Flacco Vs Roethlisberger

[thewarden86]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='30 September 2009 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1254350385' post='245021']
I'm sorry, warden, but the only fact is that Pittsburgh is a proven winner (usually). Pittsburgh makes Ben, not the other way around. If he were on another team, I highly doubt he'd have the praise he has now.
[/quote]


Then why didn't we win our 5th Super Bowl until he came along? We've ALWAYS had a great defense and running game. Neil O'Donnell Blew it, Kordell couldn't get it done, Tommy Maddox was good for a while but never got us deep into the post season.

Ben may have been even better had the Giants drafted him (thinking O-Line). His sacks only went up since we lost LG Faneca & C Hartings (and in that same time frame we lost LT Smith and RG Simmons).

Trust me fellas, I've been watching the Steelers a loooooooong time. Ben is our franchise QB and he could be anyones franchise QB.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1254350545' post='245022']
[b]The difference is that Brady is much better at handling the pressure then Ben. Most QBs will struggle with defenders in their face, but the better ones adapt to the pressure and puts pressure back on the defense.[/b]

It's like the Playoff games a few years back in '07 against Jax, I believe. The Jaguars D got great pressure on Ben in the wild card round. As a result to that pressure, Ben throws like 3 first half ints and had a fumble I believe. The Steelers defense kept them close but eventually you guys lost a close game.

The very next week the Pats, face the same Jag's defense. The Pats offense was as explosive and good as any. The Jags attempted to get pressure on Brady the same way they did Ben. However instead of Brady trying to hold the ball and force the ball down field to Moss, he chose to get the ball out of his hands quickly and put the pressure back on the defense.

I believe Brady started that game something like 22 for 25. By getting the ball out of his hands fast, he made the Jags stop bringing as much pressure and that's when things opened up down field.

So in back to back games against the same defense, one QB tried to be the star and attack the defense with big plays at all cost, even though there were none to be made. While the other, despite having the most prolific offense in NFL history, just took what the defense gave him and instead of being the big star was just smart and got his team to the next round.

Brady showed why he is among the Top 2 QBs mentioned and Ben showed why he is a good QB but will never be elite imo.

Do u remember these games? Maybe you have a different idea of how they played out.
[/quote]


[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img]

What??? That exactly the myth about Tom Brady. Ben escapes pressure and again, extends the play.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='30 September 2009 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1254351029' post='245026']
I know that you hate stats, so you probably won't like this, but just in case anyone is interested: the average sack occurs between 2.7 and 2.8 seconds after the ball is snapped.

(The following stats only apply to week 1-2)
The quarterbacks who held on to the ball the longest before being sacked are:

Sack time Number of sacks
Jason Campbell 3.66 3
Tom Brady 3.6 1
Jay Cutler 3.51 3
Mark Sanchez 3.51 2
Brady Quinn 3.29 9

The quarterbacks who have held on to the ball the shortest before being sacked:

Byron Leftwich 2.09 2
Tony Romo 2.1 1
Peyton Manning 2.29 2
Marc Bulger 2.46 4
Carson Palmer 2.47 5
Joe Flacco 2.52 2
Matt Stafford 2.53 3
Matt Schaub 2.6 2
Matt Ryan 2.62 2
Brodie Croyle 2.62 3

Ben R. is distinctly average in this area. He is usually sacked at about 2.9 seconds after the snap (19th of 33).

What can we conclude from these statistics? There are far too many Matts in the league.
[/quote]


Wait, Carson Palmer's average time before sack is 2.47 seconds; Brady, Cutler and Sanchez are between 3.5 and 3.6 seconds and Ben is at 2.9 seconds. But he holds on to the ball to long. Shouldn't it be like 9.2 seconds? [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

BTW - I DO hate stats, but thank you for these. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1254351468' post='245030']
[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img]

What??? That exactly the myth about Tom Brady. Ben escapes pressure and again, extends the play.
[/quote]

Yes Ben escapes pressure and extends plays, but most of that pressure is a direct result of Ben. Him extending plays is really a risk reward type of deal.

In recent history there has been a lot more reward for you guys. But you can't deny the amount of turnovers you guys have as a result of Ben trying to "extend the play".

A great example of this was in week 1 for you guys. Now we all know that was a 3 point win right. However early in that game, with your team lined up in FG range. Ben dropped back to pass, the pressure came and he tried to extend the play. Now instead of throwing the ball away(the smart thing to do), he lost about 11 yards by scrambling and trying "extend the play" as a result your offense was pushed out of FG range. Now your defense pretty much held up and gave u guys the opportunity to win late. But, In a game that eventually went to overtime, Ben pretty much cost your team points and could have been the reason for you guys losing.

Let's say the Titans didn't miss those 2 FG attempts. If you guys lose that opener and that play is potentially a direct cause of that lost. Then Ben throws the pick 6 against Cincy and you guys fall to 0-3, are you happy with your Franchise QB right now?

For a 100 million dollar franchise QB, Ben makes a lot of bone headed mistakes. I understand that you guys have a soft spot for the guy because he won 2 super bowls for you, hell some people in Baltimore will still tell you that Dilfer is our Franchise's best QB, so trust me I understand. However you have to admit that you guys lose just as many games as a result of poor play or bone headed plays by Ben as you win because of him.

And now that your defense is struggling a bit to come up with turnovers, sacks, and making plays on 3rd down, it should be on Ben to lead your team through this period without Troy P. Everybody is saying that the Steelers are struggling because you don't have Troy P and that might be the case, but your Franchise QB should be the one who puts that team on his back. I know if the Ravens rewarded Flacco with 100 million and we lost Ray lewis for 4 or 5 weeks, I would expect Flacco to put this team on his back during that time and win games. I would think Steelers fans would feel the same way.

However I don't think Ben is capable of that and as a result u guys will probably be 1-3 after Sunday night but we'll see.

[20ravens52]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='30 September 2009 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1254350385' post='245021']
I'm sorry, warden, but the only fact is that Pittsburgh is a proven winner (usually). Pittsburgh makes Ben, not the other way around. If he were on another team, I highly doubt he'd have the praise he has now.
[/quote]


Thank you. That's the honest truth.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']
Yes Ben escapes pressure and extends plays, but most of that pressure is a direct result of Ben. Him extending plays is really a risk reward type of deal.[b] [/b][/quote]

That is such a bogus statement. Our o-line has been a sieve (actually not so much this year, but the two years previous). You say "most" pressure. Can you back that up or are you just throwing that out there.

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']
In recent history there has been a lot more reward for you guys. But you can't deny the amount of turnovers you guys have as a result of Ben trying to "extend the play". [/quote] Really? Again, how many turnovers occured because Ben was escaping pressure or extending the play?

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']A great example of this was in week 1 for you guys. Now we all know that was a 3 point win right. However early in that game, with your team lined up in FG range. Ben dropped back to pass, the pressure came and he tried to extend the play. Now instead of throwing the ball away(the smart thing to do), he lost about 11 yards by scrambling and trying "extend the play" as a result your offense was pushed out of FG range. Now your defense pretty much held up and gave u guys the opportunity to win late. But, In a game that eventually went to overtime, Ben pretty much cost your team points and could have been the reason for you guys losing.[/quote]
Yep, he took an unneccessary sack there and I counted one in the Bears game. Those two plays are not the usual as you seem to think. We would have lost more than just four games if not for his ability to extend the play.

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']Let's say the Titans didn't miss those 2 FG attempts. If you guys lose that opener and that play is potentially a direct cause of that lost. Then Ben throws the pick 6 against Cincy and you guys fall to 0-3, are you happy with your Franchise QB right now?[/quote]

Okay, now let's say Jeff Reed doesn't miss either one of his two in Chicago and Limas Sweed holds onto that perfectly thrown pass in the end zone. We'd be 3-0. Yes, I am very happy. He is not the problem. Also, that pick six was not his fault it was Santo's fault. I'd also like to point out that that was a 2nd and 15 because of a bogus Offensive PI on Hines Ward on a BUBBLE SCREEN. Hines was 10 yards down field and Santo already had the ball.

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']
For a 100 million dollar franchise QB, Ben makes a lot of bone headed mistakes. I understand that you guys have a soft spot for the guy because he won 2 super bowls for you, hell some people in Baltimore will still tell you that Dilfer is our Franchise's best QB, so trust me I understand. [b]However you have to admit that you guys lose just as many games as a result of poor play or bone headed plays by Ben as you win because of him.[/b] [/quote]

No, no one who follows the team would "admit" that because it just ain't so....
[quote] Ben Roethlisberger has compiled an impressive 51-20 (.718) record as a starter in the regular season and an 8-2 (.800) mark in the postseason... became the fifth QB since the NFL merger (1970) to lead his team to the conference title game in three of his first five seasons (Roger Staubach, Bernie Kosar, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb)...his 51 wins in his first five seasons are the most by a QB in league history, surpassing such QBs as Otto Graham, Dan Marino, Tom Brady and John Elway...has engineered 17 career fourth-quarter (and overtime) come-from-behind victories in his first five seasons..
[url="http://news.steelers.com/team/player/49181/"]http://news.steelers...m/player/49181/[/url]


[/quote]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1254354258' post='245063']And now that your defense is struggling a bit to come up with turnovers, sacks, and making plays on 3rd down, it should be on Ben to lead your team through this period without Troy P. Everybody is saying that the Steelers are struggling because you don't have Troy P and that might be the case, but your Franchise QB should be the one who puts that team on his back. I know if the Ravens rewarded Flacco with 100 million and we lost Ray lewis for 4 or 5 weeks, I would expect Flacco to put this team on his back during that time and win games. I would think Steelers fans would feel the same way.

However I don't think Ben is capable of that and as a result u guys will probably be 1-3 after Sunday night but we'll see.
[/quote]


Ben HAD us in great position to win both of those games but as you said, our struggling defense let both teams march right back down the field and both Sweed and Holmes dropped TD passes.

[Steelerkillers]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1254351468' post='245030']
[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img]

What??? That exactly the myth about Tom Brady. Ben escapes pressure and again, extends the play.
[/quote]
I agree! Brady is a Mess in pressured circumstances. Ben proves it over, and over again with Breakin tackles/sacks and game winning drives

[flynismo]

Sorry boys and girls, but until proven otherwise, Big Beth was the best QB to come out of a very formidable draft class.

[AwakenTheDemon]

I'm sorry, but I'd take Rivers and Eli Manning over Roethlisberger anyday.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='30 September 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1254356582' post='245090']
I'm sorry, but I'd take Rivers and Eli Manning over Roethlisberger anyday.
[/quote]


Now THAT is an opinion and I can accept that. I like both Rivers and Eli. Rivers is probably the better pure passer of the three of them, but he too has a great defense and offensive weapons but hasn't gotten it done. Eli at least got it done once.

[scotchtape622]

Rivers has had much better stats than Ben. If the Chargers had the Steelers D they would be nearly unstoppable. You can't just say Ben is the best because each of the three have different surrounding casts and honestly, some have been luckier than others.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='scotchtape622' date='30 September 2009 - 08:28 PM' timestamp='1254356884' post='245092']
Rivers has had much better stats than Ben. If the Chargers had the Steelers D they would be nearly unstoppable. You can't just say Ben is the best because each of the three have different surrounding casts and honestly, some have been luckier than others.
[/quote]


Never said he was the best. I'm defending against those who say he is only average or costs our team. All three bring something different to the game.

BTW - Luck is part of it too. Lord knows we've been lucky here and there in the last couple years, but it hasn't always worked out that way in the past (and most recently).

Someone posted it here recently, but the quote goes, "I'd rather be lucky than good." [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img] You bet.

[Ravensfan23]

Warden you post those stats as if I said that Ben was a bad QB. No I just feel that he isn't as good as most Steelrs fans make him out to be. All of those numbers you posted about him from that article has just as much to do with the team around him as it does him. Not it's not his fault that he has a great team around him, but most of the Steelers fans I know throw those same numbers out their to justify Ben.

However what does his individual numbers look like in all those playoff games that he's won? Was it him winning those games or did you guys have a great defense and running game that won most of those games. Now does that mean that Ben shouldn't get some credit for those wins? No. However it should be made out like Ben has put that team on his back and has been the sole reason why you guys won so much.

He played terrible in that 1st AFC Championship game, he palyed terrible the next season in the playoffs and Super Bowl. The biggest play he made in that Super Bowl run was a tackle. So let's not act like Ben has been this great QB since coming into the league.

Ben is a good QB and he shows sings of being special at times. However he is very much inconsistent imo. As I said before I think Ben fell into a great situation and I give him credit for taking advantage of that situation.

I won't lie, if the game is on the line, I hate to see Ben with the ball n his hands, because he has that special it to make plays when it counts. I just think he puts you guys in really bad positions too often and a 100 million dollar guy shouldn't do that.

[scotchtape622]

Anyone who claims that Ben is a bad QB is a blind fan. Anyone who says he is a top 5 QB is a blind fan.

[J-man]

Roethlisberger has a motorcycle.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1254359476' post='245117']
Warden you post those stats as if I said that Ben was a bad QB. No I just feel that he isn't as good as most Steelrs fans make him out to be. All of those numbers you posted about him from that article has just as much to do with the team around him as it does him. Not it's not his fault that he has a great team around him, but most of the Steelers fans I know throw those same numbers out their to justify Ben.

However what does his individual numbers look like in all those playoff games that he's won? Was it him winning those games or did you guys have a great defense and running game that won most of those games. Now does that mean that Ben shouldn't get some credit for those wins? No. However it should be made out like Ben has put that team on his back and has been the sole reason why you guys won so much. [/quote]
Don't you think his individual numbers could be skewed by the team around him? i.e., Dropped or deflected passes, bad routes, hurried throws inside of 2.9 seconds due to pressure? It works both ways Homie.

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1254359476' post='245117']
He played terrible in that 1st AFC Championship game, he palyed terrible the next season in the playoffs and Super Bowl. The biggest play he made in that Super Bowl run was a tackle. So let's not act like Ben has been this great QB since coming into the league. [/quote]
He was a tired Rookie and played no worse than Flacco did in that exact same position. The next year he played awesome and that tackle you speak of was in the AFC Divisional round against INDY due to a fumble by Jerome Bettis....That was a very heady move on Bens part I might add. He had a terrible SUper Bowl, I agree but again, HE GOT US THERE. This last Super Bowl, he threw one pick and it was tipped at the line and he also drove the team down the field with 2 1/2 minutes left in the 4th qtr to win the game. There is no more pressure packed scenario than that and he was brilliant. BRILLIANT. Did you know that drive started with a holding call .... on the O-Line?


[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1254359476' post='245117']
Ben is a good QB and he shows sings of being special at times. However he is very much inconsistent imo. As I said before I think Ben fell into a great situation and I give him credit for taking advantage of that situation. [/quote]

And I'll say it again, we have always fielded a great defense and a good ground game, yet until Ben came along we couldn't get the to big show. We've won it twice since he's been here. How the heck can you refute that??

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1254359476' post='245117']
I won't lie, if the game is on the line, I hate to see Ben with the ball n his hands, because he has that special it to make plays when it counts. I just think he puts you guys in really bad positions too often and a 100 million dollar guy shouldn't do that.
[/quote]

I simply disagree. Give us the Giants O-Line and Cam Cameron and Ben will tear...it..up. He's is capable of winning; He's proven it over and over and will continue to do so. Not a doubt in my mind.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='J-man' date='30 September 2009 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1254360132' post='245125']
Roethlisberger has a motorcycle.
[/quote]


More importantly, he has a helmet.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1254360838' post='245129']
More importantly, he has a helmet.
[/quote]

Most important, he doesn't wear it.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='30 September 2009 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1254362257' post='245138']
Most important, he doesn't wear it.
[/quote]


Ben Roethlisberger: Proponent of the Motorcylce Helmet since Summer 2006. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]

[1/28/01]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='30 September 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1254338343' post='244881']
Because you're "sick of the comparisons" you make a thread entitled "Flacco vs Roethlisberger?"
[/quote]

Right, to discount the comparisons that everyone makes explaing the similarities of these two......I don't see the likeness between the two.

[flynismo]

[quote name='scotchtape622' date='30 September 2009 - 08:28 PM' timestamp='1254356884' post='245092']
Rivers has had much better stats than Ben. If the Chargers had the Steelers D they would be nearly unstoppable. You can't just say Ben is the best because each of the three have different surrounding casts and honestly, some have been luckier than others.
[/quote]

And if Ben had LT, Antonio Gates, Chris Chambers, Vincent Jackson and San Diego's OL, well, you get the picture.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1254351747' post='245034']
BTW - I DO hate stats, but thank you for these. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]
There's plenty more where that came from, but I'd have to be sufficiently motivated to break out the Ben praising stats.

Just remember that those stats are only from the first two weeks. Ben's going to get dozens more sacks so the numbers will no doubt, be vastly different.
[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1254355649' post='245081']
Okay, now let's say Jeff Reed doesn't miss either one of his two in Chicago and Limas Sweed holds onto that perfectly thrown pass in the end zone. We'd be 3-0.
[/quote]
To be fair, if we're going to excuse missed field goals, the Steelers would be 2-1.

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' date='30 September 2009 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1254356582' post='245090']
I'm sorry, but I'd take Rivers and Eli Manning over Roethlisberger anyday.
[/quote]
O.o Eli? I'm sure that you have your reasons, but personally the only thing I can think of that the other Manning has on Ben is [i]maybe[/i] looks (which isn't much of an accomplishment considering who we're talking about) and the fact that he isn't a Steeler. But the latter is just as good of a reason as any.
[quote name='scotchtape622' date='30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1254359542' post='245118']
Anyone who claims that Ben is a bad QB is a blind fan. Anyone who says he is a top 5 QB is a blind fan.
[/quote]
That's debatable, but I guess that's kind of what everyone's doing right now so whatever...

Edit: Aww look at Warden breaking out some stats of his own.

[steeliam]

The only way I can compare them is what they did head to head in the only 3 games they played against each other. In those 3 games Ben threw for more yards, Had better % completions, Had way less interceptions, Had way better QB rating, and won all 3 games. I agree Joe is better than anything you had in the past, but still has a way to go to compare to Big Ben.

[PuRock]

[quote name='steeliam' date='01 October 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1254407731' post='245341']
The only way I can compare them is what they did head to head in the only 3 games they played against each other. In those 3 games Ben threw for more yards, Had better % completions, Had way less interceptions, Had way better QB rating, and won all 3 games. I agree Joe is better than anything you had in the past, but still has a way to go to compare to Big Ben.
[/quote]

You compare teams head to head. Not players. Especially when one player was a rookie and the other a veteran in an early game. And two of the games where in Pittsburgh.

This isn't BCS teams we are talking about here.

[Dan The Man Ravens #1 Fan]

Here is my thoughts between the two. Flacco 3-0 Ben 1-2 Thats all that matters.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='steeliam' date='01 October 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1254407731' post='245341']
[b]The only way I can compare them is what they did head to head[/b] in the only 3 games they played against each other. In those 3 games Ben threw for more yards, Had better % completions, Had way less interceptions, Had way better QB rating, and won all 3 games. I agree Joe is better than anything you had in the past, but still has a way to go to compare to Big Ben.
[/quote]
That would probably work better if we were comparing an offensive player to a defensive player.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='01 October 2009 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1254370852' post='245247']

To be fair, if we're going to excuse missed field goals, the Steelers would be 2-1.


[/quote]


Bironus (sp?) missed his early enough in the game. That cannot be assumed. We missed ours in the 4th quarter. I should also remind you that I was not the one to bring up the "if's." I was merely refuting that stance. You're killing me. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='steeliam' date='01 October 2009 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1254407731' post='245341']
The only way I can compare them is what they did head to head in the only 3 games they played against each other. In those 3 games Ben threw for more yards, Had better % completions, Had way less interceptions, Had way better QB rating, and won all 3 games. I agree Joe is better than anything you had in the past, but still has a way to go to compare to Big Ben.
[/quote]

That's not the only way you can compare them - that's the only way you CHOOSE to compare them.