote]

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='06 November 2009 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1257543276' post='274452']
First one armed 34 year old Mason out did Clayton last year. Now a career back-up comes in and even he can exceed expectations in his first year with the team. Maybe there is a reason that no quarterback has yet made Mark his go to guy.

It seems that Clayton always has to have excuses made for him.


[/quote]

The points I'm bringing up aren't excuses but facts. Mason had an incredible year last year but he had [b]121[/b] targets to Clayton's [b]61[/b] in 2008. Of course Mason was going to have better stats.

As for Kelley, I've loved the production the team has got from him but it's much easier to abuse a team's nickel or a LB than a #2 corner on the outside.

Finally, look at the QBs that have thrown to Clayton. Boller, Smith, McNair and now Flacco. Besides Flacco, the best out of that group is obviously McNair and in '06, Clayton was the #1 receiver and had much better statistics than Mason.

[TSizzle00]

[quote name='hammer' date='05 November 2009 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1257477127' post='274071']
Is it proper or classy for Ravens Fans to apologize for harsh treatment of a player? Has it ever happened before? It looks like Mark has found his groove in the games since the "NE Drop."

Do we owe him an apology? I think we do and I haven't heard a peep from anyone about it. Your thoughts?
[/quote]

Fry Leon Hall for 2 TDs in this Bengals game and maybe we will talk

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TSizzle00' date='06 November 2009 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1257543845' post='274456']
Fry Leon Hall for 2 TDs in this Bengals game and maybe we will talk
[/quote]

He did that in the second game last year. Hopefully, he does it again this Sunday.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1257543975' post='274460']
He did that in the second game last year. Hopefully, he does it again this Sunday.
[/quote]

I concur... Clayton's long overdue for a big game.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 November 2009 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1257543044' post='274451']
We're talking about the top receivers in the league. The players on the list are the most targeted players in the league because they're the best. You can include the other starters in the league but that would only weaken your argument.
[/quote]

If we're only going to use those guys, then Clayton would rank behind every single one of those guys except for 4 players.

Or a better way to put it in perspective.....

The average of those guys on that list is 61.3% (adding up all the receptions then dividing it by targets). Clayton is at 48%. Nuff said.

[quote]
But regardless, all this argument boils down to is you feeling Clayton is a scrub and how he should be the slot receiver while Kelley or Demetrius line up on the outside. The fact is, Cam and the coaches would've gone with that formation if it could help the team. Williams has done nothing to be promoted and Kelley is thriving from the slot position. He's never been a #2 receiver on ANY of his previous teams but he seems comfortable and effective where he is now.

I don't understand why you would want to change something that obviously isn't broken.[/quote]

Because there is always room for improvement. Earlier I mentioned Clayton having one decent game and 6 garbage games this year. Wouldn't you have prefered to get some production for those six games? Did things look rosy to you when Clayton bricked those passes in NE or did nearly nothing in the other games? What is giving Kelley a shot going to hurt?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1257544645' post='274471']
If we're only going to use those guys, then Clayton would rank behind every single one of those guys except for 4 players.

Or a better way to put it in perspective.....

The average of those guys on that list is 61.3% (adding up all the receptions then dividing it by targets). Clayton is at 48%. Nuff said.
[/quote]

I could bring up several receivers who have the same or lower percentages than top receivers in the league. Here are a few:

Lee Evans has 23 catches on 50 targets.
Braylon Edwards has 23 catches on 50 targets
DeSean Jackson has 24 catches on 50 targets
Terrell Owens has 23 catches on 50 targets
Eddie Royal has 20 catches on 49 targets

Most people would agree all of those guys are better than Clayton but they have percentages similar to him.


[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1257544645' post='274471']
[b]Because there is always room for improvement[/b]. Earlier I mentioned Clayton having one decent game and 6 garbage games this year. Wouldn't you have prefered to get some production for those six games? Did things look rosy to you when Clayton bricked those passes in NE or did nearly nothing in the other games? What is giving Kelley a shot going to hurt?
[/quote]

But how do you know it will be improvement? What good NFL team tweaks their lineup when it's clicking? And I'll ask you again, what has Clayton done to be demoted? Nothing. He's caught every on target pass thrown his way except for two. He's fine where he is.

P.S. He dropped one on target pass against NE. The other pass would've been a sensational grab had he come down with it and I doubt most receivers in the league could've made that grab.

[neepo13]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 November 2009 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1257533955' post='274316']
Disappearing "a couple" games each year is quite generous. Just last year alone, he had something like 13 games in which he failed to crack a mere 40 yards. He had two or three games with ZERO catches if I recall correctly.

But okay, we'll ignore how horrendous he was last year, since some feel that he should get a free pass and not be held accountable for his poor play.

How about this year?

Let's see.....

Week 1. He had a decent game, getting 77 yards and scoring the go ahead TD. No complaints here. In fact, I'd say job well done.

Week 2. Did nothing.

Week 3. Did nothing.

Week 4. A whopping 45 yards receiving. Did next to nothing.
Oh, and heard that he dropped a couple important red zone passes?

Week 5. Nothing. Think he made a nice catch that week though.

Week 6. More of the usual.

Week 7. Bye.

Week 8. Did next to nothing. Made a nice catch.

So.......same shiz, different year. One decent game, 6 games of crap.
[/quote]

What the hell do you want from him? He's had 1 bad game this season and that was vs. SD. The other 5 games, although not blow you away performances, were decent games by him.

What do you want him to put up a 10 catch 200 yard performance every week? Thats what it seems like. The way you talk about the guy, you'd think defenses take him completely out of the game every week.