Merged: Mark Clayton Threads

[WinnipegRaven]

Obviously there are 2 kinds of posters in this thread - the "arm chair coach" and the "homer". It is silly to say one is a better or bigger fan of our beloved team than the other. I consider myself an "arm chair coach". I find myself screaming at the TV when I see something I feel we are doing wrong, and jump around pumping my fist when we do something right. I'm not sure if anyone has definitively said we should cut Clayton loose in this thread (probably has) but I would be 100% against it if it were up to me. 1 bad drop doesn't cancel out all the good the guy has done for the organization, but it does put the spot light on him. All his past inconsistencies were magnified with that one drive/game ending drop and if it weren't talked about on this forum then I would think that there were a serious problem with us as fans.
Now that we have talked about it and voiced our various opinions, lets put this puppy to rest. Clayton knows we will all have a monocle on him this week and let's hope that translates into good game play and a renewed sense urgency to make those plays, especially when they count.

P.S - we REALLY should have taken that last time out prior to running the 4th down play. The crowd was too noisy and our players could have used the moment to re-compose themselves.

P.P.S - Hopefully Clayton can keep up his awesomness vs Cincy this weekend. Had to give the guy credit for the game last year. Single best game any of our WR's have had for a long time imho (playoffs excluded)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtqf5OGO4o

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='bce086' date='07 October 2009 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1254935608' post='251298']
You've suceeded in failing to regard the last 5 words of that statement. "At that point in time".
[/quote]

I didn't take into account the last five words of your statement but it doesn't make sense. Clayton's catch could've extended the drive but it wouldn't have won anything even [i]at that point in time[/i].

[WinnipegRaven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='07 October 2009 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1254936226' post='251302']
Clayton's catch could've extended the drive but it wouldn't have won anything.
[/quote]
You said what it would have WON us, 4 more chances at getting into the endzone.

[Alexir]

[quote name='bce086' date='07 October 2009 - 08:53 AM' timestamp='1254920017' post='251157']
[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sherlock.gif[/img]


Yea obviously K Wash has outperformed Clayton. Lets take a look.

Clayton - 14 rec for 177 yds - avg 12.6 - 1 TD
Washington - 16 rec for 198 - avg 12.4 - 1 TD

Now lets take into account that K Wash is lining up in the slot majority of the time and is being matched up more than often against a LB, or 3rd nickel back....

MAN KELLEY IS KILLING IT! Lets cut Clayton...

[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sherlock.gif[/img]

And there rests my attempt at sarcasm...
[/quote]


This isnt a good post because you didnt put in the account of Targets.

Clayton: 29 Targets, 14 Receptions. 15 Dropped passes.
Washington: 20 Targets, 16 Receptions. 4 Dropped passes.

But What I want to get across is its not all about freaking stats. Stats are good for fantasy value and pro bowl votes. Clayton does a lot of things on the field that go unnoticed. Such as Run Blocking.

As someone else mentioned. Kelley only lines up in the Slot getting covered by LBs. Also stats dont show situations where Joe over throws a Reciever, or when a reciever is double covered in the endzone and one of the defensive backs pulls his arm when he is about to make a catch.

Stats < Game Play

We all know Clayton should have made that catch, but seriously get off him. He will redeem himself.

[bce086]

[quote name='Alexir' date='07 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1254936763' post='251307']

As someone else mentioned. Kelley only lines up in the Slot getting covered by LBs. Also stats dont show situations where Joe over throws a Reciever, or when a reciever is double covered in the endzone and one of the defensive backs pulls his arm when he is about to make a catch.

[/quote]

That is what I said right after the stats... and 90% of the entire point I was trying to make...

And if you want to further disect this issue, than lets look at the passes that Clayton dropped. I'd be willing to bet majority are 20 yds+, where Flacco was forced to make a tough downfield throw.

[flynismo]

[quote name='PuRock' date='07 October 2009 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1254933493' post='251280']
Haha. Anyone see that one Scare Tactics on Scifi.....

"Try the Pie....Try the Pie..."
[/quote]


oh dear god....I can only imagine where you're going with this lol...
but no, didn't see that.

[WinnipegRaven]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 October 2009 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1254882780' post='251014']

I think we should let every single one of these guys walk after the season (other than Washington) and start over.
[/quote]
Getting a wee bit carried away there chummy, don't ya think?

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='07 October 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1254935320' post='251294']
He did [b]NOT[/b] cost the Ravens the game. Even if he'd reeled in the ball, there's no guarantee the Ravens would have won the game. The cumulative effects of Carr fumbling the opening kick-off, an interception caused by miscommunication, ticky-tacky penalties and an overall lack of execution cost the Ravens the game.
[/quote]

you're absolutely right. a lot of things cost us this game, not JUST clayton.
but this thread isnt about the team, its about him.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='flynismo' date='07 October 2009 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1254935417' post='251295']
my optimism for Clayton ran dry two years ago. has nothing to do with the Ravens or any other player on our team.

and for all your talk about "why keep posting (on a MESSAGE BOARD haha)", it seems like you have a problem dropping this issue yourself. how about you try leading by example? I'm willing to bet the sooner you people stop questioning our fanhood with your asinine cult-like propoganda, the sooner this thread will die out.
[/quote]
cult like propoganda? like the anti clayton lobby is so benevolent and absolved of such behaiors.were both just as cathartic in our argumets as one another. you've been trying to convince people that clayton is a bust since last year and thats what u do when you argue, persuade your point or else there is no point. maybe i am a lil childish about what i say or say it in the wrong ways but at least you get my points. dont clown on how i write posts on a message board.... i also ride my camel in the dessert

[flynismo]

[quote name='WinnipegRaven' date='07 October 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1254937085' post='251311']
Getting a wee bit carried away there chummy, don't ya think?
[/quote]


No, not at all.
I know it's drastic, but.......

Mace is either going to retire, or if not he'll be 37. Either way, it's not realistic to rely on him (keep him if he wants to stay!) after this year.
D-will already looks like he's heading out the door. Not like we'll notice his absence anyway.
Clayton, well....keep him if we use him as a #3 and KR, and if he doesn't ask for more than what he's making now. Otherwise, let him go get paid elsewhere.

I'm thinking that we should pursue a good, proven WR via free agency to take over for Mace.
then let Washington and the rookie WR we draft fight it out for the #2 spot.
The loser of that fight would battle with the other WR we pick up in FA for the #3 spot (assuming Clayton doesnt return).

I just have absolutely no reason to believe that this team can succeed with Clayton and Williams as our starting WR, which is why I'd like to see a complete overhaul.

[lowrider]

Clayton dropped the ball. But if he wouldn't have made the plays he made before on that final drive then we wouldn't have been in the spot we were in. He dropped it. He admitted it. But he still made plays. I blame that game on the coaching. No excuse if Rice is running 10 yards a carry that we only give him 11 carries. It's ridiculous.

[baltiMORE RAVENS]

[quote name='Alexir' date='07 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1254936763' post='251307']
This isnt a good post because you didnt put in the account of Targets.

[b]Clayton: 29 Targets, 14 Receptions. 15 Dropped passes.
Washington: 20 Targets, 16 Receptions. 4 Dropped passes.[/b]
But What I want to get across is its not all about freaking stats. Stats are good for fantasy value and pro bowl votes. Clayton does a lot of things on the field that go unnoticed. Such as Run Blocking.

As someone else mentioned. Kelley only lines up in the Slot getting covered by LBs. Also stats dont show situations where Joe over throws a Reciever, or when a reciever is double covered in the endzone and one of the defensive backs pulls his arm when he is about to make a catch.

Stats < Game Play

We all know Clayton should have made that catch, but seriously get off him. He will redeem himself.
[/quote]

Clayton has not dropped 15 passes.

[Bosanac]

[quote name='Alexir' date='07 October 2009 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1254936763' post='251307']
This isnt a good post because you didnt put in the account of Targets.

Clayton: 29 Targets, 14 Receptions. 15 Dropped passes.
Washington: 20 Targets, 16 Receptions. 4 Dropped passes.

But What I want to get across is its not all about freaking stats. Stats are good for fantasy value and pro bowl votes. Clayton does a lot of things on the field that go unnoticed. Such as Run Blocking.

As someone else mentioned. Kelley only lines up in the Slot getting covered by LBs. Also stats dont show situations where Joe over throws a Reciever, or when a reciever is double covered in the endzone and one of the defensive backs pulls his arm when he is about to make a catch.

Stats < Game Play

We all know Clayton should have made that catch, but seriously get off him. He will redeem himself.
[/quote]

15 dropped passes are you insane? he was Targeted 29 times and caught it 14, that DOES NOT mean they were dropped, what about the ones overthrown or underthrown, clayton has maybe dropped 2, 3 tops.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Bosanac' date='07 October 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1254944277' post='251373']
15 dropped passes are you insane? he was Targeted 29 times and caught it 14, that DOES NOT mean they were dropped, what about the ones overthrown or underthrown, clayton has maybe dropped 2, 3 tops.
[/quote]

That is my point.....[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/34853_shakehead.GIF[/img]

I was saying STATS DONT MEAN CRAP!

I give up on some of you people...

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Alexir' date='07 October 2009 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1254973027' post='251611']
That is my point.....[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/34853_shakehead.GIF[/img]

I was saying STATS DONT MEAN CRAP!

I give up on some of you people...
[/quote]

You're right, stats don't mean anything....people are just telling you that you're not using the correct terminology. They are not drops!

[MagicianCamille]

[quote name='Alexir' date='07 October 2009 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1254973027' post='251611']
I give up on some of you people...
[/quote]

Why? For correcting you when you said Clayton "dropped 15 passes of 29"?

God forbid admitting your mistakes instead of acting like you're intellectually above other people when you were the one who made a mistake.

[BloodRaven]

Lets be honest, for a first rounder he's been completely underwhelming and not the game breaker we all envisioned.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

I hope we look to Clayton against Cincinnati, would be nice to see him make some plays and get his confidence back. All within the game plan, of course!

[BloodRaven]

He tries to beat too many guys with his physical skillset, a 4.4 guy with moves is nice but this is the NFL not College, but 4.4 defenders are a dime a dozen. He's simply not going to burn many people or win jumpballs at 5'10".

He's faster than Mase and just as quick, lines up against #2 corners, but what he isn't doing is using his quickness and route running to consistently abuse the coverage on him, which is always tight. He doesn't seem to know how to work the soft spots in zones like Mase, hopefully it will come with a little time

[dzcwluvspurple&black]

It's easy to focus on that one play because it happened at the end of the game, but remember there were a lot of individual and team plays that lead to us being behind on the scoreboard. It would be just as easy to blame the opening kickoff that allowed NE to score right out of the gate on a turnover.

[Ed_Reed20]

I don't think this topic will ever die. If Clayton has a 10-catch, 200-yard, 3 TD game this Sunday, there will still be people talking about his drop against NE. If Clayton get shuts down by Jonathan Joseph, his detractors will have even more ammo. It's sad. I really don't know why people hate him so much.

He'll probably never be a #1 in the league but at least he's carved out a niche for himself with this team. Look at players like Mike Williams, Charles Rogers or even Braylon Edwards who was taken ahead of Clayton in the 2005 Draft. After his 2007 season, I though Braylon was far and way the better player but who would you want now? At least Clayton makes plays. Edwards had completely fallen off the map since '07.

[Bigbell]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' date='08 October 2009 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1254979589' post='251618']
Why? For correcting you when you said Clayton "dropped 15 passes of 29"?

God forbid admitting your mistakes instead of acting like you're intellectually above other people when you were the one who made a mistake.
[/quote]
+1

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='08 October 2009 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1255021212' post='251784']
I don't think this topic will ever die. If Clayton has a 10-catch, 200-yard, 3 TD game this Sunday, there will still be people talking about his drop against NE. If Clayton get shuts down by Jonathan Joseph, his detractors will have even more ammo. It's sad. I really don't know why people hate him so much.

He'll probably never be a #1 in the league but at least he's carved out a niche for himself with this team. Look at players like Mike Williams, Charles Rogers or even Braylon Edwards who was taken ahead of Clayton in the 2005 Draft. After his 2007 season, I though Braylon was far and way the better player but who would you want now? At least Clayton makes plays. Edwards had completely fallen off the map since '07.
[/quote]


wow, I really hope you're kidding. If you get shut down by Leon Hall or Jonathan Joseph, you DESERVE to be ridiculed.

And puh-leez, I would take Braylon over Clayton any day of the week, twice on Sunday and all day on Kwanzaa.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

[quote name='flynismo' date='09 October 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1255050528' post='252034']
wow, I really hope you're kidding. [b]If you get shut down by Leon Hall or Jonathan Joseph, you DESERVE to be ridiculed.[/b]

And puh-leez, I would take Braylon over Clayton any day of the week, twice on Sunday and all day on Kwanzaa.
[/quote]
Starting cornerbacks in the NFL, even on a less than decent defense (which isn't Cincinnati so far, by the way) are pretty good. I mean, don't make it sound like [i]anyone[/i] could go out there and school them.

I'm not saying I don't want Mark to play better, I'm just saying don't rubbish an opponent - taking certain things for granted are where problems begin.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='08 October 2009 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1255020188' post='251773']
He tries to beat too many guys with his physical skillset, a 4.4 guy with moves is nice but this is the NFL not College, but 4.4 defenders are a dime a dozen. He's simply not going to burn many people or win jumpballs at 5'10".

He's faster than Mase and just as quick, lines up against #2 corners, but what he isn't doing is using his quickness and route running to consistently abuse the coverage on him, which is always tight. He doesn't seem to know how to work the soft spots in zones like Mase, hopefully it will come with a little time
[/quote]

That is a great view point of Clayton. It good to actually see someone give a good view of why Clayton does what he does, good or bad, instead of just saying he is a bum, fire him or Clayton is great just give him time.

Mase is one of the best route runners in the NFL and as easy as it seems, route running is really what separates the great WRs from the others.

Clayton has actually improved his route running, but still has a long way to go. Some of the things that Clayton is asked to do, is tougher for a 5'11" guys as opposed to a 6'3" guy. Like the fade routes for example, Washington or Williams might have been better, however the Ravens coaches trusted Clayton in that position. Will they continue to have faith in him? We'll see.

I understand why people like Fly, has the opinions about Clayton that they do. When a guy is a 1st round pick, you expect him to be great, or at least have a bigger impact to your teams success.

As a 1st rounder, Clayton hasn't lived up to the potential he had coming out of Oklahoma. Had he been a 4th rounder, people wouldn't be as passionate about it.

I feel that the labeling has to be removed for a lot of these players. Guys have different talents and it shows on the field every game. However, people just always put first rounders in a box and measure them by the stats and performance of other 1st rounders. Look at Mase, had he been a 1st rounder, at the same point in his career, he would've been considered a bust. Now look at him 10+ years later, he's one of the better WRs in the league albeit overlooked. So if Clayton could follow the same path as Mason, would anyone care where he was drafted or how long it took him to get there?

Also I think as fans we need to get away from this supporter/hater thing. I'm sure we all would love to see Clayton perform well, no matter if you are labeled a Supporter or Hater. However when you can't come up with that 4th down catch when your team needs it most, or you seems to disappear in some games, it's hard for some people to see the positives in what you do.

I don't think anyone was saying Clayton needed to be cut, after the TD catch to ahead in the KC game. However Clayton needs to do that consistently and in bigger games. When he doesn't it allows people to focus on the negative things you do. If Clayton either comes up with the fade pass for a TD or the 4th down catch, that would have gone a long way to changing some peoples views of him. However he didn't so you can't expect people that didn't have faith in him before to suddenly think he could be a clutch player.

Some times the perception that people have is out of wack. If Mase drops that same pass, same situation; people are more incline to just see it as something that rarely happens and gets over it. Why? Because Mase has been consistently dependable and Clayton hasn't.
Clayton will have every opportunity to prove his worth over the next 20 weeks or so. I don't think Clayton has lost confidence nor has the team lost it in him. As we are seeing now with Carr and last year with CMac or Willis, Harbs doesn't have a problem with taking playtime away from a guy that is not performing well. I fully expect to see Clayton line up at the #2 WR spot Sunday.

Clayton has had some good games vs Cincy and I can see that continuing Sunday, however don't expect that one performance to change peoples perspective about him. He will need to do it all season long. With the AFC North lead on the line a big performance from Clayton would be great.

I will be interested in seeing how Clayton responds and bounces back(I know Fly, he has nothing to bounce back to lol) in the next few games. Both Cincy and Minn are big games for the Ravens and if he can step up and makes plays it would be great for this team. If he just drops his head and shies away from making plays, then he's not the type of guy you want on your team anyway.

So imo Clayton has a great opportunity right now. Can he play like a Raven and prove to be a reliable weapon or he can just continue to be above average and show no promise for the future? We'll see.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='09 October 2009 - 07:39 AM' timestamp='1255088352' post='252131']
Starting cornerbacks in the NFL, even on a less than decent defense (which isn't Cincinnati so far, by the way) are pretty good.
[/quote]

Really? I can't tell, looking at all these threads about how bad our secondary is.
Anyway, "good" is a relative term...there's a reason why guys like Moss and Fitz are respected and feared around the league, and guys like Clayton aren't. When we faced the New England Bradies, we were worried about how we were going to stop Moss and Welker; I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they didn't lose any sleep over how to shut down Clayton.
And this is another problem that I have with him; like I've already said many times before, its not like he's even lined up against the team's #1 CBs, he's struggled his entire career while facing #2 CBs.
He plays mediocre even against mediocre players, which is just unacceptable.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='08 October 2009 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1255050528' post='252034']
wow, I really hope you're kidding. If you get shut down by Leon Hall or Jonathan Joseph, you DESERVE to be ridiculed.

And puh-leez, I would take Braylon over Clayton any day of the week, twice on Sunday and all day on Kwanzaa.
[/quote]

Not really. Clayton embarrassed Hall last year but Hall is a very good corner. He held Greg Jennings, who most people consider to be one of the best young receivers in the league, to 0 zero catches in week 2 and then did the same thing to Braylon last week. Joseph isn't bad either.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='09 October 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1255105777' post='252217']
Not really. Clayton embarrassed Hall last year but Hall is a very good corner. He held Greg Jennings, who most people consider to be one of the best young receivers in the league, to 0 zero catches in week 2 and then did the same thing to Braylon last week. Joseph isn't bad either.
[/quote]

I guess we'll just have to disagree about Joseph; it's tough to sell me on that guy.
Although I still say Hall isn't much better, I do see where you'e coming from....if he held Jennings to two catches, and Jennings is similiar in style and stature to Clayton (and is better), then it shouldn't be a surprise if he contains Clayton too.
(I purposely ignored the Braylon stat because not to take anything away from Hall, but at that point in time it really wasn't that big of an accomplishment all things considered).

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='09 October 2009 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1255108922' post='252231']
I guess we'll just have to disagree about Joseph; it's tough to sell me on that guy.
Although I still say Hall isn't much better, I do see where you'e coming from....if he held Jennings to two catches, and Jennings is similiar in style and stature to Clayton (and is better), then it shouldn't be a surprise if he contains Clayton too.
(I purposely ignored the Braylon stat because not to take anything away from Hall, but at that point in time it really wasn't that big of an accomplishment all things considered).
[/quote]

Jennings had zero catches; Hall [i]completely[/i] shut him down. But even if he has improved, Clayton abused him last year and I think he'll be looking to make up for his drop last week.

Braylon drops a lot of passes but holding a receiver with his talent to zero catches is still an an accomplishment. I'm not trumping Hall up but he is one of the main reasons the Bengals D has been so good this year.

[ONCDMV]

I know CLAYTON dropping that pass hurt our chances for a win(4th down)but 27 points given up makes this a team LOSS. Lets focus CLAYTON before that mistake happens in a game that affects our advancing in a playoff game. I put you on the weak link list for this very reason, but I also believe u could develop into a premier reciever(FOCUS IS KEY). I used to play ball ,so im saying this from a teammate standpoint, not as a fan.