The Facts Are On The Vid

[ROH522155]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1257291071' post='272810']
Ya don't say. Thank you. I was confused as to where you stood on this issue. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Well then I'm glad I cleared that up for ya.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1257291136' post='272813']
That entire post is speculative garbage.
[/quote]
Wow, so you don't like stats and you don't like other peoples assessments? Once again, I call you out for your failings to provide any evidence of why Polamalu is better.

Don't call my posts garbage when you have offered nothing more than opinions yourself. At least people in here arguing for Ed Reed have provided some evidence. What have you done? "[i]Stats aren't everything[/i]" or "[i]Polamalu makes plays at the line of scrimmage which Reed doesn't do[/i]"

I find that rather hypocritical.

[ROH522155]

Uh oh, I feel some tension building here.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Lol. Well stastistics have been used, along with a video of Ed Reed's all-round playmaking abilities before his neck injury - but these were supposedly insufficient on the grounds that all statistics can be manipulated. True to an extent, but I'm not trying to sell timeshare here. [u]You can't exactly fabricate tackles and interceptions, the NFL keeps those numbers[/u]. One might even argue due to Ed Reed being 'smaller' than Polamalu that the plays where he forces fumbles are more impressive, as they are less reliant on simply bowling into an opponent as fast as possible. Case and point, the strip fumble and return at Washington last season.

Following on from this, debate seems to be centred around observations of how both players perform in various aspects of the field. As shown in the video, and seen by NFL fans for years, [b]Ed Reed was a fantastic run-stopping safety atop his coverage skills. This can be verified by statistics[/b]. Again, this approach was rebutted but yet again, no alternative means apart from the Warden's own opinion have been expressed.

[b]Polamalu has only been on Reed's level for 2-3 years based on statistics[/b]. Now I know these don't tell the whole story, but if Reed is making 70+ tackles on a defense that has arguably the greatest linebacker of all time, he's clearly getting to the ball carrier quickly and efficiently.

I'll happily engage in dialogue on the matter until the cows come home, but being criticised when the individual revoking my opinions has actually offered less of an argument as to why Polamalu is better is comical.

[noy]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1257291826' post='272824']
Wow, so you don't like stats and you don't like other peoples assessments? Once again, I call you out for your failings to provide any evidence of why Polamalu is better.

Don't call my posts garbage when you have offered nothing more than opinions yourself. At least people in here arguing for Ed Reed have provided some evidence. What have you done? "[i]Stats aren't everything[/i]" or "[i]Polamalu makes plays at the line of scrimmage which Reed doesn't do[/i]"

I find that rather hypocritical.
[/quote]

A tackle at the line of scrimmage is far more productive than a tackle one yard away from the first down. Talking about where the statistic was acquired isn't an opinion, it's simply breaking down a standard stat into a more specific stat.

If the NFL broke down exactly where each statistic was acquired, I'd put money on Polamalu having more critical tackles than Reed (that, is an opinion) in their best seasons. Could Polamalu possibly be able to work the line of scrimmage better than Ed Reed? Welllll he IS a strong safety, that's part of his job description. It comes back to the fundamental argument; strong safety supports the run defense more, free safety supports the pass defense more.

You know the only proof that is necessary? That this topic hasn't been settled by anyone, ESPN couldn't do it if they put $10 mil of research into it...or could they?


[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1257292793' post='272837']
Lol. Well stastistics have been used, along with a video of Ed Reed's all-round playmaking abilities before his neck injury - but these were supposedly insufficient on the grounds that all statistics can be manipulated. True to an extent, but I'm not trying to sell timeshare here. [u]You can't exactly fabricate tackles and interceptions, the NFL keeps those numbers[/u]. One might even argue due to Ed Reed being 'smaller' than Polamalu that the plays where he forces fumbles are more impressive, as they are less reliant on simply bowling into an opponent as fast as possible. Case and point, the strip fumble and return at Washington last season.

Following on from this, debate seems to be centred around observations of how both players perform in various aspects of the field. As shown in the video, and seen by NFL fans for years, [b]Ed Reed was a fantastic run-stopping safety atop his coverage skills. This can be verified by statistics[/b]. Again, this approach was rebutted but yet again, no alternative means apart from the Warden's own opinion have been expressed.

[b]Polamalu has only been on Reed's level for 2-3 years based on statistics[/b]. Now I know these don't tell the whole story, but if Reed is making 70+ tackles on a defense that has arguably the greatest linebacker of all time, he's clearly getting to the ball carrier quickly and efficiently.

I'll happily engage in dialogue on the matter until the cows come home, but being criticised when the individual revoking my opinions has actually offered less of an argument as to why Polamalu is better is comical.
[/quote]

Why are we talking about the duration of their excellence instead of the quality? A great player is remembered and feared for their best season; Ed Reed, in terms of consistency and longevity of his skill, has outperformed Troy, as the stats identify. However, just because Ed started to pack a punch earlier in relation to Troy doesn't mean one's skills peaks higher than the other. And they may plateau at different aspects of football, but to say one is strictly better than the other in terms of football effectiveness could be argued for decades.

The argument then becomes how each player affects each team. I think we can all agree there, both players are vital for their defenses.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1257291826' post='272824']
Wow, so you don't like stats and you don't like other peoples assessments? Once again, I call you out for your failings to provide any evidence of why Polamalu is better.

Don't call my posts garbage when you have offered nothing more than opinions yourself. At least people in here arguing for Ed Reed have provided some evidence. What have you done? "[i]Stats aren't everything[/i]" or "[i]Polamalu makes plays at the line of scrimmage which Reed doesn't do[/i]"

I find that rather hypocritical.
[/quote]


First of all, I am not arguing that Troy is better. I am arguing against you that Ed is flat out better than Troy just because he's run back a bunch of picks. Second I NEVER said "[i]Polamalu makes plays at the line of scrimmage [u]which Reed doesn't do[/u][/i]" although there is some truth to that.

As you have been told before, Ed Reed gets opportunities to make the pick that Troy does not get. Troys worth can't always be measured by something as tangible as a stat. Teams game plan around him and how to figure out what he's doing. Who does that with Ed? He splits the field and that's pretty much it.

If we're going to base this on personal feelings alone then fine; let's go there:

Mine: Put Troy at FS and let him play back in deep zone coverage 75% of the time and he will have the numbers Ed Reed does. No question in my mind.

Put Ed Reed up on the line on a 4th and inches and MAYBE he gets in on the play. Troy is the first one to get to the ball carrier in those situations.
Troy is clutch. I'd liken Ed Reed to Alex Rodriguez: Is he a bad (butt)? Sure, but how often does he make those highlight reel plays when the game is on the line? Ed's big play always seems to come when the oppostion is forced to throw it.


Troy usually makes the play when we need it.


With regards to stats...Again. Stats may not lie, but they do decieve. They never tell the whole story but some folks (like yourself) latch onto to a number and use it to proclaim your guy as the best there has ever been. It reminds of those teams that boast they have a top ranked pass defense knowing full and well it's because they can't stop the run.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1257292793' post='272837']
Lol. Well stastistics have been used, along with a video of Ed Reed's all-round playmaking abilities before his neck injury - but these were supposedly insufficient on the grounds that all statistics can be manipulated. True to an extent, but I'm not trying to sell timeshare here. [u]You can't exactly fabricate tackles and interceptions, the NFL keeps those numbers[/u]. One might even argue due to Ed Reed being 'smaller' than Polamalu that the plays where he forces fumbles are more impressive, as they are less reliant on simply bowling into an opponent as fast as possible. Case and point, the strip fumble and return at Washington last season.

Following on from this, debate seems to be centred around observations of how both players perform in various aspects of the field. As shown in the video, and seen by NFL fans for years, [b]Ed Reed was a fantastic run-stopping safety atop his coverage skills. This can be verified by statistics[/b]. Again, this approach was rebutted but yet again, no alternative means apart from the Warden's own opinion have been expressed.

[b]Polamalu has only been on Reed's level for 2-3 years based on statistics[/b]. Now I know these don't tell the whole story, but if Reed is making 70+ tackles on a defense that has arguably the greatest linebacker of all time, he's clearly getting to the ball carrier quickly and efficiently.

I'll happily engage in dialogue on the matter until the cows come home, but being criticised when the individual revoking my opinions has actually offered less of an argument as to why Polamalu is better is comical.
[/quote]

That's a laugh. Half of your argument is that I[i] "can't win because this is a Ravens forum."[/i] No kidding there!

I also provided a comparison between some other pretty good players and you totally dismissed it (despite the fact that it blew a big hole in your arguement) citing some one-dimensional stats and an Ed Reed Highlight video for cryin out loud. I find that to be laughable. I'll bet I could find a Ryan Leaf highlight video somewhere that makes him look pretty good too.

[ROH522155]

Im pretty sure Ed Reed's highlight videos are much more extensive than Ryan Leaf's

[ROH522155]

Warden, I've never been more annoyed by you than I am right now. You just said Ed Reed doesnt come up with game changing plays when we need them? Is that a joke?

Ed Reed>Troy Polamalu



I seriously am SO excited to play the Steelers. I sure hope we silence the Sixburgh fans. At least until we play them again in week 16. If we can sweep them I will cry. Im so ready for the Steelers!!!! Only 26 more days!

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1257297745' post='272881']
Warden, I've never been more annoyed by you than I am right now. You just said Ed Reed doesnt come up with game changing plays when we need them? Is that a joke?

Ed Reed>Troy Polamalu
[/quote]


I've never seen him make that awesome play when the game is on the line, no. I said it seems that he always makes those plays when the opposing offense is in the desparate position of having to pass. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that he's NEVER made a play when the Ravens needed it, but from what I see when I watch the game or see the highlights they usually come when it's pretty clear the Ravens are going to win.

I've seldom if ever seen him make a play against us.

Tell you what, don't get annoyed but answer me this one question: Will you tell me what it is that Ed Reed can do that Troy Polamalu is incapable of doing?

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1257297560' post='272880']
Im pretty sure Ed Reed's highlight videos are much more extensive than Ryan Leaf's
[/quote]


Obviously, but a highlight video is just that: Only the good stuff.

[ROH522155]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1257298079' post='272884']
I've never seen him make that awesome play when the game is on the line, no. I said it seems that he always makes those plays when the opposing offense is in the desparate position of having to pass. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that he's NEVER made a play when the Ravens needed it, but from what I see when I watch the game or see the highlights they usually come when it's pretty clear the Ravens are going to win.

I've seldom if ever seen him make a play against us.

Tell you what, don't get annoyed but answer me this one question: Will you tell me what it is that Ed Reed can do that Troy Polamalu is incapable of doing?
[/quote]


Umm being the best Safety in the NFL? haha Seriously though you said you think Troy could make the plays Ed Reed does if their roles were reversed. Well I disagree I think Troy is a great cover safety but I don't think his coverage skills are near that of Ed Reed's.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1257298319' post='272887']
Umm being the best Safety in the NFL? haha Seriously though you said you think Troy could make the plays Ed Reed does if their roles were reversed. Well I disagree I think Troy is a great cover safety but I don't think his coverage skills are near that of Ed Reed's.
[/quote]


And THAT is where I disagree. I think Troy could do everything Ed Reed could. We just employ him differently.

Here's Troys USC stats:

[quote]In his career as a 3-year starter, Polamalu has 278 tackles (29 for losses), 6 interceptions (3 returned for TDs), 13 deflections, 2 fumble recoveries and 4 blocked punts. [/quote]

Three TDs in three years (and in fewer than a 16 game season).

Ed Reed avergaes just under one per year on defense. Troy was deployed more traditionally at USC than in Pittsburgh.

Now with that in mind look at these (Gawd I hate) stats:

Troy has played in 91 games (75 started) and Ed Reed has played in 113 games (started all but one).

Troy has 448 tackles to Eds 437.
Troy has 7 sacks to Eds 5
Troy has 7 FF to Eds 8

The ONLY difference has to do with picks and td's (and games played).

Ed 45 picks/6 TD's
Troy 19 picks/ 1 TD
(not including playoffs and I can think of at least one TD that was wrongfully taken from Troy in the regular season. Not sure about Ed).

Look that over and again consider how each player is deployed in his respective defense.

[ROH522155]

You can't really bring college stats into this because this is the NFL were talkin about here. And its pretty hard to say someone could do the same thing Ed does because well, what Ed does is pretty damn amazing. 45 ints? 6tds? (That actually seemed a little low to me because it seems like hes been in the end zone 200 times) But its right if your just lookin at INTs but he also has 2 tds off fumbles and at least one off of a punt block.

Can you really look at 3 years of [b]college[/b] stats and say he could do ALL THAT in the NFL? I don't think so.


And the tackles thing, Troy averages 4.3 tackles per game in his 72 starts. In 4 seasons as a Strong Safety, Ed averaged about 4 tackles per game in 57 starts. And he was also able to grab 22 interceptions in those 58 games including the one game that he didnt start in 2003. While Troy has intercepted just 19 in 72 starts and 91 games played.


Ed>Troy


stats courtesy of profootballreference.com

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1257300535' post='272901']
[b]You can't really bring college stats into this[/b] because this is the NFL were talkin about here. And its pretty hard to say someone could do the same thing Ed does because well, what Ed does is pretty damn amazing. 45 ints? 6tds? (That actually seemed a little low to me because it seems like hes been in the end zone 200 times) But its right if your just lookin at INTs but he also has 2 tds off fumbles and at least one off of a punt block.

Can you really look at 3 years of [b]college[/b] stats and say he could do ALL THAT in the NFL? I don't think so.


And the tackles thing, Troy averages 4.3 tackles per game in his 72 starts. In 4 seasons as a Strong Safety, Ed averaged about 4 tackles per game in 57 starts. And he was also able to grab 22 interceptions in those 58 games including the one game that he didnt start in 2003. While Troy has intercepted just 19 in 72 starts and 91 games played.


Ed<Troy


stats courtesy of profootballreference.com
[/quote]

Says the guy who's trying to compare only a part of Eds career. This is why I hate stats: You can assort and present them in such a way that they make you think you've got something when you don't.

I compared their entire careers thus far and depsite starting 37 less games than Ed Reed, Troy has equal stats outside of the pick...and AGAIN, he is not playing deep 75% of the time as Ed is.

I'm using USC to show you what Troy is capable of in coverage. I know it's not a complete answer but I'm just using it as a reference.

Why does Troy have more tackles in 37 fewer starts than Ed? Could it be because he's playing closer to the line perhaps? Hmmm.

[ROH522155]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1257301722' post='272908']
Says the guy who's trying to compare only a part of Eds career. This is why I hate stats: You can assort and present them in such a way that they make you think you've got something when you don't.

I compared their entire careers thus far and depsite starting 37 less games than Ed Reed, Troy has equal stats outside of the pick...and AGAIN, he is not playing deep 75% of the time as Ed is.

I'm using USC to show you what Troy is capable of in coverage. I know it's not a complete answer but I'm just using it as a reference.

Why does Troy have more tackles in 37 fewer starts than Ed? Could it be because he's playing closer to the line perhaps? Hmmm.
[/quote]

Well in college obviously your not facing as good quarterbacks as u do in the NFL.

And yes that is why he has more tackles. But my stats showed that when Ed was playing the same position as Troy and wasnt constantly playing 20 yards off the ball, their tackle stats were nearly identical. Granted, it was over a shorter period of time.

[ROH522155]

I'm done arguing my point for tonight but I'll gladly keep going tomorrow if you continue to do so.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1257302051' post='272910']
Well in college obviously your not facing as good quarterbacks as u do in the NFL.

And yes that is why he has more tackles. But my stats showed that when Ed was playing the same position as Troy and wasnt constantly playing 20 yards off the ball, their tackle stats were nearly identical. Granted, it was over a shorter period of time.
[/quote]


Yea, well Ed Reed didn't pick off Dan Marino or John Elway 45 times either.

Not really buying the excuse for the tackle difference BUT: I know Ed Reed can tackle. I also know that Troy can catch a ball in the air. But who gets more opportunites to get the sexy pick and which one is relgated to get the less prestigious tackle?

Prophet mentioned this earlier and I'd like to reiterate it: Ed has the numbers, but man I'll tell ya some of Troys picks have been works of art in how he got them. It reminds me of Carlos Hathcock (Marine Corps Sniper). He left Vietnam with 93 confirmed kills. A few others (Snipers) had more than him yet he is widely regarded as the best sniper [u]ever[/u] because of HOW he got them (He's the guy who actually did shoot an enemy sniper -THROUGH HIS SCOPE - who was about to shoot him..., although the movie is not about Carlos).

[Bltravens]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1257302679' post='272918']
It reminds me of Carlos Hathcock (Marine Corps Sniper). He left Vietnam with 93 confirmed kills. A few others (Snipers) had more than him yet he is widely regarded as the best sniper [u]ever[/u] because of HOW he got them (He's the guy who actually did shoot an enemy sniper -THROUGH HIS SCOPE - who was about to shoot him..., although the movie is not about Carlos).
[/quote]
Thats just ruthless.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1257302269' post='272915']
I'm done arguing my point for tonight but I'll gladly keep going tomorrow if you continue to do so.
[/quote]


Nighty-night!

[quote name='Bltravens' date='03 November 2009 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1257303500' post='272921']
Thats just ruthless.
[/quote]


OT: Long story short: Carlos thought he was being stalked, but wasn't exactly sure what he was shooting at other than a recurring glint. THe book is called "Marine Sniper." I highly recommend it.

[ROH522155]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1257302679' post='272918']
Yea, well Ed Reed didn't pick off Dan Marino or John Elway 45 times either.

Not really buying the excuse for the tackle difference BUT: I know Ed Reed can tackle. I also know that Troy can catch a ball in the air. But who gets more opportunites to get the sexy pick and which one is relgated to get the less prestigious tackle?

Prophet mentioned this earlier and I'd like to reiterate it: Ed has the numbers, but man I'll tell ya some of Troys picks have been works of art in how he got them. It reminds me of Carlos Hathcock (Marine Corps Sniper). He left Vietnam with 93 confirmed kills. A few others (Snipers) had more than him yet he is widely regarded as the best sniper [u]ever[/u] because of HOW he got them (He's the guy who actually did shoot an enemy sniper -THROUGH HIS SCOPE - who was about to shoot him..., although the movie is not about Carlos).
[/quote]


ok this is the last thing im gonna say tonight. How can you say Ed Reed's ints arent works of art as well? Your just sitting there watching, the qb throws the ball to a seemingly open wide reciever but at the last possible moment, the great #20 comes swooping in out of nowhere to steal it away and go racing down the field for big returns and touchdowns. A lot of the time he completely abandons his assignment because he knows from all his tape study and just pure instincts where the ball is going. Ed Reed's interceptions are things of absolute beauty.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='03 November 2009 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1257303952' post='272927']
ok this is the last thing im gonna say tonight. How can you say Ed Reed's ints arent works of art as well? Your just sitting there watching, the qb throws the ball to a seemingly open wide reciever but at the last possible moment, the great #20 comes swooping in out of nowhere to steal it away and go racing down the field for big returns and touchdowns. A lot of the time he completely abandons his assignment because he knows from all his tape study and just pure instincts where the ball is going. Ed Reed's interceptions are things of absolute beauty.
[/quote]


Again, "ball in the air." Not that difficult especially if he's running to it as well.

THIS is beauty:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGlFqdjYqu4[/media]

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='noy' date='04 November 2009 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1257295801' post='272869']
A tackle at the line of scrimmage is far more productive than a tackle one yard away from the first down. [b]Talking about where the statistic was acquired isn't an opinion, it's simply breaking down a standard stat into a more specific stat.
[/b]
If the NFL broke down exactly where each statistic was acquired, I'd put money on Polamalu having more critical tackles than Reed (that, is an opinion) in their best seasons. Could Polamalu possibly be able to work the line of scrimmage better than Ed Reed? Welllll he IS a strong safety, that's part of his job description. It comes back to the fundamental argument; strong safety supports the run defense more, free safety supports the pass defense more.

You know the only proof that is necessary? That this topic hasn't been settled by anyone, ESPN couldn't do it if they put $10 mil of research into it...or could they?




Why are we talking about the duration of their excellence instead of the quality? [b]A great player is remembered and feared for their best season[/b]; [b]Ed Reed, in terms of consistency and longevity of his skill, has outperformed Troy[/b], as the stats identify. However, just because Ed started to pack a punch earlier in relation to Troy doesn't mean one's skills peaks higher than the other. And they may plateau at different aspects of football, but to say one is strictly better than the other in terms of football effectiveness could be argued for decades.

The argument then becomes how each player affects each team. I think we can all agree there, both players are vital for their defenses.
[/quote]
I think you missed my point, I wasn't debating whether the play is made exactly at the line or 1 yard behind, for arguments sake its the same flaming thing. Derek Anderson had a 'great season' in 2006. Of course Drew Brees is better because he does it consistently. You can't argue one great season is equal to multiple seasons at the highest level.

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1257296429' post='272872']
First of all, I am not arguing that Troy is better. [b]I am arguing against you that Ed is flat out better than Troy just because he's run back a bunch of picks. [/b]Second I NEVER said "[i]Polamalu makes plays at the line of scrimmage [u]which Reed doesn't do[/u][/i]" although there is some truth to that.

As you have been told before, Ed Reed gets opportunities to make the pick that Troy does not get. [b]Troys worth can't always be measured by something as tangible as a stat.[/b] Teams game plan around him and how to figure out what he's doing. Who does that with Ed? He splits the field and that's pretty much it.

If we're going to base this on personal feelings alone then fine; let's go there:

Mine: Put Troy at FS and let him play back in deep zone coverage 75% of the time and he will have the numbers Ed Reed does. No question in my mind.

Put Ed Reed up on the line on a 4th and inches and MAYBE he gets in on the play. Troy is the first one to get to the ball carrier in those situations.
Troy is clutch. [b]I'd liken Ed Reed to Alex Rodriguez:[/b] Is he a bad (butt)? Sure, but how often does he make those highlight reel plays when the game is on the line? [b]Ed's big play always seems to come when the oppostion is forced to throw it. [/b]


Troy usually makes the play when we need it.


With regards to stats...Again. Stats may not lie, but they do decieve. [b]They never tell the whole story but some folks (like yourself) latch onto to a number and use it to proclaim your guy as the best there has ever been[/b]. It reminds of those teams that boast they have a top ranked pass defense knowing full and well it's because they can't stop the run.
[/quote]
Well that's nice, yet again you leave out the TACKLES figure which have be mentioned several times and are continually omitted. And I agree, so don't accuse me of posting speculate garbage when you are going on 'what teams have to do to negate Troy' as a reason. Because although probably true, is along the same lines of what I was saying about Ed. Liken him to A-Rod, he is the best player. Do you actually watch Ravens games? Agreeing largely about the value of stats then using hyperbole to attempt undermining the perspective is not wise either. Lets face it, there aren't many ways to measure it beyond stats and these fairly observational grounds from which we can monitor respective contributions.

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1257297380' post='272876']
That's a laugh. Half of your argument is that I[i] [b]"can't win because this is a Ravens forum."[/i] No kidding there!
[/b]
[b]I also provided a comparison between some other pretty good players and you totally dismissed it[/b] (despite the fact that it blew a big hole in your arguement) citing some one-dimensional stats and an Ed Reed Highlight video for cryin out loud. I find that to be laughable. [b]I'll bet I could find a Ryan Leaf highlight video somewhere that makes him look pretty good too[/b].
[/quote]
[b]I said NFL fans, not Ravens fans[/b]. Those with a long term following of the game will vote in larger numbers for Reed, I can assure you. No I didn't, I acknowledged those players were excellent, as I have Polamalu. Darren Sharper and Brian Dawkins are wonderful players. Sharper has been in the league since 1997, Dawkins 1996. Ed entered the league in 2002. So Ed gets interceptions at a much better strike, and will emulate Sharper's numbers if he isn't forced to retire due to injury. You could possibly even find a video that makes Ben Roethlisberger look cool... that might be pushing it though.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1257306766' post='272941']
I think you missed my point, I wasn't debating whether the play is made exactly at the line or 1 yard behind, for arguments sake its the same flaming thing. Derek Anderson had a 'great season' in 2006. Of course Drew Brees is better because he does it consistently. You can't argue one great season is equal to multiple seasons at the highest level.


Well that's nice, yet again you leave out the TACKLES figure which have be mentioned several times and are continually omitted. And I agree, so don't accuse me of posting speculate garbage when you are going on 'what teams have to do to negate Troy' as a reason. Because although probably true, is along the same lines of what I was saying about Ed. Liken him to A-Rod, he is the best player. Do you actually watch Ravens games? Agreeing largely about the value of stats then using hyperbole to attempt undermining the perspective is not wise either. Lets face it, there aren't many ways to measure it beyond stats and these fairly observational grounds from which we can monitor respective contributions.


[b]I said NFL fans, not Ravens fans[/b]. Those with a long term following of the game will vote in larger numbers for Reed, I can assure you. No I didn't, I acknowledged those players were excellent, as I have Polamalu. Darren Sharper and Brian Dawkins are wonderful players. Sharper has been in the league since 1997, Dawkins 1996. Ed entered the league in 2002. So Ed gets interceptions at a much better strike, and will emulate Sharper's numbers if he isn't forced to retire due to injury. [b]You could possibly even find a video that makes Ben Roethlisberger look cool... that might be pushing it though.
[/b][/quote]

Not only are there videos, he has rings that make him look cool.

Can you find one of Ed Reed picking him off? I mean they see eachother twice per year. Surely there has to be plenty of them right?

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='ravensorioleshoyas522155' date='04 November 2009 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1257303952' post='272927']
ok this is the last thing im gonna say tonight. How can you say Ed Reed's ints arent works of art as well? Your just sitting there watching, the qb throws the ball to a seemingly open wide reciever but at the last possible moment, the great #20 comes swooping in out of nowhere to steal it away and go racing down the field for big returns and touchdowns. A lot of the time he completely abandons his assignment because he knows from all his tape study and just pure instincts where the ball is going. Ed Reed's interceptions are things of absolute beauty.
[/quote]
Preach brother.

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1257307016' post='272943']
Not only are there videos, he has rings that make him look cool.

Can you find one of Ed Reed picking him off? I mean they see eachother twice per year. Surely there has to be plenty of them right?
[/quote]
I don't know if there is enough time for a deep throw before Pittsburgh's useless offensive line caves in and he has to make a play with his feet. I love it when it gets what it deserves, a sack or a fumble. As opposed to some flipping 70 yard catch and run after 10 seconds of holding the ball too long.

Don't speak too soon though, you're only tempting fate with Ed Reed.

[McBoller]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='03 November 2009 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1257304585' post='272932']
Again, "ball in the air." Not that difficult especially if he's running to it as well.

THIS is beauty:


[/quote]
admittedly, that IS the best INT i have ever seen!

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1257308292' post='272947']
Preach brother.


I don't know if there is enough time for a deep throw before Pittsburgh's useless offensive line caves in and he has to make a play with his feet. I love it when it gets what it deserves, a sack or a fumble. As opposed to some flipping 70 yard catch and run after 10 seconds of holding the ball too long.

Don't speak too soon though, you're only tempting fate with Ed Reed.
[/quote]

Our o-line's been pretty solid and Ben..., well the only person with a better winning record is Tom Brady. But wait, this debate is about Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu isn't it? But now I see your true colors as just another hater.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='03 November 2009 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1257306766' post='272941']
[b]I said NFL fans, not Ravens fans[/b]. Those with a long term following of the game will vote in larger numbers for Reed, I can assure you. No I didn't, I acknowledged those players were excellent, as I have Polamalu. Darren Sharper and Brian Dawkins are wonderful players. Sharper has been in the league since 1997, Dawkins 1996. Ed entered the league in 2002. So Ed gets interceptions at a much better strike, and will emulate Sharper's numbers if he isn't forced to retire due to injury. You could possibly even find a video that makes Ben Roethlisberger look cool... that might be pushing it though.
[/quote]

Actually, you said "[b]Home Town Bias[/b], leaves (me) no chance." my bad.

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='02 November 2009 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1257208280' post='272076']
Throw in Dawkins, Sharper, [i]whoever you want[/i].

Half the stats listed refer to tackles and interceptions, not simply returns. Although I would suggest intercepting the ball and returning it for six is [i]hugely[/i] valuable.

All the same, arguing Polamalu is better in here is probably not even worth attempting. Not saying people don't respect him, it's just stats plus hometown bias really leave you no chance!
[/quote]

[BloodRaven]

You're digging a hole warden, nobody here agrees with your yellow and black vision.

So um... what is a Polamalu exactly? is that some sort of shellfish? no seriously though Im hijacking this thread back.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1257311027' post='272958']
Our o-line's been pretty solid and Ben..., well the only person with a better winning record is Tom Brady. But wait, this debate is about Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu isn't it? But now I see your true colors as just another hater.
[/quote]
My true colours are [color="#800080"]purple[/color] and black. You brought Big Jen into it so don't get all ansy about me hating on him. Of course I dislike him, does anyone in these forums barring you and your fellow yellow peril?

[quote name='thewarden86' date='04 November 2009 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1257311296' post='272960']
Actually, you said "[b]Home Town Bias[/b], leaves (me) no chance." my bad.
[/quote]
Home town bias and the rest of NFL fans who have long-term knowledge of the game.