Flacco Vs Roethlisberger

[Ed_Reed20]

I can't predict how many Super Bowls Joe will win but I can guarantee he'll be a better QB than Roethlisberger statistically when both their careers are over.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='flynismo' date='27 September 2009 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1254096181' post='243028']
I'll stick to what I said last year....Flacco's like a Big Beth / Tom Brady hybrid.

[b]Without the rape allegations and pretentiousness.[/b]
[/quote]


You have to make a name for yourself before those come. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

[20ravens52]

The truth is Burger is a game manager that likes to scramble around in the pocket waiting for the defense to give. If there wasn't a great defense behind him he would just be average. Yeah of course he has some 4th quarter comebacks because his defense makes the stop or turnover and puts him in the position to get the comeback victory.

Joe Flacco has the ability to be one of the best and possibly a couple years down the road to carry a team offensively. I think we are already seeing the signs. Doesn't turn over the ball often. Accurate throws, short and deep. Poise, calm and knows the game very well for a second year Qb. Has good mobility and can break a tackle.

He has all the tools to help him develop. A solid YOUNG o-line. Veteran Reciever in Mason, a good TE in Heap, a good running game, and great defense.

He's set. All that needs to happen for him in the next couple of years is a solid WR to replace Mason when he retires.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='John Lee' date='30 September 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1254337755' post='244871']
2 SB's in 5 years, playoffs 4 of 5 years, playing behind a sieve of an O-line...


[/quote]


And Flacco has a better QB rating since he's been in the league.

The Ravens are 14-3 in their last 17 contests, only losing to the Super Bowl champions and top tier Giants... The Steelers are not. After Flacco got started, and got adjusted (he wasn't slated to start in last year's preseason), he has been better than Rothlisberger.

Cling to your pipe dreams as long as you can Steelers fan. The more you guys lose, the more we see of you on our boards.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='20ravens52' date='30 September 2009 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1254343160' post='244930']
The truth is Burger is a game manager that likes to scramble around in the pocket waiting for the defense to give. If there wasn't a great defense behind him he would just be average. [b]Yeah of course he has some 4th quarter comebacks because his defense makes the stop or turnover and puts him in the position to get the comeback victory.
[/b]
Joe Flacco has the ability to be one of the best and possibly a couple years down the road to carry a team offensively. I think we are already seeing the signs. Doesn't turn over the ball often. Accurate throws, short and deep. Poise, calm and knows the game very well for a second year Qb. Has good mobility and can break a tackle.

He has all the tools to help him develop. A solid YOUNG o-line. Veteran Reciever in Mason, a good TE in Heap, a good running game, and great defense.

He's set. All that needs to happen for him in the next couple of years is a solid WR to replace Mason when he retires.
[/quote]

Like the 80+ yarder in the Super Bowl? Or the 92 yarder in Baltimore last year?

"Game Manager my rear." [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1254341704' post='244918']
You have to make a name for yourself before those come. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]


Or you just could be a rapist... I don't know what the outcome is in that whole deal, but it's not a moment no matter what he did.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='30 September 2009 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1254343788' post='244933']
Or you just could be a rapist... I don't know what the outcome is in that whole deal, but it's not a [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] moment no matter what he did.
[/quote]


I think it's pretty clear that he did nothing wrong short of bedding a below averge looking psychopath.

[BuckWilds]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1254343957' post='244935']
I think it's pretty clear that he did nothing wrong short of bedding a below averge looking psychopath.
[/quote]

I'm not sold. He's not the most upstanding citizen, and he's proud of it. There has been a campaign to discredit the female, and while I'm not inclined to believe her, I'm not inclined to believe a guy who's in love with himself either.

[PuRock]

Here's my comparison.

Flacco - Pretty
Rothlisberger - Not so Pretty

Flacco - Gentle with the ladies
Rothlisberger - (do I really need to go there)

Flacco - Stand up sort of guy
Rothlisberger - Always on his ****** in football games.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='PuRock' date='30 September 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1254344513' post='244947']
Here's my comparison.

Flacco - Pretty
Rothlisberger - Not so Pretty[/quote]

Now, now. Despite recent ..... "generosity" with the less-than-desireable, Ben has been known to be a bit of a stud with the ladies. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]

[quote name='PuRock' date='30 September 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1254344513' post='244947']


Flacco - [color="#4b0082"]Gentle with the ladies
[/color]Rothlisberger - (do I really need to go there)[/quote]

[color="#4b0082"]With who? Mom?[/color] lol

Yea, I have heard he's rude in person. Who's to say.


[quote name='PuRock' date='30 September 2009 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1254344513' post='244947']
Flacco - Stand up sort of guy
Rothlisberger - Always on his ****** in football games.
[/quote]

Flacco - Great O-Line
Ben - Not so much.

Now is that the QB's fault?

[20ravens52]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1254343744' post='244932']
Like the 80+ yarder in the Super Bowl? Or the 92 yarder in Baltimore last year?

"Game Manager my rear." [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]
[/quote]


The fact stands he would be no more than average on another team with an average defense. His QB stats are not impressive, and he should be peaking. The only thing impressive is his 2 super bowl wins. We will see this in a couple of years being the Steelers have an older defensive core than the Ravens. Oh and wait till Hiney Ward retires.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='28 September 2009 - 05:16 AM' timestamp='1254129381' post='243351']
Flacco is a mix of game manager and strong-armed, precision passer roled into one
[/quote]

It's called being a well rounded smart QB.

That is what will make Joe a special QB in the NFL.

Another thing I'd like to point out. I noticed while reading this thread that there hasn't been many Steelers fans coming to defend their guy. I guess being 2 games back already doesn't give them much ammo. Lol

As for the comparison between the 2. Well I feel Flacco is the better overall QB. Like everyone else has said, they both have things they do well.
Ben is good because of his size. If Ben were 6'3 he probably wouldn't be as successful. People praise Ben for his ability to keep plays alive and rightfully so, but what many people don't point out is Bens lack of pocket awareness. He doesn't do a good job of finding his hot routes and struggles to read defensives at times. He's liable to take a sacks on 3rd down that'll push his team out of FG range, in his attempt to make a bigger play. That's something you would expect from a rookie or 2nd year player, but not a 100 million dollar guy.

You never really hear about QBs being a product of their system, but Ben is a product of his defense imo. If anyone can relate to that, it's the Ravens. Now I don't say this as a negative about Ben, cause lord knows I wished Boller could have been a product of our defense. My reason for saying that is Ben could have a terrible game, but because of a great defense, he'll get a chance to make one great drive count. Then everyone will talk about how many come backs he has, but fail to realize that he is the main reason his team is in that position. Imo Ben is one of those QBs that fell into the perfect situation and to his credit he is making the most of it.

Flacco on the other hands seems to be the type of QB that would succeed no matter the situation or team. Many people last year outside of Baltimore made the claim that Flacco's success was a result of a great defense, but what they are seeing now, is that this guy has what it takes to put a team on his back and carry them. Over the last 2 seasons we have seen Flacco answer many challenges. Every time we go into a game, I hear the opponent fan base say, we gotta pressure the young Flacco and force him into mistakes. However one of the things that has quickly become apparent is Flacco is a guy you don't wanna blitz. Their wasn't a QB in the NFL that had a higher passer rating against 3-4 blitzes then Flacco and that was as a rookie. Flacco gets the ball out of his hands quickly and makes good decisions with it.

Flacco is a guy that can truly make every throw on the field when it counts. You hear about a guy like Matt Ryan being able to make every throw, but Flacco makes throws that very few if any other QB can make. Also Flacco is becoming the type of QB that doesn't have to rely on one go to WR and that makes him dangerous. Right now the Ravens have 7 different players on pace to have 35+ receptions this season. Will that continue maybe not, but what it says about Flacco is that he will put the ball into any of his play makers hands at any time. Flacco is the type of QB that can dominate a game without throwing a TD pass, almost like he did last week. He makes great calls at the line of scrimmage to put the offense into great position. Just look at McGahee's 15 yard TD run. You very rarely scratch you head as a result of a play that Flacco made. While a guy like Ben will leave you scratching your head as a result of a foolish pass or play.

As a comparison between the 2, well their isn't any imo and Joe will really start to pull away from Ben in the coming years. However Ben has 2 Super bowl rings(even though one came as the worse QB in Super bowl history) and that says a lot right now.

It might be a little too early for this to be said but I believe it and if you believe it, then have the confidence to say it. I feel that Ben was lucky to get his rings when he did because Flacco will be to him like Jordan was to Barkley. Flacco and Ben will be going head to head for years to come and I feel that the Ravens will take those steps to be the Superior team in this division and Flacco will have as much to do with that as anyone.

[PuRock]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1254345209' post='244954']
Now, now. Despite recent ..... "generosity" with the less-than-desireable, Ben has been known to be a bit of a stud with the ladies.
[/quote]

Let's be honest, when Joe ditched the Unibrow - he left Rothlisberger in the dust.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='20ravens52' date='30 September 2009 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1254345223' post='244955']
The fact stands he would be no more than average on another team with an average defense. His QB stats are not impressive, and he should be peaking. The only thing impressive is his 2 super bowl wins. We will see this in a couple of years being the Steelers have an older defensive core than the Ravens. Oh and wait till Hiney Ward retires.
[/quote]

Ben is a top notch QB. Stats be damned.
His first Super Bowl win was anything BUT impressive. However, we would have never gotten that far if not for his play at QB (and one tackle in Indianapolis).

If the dude is running for his life after virutally every snap, I think it's reasonable to think that his "stats" are going to be affected. I'm glad he's our QB and not yours as it sounds like he might not get the appreciation he deserves.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='PuRock' date='30 September 2009 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1254346416' post='244969']
Let's be honest, when Joe ditched the Unibrow - he left Rothlisberger in the dust.
[/quote]


And surely you have photos to support this outlandish claim. [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]

[ravenking]

The Biggest difference between them is definatley there size wheres the comparison in that huh. but fllacos arm took us close to the super bowl but rothelisburgers took them TOO the sb

[AwakenTheDemon]

The biggest difference is their size? What are you smoking?

Joe Flacco: 6'6, 235 pounds
Ben Roethlisberger: 6'5, 241 pounds

That's a one inch, and 6 pound differential. Seems pretty similar to me.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1254346615' post='244972']
Ben is a top notch QB. Stats be damned.
His first Super Bowl win was anything BUT impressive. However, we would have never gotten that far if not for his play at QB (and one tackle in Indianapolis).

If the dude is running for his life after virutally every snap, I think it's reasonable to think that his "stats" are going to be affected. I'm glad he's our QB and not yours as it sounds like he might not get the appreciation he deserves.
[/quote]

See that's the thing though. All the Ben supporters will claim how poor his oline is and that is why he plays so bad at times. However he is just as much to blame as the oline.

Ben is not the only QB to play with an average oline. The difference is, other QBs identify the blitz and free rusher better the Ben. As a result they get the ball out of their hands quicker and connect on the hot route. It's like the movie Wedding Crashers....Hot route Hot route HOOTT ROOUUTTE!!!!.... I don't know Hot Route, what does that mean?...Just stand on the other side. It's like Ben doesn't know what a hot route is and when he should look for one.

Also, you say we wouldn't appreciate Ben if he were our QB, but there are a lot of Steelers fans that feel the same exact way we do. You guys are quick to boo Ben and criticize him, but like they say, winning cures everything right? You guys overlook 3 1/2 quarters of bad play for a game winning drive.

Honestly tell me you didn't think, Here we go again when Ben throw that pick 6. Because I know that I was telling the people around me that Ben would give the Bengals at least 1. I leave the basement for a moment and when I return the Bengals have scored. I'm like what happened and the answer...Ben gave them one. Lol.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Zhamtao' date='30 September 2009 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1254344147' post='244940']
I'm not sold. He's not the most upstanding citizen, and he's proud of it. There has been a campaign to discredit the female, and while I'm not inclined to believe her, I'm not inclined to believe a guy who's in love with himself either.
[/quote]


Whether or not he's an upstanding citizen is debateable. But I haven't heard anyone who's met him say he was a nice guy, whereas I have heard that he's a bit of a (rhymes with oooosh) ....which kinda sucks as a fan. It is what it is.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='30 September 2009 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1254348193' post='244993']
See that's the thing though. All the Ben supporters will claim how poor his oline is and that is why he plays so bad at times. However he is just as much to blame as the oline.

Ben is not the only QB to play with an average oline. The difference is, other QBs identify the blitz and free rusher better the Ben. As a result they get the ball out of their hands quicker and connect on the hot route. It's like the movie Wedding Crashers....Hot route Hot route HOOTT ROOUUTTE!!!!.... I don't know Hot Route, what does that mean?...Just stand on the other side. It's like Ben doesn't know what a hot route is and when he should look for one.

Also, you say we wouldn't appreciate Ben if he were our QB, but there are a lot of Steelers fans that feel the same exact way we do. You guys are quick to boo Ben and criticize him, but like they say, winning cures everything right? You guys overlook 3 1/2 quarters of bad play for a game winning drive.

Honestly tell me you didn't think, Here we go again when Ben throw that pick 6. Because I know that I was telling the people around me that Ben would give the Bengals at least 1. I leave the basement for a moment and when I return the Bengals have scored. I'm like what happened and the answer...Ben gave them one. Lol.
[/quote]

Yet, Tom Brady is always mentioned in the top two QBs list and we saw what happens when you apply pressure to Tom Brady. Ben chooses to extend the play most of those times. I have no problem with that.

[20ravens52]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1254346615' post='244972']
Ben is a top notch QB. Stats be damned.
His first Super Bowl win was anything BUT impressive. However, we would have never gotten that far if not for his play at QB (and one tackle in Indianapolis).

If the dude is running for his life after virutally every snap, I think it's reasonable to think that his "stats" are going to be affected. I'm glad he's our QB and not yours as it sounds like he might not get the appreciation he deserves.
[/quote]


No...truth be told he makes his O-line look bad at times. He holds onto the ball way too long at times. It is rare that he actually throws an accurate ball while he is in the pocket within the first 3 seconds in the pocket.

Ben has said it himself and doesn't blame his O-line because that is the way he plays the position. Honestly, it is really not a good idea for a QB, because you are going to take a lot of shots and his career will probably be a shorter one because of his QB style. We have already seen it, he gets banged up a lot.


Oh, and we would appreciate Burger if we still had Boller, but we now have a better all round in Flacco.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='PuRock' date='30 September 2009 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1254346416' post='244969']
Let's be honest, when Joe ditched the Unibrow - he left Rothlisberger in the dust.
[/quote]
Let's be honest, neither of them is Tom Brady.

Did anyone else see this? Doesn't Flacco know that Papa John's is better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-NXDapSWGA&feature=player_embedded

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1254348249' post='244995']
Whether or not he's an upstanding citizen is debateable. But I haven't heard anyone who's met him say he was a nice guy, whereas I have heard that he's a bit of a (rhymes with oooosh) ....which kinda sucks as a fan. It is what it is.
[/quote]
Ben's kind of funny though. Did you read the quarterback interview in SI a few weeks ago? I laughed when he said the worst part about his job is "the Bengals".

[thewarden86]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='30 September 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1254348711' post='245005']
[b]Let's be honest, neither of them is Tom Brady.[/b] [img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]


[/quote]


[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img]


You'll need to give me a minute to get over that .....statement.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='darklight1216' date='30 September 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1254348711' post='245005']



Ben's kind of funny though. Did you read the quarterback interview in SI a few weeks ago? I laughed when he said the worst part about his job is "the Bengals".
[/quote]


He only said that because Carson Palmer was in the room with him. It makes no sense really.....especially a few weeks ago.

[samic]

[quote name='Slick' date='27 September 2009 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1254095966' post='243019']
I mean, they are rather similar in that they manage the game well, aren't rattled by pressure, and have a good presence in the pocket. The difference is basically in the schemes their teams run. The Steelers continue to be the smashmouth team they've always been, griding out yards and passing when needed. The Ravens have altered their offense a little to give Flacco more freedom, so you're right that now we can expect a lot of yards coming as a result of his arm and less from the running game. I think Flacco is more mobile than Roethlisberger and in the end I think FLacco will be all-around a better QB but I can see why the two would draw comparisons.
[/quote]

I normally wait till reading all the posts to respond but I had to ask if you've seen the Steelers recently? They have not been successful running the ball for quite a while now. They have had to rely on Ben's arm a lot more now. I think that is why they aren't pulling through games like they did last year. Look at the Playbook episode that is going on on NFL network today. They are even commenting on how they have to throw the ball more because the run game is unsuccessful. Defenses are able to tee off on Ben and pick him off a lot more.

To get back to the topic of the thread. Flacco I think is the better QB. He has a better pocket presence in his second year. He throws a better deep ball. He minimizes his mistakes and protects the ball a lot better. Keep in mind though, that right now he has the better O-line and run support. The only real comparison is as others have said, their size, maybe their ability to scramble on broken plays. I've seen Flacco do some of those this season that I myself have said looks Roethlisbergeresque.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1254349372' post='245011']
[img]http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img]


You'll need to give me a minute to get over that .....statement.
[/quote]


Sorry man, but Brady is cute. Ben is not. Joe is growing on me, but that is just out of necesity.
[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1254349466' post='245013']
He only said that because Carson Palmer was in the room with him. It makes no sense really.....especially a few weeks ago.
[/quote]
He has to be up close and personal with the hideous monstrosity that is the Cincinnati Bengals uniforms twice a year. Who wouldn't hate that?

Whoever the drive-by troll is that is giving Warden minuses on every post needs to grow up.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='20ravens52' date='30 September 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1254348619' post='245002']
No...truth be told he makes his O-line look bad at times. He holds onto the ball way too long at times. It is rare that he actually throws an accurate ball while he is in the pocket within the first 3 seconds in the pocket.

Ben has said it himself and doesn't blame his O-line because that is the way he plays the position. Honestly, it is really not a good idea for a QB, because you are going to take a lot of shots and his career will probably be a shorter one because of his QB style. We have already seen it, he gets banged up a lot.


Oh, and we would appreciate Burger if we still had Boller, but we now have a better all round in Flacco.
[/quote]

VERY FEW QB's get the ball out in 3 seconds. C'mon now. Not being a pocket passer isn't the only measuring stick for a QB. Ben wins games in and out of the pocket. "Rare that he throws an accurate pass????" As compared to who? He's had his share of over/under throws like any other QB and he's had his share of perfectly thrown balls dropped. Who is he going to throw to in 3 seconds if now one is open and the pocket is ALREADY breaking down? He's done a lot more for that O-Line than they've done for him.

The only FACT here is that he's a proven winner.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1254350277' post='245020']
The only FACT here is that he's a proven winner.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, warden, but the only fact is that Pittsburgh is a proven winner (usually). Pittsburgh makes Ben, not the other way around. If he were on another team, I highly doubt he'd have the praise he has now.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1254348363' post='244996']
Yet, Tom Brady is always mentioned in the top two QBs list and we saw what happens when you apply pressure to Tom Brady. Ben chooses to extend the play most of those times. I have no problem with that.
[/quote]

The difference is that Brady is much better at handling the pressure then Ben. Most QBs will struggle with defenders in their face, but the better ones adapt to the pressure and puts pressure back on the defense.

It's like the Playoff games a few years back in '07 against Jax, I believe. The Jaguars D got great pressure on Ben in the wild card round. As a result to that pressure, Ben throws like 3 first half ints and had a fumble I believe. The Steelers defense kept them close but eventually you guys lost a close game.

The very next week the Pats, face the same Jag's defense. The Pats offense was as explosive and good as any. The Jags attempted to get pressure on Brady the same way they did Ben. However instead of Brady trying to hold the ball and force the ball down field to Moss, he chose to get the ball out of his hands quickly and put the pressure back on the defense.

I believe Brady started that game something like 22 for 25. By getting the ball out of his hands fast, he made the Jags stop bringing as much pressure and that's when things opened up down field.

So in back to back games against the same defense, one QB tried to be the star and attack the defense with big plays at all cost, even though there were none to be made. While the other, despite having the most prolific offense in NFL history, just took what the defense gave him and instead of being the big star was just smart and got his team to the next round.

Brady showed why he is among the Top 2 QBs mentioned and Ben showed why he is a good QB but will never be elite imo.

Do u remember these games? Maybe you have a different idea of how they played out.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='thewarden86' date='30 September 2009 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1254350277' post='245020']
[b]VERY FEW QB's get the ball out in 3 seconds.[/b] C'mon now. Not being a pocket passer isn't the only measuring stick for a QB. Ben wins games in and out of the pocket. "Rare that he throws an accurate pass????" As compared to who? He's had his share of over/under throws like any other QB and he's had his share of perfectly thrown balls dropped. Who is he going to throw to in 3 seconds if now one is open and the pocket is ALREADY breaking down? He's done a lot more for that O-Line than they've done for him.

The only FACT here is that he's a proven winner.
[/quote]
I know that you hate stats, so you probably won't like this, but just in case anyone is interested: the average sack occurs between 2.7 and 2.8 seconds after the ball is snapped.

(The following stats only apply to week 1-2)
The quarterbacks who held on to the ball the longest before being sacked are:

Sack time Number of sacks
Jason Campbell 3.66 3
Tom Brady 3.6 1
Jay Cutler 3.51 3
Mark Sanchez 3.51 2
Brady Quinn 3.29 9

The quarterbacks who have held on to the ball the shortest before being sacked:

Byron Leftwich 2.09 2
Tony Romo 2.1 1
Peyton Manning 2.29 2
Marc Bulger 2.46 4
Carson Palmer 2.47 5
Joe Flacco 2.52 2
Matt Stafford 2.53 3
Matt Schaub 2.6 2
Matt Ryan 2.62 2
Brodie Croyle 2.62 3

Ben R. is distinctly average in this area. He is usually sacked at about 2.9 seconds after the snap (19th of 33).

What can we conclude from these statistics? There are far too many Matts in the league.