The Cornerbacks Are Not The Problem.

[ravensfan160]

I more or less agree that our problems are not all bad play by our corners. We need more of a pass rush.

However, I'm really starting to think that Paul Kruger better become a Pro Bowl caliber player because either with that draft pick, or by trading up furter into the second round, we could have gotten ourselves a nice young corner to groom. And that corner would be helping our team right now as opposed to being inactive on gameday.

[Bltravens]

He should really just play Kruger and save his "hes not a good ST'er" line for someone else. We have like 3 or 4 guys that actually get down the field to make a ST tackle anyway so whats Kruger taking away from a ST guy that doesnt have the capabilities to contribute on defensive or offensive downs. Let the kid go out and play already, Id be hard pressed to imagine Kruger costing us a ST touchdown of all guys.

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1255452525' post='256114']
Well depends on how you interpret the stats. We have 11 sacks. There are several teams ahead of us tied with 12 and 14. There are only 7 other sack totals higher than our 11.
And as I was alluding, sacks are not the be-all, end-all when it comes to pressure n the QB. We get enough pressure to be effective. Maybe its not as dazzling as our 2006 defense's was, but it's good enough to not be a problem.
[/quote]
I usually agree with you, but this time I feel as if we're watching different games. Wheres the big blitz packages, no one is effectively getting to the QB. We cant rush 3 run stoppers and expect to apply pressure adequately.

Both sides of the argument are correct. We have problems that need to be addressed if we not winning against teams like Cincinnati. Our offense didnt look half as good as they have but thats another thread.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1255452525' post='256114']
And as I was alluding, sacks are not the be-all, end-all when it comes to pressure n the QB. We get enough pressure to be effective. Maybe its not as dazzling as our 2006 defense's was, but it's good enough to not be a problem.
[/quote]

I don't think sacks are end-all, be-all and I don't understand you feel the team gets enough pressure to be effective. 2006 was a special year. The personnel was perfect and players like Pryce and Kelly Gregg still had the legs to be productive. I'm not expecting this team to equal the production of '06's team but in my opinion, the pass rush and as a result, the coverage have all been sub-par.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' date='13 October 2009 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1255453041' post='256120']
I usually agree with you, but this time I feel as if we're watching different games. Wheres the big blitz packages, no one is effectively getting to the QB. We cant rush 3 run stoppers and expect to apply pressure adequately.

Both sides of the argument are correct. We have problems that need to be addressed if we not winning against teams like Cincinnati. Our offense didnt look half as good as they have but thats another thread.
[/quote]


I guess it is possible that I'm only seeing what I want to see; wouldnt be the first time...but I think that it is also possible that people are so used to incredible defenses that anything less seems to be unacceptable. There are over 20 other teams in the NFL that wish they had as many sacks as we do, and we are one of the only teams to force a fumble and score a TD because of our pass rush.
Our pass rush isnt quite where I'd like to see it, but I cant in good conscience say we have a poor pass rush.

btw, where the heck have you been man?? I know family life is demanding and all, but priorities man! Ravens come first!

[Bltravens]

06 was our perfect storm year, everything fell into place. Lewis was back healthy, we got McNair so our offense could actually score points and stop being tards with the ball. Our 3-4 finally had the right front 3 personnel with Ngata coming in and Pryce, we still had AD who was still a freak then and Scott came in for Hartwell and was just as good. Still bitter about the playoff loss to the Colts, can you imagine the beatdown we would have layed on the Bears if we got there?

[SSN]

An interesting discussion and a few observations:

1. This would be a better discussion if some posters weren't so adament about being right and could just contribute to the discussion. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that John, Greg, and Cam don't post here so we're all basically a bunch of fans with a "Monday Morning QB" interpretation on what we're seeing. So cool down.

2. It's my opinion that everybody here is right to a degree and everybody is wrong. Look, it's ridiculous to say that the secondary is to blame, and it's ridiculous to say that the pass rush is to blame. They work hand in hand. A QB that can find receivers open quickly will negate any amount of pass rush we generate. A solid and quick pass rush will allow our secondary to cover for less time and better coverage will allow our pass rushers more time to get to the QB. It's a big circle that just keeps pointing back at itself.

I agree that our secondary (particularly Foxworth, Landry, and Carr) havn't played real well. But how much of that is because the QBs have a lot of time to throw? I also agree that we havn't generated too much pass rush for the most part, but how much of that is scheme and the secondary's inability to cover guys off the line? Actually, I would argue that a lot of our sacks this season have been a result of the QB's inability to find an open receiver downfield and our pass rush finally getting to him.

It's all about scheme. Foxworth is an upgrade at the corner from Walker/Ogelsby who we had last year. Not sure that Landry is an upgrade at safety over Leonard, but I think Nakamura could be pretty decent in the spot.

When I see four down-lineman on a rush and three linebackers behind them waiting to react to the offense on nearly every play, I see a defense that has been set-up to fail. Our secondary is forced to run around after guys for 5-8 seconds because our front-7 is indecisive and reactive.

Greg Mattison must get his act in gear or be removed. We have the personnel. We're no worse personnel-wise than we were last year. So what's the difference? Scheme. His basic college defense doesn't work up here in big-boy land. If Mattison were able to create confusion and deceptiveness on when and from where the pass rush was coming from, it would make everybody better and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='SSN' date='13 October 2009 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1255454320' post='256134']
When I see four down-lineman on a rush and three linebackers behind them waiting to react to the offense on nearly every play, I see a defense that has been set-up to fail. Our secondary is forced to run around after guys for 5-8 seconds because our front-7 is indecisive and reactive.

Greg Mattison must get his act in gear or be removed. We have the personnel. We're no worse personnel-wise than we were last year. So what's the difference? Scheme. His basic college defense doesn't work up here in big-boy land. If Mattison were able to create confusion and deceptiveness on when and from where the pass rush was coming from, it would make everybody better and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
[/quote]

Great points. The personnel is there but it's become obvious certain players aren't being used correctly.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bltravens' date='13 October 2009 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1255453854' post='256129']
06 was our perfect storm year, everything fell into place. Lewis was back healthy, we got McNair so our offense could actually score points and stop being tards with the ball. Our 3-4 finally had the right front 3 personnel with Ngata coming in and Pryce, we still had AD who was still a freak then and Scott came in for Hartwell and was just as good. Still bitter about the playoff loss to the Colts, can you imagine the beatdown we would have layed on the Bears if we got there?
[/quote]


I'm still licking my chops at the prospect of facing the Bears. 06 should have been our year....

[Bltravens]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1255456051' post='256149']
I'm still licking my chops at the prospect of facing the Bears. 06 should have been our year....
[/quote]
uhhhhh it would have been sexy. Would have torn apart the Bears Oline, at least 5 or 6 sacks, Grossman would have literally thrown 3 or 4 picks, and thats being nice, would have had 1 defensive TD. All McNair would have had to do was channel is inner Tennessee Titan from 03, and Jamal would have to just get us 3rd and managable. Wheres Madden 07 with roster updates when I need it lol.

[flynismo]

[quote name='SSN' date='13 October 2009 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1255454320' post='256134']
An interesting discussion and a few observations:

1. This would be a better discussion if some posters weren't so adament about being right and could just contribute to the discussion. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that John, Greg, and Cam don't post here so we're all basically a bunch of fans with a "Monday Morning QB" interpretation on what we're seeing. So cool down.

2. It's my opinion that everybody here is right to a degree and everybody is wrong. Look, it's ridiculous to say that the secondary is to blame, and it's ridiculous to say that the pass rush is to blame. They work hand in hand. A QB that can find receivers open quickly will negate any amount of pass rush we generate. A solid and quick pass rush will allow our secondary to cover for less time and better coverage will allow our pass rushers more time to get to the QB. It's a big circle that just keeps pointing back at itself.

I agree that our secondary (particularly Foxworth, Landry, and Carr) havn't played real well. But how much of that is because the QBs have a lot of time to throw? I also agree that we havn't generated too much pass rush for the most part, but how much of that is scheme and the secondary's inability to cover guys off the line? Actually, I would argue that a lot of our sacks this season have been a result of the QB's inability to find an open receiver downfield and our pass rush finally getting to him.

It's all about scheme. Foxworth is an upgrade at the corner from Walker/Ogelsby who we had last year. Not sure that Landry is an upgrade at safety over Leonard, but I think Nakamura could be pretty decent in the spot.

When I see four down-lineman on a rush and three linebackers behind them waiting to react to the offense on nearly every play, I see a defense that has been set-up to fail. Our secondary is forced to run around after guys for 5-8 seconds because our front-7 is indecisive and reactive.

Greg Mattison must get his act in gear or be removed. We have the personnel. We're no worse personnel-wise than we were last year. So what's the difference? Scheme. His basic college defense doesn't work up here in big-boy land. If Mattison were able to create confusion and deceptiveness on when and from where the pass rush was coming from, it would make everybody better and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
[/quote]


I dont put the blame on one or the other exclusively. It's flawed to even try to do that. but I still think our pass rush gets a worse rep than it deserves.

btw, how are people supposed to discuss their POV without "trying to be right"? Are we to disagree in silence? Doesnt make for interesting discussion.

[SSN]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1255456444' post='256157']
btw, how are people supposed to discuss their POV without "trying to be right"? Are we to disagree in silence? Doesnt make for interesting discussion.
[/quote]

I was speaking to the earlier "you're wrong", "no, you're wrong" posts. Discussion and disagreement is what this board is intended for but when folks get short and personal, well, they're obviously more worried about being right than joining a discussion.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='BeastModeOn' date='13 October 2009 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1255445450' post='256015']
ravenet you must be kidding because u probley havent read the corners topics yet. but u need to watch the game closely. in fact go to some games and watch our secondary closely..
[/quote]

I have season tickets. I go to most games. I'm not watching the TV and just being given a picture of the opposing team's quarterbacks; I'm watching the entire field.

I don't mean that our CBs are the [i]only[/i] problem, just that they're the biggest problem.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1255456444' post='256157']
btw, how are people supposed to discuss their POV without "trying to be right"? Are we to disagree in silence? Doesnt make for interesting discussion.
[/quote]

I agree; anytime you post anything negative/critical, you'll neg repped. I can understand the reaction to my initial post as I didn't support it fully, but to say that our cornerbacks aren't the problem is absurd. I'm willing to bet that I'm way, way under 0 by the season's end.

[hammer]

[quote name='SSN' date='13 October 2009 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1255454320' post='256134']
An interesting discussion and a few observations:

1. This would be a better discussion if some posters weren't so adament about being right and could just contribute to the discussion. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that John, Greg, and Cam don't post here so we're all basically a bunch of fans with a "Monday Morning QB" interpretation on what we're seeing. So cool down.

2. It's my opinion that everybody here is right to a degree and everybody is wrong. [b][u][[size="4"]size="6"]Look, it's ridiculous to say that the secondary is to blame, and it's ridiculous to say that the pass rush is to blame.[/size][/b] [/u][/size] They work hand in hand. A QB that can find receivers open quickly will negate any amount of pass rush we generate. A solid and quick pass rush will allow our secondary to cover for less time and better coverage will allow our pass rushers more time to get to the QB. It's a big circle that just keeps pointing back at itself.

I agree that our secondary (particularly Foxworth, Landry, and Carr) havn't played real well. But how much of that is because the QBs have a lot of time to throw? I also agree that we havn't generated too much pass rush for the most part, but how much of that is scheme and the secondary's inability to cover guys off the line? Actually, I would argue that a lot of our sacks this season have been a result of the QB's inability to find an open receiver downfield and our pass rush finally getting to him.

It's all about scheme. Foxworth is an upgrade at the corner from Walker/Ogelsby who we had last year. Not sure that Landry is an upgrade at safety over Leonard, but I think Nakamura could be pretty decent in the spot.

When I see four down-lineman on a rush and three linebackers behind them waiting to react to the offense on nearly every play, I see a defense that has been set-up to fail. Our secondary is forced to run around after guys for 5-8 seconds because our front-7 is indecisive and reactive.

Greg Mattison must get his act in gear or be removed. We have the personnel. We're no worse personnel-wise than we were last year. So what's the difference? Scheme. His basic college defense doesn't work up here in big-boy land. If Mattison were able to create confusion and deceptiveness on when and from where the pass rush was coming from, it would make everybody better and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
[/quote]

Even though I can understand your rationale in your post, I must say that it IS NOT ridiculous to say that the secondary is to blame. No, they are not the ONLY ONES TO BLAME, but yes, they ARE to blame too.

In looking at this secondary, I see only one player who seems to have any sense of Football IQ, or has the right set of cleats on (Ed Reed). These other guys have no sense of timing, angle recognition, they also have poor foot security and balance. Their sightlines and periphial vision NEVER encompasses the position of the ball in relation to their position on the field. This is a lack of talent and technigue. It has nothing to do with pass rush. And that's just when they are in man to man coverage.

When they are in zone coverage, they are equally inept. They guard space in front of them and let opposing recievers run behind them, even when there is no other recievers in the pass route. I have actually seen them in the NE game allow two receivers get behind four defenders, when they were the ONLY two recievers in the pass route. No, it's not rediculous to blame the secondary play. If anything, it's rediculous the way the secondary IS PLAYING!

[JEEPercreepermd]

[quote name='tweety' date='13 October 2009 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1255449694' post='256082']
Every one is on a different page. We have 1 Great corner (2 when Rolle gets back) 1 Good corner (foxworth). 1 Average corner (Walker) and 1 weak corner (Carr). To me corner isnt a big problem.

In the upcoming games I would like to see improvement from Landry and the defensive line.

Ngata, Gregg, and Bannan package are for the run.

Barnes is good against the pass but he can't tackle and gave 7 to benson sunday.

Suggs, Lewis, and Johnson are the only all purpose players. Our front 3 or 4 are pure Rush stoppers. We need a 4th all purpose line backer and a DE who can get pressure and bulk up against the run.
[/quote]

I agree with ya Tweety. If Mattison can rotate Jameel,Barnes,Gooden,and get Kruger out there depending on the situation, the problems can be fixed. We do have players that can get after the QB, but they just need to iron out how and when they get on the field

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1255453749' post='256128']
I guess it is possible that I'm only seeing what I want to see; wouldnt be the first time...but I think that it is also possible that people are so used to incredible defenses that anything less seems to be unacceptable. There are over 20 other teams in the NFL that wish they had as many sacks as we do, and we are one of the only teams to force a fumble and score a TD because of our pass rush.
Our pass rush isnt quite where I'd like to see it, but I cant in good conscience say we have a poor pass rush.

btw, where the heck have you been man?? I know family life is demanding and all, but priorities man! Ravens come first!
[/quote]
Yes there are teams that would love to have as many sacks as we do however, I can honestly say with a good conscience that I think we have an overall poor pass rush. Primarily because its not a constant threat. The pure number of sacks can be a misleading interpretation of actual "Pressure". We may have a high percentage of sacks when pressure is applied, but overall lack a dominant pass rush.

I have lost touch with the forum a bit, its good to be back! The Ravens do come first, but only on Sundays. LOL!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' date='13 October 2009 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1255472961' post='256411']We may have a high percentage of sacks when pressure is applied, but overall lack a dominant pass rush.
[/quote]

It's going to be tough to have a "dominant" pass rush like the one we saw in '06. However, I feel there are enough players on this team that would succeed if given the opportunity to rush the passer. Mattison just needs to realize who they are and put them in the positions to succeed.

[Rocky Mountain Raven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='13 October 2009 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1255473196' post='256412']
It's going to be tough to have a "dominant" pass rush like the one we saw in '06. However, I feel there are enough players on this team that would succeed if given the opportunity to rush the passer. Mattison just needs to realize who they are and put them in the positions to succeed.
[/quote]
I won't speculate on unproven talent, but I appreciate your opinion. Lets hope they figure it out soon or we won't have a postseason later.

[JoeFlax]

[quote name='Marcus' date='13 October 2009 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1255443240' post='255985']
This might have been discussed already but the reason why our CB's look bad its simply because our pass rush is terrible. We need to trade for a pass rushing DE or draft one in the first round next year. If anything put Antwan Barnes a DE on passing downs and see what he can do.
[/quote]
agreed, I think Mattison needs to execute more exotic blitzes if we aren't putting enough pressure on the QB right now with the current plays. But that's might just be me.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Rocky Mountain Raven' date='13 October 2009 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1255473667' post='256416']
I won't speculate on unproven talent, but I appreciate your opinion. Lets hope they figure it out soon or we won't have a postseason later.
[/quote]

Forget about Kruger. J.J., Barnes and McClain have all proven they can rush the passer in the past or this year. Whether it be in the three-point stance or simply off the edge, Mattison needs to send them.

[hammer]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='13 October 2009 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1255474361' post='256425']
Forget about Kruger. J.J., Barnes and McClain have all proven they can rush the passer in the past or this year. Whether it be in the three-point stance or simply off the edge, Mattison needs to send them.
[/quote]

How many sacks did you say Barnes and McClain have for their careers? Only JJ has actually proven anything.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='hammer' date='13 October 2009 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1255476078' post='256449']
How many sacks did you say Barnes and McClain have for their careers? Only JJ has actually proven anything.
[/quote]

Barnes and McClain don't have more experience than J.J. combined. Combined, they have 4.5 career sacks to J.J.'s 14. However, in '07, I remember Barnes consistently getting pressure from a three-point stance and last year, McClain had 2 safeties. Granted, they haven't proven as much as J.J. but they have shown the potential to get to the QB.

[85isabeast]

i belive they are the problem they are tooooo short and cause to many penalties because of it.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='13 October 2009 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1255474361' post='256425']
Forget about Kruger. J.J., Barnes and McClain have all proven they can rush the passer in the past or this year. Whether it be in the three-point stance or simply off the edge, Mattison needs to send them.
[/quote]


Truthfully, I think it just comes down to opinion between Barnes, McClain and Kruger, since none of them have yet to prove anything. I personally like Kruger because he can do it all. He's probably not as good a pure rusher as Barnes (although he might be, we just dont know yet) but he appears to be a much more complete player. A poor man's T-Sizzle.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='85isabeast' date='13 October 2009 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1255476757' post='256461']
i belive they are the problem they are tooooo short and cause to many penalties because of it.
[/quote]

Foxworth and Washington draw penalties because they're too short? Antoine Winfield, Asante Samuel, Cortland Finnegan and Sheldon Brown are all the same height or shorter than the starting corners and they don't draw penalties?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='13 October 2009 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1255477122' post='256466']
Truthfully, I think it just comes down to opinion between Barnes, McClain and Kruger, since none of them have yet to prove anything. I personally like Kruger because he can do it all. He's probably not as good a pure rusher as Barnes (although he might be, we just dont know yet) but he appears to be a much more complete player. A poor man's T-Sizzle.
[/quote]

I agree with that. Kruger excelled at everything he did in pre-season. That's what make it all he more annoying why he isn't playing.

[BeastModeOn]

is any1 watching the replay of the game.. though i was there and screaming and of course drunk i wanna see some views from the tv.. and what i have beenm seeing, there has been times where carson palmer had 6-9 seconds to throw the football.. ARE U SERIOUS??? and he had nooone open still... thats called good coverage, i dont know where alot of u think we have bad corners on the outside yea maybe chris carr but lardarius will be stepping up in the slot corner position against vikings, i guarentee it. this is where every1 needs to sit down and watch the game closely, and look at the pass rush, and count how much time palmer has and still cant find someone open till the last second cuz damn in my opinion holding off a quarterback for that long is amazing.. like every1 agrees corners even great corners can only cover for a good amount of time.. with no pass rush, its hard to cover for a certain period of time... im all for FOXWORTH AND FABIAN.. fabian especially i see him bump and running and playing physical against ocho and he did against welker.. damn i saw him at NE game and he picked up sammy morris and slammed him lol.. foxworth will get his groove on by the bye week hopefully this week mattison has gamplanned perfectly and we work out our kinks and all and were ready to play some ravens football... LETS GO RAVENS!!!

[BeastModeOn]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='13 October 2009 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1255477395' post='256472']
Foxworth and Washington draw penalties because they're too short? Antoine Winfield, Asante Samuel, Cortland Finnegan and Sheldon Brown are all the same height or shorter than the starting corners and they don't draw penalties?
[/quote]

fabian hasnt drawn any penalties this year. dont worry foxworth will improve man.,im telling u he just needs to work oput his kinks.. u know that play where ocho fumbled the ball.. well fabian was locked on chad johnson.. im realizing what MATTISON does now for our defense.. once the reciever cuts across the middle thats no longer the corners job, he needs to watch the check down pass or play zone from there on out.. i seen already 9 passes over the middle, reed was lucky he forced that fumble cuz that was a play of 20 yrds plus, sorry but reed and landry cant cover.. there zone players.. mattison needs to fix this, and harb must say something... what are u people all seeing cuz from watching at the stadiums and coming back to watch on nfl network im still sticking with what im all saying, u all can disagree with me. but its whatever, i believe in our boys and have faith in every ravens player, coordinators, coach and ozzi of course. alot of u hop on every players ****** and it just gets old.. with all the negative comments.. yea carr def needs to step up or be replaced but im not gonna bash on him. yea ray lewis gave up a 19 yrd pass play over the middle to cedrick benson . ray is not fast. whats he doing covering benson, this is where tavaris gooden who has 4.5 some speed needs to be on.. landry gave up a pass right over his shoulder for 14 yrds.. there was alot of mistakes on the field on sunday. its time to put this game away and prepare for minnesota..

[BeastModeOn]

btw just to show all u haters on our corners. here a little info for u.. hope u all have been watching film!!! cuz i been going over it constantly.. just like i been saying the whole time, i know alot of people agree with me even heres a man who knows ravens football very well and he makes very good points just as well as i did..
heres tony lombardis say on the defense as well. http://www.ravens24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=13&id=3908&view=archive