Article: "a New D-Line Philosophy"

[bce086]

Found a great article on Baltimore Sun website about the Ravens being too concerned with the pass rush. The writer makes the point that we draft big huge run stuffers, rather than lineman who are more athletic and have the ability to bull rush the opposing QB.

Link: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2009/10/a_new_dline_philosophy_for_the_ravens.html#more

Enjoy.

[Ed_Reed20]

I don't even need to read the article to know about the d-line situation. Just look the d-lineman on the team right. Ngata, Gregg, Edwards and Bannan are all at their best against the run. I haven't seen any of them collapse the pocket with consistency.

The good news is that management recognized their mistakes with drafting slow-footed o-lineman in the past and have drafted some versatile, athletic o-lineman recently. Hopefully, they'll change their philosophy with drafting DTs by next year's draft.

It's unlikely management will trade for a pass rushing DT so the only thing they can do is send more blitzes.

[Grand Weepers]

I think its a crap argument. Ngata and Suggs are d-linemen (if you assume that we line up in a base 4-3 defense) and they're pretty darn fast and agile. Kelly Gregg is a nose tackle. Nose tackles are lean and fast. And Trevor price is a great strong side DE as he is big enough to hold up, but fast enough to put pressure. I think it's a crap observation.

[BloodRaven]

Thats what they're supposed to do, its not like theyre exact clones of Sam Adams and Goose, yes we might be run stoppers first but Gregg, Ngata and Pryce are active in pursuit.

[Bltravens]

Its not crap its completely true. Ngata and Gregg dont do jack to help our edge rushers at all and thats why our pressure is sporatic. Prime example last week when Reed forced the fumble on OchoCinco, Suggs had the RT beat completely and all Palmer did was step up and Suggs could only get one hand on him. If Ngata can just even push his blockers backwards like 2 feet thats a sack and that play doesnt even happen. The last what 5 years we've been a 3-4 team so your Dline is comprised of massive run stuffers designed to take up blockers for the blitzing LBs to get to the QB. Now we're in a 4-3 and theres no interior push whatsoever. He needs to move Pryce to DT and Ngata at nose on passing situations, and put another edge rusher opposite Suggs, someone like Barnes who completely tore apart the Pats in 07 and has the capabilities to be an effective pass rusher.

[mhead66]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1255627819' post='257677']
Its not crap its completely true. Ngata and Gregg dont do jack to help our edge rushers at all and thats why our pressure is sporatic. Prime example last week when Reed forced the fumble on OchoCinco, Suggs had the RT beat completely and all Palmer did was step up and Suggs could only get one hand on him. If Ngata can just even push his blockers backwards like 2 feet thats a sack and that play doesnt even happen. The last what 5 years we've been a 3-4 team so your Dline is comprised of massive run stuffers designed to take up blockers for the blitzing LBs to get to the QB. Now we're in a 4-3 and theres no interior push whatsoever. He needs to move Pryce to DT and Ngata at nose on passing situations, and put another edge rusher opposite Suggs, someone like Barnes who completely tore apart the Pats in 07 and has the capabilities to be an effective pass rusher.
[/quote]
Agree. Ngata & Gregg combined have 0.5 sacks in 5 games. Like you said, in the 3-4, you can afford to have one blocker-eating NT, and 2 pass rushing DEs, and still get pressure, as you add in a pass-rushing LB.

In the 4-3, you need at least 1 of the 2 DTs (preferably both) to get some pass-rush... and it hasn't happened. Suggs & Pryce are pushed outside, with a RB on Suggs' side to help block... and the pass rush suffers.

[beetus]

I don't know where you guys are seeing our base defense as a pure 4-3, it's been more of a hybrid 3-4 or even a 46. A lot of 3-4 base teams have different looks where their LB pass rusher has his fist in the dirt.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='mhead66' date='15 October 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1255628308' post='257684']
Agree. Ngata & Gregg combined have 0.5 sacks in 5 games. Like you said, in the 3-4, you can afford to have one blocker-eating NT, and 2 pass rushing DEs, and still get pressure, as you add in a pass-rushing LB.

In the 4-3, you need at least 1 of the 2 DTs (preferably both) to get some pass-rush... and it hasn't happened. Suggs & Pryce are pushed outside, with a RB on Suggs' side to help block... and the pass rush suffers.
[/quote]

Well said. If the Ravens run a 3-4, the possibilities become endless. Ngata and Pryce would the end whiles Gregg occupied the middle. Ray and one of the young LBs would the ILBs and Suggs and J.J. would be on the outside. If the Ravens wanted to, they could bring Barnes, McClain or Kruger for one of the ILBs and bring an overload blitz.

The personnel is there, Mattison just needs to them right.

[mhead66]

[quote name='Grand Weepers' date='15 October 2009 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1255614273' post='257555']
I think its a crap argument. [b]Ngata[/b] and Suggs are d-linemen (if you assume that we line up in a base 4-3 defense) and they're [b]pretty darn fast and agile[/b]. [b]Kelly Gregg is a nose tackle. [u]Nose tackles are lean and fast[/u][/b]. And Trevor price is a great strong side DE as he is big enough to hold up, but fast enough to put pressure. I think it's a crap observation.
[/quote]
I don't think, at 6'0 and 315, "lean" is the best description of Kelly Gregg...

Both Ngata & Gregg are built like NTs. Haloti is 6'4, 345 - not very lean, either.

Ngata & Gregg are anchors vs. the run, but don't get much penetration vs. the pass. Suggs & Pryce are completely different builds, and have completely different results in pass rushing...

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='15 October 2009 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1255628524' post='257688']
Well said. If the Ravens run a 3-4, the possibilities become endless. Ngata and Pryce would the end whiles Gregg occupied the middle. Ray and one of the young LBs would the ILBs and Suggs and J.J. would be on the outside. If the Ravens wanted to, they could bring Barnes, McClain or Kruger for one of the ILBs and bring an overload blitz.

The personnel is there, Mattison just needs to them right.
[/quote]
We can still zone blitz in the 4-3, Suggs is obviously versatile enough to drop off the line into coverage. The possibilities arent as numerous but you can still zone blitz in the 4-3.

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1255627819' post='257677']
Its not crap its completely true. Ngata and Gregg dont do jack to help our edge rushers at all and thats why our pressure is sporatic. Prime example last week when Reed forced the fumble on OchoCinco, Suggs had the RT beat completely and all Palmer did was step up and Suggs could only get one hand on him. If Ngata can just even push his blockers backwards like 2 feet thats a sack and that play doesnt even happen. [b]The last what 5 years we've been a 3-4 team so your Dline is comprised of massive run stuffers designed to take up blockers for the blitzing LBs to get to the QB. Now we're in a 4-3 and theres no interior push whatsoever. He needs to move Pryce to DT and Ngata at nose on passing situations, and put another edge rusher opposite Suggs, someone like Barnes who completely tore apart the Pats in 07 and has the capabilities to be an effective pass rusher.[/b][/quote]

I agree completely. If we are gonna run 4-3, Pryce needs to be on the inside. He has never been a 4-3 DE. He came to Bmore as a 4-3 DT, so he knows the position. Slide him inside and rush barnes or kruger from the edge opposite suggs. We have to push the pocket and move the QB or the outside rush is not that effective.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1255628946' post='257691']
We can still zone blitz in the 4-3, Suggs is obviously versatile enough to drop off the line into coverage. The possibilities arent as numerous but you can still zone blitz in the 4-3.
[/quote]

Zone blitzes work but do you think Suggs is better in coverage than he is rushing the QB? He hasn't had the year people expected so far but he's still one of the better pass rushers on the team.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='baltiMORE RAVENS' date='15 October 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1255629332' post='257697']
I agree completely. If we are gonna run 4-3, Pryce needs to be on the inside. He has never been a 4-3 DE. He came to Bmore as a 4-3 DT, so he knows the position. Slide him inside and rush barnes or kruger from the edge opposite suggs. We have to push the pocket and move the QB or the outside rush is not that effective.
[/quote]

Where are you getting this information? Trevor Pryce been a DE since his days at Clemson.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='15 October 2009 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1255629601' post='257699']
Where are you getting this information? Trevor Pryce been a DE since his days at Clemson.
[/quote]
Ya Pryce was one of the original 290 pound monster DE freaks that were athletic and fast. However if you watch old footage of him in Denver he frequently went to the inside on pass downs and just tore apart Gs with swim moves and bull rushes. Im convinced he could wreak havok on the inside still on pass downs.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1255630418' post='257705']
Ya Pryce was one of the original 290 pound monster DE freaks that were athletic and fast. However if you watch old footage of him in Denver he frequently went to the inside on pass downs and just tore apart Gs with swim moves and bull rushes. Im convinced he could wreak havok on the inside still on pass downs.
[/quote]

I think putting him inside could work because he has the size and strength but I don't know if the coaches will do it.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='15 October 2009 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1255630665' post='257708']
I think putting him inside could work because he has the size and strength but I don't know if the coaches will do it.
[/quote]
Thats what makes me mad, it cant be any worse right now than what we got and has the potential to significantly upgrade the pass rush. Yet HC and DC are so stagnant in what is and isnt "prototypical" football that they refuse to try anything as simple as move a massive DE inside for pass downs.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1255630979' post='257711']
Thats what makes me mad, it cant be any worse right now than what we got and has the potential to significantly upgrade the pass rush. Yet HC and DC are so stagnant in what is and isnt "prototypical" football that they refuse to try anything as simple as move a massive DE inside for pass downs.
[/quote]

I agree. I'm not going to say Mattison is a bad coach but what his schemes either haven't been executed properly or simply haven't worked too well for 5 weeks. He needs to make a change. Of course I want the Ravens to win but if they're unable to get a consistent pass rush on Favre and he has a good game, the coaches will have a lot to mull over during the bye.

[justifythegame]

[quote name='bce086' date='15 October 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1255613664' post='257550']
Found a great article on Baltimore Sun website about the Ravens being too concerned with the pass rush. [b]The writer makes the point that we draft big huge run stuffers, rather than lineman who are more athletic[/b] and have the ability to bull rush the opposing QB.

Link: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2009/10/a_new_dline_philosophy_for_the_ravens.html#more

Enjoy.
[/quote]
Huh, i didn't read it but the part you said makes no sense. The opposite is true, ozzie and billick wanted to get more athletic on the DL and even OL. They used to have huge run stuffers years ago, but years after the superbowl the philosophy has changed to getting more athletic guys. And on the DL we haven't added anyone new that matches your description, the last one was Ngata, and he is one of the most athletic DTs in the NFL.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1255627819' post='257677']
Its not crap its completely true. Ngata and Gregg dont do jack to help our edge rushers at all and thats why our pressure is sporatic. Prime example last week when Reed forced the fumble on OchoCinco, Suggs had the RT beat completely and all Palmer did was step up and Suggs could only get one hand on him. If Ngata can just even push his blockers backwards like 2 feet thats a sack and that play doesnt even happen. The last what 5 years we've been a 3-4 team so your Dline is comprised of massive run stuffers designed to take up blockers for the blitzing LBs to get to the QB. Now we're in a 4-3 and theres no interior push whatsoever. He needs to move Pryce to DT and Ngata at nose on passing situations, and put another edge rusher opposite Suggs, someone like Barnes who completely tore apart the Pats in 07 and has the capabilities to be an effective pass rusher.
[/quote]

Times like these that I'm so proud to be a Ravens fan that it brings a tear to my eye, lol....

I think moving Pryce to DT is a great idea. Him and Ngata in the middle, and Suggs and Kruger on the ends.
Someone needs to send this to Matty asap.

[hammer]

This whole argument about Defensive Tackles providing consistent pass rush is a MYTH from the very start. It is indeed a RARE occurance to have a Defensive Tackle who can consistently (or even periodically) get pressure on the quarterback. Albert Hayneworth used to be consistent in collapsing the pocket (hence - 100 million dollar man), but even he is inconsistent in pressuring the QB this year.

The ONLY Defensive Tackle in the entire league with more than 2.0 sacks is Marcus Stroud of Buffalo. No one else has more than 1.5. Tackles are traditionally run stoppers. Sam Adams was a freak of nature (like Haynesworth), but you don't see them often.

Pass rush is normally schemed by Defensive Ends and Edge-Rushing Linebackers. The middle of the field defenders are TOTALLY commited to stopping the run... first. If you can get an air-tight pass coverage, then DT's can get in on the action. Otherwise, don't expect it.

[Bltravens]

Sam Adams wasnt much of a pass rusher. What I mean when I say we need a pass rush from our DTs is not even getting to the QB, they just need to collapse the pocket so the edge rushers to blow past the QB because he has 10 feet of space in front of him to step up in. If Ngata and Edwards can just push their blockers backwards even 4 feet our pass rush will improve dramatically. Just lean on somebody and drive forward Ngata frick sakes.

[mhead66]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='15 October 2009 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1255657376' post='257970']
Sam Adams wasnt much of a pass rusher. What I mean when I say we need a pass rush from our DTs is not even getting to the QB, they just need to collapse the pocket so the edge rushers to blow past the QB because he has 10 feet of space in front of him to step up in. If Ngata and Edwards can just push their blockers backwards even 4 feet our pass rush will improve dramatically. Just lean on somebody and drive forward Ngata frick sakes.
[/quote]
Your point is totally correct. The DTs, especially a NT in a 3-4, rarely records sacks... However, if he can drive OLinemen backwards, they can collapse the pocket, and force the QB back, into the DE/LBs rush, or force them to scramble.

BTW - Sam Adams wasn't terrible at pass rushing, for a 6'3, 350 pound behemoth. In 14 seasons, he had 44 sacks - not bad for a NT.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='mhead66' date='15 October 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1255658240' post='257975']
Your point is totally correct. The DTs, especially a NT in a 3-4, rarely records sacks... However, if he can drive OLinemen backwards, they can collapse the pocket, and force the QB back, into the DE/LBs rush, or force them to scramble.

BTW - Sam Adams wasn't terrible at pass rushing, for a 6'3, 350 pound behemoth. In 14 seasons, he had 44 sacks - not bad for a NT.
[/quote]
Actually ya that is very good, I was just going off of his time here when he only had 2.5 in 2 years. What Adams was effective at with Siragusa was driving back the Gs and Cs so that Burnett and McCrary's motors could get to the QB no matter where he went.

[hammer]

[quote name='mhead66' date='15 October 2009 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1255658240' post='257975']
Your point is totally correct. The DTs, especially a NT in a 3-4, rarely records sacks... However, if he can drive OLinemen backwards, they can collapse the pocket, and force the QB back, into the DE/LBs rush, or force them to scramble.

BTW - Sam Adams wasn't terrible at pass rushing, for a 6'3, 350 pound behemoth. In 14 seasons, he had 44 sacks - not bad for a NT.
[/quote]

Glad you cleared that up, because by DT standards, Sam Adams consistently blew up the middle of the line on pass plays and run plays.

But the point is this.... Most pass plays call for a 3, 5, or 7 step-drop. If you are rushing the edge at a 15 yard angle, you are ACTUALLY aiding the offensive scheme, because THE PLAN is for the QB to have room to step up in the pocket. The Ravens front four is not doing a good job in rushing the passer. Neither Suggs, nor Pryce have been effective.

With that being said...Mattison's scheme may be the main reason for that, because he does not seem to know WHEN to do WHAT. Their is no deception or unconventional thinking in the scheme to rush the passer. Ryan had basically the same players, he just happened to be more clever in his fooball IQ than Mattison.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='Grand Weepers' date='16 October 2009 - 01:44 AM' timestamp='1255614273' post='257555']
I think its a crap argument. [b]Ngata and Suggs[/b] are d-linemen (if you assume that we line up in a base 4-3 defense) and they're pretty darn [b]fast and agile[/b]. Kelly Gregg is a nose tackle. Nose tackles are lean and fast. And Trevor price is a great strong side DE as he is big enough to hold up, but fast enough to put pressure. I think it's a crap observation.
[/quote]
Agreed. Same for Trevor Pryce.

[BloodRaven]

The arguement is flawed anyway, if you try to be the Giants D-line but you dont have the right personnel then you end up with a d-line like the Falcons.

We simply don't have the personnel to do everything. No team has 4 linemen that can stack blocks, collapse the pocket AND rush single gaps, not even the Giants.

[RoflDogs]

[quote name='beetus' date='15 October 2009 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1255628446' post='257686']
I don't know where you guys are seeing our base defense as a pure 4-3, it's been more of a hybrid 3-4 or even a 46. A lot of 3-4 base teams have different looks where their LB pass rusher has his fist in the dirt.
[/quote]


Its pretty obvious that we are using a 43 with Johnson standing at OLB and Suggs with his hands down and Pryce at DE

[flynismo]

[quote name='hammer' date='15 October 2009 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1255660148' post='257984']
Glad you cleared that up, because by DT standards, Sam Adams consistently blew up the middle of the line on pass plays and run plays.

But the point is this.... Most pass plays call for a 3, 5, or 7 step-drop. If you are rushing the edge at a 15 yard angle, you are ACTUALLY aiding the offensive scheme, because THE PLAN is for the QB to have room to step up in the pocket. The Ravens front four is not doing a good job in rushing the passer. Neither Suggs, nor Pryce have been effective.

With that being said...Mattison's scheme may be the main reason for that, because he does not seem to know WHEN to do WHAT. Their is no deception or unconventional thinking in the scheme to rush the passer. Ryan had basically the same players, he just happened to be more clever in his fooball IQ than Mattison.
[/quote]


Ryan had much better weapons than Mattison, not basically the same players. Just from last year alone, he had CMac (for 6 games, anyway), Samari Rolle, Bart Scott and Jim Leohnard. That's over a third of our defense that has turned over in just one offseason. And all of those guys, with the possible exception of Leohnard, are much better than the guys replacing them.
The personnel is the problem, not Mattison.

[AlaskanRavensFan]

Some of you have either not been watching the games or know very little about defense. We don't always run any one base defense. We run 4-3, 3-4, nickel with 4 man front, nickel with 3 man front, dime (both 4 man and 3 man fronts), and even 46 looks. All defenses in the NFL run a myriad of defensive formations.

Furthermore, Nose tackles are [i]designed[/i] to take up 2 blockers and be stout against the run. (that goes for 3-4 and 4-3) The 3-techinque in a 4-3 is the "Defensive Tackle" who is lined up on the outside shoulder of the guard.(Warren Sapp is the prototype for the 3 technique)He is the one-gap penetrator for interior lineman and is the one who would need pass rush ability. The 4-3 Nose tackle is lined up on the outside shoulder of the Center 1-technique). (Pat Williams and Tony Siragusa are good examples)

Trevor Pryce already plays inside on 3rd downs. (nickel and dime defenses) so....that's already being done.

The article was hardly insightful, (dwan edwards and Trevor pryce can both play 3-tech and are pass rushing DT's)(Pryce is also atheltic enough to play LE in a 4-3 and 5 technique in a 3-4.). Dwan has been seeing a lot of playing time and was playing quite a bit at both a 3-4 end spot and inside at 4-3 DT.

Some of you would do well to click on this link. If you keep clicking to the next page it also breaks down the 3-4. (Hopefully this will make for better posting by all)

http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine.html

[bce086]

[quote name='AlaskanRavensFan' date='16 October 2009 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1255670168' post='258046']
Some of you have either not been watching the games or know very little about defense. We don't always run any one base defense. We run 4-3, 3-4, nickel with 4 man front, nickel with 3 man front, dime (both 4 man and 3 man fronts), and even 46 looks. All defenses in the NFL run a myriad of defensive formations.

Furthermore, Nose tackles are [i]designed[/i] to take up 2 blockers and be stout against the run. (that goes for 3-4 and 4-3) The 3-techinque in a 4-3 is the "Defensive Tackle" who is lined up on the outside shoulder of the guard.(Warren Sapp is the prototype for the 3 technique)He is the one-gap penetrator for interior lineman and is the one who would need pass rush ability. The 4-3 Nose tackle is lined up on the outside shoulder of the Center 1-technique). (Pat Williams and Tony Siragusa are good examples)

Trevor Pryce already plays inside on 3rd downs. (nickel and dime defenses) so....that's already being done.

The article was hardly insightful, (dwan edwards and Trevor pryce can both play 3-tech and are pass rushing DT's)(Pryce is also atheltic enough to play LE in a 4-3 and 5 technique in a 3-4.). Dwan has been seeing a lot of playing time and was playing quite a bit at both a 3-4 end spot and inside at 4-3 DT.

Some of you would do well to click on this link. If you keep clicking to the next page it also breaks down the 3-4. (Hopefully this will make for better posting by all)

http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine.html
[/quote]

Great post.