Merged: Mark Clayton Threads

[BloodRaven]

Personally, I'm unhappy with his development so far considering how high he was drafted...

BUT... he's only a small dent in our cap space and isn't as bad as some.

[ravensfan160]

This is at Claytons expense and I do feel bad for the guy. I'm sure nobody feels worse about the drop then him but this made me chuckle.

Its from a QB Power Ranking on Yahoo where Joe is ranked #9

"He would be higher, but that last throw against the Patriots hit Mark Clayton(notes) in the upper left portion of the sternum. Everyone knows that Mark Clayton needs the ball to hit him in the lower right portion of the sternum. Come on, Flacco, get it together."

[PuRock]

[quote name='hammer' date='07 October 2009 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1254889483' post='251053']
Glad to see everyone with cooler heads. Obviously K. Washington has outplayed Clayton and deserves to be starting, but I really expect Clayton to come back strong....just to make me look like a fool (it seems to happen whenever prople get thrown under the bus).
[/quote]

Oh I expect Clayton to come back strong. And have one of his 3 good/decent games a year then totally disappear again.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='mhead66' date='06 October 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1254877600' post='250955']
Even the best players have off-days. Clayton has obvious talent, he just had a bad game.
[/quote]
one could argue if he had a bad game... after all he did put us in position for that catch.... he had a bad moment in that game.. but I wouldn't say a bad game

[quote name='TSizzle00' date='06 October 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1254880364' post='250987']
Hes a bust from being a 1st round pick. He plays like he should have been drafted in the 4-5 round.
[/quote]
I'd say more like a 2nd-3rd rounder

[quote name='Rinbee' date='07 October 2009 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1254919226' post='251148']
Maybe that kind of mistake will be a wakeup call and Clayton will start to really focus and kick it up a notch or two. Meanwhile, move him down the depth chart a bit so he knows he is on notice and has to earn his spot. I'm a little concerned that Harbs seems to committed to people he made starters regardless of performance. (Remember Billick and Boller?) Clayton and Carr need to know their roster spots are not guaranteed.
[/quote]
uhm... not to insult you or anything, but thats stupid to move him down after he dropped a pass.... THAT HE GOT US IN POSITION TO CATCH... thats like punishing your kid for not looking both ways crossing the street... but saved your life (maybe not that dramatic.. but you catch my drift)... and they all know there spots aren't gauranteed... it was beat into them during training camp(s)

[flynismo]

[quote name='rlh445' date='07 October 2009 - 03:07 AM' timestamp='1254899239' post='251099']
Posted by me

....and? The best you could come up with is something about Randy Hymes and company? Lol, I give up. For people to say that we shouldn't run Clayton out of town for dropping a catch, fine. For people to say he wasn't the one that lost it for us (depsite Mark himself saying that he did) fine. For anyone to say that people are/were mad at Clayton shouldn't have been and to just lackadaisically throw aside his obvious inconsistency for the past 4 (going on five) years, B.S. Period.
[/quote]

you just now figured out it's pointless talking to these people lol? fun fact, some of them still make excuses for Boller too...I guess thats the trend- to make excuses for our first round busts. If you dont, then you're a whiny crybaby for not accepting costant failure. A few will even call ya a fake fan.
I dont understand the whole persecution complex the Clayton lovers carry either. Ah forget it.....may as well shut this thread down. Sad.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 October 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1254855464' post='250707']
The people who want run Clayton out of town or bench him are the worst Ravens fans in my opinion.
[/quote]

Blind homers who continue to make excuses and are incapable of critiquing their own team are the worst fans. imo.

Four years ago: Aww schucks, Clayton just had a bad week, he'll get better.

Today: Aww shucks, Clayton just had a bad week, he'll get better.

Re-freaking-diculous.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ravensfan160' date='06 October 2009 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1254854905' post='250702']
For all of you who want to run Clayton out of town you might want to rethink. I do believe that all 4 of the receivers on our roster right now are in the final year of their contracts. Thats right...all 4. Mason might retire, Williams appears to already have 1 foot out the door, Washington has been great and might cash in somewhere else after his 1 year deal expires. That only leaves Clayton.

So stop beating up on a guy who was trying to make a play to help his team and got a little ahead of himself. It wasn't just his mistake that cost us the game it just happened to be the last one. If the Chris Carr fumble or the Flacco interception or the personal fouls happened at the end of the game you all would be saying similar things about those players.

You never want to lose a game but I'm ok with losing this one. First, it gets the national media, and those high expectations, off our backs. Second, it keeps our players humble because this game coming up against Cincinnati is even more important. If we managed to win in New England I would be terrified of an upset by the Bengals. Now our guys will be focused and ready to take back control of the divison.

[/quote]


It's called free agency, and the draft. Let all thes guys walk other than Washington. There are some good players who will be potential free agents. get a couple of them. then draft a WR or two.

[theFRANCHISE]

[size="4"][b]MOD NOTE: Guys, this is a contentious topic, I understand. But please remember that we're all Ravens fans here. Keep it civil. Address the points made in each post, NOT each other.[/b][/size]

[Gtown Purple]

Cutting him would be a rash decision. Maybe put Washington at number 2 and see if he does better but based on the numbers they are about even.

[Runnin Raven]

[quote name='bce086' date='07 October 2009 - 08:53 AM' timestamp='1254920017' post='251157']



Yea obviously K Wash has outperformed Clayton. Lets take a look.

Clayton - 14 rec for 177 yds - avg 12.6 - 1 TD
Washington - 16 rec for 198 - avg 12.4 - 1 TD

Now lets take into account that K Wash is lining up in the slot majority of the time and is being matched up more than often against a LB, or 3rd nickel back....

MAN KELLEY IS KILLING IT! Lets cut Clayton...



And there rests my attempt at sarcasm...
[/quote]
Good post.

Clayton will have redemption on his mind for the rest of the season which I think will bode well for the offense.

[Rinbee]

[quote name='Reddawn36' date='07 October 2009 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1254924037' post='251197']
one could argue if he had a bad game... after all he did put us in position for that catch.... he had a bad moment in that game.. but I wouldn't say a bad game


I'd say more like a 2nd-3rd rounder


[b]uhm... not to insult you or anything, but thats stupid to move him down after he dropped a pass.... THAT HE GOT US IN POSITION TO CATCH... thats like punishing your kid for not looking both ways crossing the street... but saved your life (maybe not that dramatic.. but you catch my drift)... and they all know there spots aren't gauranteed... it was beat into them during training camp[/b](s)
[/quote]

Man, the posts are dripping with drama. One catch, yes. But Clayton choked in the clutch. I didn't suggest cutting him like others have, but it's not unreasonable to elevate someone else, like Washington, who has showed more promise than Clayton. It's not a punshiment, but you have to send a message.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='06 October 2009 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1254876843' post='250944']
Dude. C'mon man. You don't cut a player for that. He's an investment for your team and he hasn't shown that he's a bust from where I sit. If you want to let him know about it then you make him go back to the basics (Football, meet hands).
[/quote]
listen to this man. he of all ppl knows that the great recievers dont just catch balls, but all recievers drop them every once in a while. theres been bigger drops in bigger games. we are just 4 games into the season and you all are already to run this work/team focusd player out in the cold. lots of things went wrong in the game but it is just too easy to blame 1 person whom for some reason is on your short list.... oh yeah its because he was picked in the first round. thats so stupid that these haters have these lofty expectations when the guy fills his role on the team. he gose to work and dose his job. plenty of first rounders dont pan out only some of them still contribute effectivly. he knows his place and dose his job and you hate on him for it cuz he went in the first round. the guy dosent even make first round money. i dont see why you all get your panties in such a bunch he already has more stats than he did at this time last year. all i know is that the haters have been saying alot of things but the actions and words of the orginization all but contradict said comments. ive said it before and i will say it again..... try being a true fan. have some faith in your team; the players, the coaches, and the front office. try respecting their opinions and decisions. they got us to the afcc game last year with less what more proof do you need that the are doing the right thing

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='flynismo' date='07 October 2009 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1254924221' post='251199']
fun fact, some of them still make excuses for Boller too...
[/quote]

Who made excuses for Boller? He's one player who you couldn't make an excuse for. He's an overall poor quarterback, and the blame was all on him.

The difference is, Boller was a bust, he didn't play to a 1st round status, or 2nd...or 3rd, maybe even a 4th. I'd say "Even a 5th would be stretching it", but you get the picture. Clayton isn't a bust in that sense. He isn't at 1st Round Pick talent, but he isn't useless.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='06 October 2009 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1254855464' post='250707']
The people who want run Clayton out of town or bench him are the worst Ravens fans in my opinion.
[/quote]
why waste your time being a ravens fan if your just gonna hate on your team.... and if you hate on clayton you do hate on the whole team because you question the competence of anyone that makes a decision for the team as well as all other decisions made by said ppl

[Mahatma_Sloth]

great recievers dont just catch balls, but all recievers drop them every once in a while. theres been bigger drops in bigger games. we are just 4 games into the season and you all are already to run this work/team focusd player out in the cold. lots of things went wrong in the game but it is just too easy to blame 1 person whom for some reason is on your short list.... oh yeah its because he was picked in the first round. thats so stupid that these haters have these lofty expectations when the guy fills his role on the team. he gose to work and dose his job. plenty of first rounders dont pan out only some of them still contribute effectivly. he knows his place and dose his job and you hate on him for it cuz he went in the first round. the guy dosent even make first round money. i dont see why you all get your panties in such a bunch he already has more stats than he did at this time last year. all i know is that the haters have been saying alot of things but the actions and words of the orginization all but contradict said comments. ive said it before and i will say it again..... try being a true fan. have some faith in your team; the players, the coaches, and the front office. try respecting their opinions and decisions. they got us to the afcc game last year with less what more proof do you need that the are doing the right thing

[wbirkhead]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='07 October 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1254930719' post='251257']
why waste your time being a ravens fan if your just gonna hate on your team.... and if you hate on clayton you do hate on the whole team because you question the competence of anyone that makes a decision for the team as well as all other decisions made by said ppl
[/quote]

I agree with you and everyone else who says that Clayton shouldn't be cut/run out of town/demoted to the PS because of that drop. However, I have to strongly disagree with you, as well as a lot of other people on this board that seem to think that disagreeing with ANYTHING related to the team means you're not a "true fan". As a die-hard Ravens fan who has been at the stadium cheering at every Ravens home game since '98, I do not believe that it is my duty to just blindly agree with everything they do. I love the Ravens and mostly agree with all their decisions and love most of the players, but I think it's well within the spectrum of fanhood to state something that you think could make the team better. If that happens to be moving K Wash into the 2nd WR spot and demoting Clayton, then so be it. I ABSOLUTELY disagree with that statement, but as a fan they should be able to make it without being called out for not being a "true fan".

Sorry for the rant, that's just one of my pet peeves.

[Tighthead420]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='07 October 2009 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1254929395' post='251248']
listen to this man. he of all ppl knows that the great recievers dont just catch balls, but all recievers drop them every once in a while. theres been bigger drops in bigger games. we are just 4 games into the season and you all are already to run this work/team focusd player out in the cold. lots of things went wrong in the game but it is just too easy to blame 1 person whom for some reason is on your short list.... oh yeah its because he was picked in the first round. thats so stupid that these haters have these lofty expectations when the guy fills his role on the team. he gose to work and dose his job. plenty of first rounders dont pan out only some of them still contribute effectivly. he knows his place and dose his job and you hate on him for it cuz he went in the first round. the guy dosent even make first round money. i dont see why you all get your panties in such a bunch he already has more stats than he did at this time last year. all i know is that the haters have been saying alot of things but the actions and words of the orginization all but contradict said comments. ive said it before and i will say it again..... try being a true fan. have some faith in your team; the players, the coaches, and the front office. try respecting their opinions and decisions. they got us to the afcc game last year with less what more proof do you need that the are doing the right thing
[/quote]

So we are not allowed to criticize? Got it, I will delete my message board account now.

We are allowed to judge players, and even be wrong about it. It doesn't mean we do not trust nor respect the staff. This is a lame argument....blind faith does not make you a true fan.

[Ed_Reed20]

I don't think putting Washington in in the #2 spot is very wise. He's worked out the slot which is completely different than playing on the outside.

[flynismo]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='07 October 2009 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1254929955' post='251251']
Who made excuses for Boller? He's one player who you couldn't make an excuse for. He's an overall poor quarterback, and the blame was all on him.

The difference is, Boller was a bust, he didn't play to a 1st round status, or 2nd...or 3rd, maybe even a 4th. I'd say "Even a 5th would be stretching it", but you get the picture. Clayton isn't a bust in that sense. He isn't at 1st Round Pick talent, but he isn't useless.
[/quote]

look thrugh the archives, you'll see (regarding Boller).

Clayton absolutely is a bust. I find it hard to believe that the past four years is what Oz envisioned while burning one of his prized first round picks on Clayton.

But I also do not believe Clayton is worthless either, which is why I'm so adamant about making him our #3 and having him return kicks for us.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' date='06 October 2009 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1254873853' post='250914']
for the hundredth time, it's not about ONE drop. It's about 4 and a quarter years of failure.
this was just the last straw.
[/quote]

LOL! Are you serious? He came on strong towards the end of his rookie year after battling injuries. He was the most productive receiver on the team in '06 and had to deal with poor QB play and a rookie who didn't go through his progreesions in '07 and '08 respectively. How has he failed?

[quote name='flynismo' date='07 October 2009 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1254924622' post='251201']
Blind homers who continue to make excuses and are incapable of critiquing their own team are the worst fans. imo.

Four years ago: Aww schucks, Clayton just had a bad week, he'll get better.

Today: Aww shucks, Clayton just had a bad week, he'll get better.

Re-freaking-diculous.
[/quote]

I'm not a homer. I'm simply not going to continually criticize a player when there aren't better options to replace him. It's easy to **** and moan about Clayton but do you have a solution? I don't think so. Williams has done nothing to deserve a promotion on the depth chart and Washington has done his damage out of the SLOT. And I've never said Clayton will get better. His route running may improve with experience but in my opinion, the player he is now is the player he'll probably be the rest of his career.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='07 October 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1254930719' post='251257']
why waste your time being a ravens fan if your just gonna hate on your team.... and if you hate on clayton you do hate on the whole team because you question the competence of anyone that makes a decision for the team as well as all other decisions made by said ppl
[/quote]


sounds like you want us to join a cult, rather than be a football fan. Sorry my friend, but being able to think for yourself (whether you're right or wrong) does not make me an less of a fan than the lemmings.
<note to steelerkillers-- what did I tell you about the sheep??>

[PuRock]

[quote name='flynismo' date='07 October 2009 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1254933015' post='251278']
sounds like you want us to join a cult, rather than be a football fan. Sorry my friend, but being able to think for yourself (whether you're right or wrong) does not make me an less of a fan than the lemmings.
<note to steelerkillers-- what did I tell you about the sheep??>
[/quote]

Haha. Anyone see that one Scare Tactics on Scifi.....

"Try the Pie....Try the Pie..."

[Rinbee]

[quote name='Tighthead420' date='07 October 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1254932014' post='251270']
So we are not allowed to criticize? Got it, I will delete my message board account now.

We are allowed to judge players, and even be wrong about it. It doesn't mean we do not trust nor respect the staff. This is a lame argument....blind faith does not make you a true fan.
[/quote]


Amen to that! I read so many posts that make our coaches and FO sound like omnipotent beings never to be critizized. Everyone on here is entitled to an opinion without judgement. I will curse the players when I think they made a stupid mistake and applaud the same player for a great play. That's my right as a fan and a spectator and no one has the right to tell me what a true fan is.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='rlh445' date='07 October 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1254898330' post='251096']
Your strategy of using a strawman needs some work. Since when did this conversation become about me going to the strip club or being a teammate of Clayton's? [b] I'M NOT. A. PLAYER. ON. THE. RAVENS. Which means I don't have to be all touchy feely [/b]about his ending performance in the game. Which is what I have already addressed. Also, I believe Clayton will do GREAT against the Bengals, because their secondary is well below average and as has been stated, he is at his best when facing subpar opponents..which is his problem. Wrong much?
[/quote]
i guess thats one way of being a fan, or a snake in the grass. its okay to nitpick i guess but i kinda reminds me of like seinfeld where he would go out with a chick who is great but he always finds that one little thing that he cant get over(like manhands) and it spoils the relationship

there is something to be said of being critical but there is just as much to be said of being a homer. just try it... try just putting your faith in your team, try selling out, buy in, its a whole lot less stressful. be the 12th man. just leave the evaluation and decisions to the pros... i mean in all reality you can post till your face turns blue but the team will probably still not do what u want(you wanted them to go WR in this last draft right?)

also you were the one talkin about chix on polz go back and read your post and last year at philly Clayton had 2 catches for 76 yards and a td. if im not mistaken they were a pretty good d. he is capable of performing, the problem is elsewhere

[bce086]

I think this is my first post in this rediculous arguement, although it has climbed to 19 pages, so to be honest I can't even remember....

Clayton was a 1st round pick, yes. We are paying him 4th round money.

Clayton dropped the ball, yes he costed us the game. Because in the 4th quarter, on the last drive, HE was the only one who could have won it for us at that point in time.

Playing on the outside is different than playing in the slot. You can't make the argument that K Wash is going to do better going against opponents #1 or #2 CBs when he is matched up against LBers and #3-#4 nicklebacks.

If the coaches believe someone on our team can outperform Clayton, do you really think they wouldn't give it a shot?!?! I trust our coaches that they are putting the best weapons we currently have out on the field every Sunday.

If Clayton would have made that last catch, the topic would have been titled "Clayton saves the game". It's funny how quick we forget the plays he made in this same exact game leading up to the last minutes.

Ok I'm done rambling, and will be trying to avoid this topic until it's over.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='bce086' date='07 October 2009 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1254933719' post='251283']

Clayton was a 1st round pick, yes. We are paying him 4th round money.

If the coaches believe someone on our team can outperform Clayton, do you really think they wouldn't give it a shot?!?! I trust our coaches that they are putting the best weapons we currently have out on the field every Sunday.
[/quote]
these are the points ive been trying to make
sowhat if he was drafted in the first round, hes not getting paid for it. what dose the team have to lose... they gain a solid #2 and all around football player. at least hes not a bust.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='bce086' date='07 October 2009 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1254933719' post='251283']
Clayton dropped the ball, yes he costed us the game. Because in the 4th quarter, on the last drive, HE was the only one who could have won it for us at that point in time.
[/quote]

He did [b]NOT[/b] cost the Ravens the game. Even if he'd reeled in the ball, there's no guarantee the Ravens would have won the game. The cumulative effects of Carr fumbling the opening kick-off, an interception caused by miscommunication, ticky-tacky penalties and an overall lack of execution cost the Ravens the game.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='07 October 2009 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1254933690' post='251282']
i guess thats one way of being a fan, or a snake in the grass. its okay to nitpick i guess but i kinda reminds me of like seinfeld where he would go out with a chick who is great but he always finds that one little thing that he cant get over(like manhands) and it spoils the relationship

there is something to be said of being critical but there is just as much to be said of being a homer. just try it... try just putting your faith in your team, try selling out, buy in, its a whole lot less stressful. be the 12th man. just leave the evaluation and decisions to the pros... i mean in all reality you can post till your face turns blue but the team will probably still not do what u want(you wanted them to go WR in this last draft right?)

also you were the one talkin about chix on polz go back and read your post and last year at philly Clayton had 2 catches for 76 yards and a td. if im not mistaken they were a pretty good d. he is capable of performing, the problem is elsewhere
[/quote]


my optimism for Clayton ran dry two years ago. has nothing to do with the Ravens or any other player on our team.

and for all your talk about "why keep posting (on a MESSAGE BOARD haha)", it seems like you have a problem dropping this issue yourself. how about you try leading by example? I'm willing to bet the sooner you people stop questioning our fanhood with your asinine cult-like propoganda, the sooner this thread will die out.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='Tighthead420' date='07 October 2009 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1254932014' post='251270']
So we are not allowed to criticize? Got it, I will delete my message board account now.

We are allowed to judge players, and even be wrong about it. It doesn't mean we do not trust nor respect the staff. This is a lame argument....blind faith does not make you a true fan.
[/quote]
no. but, it dose make me a believer

1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so: Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully.

ive been raised not to judge someone till you walked a mile in their shoes and as far as i can tell your not a NFL WR.

opinions are like a holes. yours and mine are just as wrong as each others so long as theres a differance

[bce086]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' date='07 October 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1254935320' post='251294']
He did [b]NOT[/b] cost the Ravens the game. Even if he'd reeled in the ball, there's no guarantee the Ravens would have won the game. The cumulative effects of Carr fumbling the opening kick-off, an interception caused by miscommunication, ticky-tacky penalties and an overall lack of execution cost the Ravens the game.
[/quote]

You've suceeded in failing to regard the last 5 words of that statement. "At that point in time".

You've also suceeded in making me post in this topic again.

Congratulations on both accounts.