Go Back To The 3-4 Please!

[RavFanStuckInOHIO]

We don't have a Sam Adams or a Tony Siragusa any more. They collapsed offensive lines game in game out. They also ended up in the backfield more times than not. We have Kelly Greg (a good tackler and a bruiser by most standards but will not scare an offensive line by any standards). He rarely sees the QB. Trevor Pryce(doing a decent job this year) had a phenomenal year as a free agent but has steadily dropped off since then. Naghta is a force but needs a good compliment in the middle. Greg and Pryce are not that. Suggs has been disappointing for the money he was paid. By the way, never thought Suggs was worth that much money. He always finds a way to duck training camp. Now he is having problems adjusting to the pace and still trying to catch his breath. Ravens could have bought a good WR and 2 corners and oxygen for Suggs for that kind of money.
Bottom line is that our corners look so bad because we have no pass rush. When we play 6'4 wide receivers without a pass rush what do we expect from Foxworth and Washington. Neither have vertical leaps like the receivers they're defending. The answer is pass rush. A 3-4 with the talent we have at linebacker should help the corners in that regard. Our corners are fast and can keep up with most but you better get in that QBs face or we lose 33 to 31. Pittsburgh shows the example. A steady diet of Harrison and Farrior in your face makes your defensive line look great and your corners better than they are. 3-4 is the way. 4-3 teamsw usually have big big studs up the middle. Make the change, I don't see a whole lot happening in trades.

[Bltravens]

Pittsburgh has edge rushers on both sides that we dont, plus on 3rd downs Hampton isnt on the field, so they collapse the pocket while getting edge pressure. We get edge pressure with Suggs, we just dont have anyone to collapse the pocket.

[MKdave]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='19 October 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1255985183' post='262646']
Pittsburgh has edge rushers on both sides that we dont, plus on 3rd downs Hampton isnt on the field, so they collapse the pocket while getting edge pressure. We get edge pressure with Suggs, we just dont have anyone to collapse the pocket.
[/quote]

We do have guys that could man that other rusher spot, we're just playing them as 4-3 linebackers or not even dressing them. I mean, Jameel could be a stud pass rusher, but he is NOT a 4-3 linebacker. I really thought he could be in the offseason, but it looks like I greatly overestimated his pass coverage capabilities. If we come out in a 3-4 he, Jarret and Kruger could rotate in and provide the adjacent pass rush we need to work as a 3-4. We don't need to be pittsburgh good, we just need to stop welcoming teams into our endzone.

[kash96ravenstotalfan]

Let's face reality guys. We have played a 3 -4 scheme as long as I can remember. We know it, we accept it and we have proven we can win with it. Why did Mattison come in this year and decide to fix something that was not broken? Don;t understand it, maybe he wanted to put his stamp on the team - but it is not working. Time for Harbs to step-up as head coach and read Mattison the riot act. No need to fix something that is not broken. Nough said.

[ravensfolife]

[quote name='kash96ravenstotalfan' date='19 October 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1255990268' post='262759']
Let's face reality guys. We have played a 3 -4 scheme as long as I can remember. We know it, we accept it and we have proven we can win with it. Why did Mattison come in this year and decide to fix something that was not broken? Don;t understand it, maybe he wanted to put his stamp on the team - but it is not working. Time for Harbs to step-up as head coach and read Mattison the riot act. No need to fix something that is not broken. Nough said.
[/quote]
the thing is we dont even have to be a great 3-4 team nemore. We average what 30 pt a game? hold the other team to 20 and we win. thats not to ask for a ravens defense. Im glad we loss, if we won There wouldnt be any outrage goin into the bye

[cityboy02]

3-4 yea

[cityboy02]

[quote name='Haloti Hell' date='19 October 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1255976956' post='262470']
Leonard was a good fit in our D, I liked that kid a lot. He played with enthusiasm and sense of pride, it was a shame losing him.
[/quote]
I agree I was dissappointed to see him go

[Bltravens]

[quote name='MKdave' date='19 October 2009 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1255989195' post='262733']
We do have guys that could man that other rusher spot, we're just playing them as 4-3 linebackers or not even dressing them. I mean, Jameel could be a stud pass rusher, but he is NOT a 4-3 linebacker. I really thought he could be in the offseason, but it looks like I greatly overestimated his pass coverage capabilities. If we come out in a 3-4 he, Jarret and Kruger could rotate in and provide the adjacent pass rush we need to work as a 3-4. We don't need to be pittsburgh good, we just need to stop welcoming teams into our endzone.
[/quote]
The problem isnt our edge pressure, Suggs provides good edge pressure constantly for the most part and JJ is off and on, either JJ beats his guy or his blitz is totally negated. Pryce provides an adequate push but is nothing special right now. You guys do realize that we had to do all those crazy blitzs because we dont have pure pass rushers on our team, at all. We can only get to the QB if we overload a side, which leaves leaves holes in coverage and our DBs on an island and really our corners can barely cover with help.

[noy]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' date='19 October 2009 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1255981594' post='262585']
39-game streak of no rushers going over 100 yards was when we were in the 3-4. In the 4-3 we've given up 100+ yards to a rusher twice this year.
[/quote]

Pretty much sums it up right there. We don't care what New England is doing, our defense was elite in the 3-4, all of a sudden in the 4-3 we're showing some glaring holes? I don't believe in coincidences...

In all honesty, I was excited to see what we could do in a 4-3, knowing it came from our superbowl year. Now, however, it seems to be a bust with our current personnel. Good leaders know when to admit mistakes, we won't crucify him or say "we told you so" if he changes back. If he continues with this scheme and we keep getting blown up, then we will start the chanting. I hope Mattison knows this as well.

[JoeFlax]

[quote name='Gtown Purple' date='19 October 2009 - 07:53 AM' timestamp='1255953235' post='262073']
I think we are better built for a 3-4. [b]Our linemen except for suggs are mostly run stuffers.[/b] I think suggs is more dynamic from the lb postion instead of from the 3 point stance.
[/quote]
and there's also Pryce, but exactly!! that is why we need LBs to rush the QB, we need 3 Lineman on the front to stuff the run and hold the O-line and use our LBs for blitzing.

Ok I'm not the most knowledgeble person when it comes to defensive strategies, so don't eat me alive if I have a glaring flaw in my post, but this is just how I see it.

[hammer]

Look man...you can run a 6-4 scheme or a 9-2 scheme and this team doesn't have the hosses to rush the passer! They are run stuffers,,,,,, not pass rushers! And since we have been getting gashed by passing teams over and over,,,,, we are now overcompensating to stop the pass,,,, so now we have conceded the running lanes too!

The ONLY phase of the game where we have the BLOWAWAY TALENT to dictate to the other team IS PASSING. We had better build our gameplan around our strength...PASSING, or we are gonna continue to lose around our WEAKNESS....pass defense.

[mhead66]

[quote name='hammer' date='19 October 2009 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1256002702' post='262968']
Look man...you can run a 6-4 scheme or a 9-2 scheme and this team doesn't have the hosses to rush the passer! They are run stuffers,,,,,, not pass rushers! And since we have been getting gashed by passing teams over and over,,,,, we are now overcompensating to stop the pass,,,, so now we have conceded the running lanes too!

The ONLY phase of the game where we have the BLOWAWAY TALENT to dictate to the other team IS PASSING. We had better build our gameplan around our strength...PASSING, or we are gonna continue to lose around our WEAKNESS....pass defense.
[/quote]


Hammer, my friend...

I know you're absolutely in [size="5"][b]LOVE[/b][/size] with the passing game, but this thread has been about the defensive alignment used by Mattison.

The solution to the troubling pass defense deficencies could be lack of a pass rush, incapable defensive backs, switching to the 4-3 with personnel more suited to the 3-4... pick your poison.

But the answer to the passing defense problems is not to pass the ball more. Pass it 90% of the time, like Philadelphia, and you still have pass defense problems.

Remember, in most games, both the offense and defense play 60 plays or so... They won't give Joe Flacco the ball on every play, no matter how strenuously you ask. You have to play defense when the other team has the ball...

Yes, if you score 56 points every week on offense, your pass defense is less of a problem. I think that's your perspective, if I understand it...

Just messing with ya'

[wayne]

If anyone find out any info with the disussion of our D please don't hesitate to post it. I don't mind us using the 4-3 sometimes but not all the time or most of the time. I just knew that Mattison being Rex's protege was going to be dialing up blitzes left and right and our D wouldn't miss a beat with Rex and Co. being gone but thats obviously not the case.

Let this type of crap continue to go on and fans and the players hopefully will be calling for Mattison's head on a platter. The way our D has been playing is unexcusable. This is not Ravens Football!I loved the days of us having 10-14 point games and our D holding the opposition to under 10-14 points a game than this and I'm not taking anything away from the O b/c for the most part, they have been on fire!

[hammer]

[quote name='mhead66' date='19 October 2009 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1256003809' post='262985']


Hammer, my friend...

I know you're absolutely in [size="5"][b]LOVE[/b][/size] with the passing game, but this thread has been about the defensive alignment used by Mattison.

The solution to the troubling pass defense deficencies could be lack of a pass rush, incapable defensive backs, switching to the 4-3 with personnel more suited to the 3-4... pick your poison.

But the answer to the passing defense problems is not to pass the ball more. Pass it 90% of the time, like Philadelphia, and you still have pass defense problems.

Remember, in most games, both the offense and defense play 60 plays or so... They won't give Joe Flacco the ball on every play, no matter how strenuously you ask. You have to play defense when the other team has the ball...

Yes, if you score 56 points every week on offense, your pass defense is less of a problem. I think that's your perspective, if I understand it...

Just messing with ya'
[/quote]

Nah, no problem. You are just telling the truth. I don't have a problem with that. The Ravens passing game is our BEST strength. I might not have done a good enough job in communicating this, but I have already conceded that we are not gonna defend ANYBODY!

You are corect sir, you just have to factor in what I have long ago concluded about the defense. I accepted what I saw since the first KC game, as it relates to this defense. It is just not what we are used to. I also latched on to the potential I saw in Joe Flacco too. I just made the change early. Most fans didn't.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='wayne' date='20 October 2009 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1256004271' post='262991']
If anyone find out any info with the disussion of our D please don't hesitate to post it. I don't mind us using the 4-3 sometimes but not all the time or most of the time. [b]I just knew that Mattison being Rex's protege was going to be dialing up blitzes left and right and our D wouldn't miss a beat with Rex and Co. being gone but thats obviously not the case.[/b]

Let this type of crap continue to go on and fans and the players hopefully will be calling for Mattison's head on a platter. The way our D has been playing is unexcusable. This is not Ravens Football!I loved the days of us having 10-14 point games and our D holding the opposition to under 10-14 points a game than this and I'm not taking anything away from the O b/c for the most part, they have been on fire!
[/quote]
Tell me about it, how disappointing it has been.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Alexir' date='19 October 2009 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1255976160' post='262451']
all you did was name 3 teams that dont have the personnel. We do have the personnel for the 3-4 and it is proven by our number 2 defense last year.
[/quote]

To be fair it was a [i]hybrid[/i] 4-3/3-4 defense we ran and Gooden isn't the most physical ILB at the point of attack but thats just me. There are a few things wrong with our D that need adjustments outside of the front 7 scheme.

[Tighthead420]

I thought, in the off-season, that the 4-3 scheme would improve our D. Gregg was back, Ngata is...well Ngata. Pryce and Bannan can hold their own. Now we are seeing where the failures in the D are with this scheme. Again, they better fix it now or next week could spell close to the end for the season.

Does anyone else think Mattison changed everything around and is now being stubborn to try to save face? Just like when you work really hard at something, you are reluctant to admit it is not working and you need to change course. You either grow some cojones and admit you need help, or make a change in your approach, or you continue to fail.

[ravensfolife]

[quote name='Tighthead420' date='20 October 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1256065021' post='263416']
I thought, in the off-season, that the 4-3 scheme would improve our D. Gregg was back, Ngata is...well Ngata. Pryce and Bannan can hold their own. Now we are seeing where the failures in the D are with this scheme. Again, they better fix it now or next week could spell close to the end for the season.

Does anyone else think Mattison changed everything around and is now being stubborn to try to save face? Just like when you work really hard at something, you are reluctant to admit it is not working and you need to change course. You either grow some cojones and admit you need help, or make a change in your approach, or you continue to fail.
[/quote]
Hopefully they were waiting for the bye week to install a new package....I guess if we see paul kruger inactive that will be a sign that nothing changed and i wont even bother to watch cuz we will get embarassed

[TSizzle00]

Move Webb to #3 CB
Move Oglesby from practice squad to #4 (he showed more heart and played better then Frank Walker)
Move Walker to #5 CB
Bring in a FA CB to replace Carr

CHANGE the D back to a all 3-4 with Ngata, Gregg and Pryce at Dline
Suggs, Gooden, Lewis, Johnson

If they are going to use the 4-3 at least dress Kruger to play DE!

USE PRESNAP MOTION SO THEY DONT KNOW WHERE THE BLITZ IS COMING FROM!

Maybe it will work maybe it wont. We do know what they are doing right now is not working PERIOD!

[Purple Punishment]

You know, Mattison didnt want to go back to the "Organized Chaos" type of D but when Ray Ray sacked Favre he came in right off of JJ's left side completely unseen and untouched. Lets be honest people, our LB Corps is where our strength is in pass rushing. 3-4 allows us to utilize our full potential as a defense. I dont agree that confusing the Offenses we face is a way to make up for an "average" secondary. There is a mental aspect of the game too and if you take your opponents mind away from the point of attack, you have surely won the battle. Bring back the 3-4 Mattison and stop trying to create your own identity by taming our players. This is not the Swamp and its surely not the SEC. I wanna say more but i havent the strength to type more

[T-Sizzle55]

[quote name='Tighthead420' date='20 October 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1256065021' post='263416']
I thought, in the off-season, that the 4-3 scheme would improve our D. Gregg was back, Ngata is...well Ngata. Pryce and Bannan can hold their own. Now we are seeing where the failures in the D are with this scheme. Again, they better fix it now or next week could spell close to the end for the season.

[/quote]

I agree! We were absolutely stacked on the D line. We have an overflow of great talent in our LBs and our DLs. There is a nice mix of veterans and young guys there. So I thought putting more D linemen would help our LBs stay healthy and our CBs to make more plays.

Well...that's not happening. If our secondary could cover people they would give our front 7 that extra second to make a play on the quarterback. As well as if our D line could put more pressure on the quarterback, then they wouldn't leave our secondary high and dry covering people forever. It's a give and take relationship and they ALL must step up to truly play like a Raven. It starts with scheme, then linemen, then linebackers, then secondary. I'm tired of blaming people, I want to see results, bottom line. It doesn't matter who we blame. We don't need blame, we only need hard work and true solutions!

You can blame it on the rain, Cuz the rain don't mind, and the rain don't care!

[The Raven]

This is going to sound really stupid, but with all the talent at LB and DL, why not go with more of a 4-4 base, which would also eliminate Landry's pass coverage deficiencies this year. A 5-2 look would not be too bad either.
Thoughts?

[MKdave]

[quote name='The Raven' date='20 October 2009 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1256079351' post='263645']
This is going to sound really stupid, but with all the talent at LB and DL, why not go with more of a 4-4 base, which would also eliminate Landry's pass coverage deficiencies this year. A 5-2 look would not be too bad either.
Thoughts?
[/quote]
The 4-4 is a formation, but is almost never used at NFL level.
What could be done, though, is to use more 46, where the S is playing almost as if he's a LB. It's a shame Brendon went down, because he's physically perfect for the SS role in a 46.

Problem with that is that we're lacking in pass coverage, and moving a DB into the box isn't going to help that.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='The Raven' date='20 October 2009 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1256079351' post='263645']
This is going to sound really stupid, but with all the talent at LB and DL, why not go with more of a 4-4 base, which would also eliminate Landry's pass coverage deficiencies this year. A 5-2 look would not be too bad either.
Thoughts?
[/quote]
5-2 is basically the 3-4 anyway which is what we're all screaming for lol. And like MKDave stated the 4-4 is hardly used and doesnt help our secondary coverage, which has been aweful.

[MKdave]

Personally, even though I have been campaigning for the 3-4 since I heard that Mattinson proposed the switch, the formation itself is less important than the philosophy of the lineman. We've been using alot of what is technically 3-4 this year, but utilizes 4-3 principles. Namely, penetration from the D-Line and minimal disuise of the pass rusher. When you run the 3-4, there's always a chance a guy comes completely free because the line just hasn't read where they 4th rusher is coming from. And 9 times out of 10, a free rush is very, very bad news for the offense. Coming from a 4-3, that's never really going to happen, because it's too obvious for the lineman who they're blocking. So you're potentially giving the QB and extra second to throw the ball no matter what the play call.
The 3-4 is also more effective (in theory atleast) against outside runs, which figure to cause us more problems than interior ones because we've got Ngata and Ray central.
For me atleast, the 3-4 just makes more sense, for this team especially.

[kash96ravenstotalfan]

[quote name='Tighthead420' date='20 October 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1256065021' post='263416']
I thought, in the off-season, that the 4-3 scheme would improve our D. Gregg was back, Ngata is...well Ngata. Pryce and Bannan can hold their own. Now we are seeing where the failures in the D are with this scheme. Again, they better fix it now or next week could spell close to the end for the season.

Does anyone else think Mattison changed everything around and is now being stubborn to try to save face? Just like when you work really hard at something, you are reluctant to admit it is not working and you need to change course. You either grow some cojones and admit you need help, or make a change in your approach, or you continue to fail.
[/quote]
I don;'t believe that any NFL coach/coordinator would admit to making a mistake. No need for Mattison to admit to a mistake, just change the scheme and get on with it, before the season is lost

[The Raven]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='20 October 2009 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1256079946' post='263652']
5-2 is basically the 3-4 anyway which is what we're all screaming for lol. And like MKDave stated the 4-4 is hardly used and doesnt help our secondary coverage, which has been aweful.
[/quote]

Gotcha. What i was actually thinking about the 4-4 though is no SS.

Gooden - Ellerbe - Lewis - Barnes/Kruger/JJ

Suggs - Ngata- Gregg - JJ/Pryce/Kruger


Not all the time though, but thoughts?

One thing not good about 3-4 v.s. 5-2, in a 3-4 sometimes we would drop Suggs and blitz JJ and vice versa. They are our our best pass rushers and should used as such.

[hammer]

Has ANYONE ever considered a 8-10 defensive alignment for the Ravens? 8 players to get an effective pass rush and 10 players to defend the pass. That's the ONLY alignment I believe the Ravens can muster a reliable defense considering the players and the scheme they have. Obviously, that is 18 players on an 11 player front. Sorry Mattison, like the IRON CHEF SAYS....Your adjustment time is OVER!!!!