198 replies to this topic

[AwakenTheDemon]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 04:31 PM, said:

Funny how you say Troy Smith is better then Vick, how many NFL games has Smith started again? How many games won? Please! Vick was a running back who could throw the ball decent. He could win games with random 10 other guys on the field.
Vick never threw for more the 3,000 yards, neither has Smith. Regardless of how he made the pro-bowl, he made it, and as a QB, and he has led a team to the playoffs..

Smith has never started a full season, so that statement is pointless. So is the argument that a former starter (and now back up) quarterback is better than a current back up quarterback. You don't have to be good to start, you can just be the guy there by default (look at Minnesota, Tampa Bay, and San Francisco). Let's say Sage Rosenfels starts. He's not particularly good, but he's essentially all Minnesota has (along with the equally lackluster Jackson). Would you say Rosenfels is better than Smith because he's starting and Smith is backing up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say Tavaris Jackson is better.

Once Troy starts for somebody (although I'd love to keep him as our #2 personally), and gets some seasons under his belt, then you can compare the two all you want. However, Troy is starting to show that he can throw the ball, and doesn't have to rely on his legs to garner a reputation and salvage his "quarterback" skill. You can't say the same for Vick, that's all he had.

[smashmouth]

AwakenTheDemon, on 16 August 2009 - 04:41 PM, said:

Smith has never started a full season, so that statement is pointless. So is the argument that a former starter (and now back up) quarterback is better than a current back up quarterback. You don't have to be good to start, you can just be the guy there by default (look at Minnesota, Tampa Bay, and San Francisco). Let's say Sage Rosenfels starts. He's not particularly good, but he's essentially all Minnesota has (along with the equally lackluster Jackson). Would you say Rosenfels is better than Smith because he's starting and Smith is backing up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even say Tavaris Jackson is better.

Once Troy starts for somebody (although I'd love to keep him as our #2 personally), and gets some seasons under his belt, then you can compare the two all you want. However, Troy is starting to show that he can throw the ball, and doesn't have to rely on his legs to garner a reputation and salvage his "quarterback" skill. You can't say the same for Vick, that's all he had.

It can and will be compared, he says that Smith is better then Vick, yet Smith was a 5th round draft choice and has NOT started but 2 games. Its a easy campare, Vick has started because he was that good, Smith has not because he was not NFL ready.

[BuckWilds]

PSU RAVEN, on 16 August 2009 - 02:29 PM, said:

I like him as the #2 QB. He looked competent and was elusive without getting sacked and giving up yards.

Did not notice the slow throws but it did seem to me that he almost always has to get outside of the pocket to make throws (kinda like Doug Flutie).

Oh absolutely - that's what I meant when I said he seemed quicker and more energetic. You can tell by comparing his movement this year versus last how sick he was. The movement was all sorts of different.

[berad]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 04:31 PM, said:

Funny how you say Troy Smith is better then Vick, how many NFL games has Smith started again? How many games won? Please! Vick was a running back who could throw the ball decent. He could win games with random 10 other guys on the field.
Vick never threw for more the 3,000 yards, neither has Smith. Regardless of how he made the pro-bowl, he made it, and as a QB, and he has led a team to the playoffs..

Change those questions endings to "within the last two years" and you'll see why I think so. Michael Vick has been out of the NFL, hasn't stepped on the field, since 2006. Sure, he had the amazing athletic ability to lead a team and make plays but how much of that has eroded? I doubt he gained anything, physically, from being in prison. So, "please", use some common sense.

[berad]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 04:44 PM, said:

It can and will be compared, he says that Smith is better then Vick, yet Smith was a 5th round draft choice and has NOT started but 2 games. Its a easy campare, Vick has started because he was that good, Smith has not because he was not NFL ready.

He's better as of now. Read what I've said and you'll find that I said I'll change my opinion if Vick can digest a playbook and regain his dominant athletic ability. He has to PROVE he is better than Troy Smith by what he does in the coming weeks, not by what he did in the last few years..

[smashmouth]

berad, on 16 August 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Change those questions endings to "within the last two years" and you'll see why I think so. Michael Vick has been out of the NFL, hasn't stepped on the field, since 2006. Sure, he had the amazing athletic ability to lead a team and make plays but how much of that has eroded? I doubt he gained anything, physically, from being in prison. So, "please", use some common sense.

He has been out for 2 years, I very much agree that he's not going to be "tear it up" Immeditly. But Vick is and was faster then Smith, and if way more experienced then Smith. Common sense should be used like this, NFL coaches are there for a reason, if they start a guy it's because he belongs. Vick was a starting QB for a reason, and has made the pro-bowl for a reason. For someone to say Troy Smith is better then Vick is NOT using common sense, I could care less if he hasnt been there for 2 years. Your oppinion could be that Smith is better then Vick, but that dont make it a fact, or make it right.

[AwakenTheDemon]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 04:44 PM, said:

It can and will be compared, he says that Smith is better then Vick, yet Smith was a 5th round draft choice and has NOT started but 2 games. Its a easy campare, Vick has started because he was that good, Smith has not because he was not NFL ready.

Did you not read everything I said? Starting does not mean "good", you can start by default, you work with what you have. Tavaris Jackson is not what I would call a "good quarterback", neither is Sage Rosenfels, but one will start. Does starting suddenly make them good?

And I'm sorry, not NFL ready? He didn't start because we had Steve McNair (who we still had high hopes for) and Kyle Boller (which we always seemed to hang onto for no reason). He had no chance of being a starter, and that doesn't mean he wasn't "NFL Ready". You don't get drafted lower just because you're not ready for the NFL. Smith didn't start because of the TEAM that drafted him.

And I'm sorry, but there are alot of quarterbacks that are drafted highly and aren't "NFL ready" that start (Matt Leinart anyone?).

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 05:04 PM, said:

Your oppinion could be that Smith is better then Vick, but that dont make it a fact, or make it right.

Then why are you passing your opinion off as fact?

Edited by AwakenTheDemon, 16 August 2009 - 05:10 PM.

[smashmouth]

berad, on 16 August 2009 - 05:00 PM, said:

He's better as of now. Read what I've said and you'll find that I said I'll change my opinion if Vick can digest a playbook and regain his dominant athletic ability. He has to PROVE he is better than Troy Smith by what he does in the coming weeks, not by what he did in the last few years..

Well Vick is not going to need to rush to learn a playbook. He cant play until the 3rd game at least, and maybe not until the 6th. He's not going to grab the starting job anyways unless injury or poor play. It's possable considering McNabb was benched for poor play last year though.

And saying "he's better as of now" is a way better way to put it, I can beleive that. But Vick strength was his running ability, there's no way he could diminish that bad in 2 years. Troy Smith is better passer now then Vick was ever anyways, he just is not a better qb.

[AwakenTheDemon]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 05:11 PM, said:

Troy Smith is better passer now then Vick was ever anyways, he just is not a better qb.

A quarterback's job is to complete passes. When you think of a quarterback, you think of people like Peyton Manning who is able to make passes and win games. Not of a runner.

And that's funny that you say is not a better Quarterback when you previously said:

smashmouth said:

Vick was a running back who could throw the ball decent.

Right there you even call him a running back who "could throw the ball decent".

Edited by AwakenTheDemon, 16 August 2009 - 05:29 PM.

[berad]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well Vick is not going to need to rush to learn a playbook. He cant play until the 3rd game at least, and maybe not until the 6th. He's not going to grab the starting job anyways unless injury or poor play. It's possable considering McNabb was benched for poor play last year though.

And saying "he's better as of now" is a way better way to put it, I can beleive that. But Vick strength was his running ability, there's no way he could diminish that bad in 2 years. Troy Smith is better passer now then Vick was ever anyways, he just is not a better qb.

He can't play until the third preseason game, yes, but after that it is Roger Goodell's discretion when he can see the field. He IS going to rush, though, it's tough to learn a whole playbook during TC but imagine coming in more than half a month behind most of the other players.

Michael Vick is not going to start for the Eagles unless McNabb goes down, Andy Reid learned his lesson the last time he benched #5. Troy Smith IS better now, he's been in this offense for two years, he has been playing and practicing in the NFL against NFL talent for the past two years, and he has been on a regimented training program unlike Vick.

You're basing your argument for Michael Vick > Troy Smith off of a hunch rather than facts. You believe his speed, agility, running ability didn't atrophy as a result of him spending 23 months in a federal prison cell. I believe otherwise, I think prison is no place to hone a professional athlete, especially one like Vick.

Agree to disagree and see how it works out in the coming months?

[berad]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 05:04 PM, said:

He has been out for 2 years, I very much agree that he's not going to be "tear it up" Immeditly. But Vick is and was faster then Smith, and if way more experienced then Smith. Common sense should be used like this, NFL coaches are there for a reason, if they start a guy it's because he belongs. Vick was a starting QB for a reason, and has made the pro-bowl for a reason. For someone to say Troy Smith is better then Vick is NOT using common sense, I could care less if he hasnt been there for 2 years. Your oppinion could be that Smith is better then Vick, but that dont make it a fact, or make it right.

That's the whole point!

Again, how do you know Michael Vick is faster than Troy Smith now? Based on what? Have you seen them running the track together?

[smashmouth]

AwakenTheDemon, on 16 August 2009 - 05:08 PM, said:

Did you not read everything I said? Starting does not mean "good", you can start by default, you work with what you have. Tavaris Jackson is not what I would call a "good quarterback", neither is Sage Rosenfels, but one will start. Does starting suddenly make them good?

And I'm sorry, not NFL ready? He didn't start because we had Steve McNair (who we still had high hopes for) and Kyle Boller (which we always seemed to hang onto for no reason). He had no chance of being a starter, and that doesn't mean he wasn't "NFL Ready". You don't get drafted lower just because you're not ready for the NFL. Smith didn't start because of the TEAM that drafted him.

And I'm sorry, but there are alot of quarterbacks that are drafted highly and aren't "NFL ready" that start (Matt Leinart anyone?).



Then why are you passing your opinion off as fact?

Passing my oppinion as fact? You really need facts? Your arguement is weak, seriously. Your trying to prove that Troy Smith is better then Michael Vick. A 5th round draft choice to a NUMBER ONE overall draft choice. Although that dont mean much sometimes, it defiently does here. A THREE time pro-bowl QB thats not as good as a three year backup.. one that couldent take the starting job from a rookie from a small school. Flacco may have won the job by default, but he justified starting the entire year. If Troy Smith is so good teams would be trying to trade for him.

Players get drafted lower based on a number of things. A big reason that QB's dont get drafted high is that there not ready to start in the NFL. Troy Smith for example.
I said Vick is a better QB and his main strength is his runing abilty. But I believe that Smith has a better throwing arm.

[smashmouth]

AwakenTheDemon, on 16 August 2009 - 05:28 PM, said:

A quarterback's job is to complete passes. When you think of a quarterback, you think of people like Peyton Manning who is able to make passes and win games. Not of a runner.

And that's funny that you say is not a better Quarterback when you previously said:



Right there you even call him a running back who "could throw the ball decent".

A QB's job is to run a offense. It dosent matter how it's done. Yes a typical QB, and in my oppinion the best QB's are one's who stay in the pocket. But Steve Young, Warren Moon, and Steve McNair were great QB's who scrambled. Vick is a runing QB who can pass the ball, nothing wrong with that if he can win games, which he does.


And you threw in there I said He's not a better QB, take a better look at my post, I said "Better passer". And my oppinion is that Smith is better. But thats oppinion, Troy Smith has not had a chance to start, he's just wasnt good enough. Maybe he is now, and i Think he is.

Edit: to answear your post about how I know that Vick is faster... I laughed out loud, Smith is slow, he runs a 4.6 40 yard dash. Vick ran a 4.3 40 and has been clocked at a 4.25. And while prison may not be the best lifting facility, it's not like he diddnt have anthing better to do. And Vick dosent look unhealthy as of rght now.

Edited by smashmouth, 16 August 2009 - 08:25 PM.

[berad]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 08:10 PM, said:

Passing my oppinion as fact? You really need facts? Your arguement is weak, seriously. Your trying to prove that Troy Smith is better then Michael Vick. A 5th round draft choice to a NUMBER ONE overall draft choice. Although that dont mean much sometimes, it defiently does here. A THREE time pro-bowl QB thats not as good as a three year backup.. one that couldent take the starting job from a rookie from a small school. Flacco may have won the job by default, but he justified starting the entire year. If Troy Smith is so good teams would be trying to trade for him.

Players get drafted lower based on a number of things. A big reason that QB's dont get drafted high is that there not ready to start in the NFL. Troy Smith for example.
I said Vick is a better QB and his main strength is his runing abilty. But I believe that Smith has a better throwing arm.

Michael Vick was the number one overall selection 8 YEARS AGO! I don't know why you're putting so much emphasis on the draft, it has very little to do with how well a given player performs. Troy Smith has outplayed his 5th round status, without a doubt, and it's fair to say Michael Vick has not lived up to his, for reasons on and off the field.

You're assertion is based off generalizations, "one that couldent take the starting job from a rookie from a small school" and "If Troy Smith is so good teams would be trying to trade for him". They're baseless, ignorant, and, frankly, insulting to yourself.

The fact of the matter is that no one has seen Vick in live action in over two years, the Eagles have no clue what they're getting with him at this point but they're still paying a high price in terms of the negative media, fans bailing, and numerous protesters. Troy Smith, I think, is better than an unknown who spent the last two years totally removed from the NFL and the outside world.

PS. I don't even know why you bother arguing about Vick. He's not a Raven, I'm glad he's not. Troy Smith is a more than capable back-up, that's his humble role on this team.

Edited by berad, 16 August 2009 - 08:23 PM.

[AwakenTheDemon]

smashmouth, on 16 August 2009 - 08:10 PM, said:

Passing my oppinion as fact? You really need facts? Your arguement is weak, seriously. Your trying to prove that Troy Smith is better then Michael Vick. A 5th round draft choice to a NUMBER ONE overall draft choice. Although that dont mean much sometimes, it defiently does here. A THREE time pro-bowl QB thats not as good as a three year backup.. one that couldent take the starting job from a rookie from a small school. Flacco may have won the job by default, but he justified starting the entire year. If Troy Smith is so good teams would be trying to trade for him.

Players get drafted lower based on a number of things. A big reason that QB's dont get drafted high is that there not ready to start in the NFL. Troy Smith for example.
I said Vick is a better QB and his main strength is his runing abilty. But I believe that Smith has a better throwing arm.

Your Number One Pick argument is defeated by the combined efforts of Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf. Try again.

What does "a rookie from a small school" have to do with anything? Flacco and Ryan were NOT your usual "rookies". Ugh, I'm really done arguing with you.

You said it yourself, Vick is essentially a running back who can sorta, kinda throw the ball. Smith is a quarterback. The Falcons were running the Wildcat before there was the wildcat, due to Vick.

Vick's "Main strength"? His running was his only strength, cause he sure took a risk everytime he threw the ball. At least Troy can make a pass.

Anyways, I'm through arguing with you.

[smashmouth]

AwakenTheDemon, on 16 August 2009 - 08:22 PM, said:

Your Number One Pick argument is defeated by the combined efforts of Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf. Try again.

What does "a rookie from a small school" have to do with anything? Flacco and Ryan were NOT your usual "rookies". Ugh, I'm really done arguing with you.

You said it yourself, Vick is essentially a running back who can sorta, kinda throw the ball. Smith is a quarterback. The Falcons were running the Wildcat before there was the wildcat, due to Vick.

Vick's "Main strength"? His running was his only strength, cause he sure took a risk everytime he threw the ball. At least Troy can make a pass.

Anyways, I'm through arguing with you.

for one I said nothing about combine efforts. Or nothing about college crendentals. The only reason people think Troy Smith is good is because of his play at Ohio State.

And your saying Vick can "only" run the ball? Funny how he has had 2900 passing yards in 02, 2300 in 04 and 2400 in both 05 and 06. These are not bad numbers, espcially considering he had 777 yards runing in 02 and throw in 1000 yards rushing in 06.

[Marc2k6]

edreedfromtheu, on 15 August 2009 - 02:14 PM, said:

Can a moderator please just end this thread?


Troy Smith was playing against number 2's but he was also playing WITH number 2's. I LOVE how the haters conveniently leave that part out. And he came back in to play against the guys fighting for a roster spot because Beck got hurt.

Nobody cares if you are impressed or not with Troy Smith. The fact is, he hasn't done anything but succeed when he gets a chance to play. He hasn't sabotaged our defense for years like Boller did. There is absolutely no reason to sneak in jabs and insults at him until he has given you a reason to.

No! Troy played a good game and I along with others are going to talk about it and give him his props no matter what the hater's say. He brings a different dynamic to the game when he is on the field and it is exciting to see him out there, especially to see him putting Justin Harper on display. No matter how many ball Harper dropped Troy continued to give him another try.
As far as Troy being the starting QB for the Raven's, Flacco is the guy right now and that is it. Troy will get his chance more than likely with another team. So let all of the Troy hater's be Troy's motivator's

[rastaman831226]

edreedfromtheu, on 15 August 2009 - 02:14 PM, said:

Can a moderator please just end this thread?


Troy Smith was playing against number 2's but he was also playing WITH number 2's. I LOVE how the haters conveniently leave that part out. And he came back in to play against the guys fighting for a roster spot because Beck got hurt.

Nobody cares if you are impressed or not with Troy Smith. The fact is, he hasn't done anything but succeed when he gets a chance to play. He hasn't sabotaged our defense for years like Boller did. There is absolutely no reason to sneak in jabs and insults at him until he has given you a reason to.

Well said. Flacco Lovers feel threatened by Troy Smith (and I think I know why). And it's really asinine stance to take given Troy's progress is important to the overall fitness of the Ravens QB corps. Troy Smith looks healthy and stronger than before ( looks like he did some real work in the weight room) and is doing what he was drafted to do, Move the sticks. Keep 'em comin' Troy. GO RAVENS!!

[berad]

Marc2k6, on 16 August 2009 - 08:41 PM, said:

No! Troy played a good game and I along with others are going to talk about it and give him his props no matter what the hater's say. He brings a different dynamic to the game when he is on the field and it is exciting to see him out there, especially to see him putting Justin Harper on display. No matter how many ball Harper dropped Troy continued to give him another try.
As far as Troy being the starting QB for the Raven's, Flacco is the guy right now and that is it. Troy will get his chance more than likely with another team. So let all of the Troy hater's be Troy's motivator's

Well, to be fair, he was doing that because Cam Cameron was telling him to. It's preseason and they were trying to see what Harper could do in a game situation.

[berad]

rastaman831226, on 16 August 2009 - 08:43 PM, said:

Well said. Flacco Lovers feel threatened by Troy Smith (and I think I know why). And it's really asinine stance to take given Troy's progress is important to the overall fitness of the Ravens QB corps. Troy Smith looks healthy and stronger than before ( looks like he did some real work in the weight room) and is doing what he was drafted to do, Move the sticks. Keep 'em comin' Troy. GO RAVENS!!

When did this become a Flacco vs Smith thing? Joe Flacco is our starter, he took us to the playoffs, he won 11 games for us, he won 2 playoff games on the road! Troy Smith is, humbly, the back-up QB for this franchise.