Merged: Mark Clayton Threads

[flynismo]

[quote name='neepo13' date='04 October 2009 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1254713349' post='249618']
LOL. Ok Clayton absolutly sucks. He's done nothing his entire career but ride the bench and suck.
[/quote]

Finally, you admit it. Doesn't it feel better to finally let it out??


[quote]
Well, answer the question. If Clayton is so expandable tell me who could replace him? And please back it up with fact and not b.s. The floor is yours, my friend.
[/quote]

Okay, here's a few facts:

[img]http://www.keystonepersonals.com/images/clayton.PNG[/img]




So, that's a very impressive 659 yards and 2.5 TD's a year. Totally worth a first round selection.

The onus is on him to prove he is worthy of being a starting WR. The numbers speak for themselves.

Ready for some more facts?



[img]http://www.keystonepersonals.com/images/kelley.PNG[/img]





Despite only starting only 6 games his entire career, my main man Kelley is only one TD behind Clayton.
Furthermore, as you can see, he is outproducing Clayton this season FROM THE BENCH.

Now please tell me, why should we continue to let the Clayton bust saga continue, when we could be giving the job to a clearly more productive player?

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='XXXV35' date='04 October 2009 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1254696570' post='249159']
Remember in 07 when we faced the patriots, the refs blew the game for us then, well they are doing it again.
[/quote]
gotta game plan for them....

[quote name='noy' date='04 October 2009 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1254696746' post='249164']
But...they didn't...he dropped the ball, it was all on him. Secure the ball, he's supposed to be an NFL caliber WR. This should have been his thought process:

Run passed the first down marker - make cut - catch and secure the ball - get more yards if possible - call timeout.

Instead, he thought more about the TD than the actual possession. Quite frankly, that's a rookie mistake.
[/quote]

one thing that you should know about your statement.... there are also NFL Caliber DB's covering... doing their job....

[Reddawn36]

I don't mean to be calling anybody out here.. or hating on anyone.. if I offend you give me the negative rep... doesn't hurt my feelings at all but...

I love how alot of us are blaming the loss on clayton.... but how could we lose something that we never had.... were we in the lead when he dropped that ball.. no,

therefore he did not lose us the game...

There was only one time we were in the lead in that game... and it was 7-3 after that it was catch up..


just some food for thought

[hammer]

I have to admit, I have come full circle on this one. I went from having a meltdown to an absolute feeling of compassion for Mark. This kind of stuff is a players personal nightmare. No he hasn't lived up to the high expectations of a first round draft pick, but he is still young and there is a chance that he will continue to blossom. The game is over and I know that no one feels as bad as Mark. I say let it rest. But thats just me of course.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='05 October 2009 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1254716878' post='249659']
I don't mean to be calling anybody out here.. or hating on anyone.. if I offend you give me the negative rep... doesn't hurt my feelings at all but...

I love how alot of us are blaming the loss on clayton.... but how could we lose something that we never had.... were we in the lead when he dropped that ball.. no,

therefore he did not lose us the game...

There was only one time we were in the lead in that game... and it was 7-3 after that it was catch up..


just some food for thought
[/quote]


That's pretty flawed logic. No one has the game until the whistle blows.

Put it another way, if he makes the catch, he would have won the game for us.
So if he gets to be the hero, he also can be the scapegoat.

[flynismo]

[quote name='hammer' date='05 October 2009 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1254717414' post='249663']
I have to admit, I have come full circle on this one. I went from having a meltdown to an absolute feeling of compassion for Mark. This kind of stuff is a players personal nightmare. No he hasn't lived up to the high expectations of a first round draft pick, but he is still young and there is a chance that he will continue to blossom. The game is over and I know that no one feels as bad as Mark. I say let it rest. But thats just me of course.
[/quote]

I feel bad for him too. He's a good guy, and a good teammate. But I feel a lot worse for our team, and I want us to do what is best for the team, whether or not it is best for Mark.

[JEEPercreepermd]

[quote name='flynismo' date='05 October 2009 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1254717443' post='249664']
That's pretty flawed logic. No one has the game until the whistle blows.

Put it another way, if he makes the catch, he would have won the game for us.
So if he gets to be the hero, he also can be the scapegoat.
[/quote]
I think that the other side of the arguement is that if the rest of the team had performed like they are capable of, there wouldn't have been a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. I'm just curious to know the reaction if that is Derrick Mason that drops that pass instead of Clayton

[hammer]

[quote name='flynismo' date='05 October 2009 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1254717627' post='249668']
I feel bad for him too. He's a good guy, and a good teammate. But I feel a lot worse for our team, and I want us to do what is best for the team, whether or not it is best for Mark.
[/quote]

It breaks my heart, but Pro Sports is a unforgiving business. Your assessment comes with the teritory. I guess it's fare though because I would be fired if I was not competent at my job too.

[flynismo]

[quote name='JEEPercreepermd' date='05 October 2009 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1254717799' post='249670']
I think that the other side of the arguement is that if the rest of the team had performed like they are capable of, there wouldn't have been a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. I'm just curious to know the reaction if that is Derrick Mason that drops that pass instead of Clayton
[/quote]

And that is a very good argument. A lot went wrong, not all of it was Mark. But at least myself, I'm not debating that the whole team is to blame. I'm debating whether or not Mark should still be a starter.

As for Mason, that's quite different. I wouldn't be calling for Mace's head, because he has proven that he is a high quality player. He has a margin for error. Clayton has not done anything to earn any leeway, quite the opposite.

[rlh445]

[quote name='neepo13' date='04 October 2009 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1254712451' post='249581']
He single handly beat the Bengals a year ago. He made the game winning TD catch week 1. He made two clucth catchs in the playoff game vs Tenn to put us in position to score. You guys act like Clayton has never been able to produce. Look at his 06 season, he, Mason, and Heaps production was virtually the same. He's proved that he can be a solid player in this league, check out the numbers, his problem is consistancy.

No its not an opinion its a fact. Clayton is not as expendable as you want to make him seem. Who could we move up to number 2, if we didnt have Clayton? Kelley Washington? Yeah, right. D.Will? Well you guys hate him to. You want to bring Justin Harper or Eron Riley up? Who would be the other two guys in 3 wr sets, if Clayton was gone? I am not talking about Clayton as if he's the next coming of Steve Smith but he's got value for us. Without him, if you think our wr's are bad now, they'd be worse.
[/quote]

First of all, saying that he 'single-handedly' beat the Bengals is just a ludicrous statement. Did he throw the ball to himself? Did he make the defenders double team Mason to give him more room to get open? No, he didn't. He made some great plays against a completely crap secondary..no, the Bengals are not 'for real' this year, and they certainly were worse last year. If Clayton were to go down and Kelley took his place I would be completely fine with that, because unlike Clayton, I can't actually remember the last time Kelley dropped a pass, save for the ONE pass he dropped today, unlike Clayton's two. In fact, almost every time Kelley gets a catch, it means we have another first down. I don't hold my breath every time the ball gets thrown his way. I don't hate Clayton, I don't even dislike him. But after almost five years of holding my breath, and cheering Clayton, and then almost immediately hissing at him when he messes up, I am tired of it. No, he didn't lose the game for us, he just dropped an EASY pass, in the numbers, with two defenders who were not even close to him, which would have given us first down and PERHAPS the winning go ahead TD.

Neeps, you wanna know why people don't get down on Mason when he drops the occasional pass? Because if that had been Mase, the catch would have been made and this discussion would not be taking place, period. Yes, I can say that because past history dictates the future, and the past says that Mase is 100 percent reliable and Clayton just....isn't. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny Clayton's history. Sure, he's made some great plays, and he's made some horrible plays. Which is the entire point..he's inconsistent as Hell, and fans want to have reliable receivers to count on. Why is that so wrong to you?

[noy]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='05 October 2009 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1254716556' post='249653']
gotta game plan for them....



one thing that you should know about your statement.... there are also NFL Caliber DB's covering... doing their job....
[/quote]

Really? Because they didn't do anything to affect Clayton's ability to catch the football on that play. You cant dispute it because he even says so himself, it was a drop, plain and simple. And no, the defense simply being around him is no excuse; an NFL receiver should expect to get hit, but that doesn't mean they should skip the most important step, completing and possessing the football, in the process of a reception. His head turned before he caught the ball. This is purely a mechanics problem (and how long has he been in the league?...)

This play was a contributing factor in our loss, to the extent of importance is irrelevant, we lost as a team. But to say that we shouldn't scrutinize a player for a most glaring error is idiotic and unproductive.

You want to pat him on the back for dropping the ball? Tell him to hold his head high and think about next time? Laughable. He needs someone to light a fire under his ******, and competition does that. So, go Kelly!

As for someone pointing out Clayton's game against Cinci last year... Like I said before, against bad defenses Clayton decides to show up, but he doesn't have, or hasn't shown, the skills needed to be a consistent threat against a good secondary. Not that it matters, but to me he's a solid #3 receiver playing the #2 spot. It would hurt if we lost him, sure, but that reinforces the idea that we still need a legitimate #1 if we expect to be a complete offense.

[BlindSide]

Everyone is blaming Clayton. Should he of got that wide open pass? Yes. It is not all his fault we lost. The D let up a lot of points, Carr fumbled, Flacco throw a pick right be for the half in the red zone. If Flacco did not throw a pick we could of got at least FG if not a TD. That way on 4th down we would not of had to go for it. We could of just kicked a FG and tied the game. Everyone is also ****ing a Carr. How many return men have we had that have been good beside Lewis and Sams. Maybe it is not the return man as much as the blockers or scheme we use. We did not run that ball that much. We tried to get into a shoot out with Tom Brady. McClain did not touch that ball that much today. Willis only had a few runs. Rice did not run that much. We throw the ball almost 50 times today. Maybe it was good we throw the ball 50 times so now team know we are not scared to pass the ball. Now they will not be able to put 8 or 9 in the box and open up the run. That is just my 2 cents.

[RavensClaw52]

I am more dissapointed in Foxworth and Carr than Clayton. Carrs fumble, whatever it happens, but his lack of coverage is unnacceptable. Also, leaving Foxworth 1 on 1 with Moss inside the 20? Reed is quick but come on, our d-line had been doing a pretty good job, leave the ballhawk back to help.

[flynismo]

[quote name='RavensClaw52' date='05 October 2009 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1254722408' post='249726']
I am more dissapointed in Foxworth and Carr than Clayton. Carrs fumble, whatever it happens, but his lack of coverage is unnacceptable. Also, leaving Foxworth 1 on 1 with Moss inside the 20? Reed is quick but come on, our d-line had been doing a pretty good job, leave the ballhawk back to help.
[/quote]

Man, I have had it with Carr already. When he's not fumbling the ball, he's getting mediocre returns. You'd think then he must be collecting a check every Monday because he's good in coverage, right? You'd be wrong.

Special teams needs to be addressed in a major way. You know what? I think maybe Clayton has one last chance to redeem himself. I'm willing to bet he would do quite well returning kicks. At the very least, he couldn't possibly suck as bad as Carr, right? Let's see what Clayton can do for our return game while Kelley Washington takes over the #2 spot, send Carr's arse back to Tennessee and let's see if the rook (Webb) can at least match the mediocre play we get from our nickel and dimebacks and gain some valuable experience in the process.

[RaK427]

Clayton is mediocre at best, and all he does week in and out is reinforce that statement. He drops balls, he doesn't get open, he doesn't have the breakaway speed we need in a receiver, or the reliability for that matter. When it comes down to it, you can't count on Clayton and that is the story of his career. So my question is, why is Williams, our other "future #1"/bust always riding the bench? He can't be that much worse than Clayton, and from what I saw in preseason he looked okay, I think what it comes down to is Clayton isn't generally making big plays, Williams has a pair of hands and legs too, throw him some balls and give him a shot at least at our #3 spot, behind Mason and Washington that is.

Edit: I agree,Cut Carr!! Maybe throw Clayton back there, Webb would even make me happy at this point.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Chris Carr is failing to impress at all. I wouldn't mind seeing Lardarius have a go at some kick returns.

[ravens1977]

[quote name='Shawn`' date='04 October 2009 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1254688421' post='248680']
We lost the game for a number of reasons, not just Carr or Clayton.

The Patriots drove the down field at will, almost no contest.
[/quote]
Tough to stop the "mighty O" of the Patriots when the damn refs constantly throw a flag when you try to sack their ken doll QB Brady???

[Mahatma_Sloth]

haha you all get so emotional and worked up.... im soooo glad that nothing that you want to happen concerning this team dose or we would be in shambles. we are 3-1 and clayton is just as much a part of the 3 as he is the 1.... the dam mob mentality is dumb

[rlh445]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='05 October 2009 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1254728181' post='249772']
haha you all get so emotional and worked up.... im soooo glad that nothing that you want to happen concerning this team dose or we would be in shambles. we are 3-1 and clayton is just as much a part of the 3 as he is the 1.... the dam mob mentality is dumb

[/quote]

Really? Wow, I say. Well let me show you how much of the '3 wins' Clayton is a part of. In Week 2 (he didn't have ONE catch in Week 1) he caught one reception for 20 yards. Whoopty doo. In Week 3 he caught 3 receptions for 35 yards. So in Week 2 he caught two extra passes that amounted for only 15 extra yards then the one catch he had in Week 1. Oh, he's a monster. In week 4 he had 5 catches for 45 yards. Wow, he had quadruple the catches he did in Week 2 and yet still only had 25 extra yards then what he had in Week 2? Yea, that mob mentality is all to blame. It couldn't be Clayton's performance, could it?

[Slim]

Clayton isn't that good, u guys are right, he proved last night (again) that he wasn't worth a first round, he has a good game every 3 months !

And i hope to see more of Lardarius Webb on special teams !!! Carr sucks !!!

where was L.J SMITH yesterday ?

[BloodRaven]

[b]*sigh*

flynismo, get the pitchforks... i'll get the torches.[/b]

[theFRANCHISE]

Even though Mark Clayton is one of the scapegoats for this game (and deservedly so), he just has a knack for bad timing; he starts making plays after he disappears, and then he either blows it or disappears once again. But note part of that statement: "starts making plays" -- that's the only reason why he's the #2 receiver still. Because as much as we hate to admit it, he's made more plays than he's blown.

The irony is, he's barely on the field half the time to have an opportunity to make [i]or[/i] blow a play.

Though I'm in favor of starting Kelley Washington at the #2 spot, there's still questions as to how much he can actually do when he's not in the slot, given his limited knowledge of the playbook.

Sure, as the season progresses, that might not be such a bad idea -- but when you've got a guy who's accustomed to playing slot, who is still learning the playbook, he becomes a potential liability as a primary target. We're getting on Clayton [i]now[/i] for dropping a pass (the latest of many ill-timed drops), but what happens if Washington runs the wrong route in a crucial situation? We've already seen a little miscommunication between himself and Flacco this season. I look at it as a catch-22 proposition until midseason (no pun intended.)

As for elevating Demetrius Williams to the #2 spot over Clayton, that's also a risky proposition, though not as risky as Washington getting the nod. Granted, I still believe Washington is the better receiver of the two, but Williams has more knowledge of the playbook. That means his routes will be safer, but his hands are still questionable -- do we risk another Clayton mishap with a less-experienced guy? Of course, there's also the injury factor to take into consideration, since Williams hasn't had a healthy season since his rookie year.

For now, Mark Clayton has to bounce back from this. He has no option, and neither do the Ravens just yet. Clayton knows two other guys are breathing down his neck for his starting spot, so the onus is on him. Film study will be more torturous for him than anyone else this week, and he is fighting not only for his job but a new contract in the offseason, whether it's with the Ravens or elsewhere.

[I AM LEGEND]

Well after looking at the giants and colts this year at least you know it's possible to draft rookie Wr's that can come in and contribute early..

[BloodRaven]

Thats a big if, look at DHB and Crabtree *shudders* Kenny Britt hasn't even experienced a win yet, he's not exactly a game changer.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' date='05 October 2009 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1254745227' post='249828']
Well after looking at the giants and colts this year at least you know it's possible to draft rookie Wr's that can come in and contribute early..
[/quote]
That's rare, though, and is more often the exception than the rule. The failure rate of a rookie WR is high, second only to rookie QBs, and that's just by nature of the position. There's too much information for a rookie to absorb, and playing WR means learning on-the-go more than any offensive position, save for QB.

That's not to say that it's impossible for a rookie to have success at the NFL, as the rate of rookie defenders making an impact increases every year, but defenders only have to worry about stopping the ballcarrier.

WRs have to worry about remembering their assignment, beating their man (using every trick they've learned up to that point, plus new ones acquired at the pro level), running the correct route or blocking the correct defender, catching the ball, then knowing what to do with it afterwards (ball security, finding a soft spot to cut into, finding the endzone.) It's a lot to process, and it's more often mental than physical.

[jfc13]

[quote name='Purple Punishment' date='04 October 2009 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1254691544' post='248934']
This was a great game for us. We learned alot about our guys on both sides of the ball. The play calling was sketchy at times. Carr fumbling on the kickoff wasn't good. Clayton dropping a tipped pass in the end zone trying to make a 1 handed grab for it, didn't turn out too well for us. We had a bad game overall. Im happy that us having a bad game against the Patriots resulted in a loss by 6 points and we almost won the freaking game for crying out loud. Our boys didn't play their best today. Oh one other bad thing, we sent an all out blitz at Brady in the red zone.

We will get it together and our secondary is showing a little more strength. I will beg for God to let Webb be our return man for the rest of this season though!
[/quote]
Good post. Dropped passes, too many 15 yard penalties [deserved or not], under/over thrown passes, defense allowing 1st downs; an interception and a fumble - not a stellar game for the Ravens - and they were still within 6 points of a good team. I'm disappointed, but I'm not disheartened. It's a hit of reality and I think the team can learn from it and bounce back even stronger. I think it will actually give them greater momentum for next week's divisional game vs Cincinnati.

[quote name='flynismo' date='05 October 2009 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1254717627' post='249668']
I feel bad for him too. He's a good guy, and a good teammate. But I feel a lot worse for our team, and I want us to do what is best for the team, whether or not it is best for Mark.
[/quote]
While I can't support many of your posts in this thread, this one, I agree with.



At the beginning of the season, many people on this board picked the Patriots as one of the teams the Ravens might lose to while still having a good chance to make the playoffs. That hasn't changed, in my mind. I saw some stuff in this losing effort that I took as positives - most notably how they kept fighting despite a lot of negative things going against them. I'm still looking forward to the rest of the Ravens season - and still optimistic about the future. [as I'm sure most Ravens fans are, too.]

[charlie cash]

Clayton is a quality nfl reciever...Not a bust at all....He just had a bad game sunday....

Clayton has accompished alot since he has been here including afc north title with him as a starting reciever and last year we made it all the way to the afc title game...

Clayton is a good receiver he will have better days ahead of him....

[flynismo]

[quote name='charlie cash' date='05 October 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1254749664' post='249868']
Clayton is a quality nfl reciever...Not a bust at all....He just had a bad game sunday....

Clayton has accompished alot since he has been here including afc north title with him as a starting reciever and last year we made it all the way to the afc title game...

Clayton is a good receiver he will have better days ahead of him....
[/quote]

lol

[Raven43hike]

We should of won this game inspite of the refs bad calls to many droppedballs (Mark Clayton)

[Raven43hike]

Exactly the ball hit him right on the numbers[quote name='Sizzle' date='04 October 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1254688657' post='248711']
Forget the endzone drops....... the dropped ball on 4th and 3 was perfect reason why he is a below average number 2 receiver.
[/quote]