Clayton Named Ravens #1 Wr?

[flynismo]

[quote name='SupaBwandin' date='24 July 2009 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1248469479' post='209744']
We need to stay away from the old people and let our young guys get into the game, its really frustrating. We could have the next big reciever on our roster, but we'll never know because he never saw the field and we released him.

And im tired of people saying clayton is trash. You seen what hes capable of, and with mason gone, we'll be seeing alot more.

Quit bashin.
[/quote]


Oh yeah, we've seen what he's capable of for the past four years. Not very impressive.

[tweety]

[quote name='flynismo' date='25 July 2009 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1248557451' post='210042']
Oh yeah, we've seen what he's capable of for the past four years. Not very impressive.
[/quote]
Speak for yourself..take a peek at the sig

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='WACKO4FLACC0' date='25 July 2009 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1248548538' post='210018']
you have to judge him from last years performance...[b]Mason was injured [/b]and HE STILL DIDNT STEP UP...you have to judge players from what they did last year...[b]do you pick players in the NFL draft by not looking at their games in college?[/b]
[/quote]

First off that is nowhere near the same thing. But if you didn't want to take that college games and draft approach, how many times have you seen a guy dominate in college and not be able to produce in college? Boller was drafted because of what he did his last year of college, how did that work out? Travis Taylor was drafted because he was viewed as a great WR at Florida, how did that work out? Yes looking at pervious games helps you determine what a guy MIGHT be able to do, however it doesn't tell you what they WILL do in the next season.

In 06' McNair lead us to a 13-4 season. 2 games before the playoff started McNair looked great vs Pitt. putting up over 250 yards passing. In the next 2 games he didn't look like he could throw the ball pass 30 yards down field. What you did perviously really doesn't matter. Is it fun to look, and can you get some good info from lookin at it? Yes but it doesn't say anything about what will happen this year.

Oh and for the people that beleive that Clayton can only play well agianst poor teams. Well you should confident going into the season because the Ravens play 10 games vs teams that finished in the bottom half of the league in pass defending last year. Because of course if they were poor pass defending teams last year they will definately be poor pass defending teams this year right?

Cin,Cle,SD,KC,DEN,Minn,Chi,Det all finished 16th or worse last year in passing. Well actually Cle and Cinn finished 14th and 15th but i'm sure you get the point.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='25 July 2009 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1248522914' post='209955']
[b]Actually as i pointed out in one of my previous post Percentages do lie. Mason and Clayton couldn't connect on the same 2 pass attempts per game for whatever reason. The difference being Mason was given 7 chances to catch 5 balls and Clayton was given 5 chances to catch 3. Now give or take a few attempt per game and the percentages look like this.

Mason 5-7 71%
Clayton 3-5 60%[/b]

[/quote]

The percentages aren't over one game, it's year after year. Just like in real life you don't grade a player based on a single game.

Common sense 101.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='tweety' date='25 July 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1248557567' post='210044']
Speak for yourself..take a peek at the sig
[/quote]

Because the Bungles have such a spectacular D?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='25 July 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1248571632' post='210073']
The percentages aren't over one game, it's year after year. Just like in real life you don't grade a player based on a single game.

Common sense 101.
[/quote]

Common sense 101 would tell you that it's not a one game stat. it's called averages. If someone averages 5 catches a game like Mason then you get 80 receptions over 16 games.

If a guy averages 7 pass attempts per game like Mason then you would have 112 pass attempts over 16 games.

If a guy averages 3 catches a game like Clayton, then you would have about 48 receptions over 16 games give or take.

If a guy averages 4-5 pass attempt per game like Claytonthen you would have about 64-80 attempts over 16 games. Clayton had 75 attempts.

Still with me? ok so common sense 101 as you put it, wpuld tell you that, if a guy who catches every 3 out of 5 passes thrown his way, then only 2 of those passes can fall incomplete. Given the fact that Clayton didn't drop a single pass over 16 games, common sense would say that if given a chance to catch 7 passes a game, Clayton would come down with 5 of them.

Ok i know it can get a little confusing, but here is the fun part. If one guy gets a chance to catch 7 passes a game and connects on 5. and other guy gets 5 chances and connects on 3 passes. What is the difference betwenn the two guys. Both of them missed on 2 passes. The difference is the opportunities.

Ok now lets bring this thing home, we are gonna stay on the common sense thing, i mean that's what most people understand right? alright here we go. This is how fickle precentages can be. The same 2 missed passes in 5 different situations.

2/4= 50% Over 16 games would be. 32/64= 50%
3/5= 60% Over 16 games would be. 48/80= 60%
5/7= 71% Over 16 games would be. 80/112= 71%
7/9= 77% Over 16 games would be. 112/144= 77%
9/11= 82% Over 16 games would be. 144/176= 82%

Now common sense say that if two guys both miss on the same amount of passes(which would be 2 in this case), the guy that has more chances will....A. catch more passes.....B. Have a higher percentage. So yes percentages do lie no matter if its single game stats or a season full of stats.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='25 July 2009 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1248579589' post='210095']
Common sense 101 would tell you that it's not a one game stat. it's called averages. If someone averages 5 catches a game like Mason then you get 80 receptions over 16 games.

If a guy averages 7 pass attempts per game like Mason then you would have 112 pass attempts over 16 games.

If a guy averages 3 catches a game like Clayton, then you would have about 48 receptions over 16 games give or take.

If a guy averages 4-5 pass attempt per game like Claytonthen you would have about 64-80 attempts over 16 games. Clayton had 75 attempts.

Still with me? ok so common sense 101 as you put it, wpuld tell you that, if a guy who catches every 3 out of 5 passes thrown his way, then only 2 of those passes can fall incomplete. Given the fact that Clayton didn't drop a single pass over 16 games, common sense would say that if given a chance to catch 7 passes a game, Clayton would come down with 5 of them.

Ok i know it can get a little confusing, but here is the fun part. If one guy gets a chance to catch 7 passes a game and connects on 5. and other guy gets 5 chances and connects on 3 passes. What is the difference betwenn the two guys. Both of them missed on 2 passes. The difference is the opportunities.

Ok now lets bring this thing home, we are gonna stay on the common sense thing, i mean that's what most people understand right? alright here we go. This is how fickle precentages can be. The same 2 missed passes in 5 different situations.

2/4= 50% Over 16 games would be. 32/64= 50%
3/5= 60% Over 16 games would be. 48/80= 60%
5/7= 71% Over 16 games would be. 80/112= 71%
7/9= 77% Over 16 games would be. 112/144= 77%
9/11= 82% Over 16 games would be. 144/176= 82%

Now common sense say that if two guys both miss on the same amount of passes(which would be 2 in this case), the guy that has more chances will....A. catch more passes.....B. Have a higher percentage. So yes percentages do lie no matter if its single game stats or a season full of stats.
[/quote]

I'm too lazy to go back and read everything, but I'm not really following you here.... what lie is the percentages telling us in your scenario?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' date='25 July 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1248579841' post='210096']
I'm too lazy to go back and read everything, but I'm not really following you here.... what lie is the percentages telling us in your scenario?
[/quote]

i was really just having fun, but originally it was said that Clayton would have t o have about 200 attempt to catch 100 balls because he only catches the ball at a 54% rate, or he would need like 180 attempt for 80 receptions(don't quote me on those number, but they are in the thread). It was said that Clayton would never break out because he only connects on 54% and Mason does on 68%.

The whole point is that Clayton and Mason catches the ball at the same rate. The only difference is that Mason had more attempts then Clayton. Now if Clayton had the same 117 attemtps as Mason and only caught like 60 balls and had that 54% precentage then it would hold much more weight. However in this case it doesn't.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='26 July 2009 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1248581259' post='210101']

i was really just having fun, but originally it was said that Clayton would have t o have about 200 attempt to catch 100 balls because he only catches the ball at a 54% rate, or he would need like 180 attempt for 80 receptions(don't quote me on those number, but they are in the thread). It was said that[b] Clayton would never break out because he only connects on 54% and Mason does on 68%. [/b]

The whole point is that [b]Clayton and Mason catches the ball at the same rate.[/b] The only difference is that Mason had more attempts then Clayton. Now if Clayton had the same 117 attemtps as Mason and only caught like 60 balls and had that 54% precentage then it would hold much more weight. However in this case it doesn't.
[/quote]


But that's what confuses me about your posts....they dont catch passes at the same rate. According to your %'s above, Mace caught them at a significantly higher rate. What that indicates is that Mace does a better job getting enough seperation to make a play, has better hands, etc...
So I tend to agree with the argument that Clayton will never break out, if we are basing it on these particular stats.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

People need to show some faith in the guy, heck he has shown flashes of brilliance and is a very versatile receiver.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' date='26 July 2009 - 03:25 AM' timestamp='1248593152' post='210139']
[b]But that's what confuses me about your posts....they dont catch passes at the same rate. According to your %'s above, Mace caught them at a significantly higher rate. What that indicates is that Mace does a better job getting enough seperation to make a play, has better hands, etc...[/b]
So I tend to agree with the argument that Clayton will never break out, if we are basing it on these particular stats.
[/quote]

But Mason doesn't catch the ball at a singificantly higher rate, he just had more opportunities. If you and i had a competition to see who could catch the best. I had 100 attemtpts and only dropped 2. You on the other hand came late and had 50 chances and only dropped 2. That would put my catches at 98 and your catches at 48, does that mean i catch better then you? No i just had more chances.

Clayton was credited for zero dropped balls last year, so how are his hands in question? I will agree that Mason is a much better route running, but hell that's like 13 years of experience.

If you have 2 WRs running routes. Both WRs are open on the play. Who do you throw the ball to? Your #1 guy or your #2 guy? I ask this because Clayton got open just as much on those comeback, outs, and dig routes as Mason, but if your #1 option is open why look to your #2?

Lastly i'll ask this. What would some of you consider a Break out year for Clayton. Cause i'm thinking 70-80+ catches and 1100-1200 yards would do it. If you agree with those numbers being consider break out worthy, then i'll share this.

In order to for a WR to get 80 catches he must average 5 catches a game. In order from him to go over 1100 yards he must average about 13.5 yards a catch. So if Clayton was thrown to on average of 5 times last year. He caught 3 of every 5, was credited for 0 drops and average 17 yards per catch. Would i be crazy for thinking that a much improved Joe Flacco could get the ball in Clayton's direction about 7 times a game? And because they only missed on average of 2 times per game last year, that if given those 7 attempts that Clayton and Flacco could connect on 5 of them?

Because i feel if you can connect(connect instead of catch, cuz he didn't drop a ball)3 of 5 pass attempts, then you should be able to connect on 5 of 7. I also believe that in the 2 seasons he played with a decent QB, he averaged 15 ypc, so it wouldn't be hard for him to average 14 ypc this year.

5 recs at 14ypc per game = 80rec 1120yds over 16 games. Is that really that hard to believe? That's 70 yards a game, nothing special. He averaged about 45 yards per game last year. So is 3 more first down a game really that hard to believe?

I mean i'm not really to label the guy a top flight WR, but i get the impression that many think the guy isn't worth anything. I don't know maybe i'm not seeing it clearly. All i know is that Camp starts in about 3 days, so there is no need to continue to talk about this. From this point on Clayton's actions hard work and production will speak loudly for him. Either good or bad.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='26 July 2009 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1248618128' post='210177']
But Mason doesn't catch the ball at a singificantly higher rate, he just had more opportunities. If you and i had a competition to see who could catch the best. I had 100 attemtpts and only dropped 2. You on the other hand came late and had 50 chances and only dropped 2. That would put my catches at 98 and your catches at 48, does that mean i catch better then you? No i just had more chances.
[/quote]

This "data" is too small of a sample, the standard deviation is too high and doesnt apply here, its just noise. Your percentages are out of sync because your fractions are out of sync.

3/5 and 5/7 in a single game tells us nothing, but if you're going to project it use
equivalent fractions, 3/5 does not equal 5/7 or 8/10. If two WRs catch 2/4 and 8/10 respectively it doesnt mean much, but if they average 2/4 and 8/10 per game over 2,3,4 seasons etc, then thats not the QB at fault, thats the difference between the WRs.

Also,even though 2 misses over 50 or 100 attempts might seem neglible (and it is) technically it would mean you track the ball better.

[neepo13]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='26 July 2009 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1248663088' post='210288']
This "data" is too small of a sample, the standard deviation is too high and doesnt apply here, its just noise. Your percentages are out of sync because your fractions are out of sync.

3/5 and 5/7 in a single game tells us nothing, but if you're going to project it use
equivalent fractions, 3/5 does not equal 5/7 or 8/10. If two WRs catch 2/4 and 8/10 respectively it doesnt mean much, but if they average 2/4 and 8/10 per game over 2,3,4 seasons etc, then thats not the QB at fault, thats the difference between the WRs.

Also,even though 2 misses over 50 or 100 attempts might seem neglible (and it is) technically it would mean you track the ball better.
[/quote]

I am not following your logic here. How can you not factor the QB into the situation when one guy is being given 10 chances to catch the ball and one guy is being given 4? I agree that it can be the difference between the recievers but I dont think thats a given. If both wr's are thrown to 4 times in the 1st quarter and they both only catch two of the passes and then for the rest of game wr 1 goes onto catch 6 more passes while the other guy wasnt thrown to again, how is that the wr's fault for not equaling the production of the other guy?

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

More pressure on Clayton now that Bennett has retired...

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='neepo13' date='26 July 2009 - 10:03 PM' timestamp='1248663803' post='210295']
I am not following your logic here. How can you not factor the QB into the situation when one guy is being given 10 chances to catch the ball and one guy is being given 4? I agree that it can be the difference between the recievers but I dont think thats a given. If both wr's are thrown to 4 times in the 1st quarter and they both only catch two of the passes and then for the rest of game wr 1 goes onto catch 6 more passes while the other guy wasnt thrown to again, how is that the wr's fault for not equaling the production of the other guy?
[/quote]

Single game hypotheticals mean nothing because you can't grade the ability of a WR from one game. They have had the same QBs over the same 4 seasons, the only two conclusions you could make for their percentages is that Flacco threw a more catchable ball to Mason and a less catchable ball to Clayton, or that Mason tracked the ball better and is a better WR. Hmmm.

If it wasn't a "given" that Mason is the better WR then he wouldn't have be called our #1 WR, he wouldn't have been Flacco's favorite and most reliable target. Two years ago we were talking about Mase as a ready to decline WR and moving him out to the slot and Clayton/DWill breaking out, only Mason got better and Clayton/DWill, well we're still waiting.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

ALL I KNOW IS THAT CLAYTON IS OUR #1!!!! NO BOLDIN, NO MARSHALL, NO FA TO EVEN COMPEAT, JUST FAITH IN CLAYTON FROM THE COACHES AND FO!!!! Proponents of clayton dont even have to respond to the antagonists cuz we already won... haters are just gonna cry and cry till their blue in the face and it wont change a thing except their enjoyment of the team so let them hate our WR our GM our coaching staff our offense because their not gonna get their way. MARK CLAYTON is finally gonna get his chance to get 100+balls tossed his way. He has been D.Masons apprentice since he was drafted, BUT NOW HE IS THE #1 SO HATERS ARE JUST GONNA HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT

you may now continue fly and blood and wacco and whoever i forgot
hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hate

[WinnipegRaven]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='26 July 2009 - 08:22 AM' timestamp='1248618128' post='210177']
But Mason doesn't catch the ball at a singificantly higher rate, he just had more opportunities. If you and i had a competition to see who could catch the best. I had 100 attemtpts and only dropped 2. You on the other hand came late and had 50 chances and only dropped 2. That would put my catches at 98 and your catches at 48, does that mean i catch better then you? No i just had more chances.

Clayton was credited for zero dropped balls last year, so how are his hands in question? I will agree that Mason is a much better route running, but hell that's like 13 years of experience.

If you have 2 WRs running routes. Both WRs are open on the play. Who do you throw the ball to? Your #1 guy or your #2 guy? I ask this because Clayton got open just as much on those comeback, outs, and dig routes as Mason, but if your #1 option is open why look to your #2?

Lastly i'll ask this. What would some of you consider a Break out year for Clayton. Cause i'm thinking 70-80+ catches and 1100-1200 yards would do it. If you agree with those numbers being consider break out worthy, then i'll share this.

In order to for a WR to get 80 catches he must average 5 catches a game. In order from him to go over 1100 yards he must average about 13.5 yards a catch. So if Clayton was thrown to on average of 5 times last year. He caught 3 of every 5, was credited for 0 drops and average 17 yards per catch. Would i be crazy for thinking that a much improved Joe Flacco could get the ball in Clayton's direction about 7 times a game? And because they only missed on average of 2 times per game last year, that if given those 7 attempts that Clayton and Flacco could connect on 5 of them?

Because i feel if you can connect(connect instead of catch, cuz he didn't drop a ball)3 of 5 pass attempts, then you should be able to connect on 5 of 7. I also believe that in the 2 seasons he played with a decent QB, he averaged 15 ypc, so it wouldn't be hard for him to average 14 ypc this year.

5 recs at 14ypc per game = 80rec 1120yds over 16 games. Is that really that hard to believe? That's 70 yards a game, nothing special. He averaged about 45 yards per game last year. So is 3 more first down a game really that hard to believe?

I mean i'm not really to label the guy a top flight WR, but i get the impression that many think the guy isn't worth anything. I don't know maybe i'm not seeing it clearly. All i know is that Camp starts in about 3 days, so there is no need to continue to talk about this. From this point on Clayton's actions hard work and production will speak loudly for him. Either good or bad.
[/quote]

Nice post - I tried to give ya +1 but for some reason it says I've reached my maximum allowable for the day even though I probably have only hit the repuation + or - maybe twice in the past week

[neepo13]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='27 July 2009 - 01:46 AM' timestamp='1248673564' post='210351']
Single game hypotheticals mean nothing because you can't grade the ability of a WR from one game. They have had the same QBs over the same 4 seasons, the only two conclusions you could make for their percentages is that Flacco threw a more catchable ball to Mason and a less catchable ball to Clayton, or that Mason tracked the ball better and is a better WR. Hmmm.

If it wasn't a "given" that Mason is the better WR then he wouldn't have be called our #1 WR, he wouldn't have been Flacco's favorite and most reliable target. Two years ago we were talking about Mase as a ready to decline WR and moving him out to the slot and Clayton/DWill breaking out, only Mason got better and Clayton/DWill, well we're still waiting.
[/quote]

Your thinking is way to narrow. You dont take into consideration the routes or assignments each guy was given, the progression that Flacco goes through or any of that. Its not as black and white as you want to make it seem.And if you go back and watch the game film, what you said about Flacco's throwing is not that far off. Mason's routes barely take him past the first down marker. They are easier routes to complete because Flacco just has to aim for the numbers. Clayton was given the routes that go deep down field, which means if Flacco doesnt hit him in stride, unless he makes an unbelievable catch its not going to be a completetion. Lets not forget, how Mason got hurt in the first place. Its because he was running a route deeper then his usual routes and he tried to go up on a ball that was overthrown by Flacco. I am not sure when or if its coming on again but I challenge you to watch the playoff game vs the Dolphins on nfl network. I counted at least 3 times in that game where Clayton had a step downfield and Flacco overthrew him.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

[quote name='neepo13' date='27 July 2009 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1248716319' post='210497']
I am not sure when or if its coming on again but I challenge you to watch the playoff game vs the Dolphins on nfl network. I counted at least 3 times in that game where Clayton had a step downfield and Flacco overthrew him.
[/quote]
watch for these times
clayton:
7:20 1st(gameclock) good double move step on defender overthrown

5:36 1st ran good rout found hole in the zone faught for and got first after hit by 2 tacklers

1:37 2nd "Mark Clayton was open and it was a big play" Flacco roll out left and check down to Willis

:44 2nd watch the top right of your screen Clayton is double covered and has a couple steps on both defenders

12:39 3rd good rout with good body position(boxed out defender), left arm grabbed by both hands of MIA#21. no call...

8:18 3rd good rout, nice "jabstep" at the end, and again fought after hit for the first

13:09 4th had separation from defender, overthrown

12:20 4th again separation enough to cross from outside to inside the defender and still have a step on him, dove for the ball, "out of reach for Clayton" overthrow

[Twoo]

The more I think about it the less I am concerned with our current WR core. Clayton has shown some amazing abilities in the past and has never really got the opportunity to get the ball thrown at him on a frequent basis. D. Williams is extremely quick, tall and a deep threat as long as he stays healthy. Then we have Washington, Figurs, etc... all plausible 3rd and 4th wr's.

Joe Flacco is entering his Sophmore year after one of the greatest rookie QB seasons in NFL history and breaking numerous records set by some of the NFL elite. We upped our front line, locked Suggs and Lewis.

ALL IN ALL... we're going to have a great season. Last year we had a TON of injuries, had a almost entirely new primary coaching staff and playbook. This year Cam is going to flip a couple pages, open Flacco up and have our running game be back to 100%.

People can say what they want about our WR core, but they forget we have one of the best running games in the NFL, one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL, one of the best offensive coordinators to ever hold a clipboard and a QB who has the support of an entire city (which is rare).

We're posed for some amazing things this season. Superbowl? I won't say that, but considering the problems we faced last year we still got within one game from the most important game in a football players life.

/rant

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='27 July 2009 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1248724713' post='210556']
watch for these times
clayton:
7:20 1st(gameclock) good double move step on defender overthrown

5:36 1st ran good rout found hole in the zone faught for and got first after hit by 2 tacklers

1:37 2nd "Mark Clayton was open and it was a big play" Flacco roll out left and check down to Willis

[b]:44 2nd watch the top right of your screen Clayton is double covered and has a couple steps on both defenders[/b]

12:39 3rd good rout with good body position(boxed out defender), left arm grabbed by both hands of MIA#21. no call...

8:18 3rd good rout, nice "jabstep" at the end, and again fought after hit for the first

13:09 4th had separation from defender, overthrown

12:20 4th again separation enough to cross from outside to inside the defender and still have a step on him, dove for the ball, "out of reach for Clayton" overthrow
[/quote]

If you are talking about the long pass to Mason before the half with i think you are, then that wasn't Mark Clayton. It was Marcus Smith. If your watch the game again you'll see.

Clayton was lined up at the top of the field. Smith and Mason at the bottom. Smith came in motion, at the snap of the ball Clayton ran a really short crossing pattern. That route held the underneath coverage of the DB, with Flacco's pump fake. This allowed Mason to get 10 yards behind the coverage and give Flacco's a bigger window to fit the ball into Mason.

Smith on the other hand just ran a deep post type pattern that got him behind the two defender. However that adds to my point about a young Flacco. Flacco held the defense with his pump fake but never took his eyes off Mason's side of the field. Had Flacco held the ball a bit longer and scanned the whole field he would have seen Smith get behind the defense and that could have been a TD instead of a FG just before the half.

Now you can't blame Flacco for that because it was a hellva play. However that goes to the point of taking advantage of opportunties. That is why i think it is foolish to say that Mason had so many catches because he got open more then anyone else. No; other WRs got open last year, it was just Flacco's comfort level with his Veteran WR that caused him to look in Mason's direction often.

This year with Flacco being more comfortable with the offense aswell as being more comfortable as an NFL QB, that play could turn into a TD instead of a long pass that leads to a FG.

Also it should be noted that on that pass play to McGahee where the commentators said Clayton was open deep down field, Flacco rolled out of the pocket way too early, but again that is the result of a rookie QB, look for him to be much better with that this year and connect on those deep passes.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BloodRaven' date='26 July 2009 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1248663088' post='210288']
This "data" is too small of a sample, the standard deviation is too high and doesnt apply here, its just noise. Your percentages are out of sync because your fractions are out of sync.

3/5 and 5/7 in a single game tells us nothing, but if you're going to project it use
equivalent fractions, 3/5 does not equal 5/7 or 8/10. If two WRs catch 2/4 and 8/10 respectively it doesnt mean much, but if they average 2/4 and 8/10 per game over 2,3,4 seasons etc, then thats not the QB at fault, thats the difference between the WRs.

Also,even though 2 misses over 50 or 100 attempts might seem neglible (and it is) technically it would mean you track the ball better.
[/quote]

Ok i told myself i wouldn't get involved in this whole Mark Clayton thing anymore because Camp was starting and his actions would speak the loudest, so this is the last time(i know u guys are sick of me).

Ok so it seems like you are really stuck on this whole precentage thing. You say Clayton isn't good because he only catches 54% of passes in his direction. I say that the 54% is really misleading, therefore it's irrelevent.

Ok so here we go. One of the reasons Mason is so much better is because he catches the ball at 68% right?

Here are a few other percentages from some of the top WRs in the league.

Steve Smith(Car) 63%
Reggie Wayne 64%
Larry Fitz 66%
Roddy White 62%
Antonio Byrant 59%
Brandon Marshall 59%
Santiono Holmes 50%
Calvin Johnson 53%
Randy Moss 58%
Terrell Owens 49%
DWayne Bowe 55%
Braylon Edwards 43%

Now all of these WR aren't great but some of them are in the top 5-10 in league. Smith, Fitz, Johnson, Marshall, Wayne, Bryant and White were all in the top 10 in the league. Now Mason is a great WR but his production doesn't come close to some of these guys.

Mason caught the ball at 68%, does that make him better then an Randy Moss who only caught 58% of the passes thrown his way? Hell many people here wanted Marshall even before Mason's retirement, he only caught 59% of the passes thrown his way, do you think that guy could help us out?

Brandon Marshall was given 160 chances to catch 95 balls. That means he caught 6 out of 10 attempts thrown to him. He dropped 14 passes last year. So if he caught 6 of 10 and Mason caught 5 of 7, does that mean Marshall tracked the ball better then Mason last year? Marshall had 95 catches Mason had 80 does that means Marshall has better hands then Mason? Marshall was thrown to 160 times, Mason 117. Does that mean Marshall was open far more then Mason which would suggest that he runs better routes then Mason? Josh Reed of the Bills caught the ball at 71%, does that mean he's a better WR then Mason.

Hopefully this shows you just how irrelevant the caught% really is and how that doesn't really measure the effectiness of a WR all the times. The more opportunities you get the more chances you have to be effective.

So if the precentages don't lie, then 7 of the top 10 WRs last year need to be re evaluated. Because they weren't really that good, percentage wise.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' date='27 July 2009 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1248745794' post='210697']
Ok i told myself i wouldn't get involved in this whole Mark Clayton thing anymore because Camp was starting and his actions would speak the loudest, so this is the last time(i know u guys are sick of me).

Ok so it seems like you are really stuck on this whole precentage thing. You say Clayton isn't good because he only catches 54% of passes in his direction. I say that the 54% is really misleading, therefore it's irrelevent.

Ok so here we go. One of the reasons Mason is so much better is because he catches the ball at 68% right?

Here are a few other percentages from some of the top WRs in the league.

Steve Smith(Car) 63%
Reggie Wayne 64%
Larry Fitz 66%
Roddy White 62%
[b]Antonio Byrant 59%[/b]
Brandon Marshall 59%
Santiono Holmes 50%
Calvin Johnson 53%
Randy Moss 58%
Terrell Owens 49%
DWayne Bowe 55%
Braylon Edwards 43%

Now all of these WR aren't great but some of them are in the top 5-10 in league. Smith, Fitz, Johnson, Marshall, Wayne, Bryant and White were all in the top 10 in the league. Now Mason is a great WR but his production doesn't come close to some of these guys.

Mason caught the ball at 68%, does that make him better then an Randy Moss who only caught 58% of the passes thrown his way? Hell many people here wanted Marshall even before Mason's retirement, he only caught 59% of the passes thrown his way, do you think that guy could help us out?

Brandon Marshall was given 160 chances to catch 95 balls. That means he caught 6 out of 10 attempts thrown to him. He dropped 14 passes last year. So if he caught 6 of 10 and Mason caught 5 of 7, does that mean Marshall tracked the ball better then Mason last year? Marshall had 95 catches Mason had 80 does that means Marshall has better hands then Mason? Marshall was thrown to 160 times, Mason 117. Does that mean Marshall was open far more then Mason which would suggest that he runs better routes then Mason? Josh Reed of the Bills caught the ball at 71%, does that mean he's a better WR then Mason.

Hopefully this shows you just how irrelevant the caught% really is and how that doesn't really measure the effectiness of a WR all the times. The more opportunities you get the more chances you have to be effective.

So if the precentages don't lie, then 7 of the top 10 WRs last year need to be re evaluated. Because they weren't really that good, percentage wise.
[/quote]

Good post.

However, I am scratching my head on the Antonio Bryant percentage. That's either a typo or reflects a heavy dose of screen passes.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Mahatma_Sloth' date='27 July 2009 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1248714572' post='210480']
ALL I KNOW IS THAT CLAYTON IS OUR #1!!!! NO BOLDIN, NO MARSHALL, NO FA TO EVEN COMPEAT, JUST FAITH IN CLAYTON FROM THE COACHES AND FO!!!! Proponents of clayton dont even have to respond to the antagonists cuz we already won... haters are just gonna cry and cry till their blue in the face and it wont change a thing except their enjoyment of the team so let them hate our WR our GM our coaching staff our offense because their not gonna get their way. MARK CLAYTON is finally gonna get his chance to get 100+balls tossed his way. He has been D.Masons apprentice since he was drafted, BUT NOW HE IS THE #1 SO HATERS ARE JUST GONNA HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT

you may now continue fly and blood and wacco and whoever i forgot
hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hatehate hate hate hate hate
[/quote]

Lol. Thats some high quality E-rage

[BloodRaven]

[quote]Ok so it seems like you are really stuck on this whole precentage thing. You say Clayton isn't good because he only catches 54% of passes in his direction. I say that the 54% is really misleading, therefore it's irrelevent.

Ok so here we go. One of the reasons Mason is so much better is because he catches the ball at 68% right?[/quote]

From [b]the same QB[/b].

[quote]Here are a few other percentages from some of the top WRs in the league.

Steve Smith(Car) 63%
Reggie Wayne 64%
Larry Fitz 66%
Roddy White 62%
Antonio Byrant 59%
Brandon Marshall 59%
Santiono Holmes 50%
Calvin Johnson 53%
Randy Moss 58%
Terrell Owens 49%
DWayne Bowe 55%
Braylon Edwards 43%

Now all of these WR aren't great but some of them are in the top 5-10 in league. Smith, Fitz, Johnson, Marshall, Wayne, Bryant and White were all in the top 10 in the league. Now Mason is a great WR but his production doesn't come close to some of these guys. [/quote]

Fair enough, he is 35, isn't big or fast, isnt a big play banger and played on a run first team. He isn't a huge stat guy, his ability stems from clutch possession catches and 1st down catches, he keeps us alive.

The difference between Mason and all these WRs is the QB is different, Mase and Clayton are thrown to by the same guy.

[quote]Mason caught the ball at 68%, does that make him better then an Randy Moss who only caught 58% of the passes thrown his way? Hell many people here wanted Marshall even before Mason's retirement, he only caught 59% of the passes thrown his way, do you think that guy could help us out?[/quote]

The percentage doesnt really apply because Marshall had a different QB, but thats still slightly better than Clayton, even with the drops. Marshalls production and ability is different, he doesnt have Claytons hands but does everything else better.

[quote]Brandon Marshall was given 160 chances to catch 95 balls. That means he caught 6 out of 10 attempts thrown to him. He dropped 14 passes last year. So if he caught 6 of 10 and Mason caught 5 of 7, does that mean Marshall tracked the ball better then Mason last year? Marshall had 95 catches Mason had 80 does that means Marshall has better hands then Mason? Marshall was thrown to 160 times, Mason 117. Does that mean Marshall was open far more then Mason which would suggest that he runs better routes then Mason? Josh Reed of the Bills caught the ball at 71%, does that mean he's a better WR then Mason. [/quote]

You have to read into it more, Marshall can't be pressed or pushed off his route because hes simply too big and physical Mase/Clayton have to use their quickness/routes to beat coverage. So while Marshall might not have the same hands or route running he physically beats coverages. They also have different QBs.

I wouldn't say Reed is better after one good season, I sat with the Mason/Clayton percentages because they are cosistent over 2+ seasons on different sources, and get thrown to by the same guy.



[quote]Ok i told myself i wouldn't get involved in this whole Mark Clayton thing anymore because Camp was starting and his actions would speak the loudest, so this is the last time(i know u guys are sick of me).[/quote]

I actually like you a lot, its just playful banter and I hope you don't stop posting.

[ravens world]

Man i hate clayton why did they draft him but any ways if claytons our number 1 we are in trouble cause hes not good at all he just cant be our number 1. Mason please come back !

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

We can't really judge the guy until we seem him play as our number one receiver.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' date='28 July 2009 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1248762351' post='210784']
We can't really judge the guy until we seem him play as our number one receiver.
[/quote]

Sure we can. He couldn't even handle playing against mediocre CB's as our number two reciever, things will only get worse from there.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ravens world' date='28 July 2009 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1248759713' post='210777']
Man i hate clayton why did they draft him but any ways if claytons our number 1 we are in trouble cause hes not good at all he just cant be our number 1. Mason please come back !
[/quote]

I was glad we drafted him. I was sure that he'd be a very, very good WR....things just dont work out sometimes.

[BloodRaven]

Truth is flynismo, [b]if[/b] Clayton breaks out we have to man up and eat our words. I'd rather be proved wrong than right.