Jaybirds

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Posts posted by Jaybirds

  1. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    57 minutes ago, -Truth- said:

    If you don't mind me commenting on one point otherwise and just that one point, I've looked into the tape via NFL Game Pass and I don't know that I can agree with the assessment of the Boston Globe that LaFell didn't drop a single pass outside of that game against the Jets. He had a couple of throws in Week 13 and Week 17 that bounced off of the mitts. I didn't have enough time to scope out any games past that point as I'm currently at work, but I figured sharing some clarity could aid your debate.

    Sorry, I can see how this might have been confusing.  The links I posted, Boston Globe ran with the headline that he had six in one game, against the Jets (looks like his first game back from injury).   NBC and a few other stats links (google search, checked all the top links)  had him down for 6 drops all last season.   If both are true, then he was perfect in all the other games. 

    It really looks like the major media is sharing a data source, and that data source has him down for six all season.  I do think Boston Globe knows how to cover a local game, so I trust the six in one game. At the very least it's safe to say at least half were from one game, I think we can agree on that.  But I've already posted credible sources that say it was six in one game and six for the season. 

    This is speculation:  is it possible those follies from week 13 and 17 were considered incomplete instead of drop?  Just trying to figure out how they might count into NBC's seasonal statistics. 

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  2. Posted · Report post

    10 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    I don't actually have a PFF subscription, but @-Truth- will probably be more than happy to talk about his drop rate when gets off work. 

    I was just looking at free articles, but I know Truth has a subscription and would be able to give a much more complete listing of his drop percentage.

    Two things on the sources- PFF is pretty much the accepted norm for any advanced metrics here (you can find multiple players reference it here in this game and our very own site writers use it. Hell, I've even read that teams will reference it, likely for advanced metrics like catches allowed and yardage allowed by corners).

    Secondly, I would trust PFF more than the Boston Globe. PFF reviews the game footage of each player individually, probably using All-22 game footage. The Boston Globe sports writers are probably at the games and taking notes to write an article as soon as the game ends, or closely to the end.

    I'm not trolling you by saying LaFell won't do his best work in the slot. Other people have said this as well.

    If other people have said it as well, then you should have no problem backing up your assertions with anything:  stats, assessments, scouting reports, SOMETHING.  

    You don't even have the data you're citing the most.  I'm sorry, but there's no credibility to your words, and you've had hours to provide some. 

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  3. Posted · Report post

    3 minutes ago, -Truth- said:

    I wish I could be of more help. Unfortunately, PFF has considerably stripped down its product for the average customer. Signature statistics like the drop rate are no longer available.There are some articles floating around with the statistics from seasons past, and they do post articles on their page at times with their signature figures, but we can't access them personally.

    Yeah, I have all the PFF subscriptions and I'm not finding the data he's citing.  That's part of why I don't believe a word he's saying. 

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  4. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    23 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    Drops are fairly subjective, but PFF (a source I'll trust quite a bit, and a very generous one on not counting drops) had him at 5. They had him at 9 for the season going into week 16, I guess it was. He was not perfect on the season.

    And just because a player can do something doesn't mean it utilizes their skills to the best of their ability. Marshall Yanda CAN play right tackle, but we notice a dropoff in his play from that at guard.

    LaFell CAN play the slot, but the drops go up and his catches go down. 

    I'd hardly be worried about completion rate because that will also track uncatchable passes that are out of bounds, overthrown, etc.

    I've only been worried about Boyd because you made an incorrect statement and I only jumped in to talk about Boyd, not LaFell. The statement I replied to only had talked about Boyd, and that's what I went with.

    I would never reference Madden as a legit source and now you're just looking silly.

    I'm pretty sure it's one guy who makes the grades, so it's not even a committee, and this is the same game that at one point gave Yanda like a 69 toughness rating.

    Two sources say he was perfect outside of that Jets game.  So you're wrong about that.  I guess PFF's counting isn't the accepted norm, sorry.   I have no idea what to say about someone who doesn't trust the Boston Globe to cover a Pats game. 

    Please show that the drops go up and the catches go down.  Or if you prefer, that the drop rate goes up and the catch rate goes down.   I'm not going to just take your word for it. 

    If you're only here to talk about Boyd then please A) shut up about LaFell and B ) stop wasting my time trolling about a guy not on my team. 

    Okay, I'll drop the Madden ratings.  I've actually spent some time researching their methodology, and it's a staff not just one guy.   But if that's not a common source here, then I won't use it.  My point stands without it:  I can't find any data that shows LaFell's hands are really that bad.  Two bad years since 2011, and one of those years was one bad game.  Unless you can provide a lot more actual facts, I'm fine saying the hands aren't an issue.  

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  5. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    35 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    What do you want me to do to prove it to you? I've watched him for three years, showed you two article snipits from the team itself, and there's three people telling you he's best in the slot. I can show you where Matt Miller said he's the best slot receiver in the draft if you want. I can show you a Cinci Jungle article where the author says he'll start in the slot. What do you want to prove it?

    You have literally referenced an article from before Boyd was drafted and. Rotoworld writers opinion as proof.

    Those numbers are off, just so we're clear. 

    PFF had him at 9 for last year by December 15th, so there's a good chance the other numbers outside of 2014 are wrong.

    And to be clear, no one cares if he dropped less passes and here's why:

    If player A drops two balls on ten targets and player B drops 4 on 100 targets, who really had better hands?

    LaFell was in the bottom 20 of drop percentage (in a negative way) for his entire time in Carolina.

    Try to remember hands aren't all there is to playing wide receiver (it's how Will Fuller and Corey Coleman, the two highest drop percentages of the first rounders, I believe) are the first two taken. Slot receivers are significantly devalued in the NFL. Everyone wants that big, long outside receiver like Calvin Johnson or Brandon Marshall.

    Also, he dropped 5 passes in the Jets game, not 6. And as rmw pointed out, it's not just about drops; it's about the bobbles and the double clutches with LaFell.

    Those numbers came from the link I already posted.

    Edit:  NBC confirmed six drops last year.
    http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

    As for the Jets game:  
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/10/25/brandon-lafell-answers-for-his-six-drops/k7iZdt22hVWJryLCx87VlO/story.html

    But I'm sure the Boston Globe wasn't paying attention.  

    Questions were asked about his dropped balls, so I posted stats about his dropped balls.  I'm not sure why that's confusing.   Yes, his annual rate is bad, especially last year.  But AGAIN, if you take out that one game then he was perfect.  All the data I could find regarding his Panthers years says he was a little better than his teammates.  But hey, if you have better numbers then share them instead of just making assertions. That would have helped this whole time. 

    Hands aren't the only part, they're just the only part anyone disagrees about.  So that's what we're talking about.  I am a little worried about his completion rate, but there's other guys with 50% on the outside that are long gone by now. 

    I do not care about Boyd.  I can't put it any plainer than that.  I saw an article about Cincy considering LaFell as a slot receiver, I was intrigued by the idea and looked into him further as a slot receiver.  He can play slot, he has played slot.  He has played slot in an offense similar to mine with my QB.   None of that has squat to do with Boyd.  Stop talking about Boyd. 

    I know it's a video game.  But as far as researching players, Madden does a good job of assessing stats separate from the team situation. 

    LaFell, 2015: 
    Catching skills (83)
    Catch-in-Traffic stats (88)

    LaFell, 2016:
    Catching skills (88)
    Catch-in-Traffic stats (92)

    Hands, drops, bobbles... whatever you want to count, it doesn't seem to be an actual problem.  It's probably a reputation from some memorable games.  I can't find any data to support that it's a problem. 

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  7. Posted · Report post

    1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    That "article" about him not being the man for the job was actually just the opinion of a writer from Rotoworld, not the Bengals or any person affiliated with the team. I'll be the first to say he probably stands vastly alone in that opinion.

    What did he play in Carolina? Oh, right, the slot. What did he play in New England? The boundary. 

    So what changed between the two settings that his drop percentage dropped signifcantly once he got to New England? 

    I suppose we could argue Brady is a better quarterback, which I don't disagree with, but Cam just won an MVP, so this isn't like he was playing with a scrub or a backup quarterback. 

    The Patriots put him in a position on the outside where he'd take less shots over the middle and it worked out really well for him.

    I honestly think them saying he could play anywhere is coach speak. I won't accuse you of doing this, but many people lambast Harbaugh for publically speaking out and praising players for all they can do, but when another team does it, it must be legitimate.

    Hands are absolutely something you can track coming out of college. Not sure if you watched OBJ in college, but when he made some of the catches he made, did it surprise you? When Torrey Smith had questionable hands in Baltimore, did it surprise you?

    No one is saying you owe us an explanation, but this entire discussion between you and I started when you disagreed with Crush saying Boyd wasn't suited for the slot and then told me the team disagreed with him being a slot receiver.

    It's actually kinda funny that you'd say you're talking about LaFell because this entire discussion started about Boyd, not LaFell. 

    Also, I have to ask, did you watch any of Boyd in college or really know how to judge a receiver? If you say no, that's fine, but you're spouting off things about him that aren't true. 

    I was talking about LaFell.  I was talking about an article that said the Bengals were considering him as slot, and that's where I got the idea, then my research confirmed it again with the Panthers and Pats using him to fill holes, which is all I need. 

    You and Crush brought up Floyd, even when I was still talking about LaFell.  The derailment started with you guys, not me. 

    You're spouting off things that you aren't backing up at all.  And you're questioning me?    Laughable. 

    Here's more of that "Research" you like to ignore: 
    2015:  6 drops, all in one game.
    2014:  2 drops.  best year
    2013:   6 drops.  Same as Sanu, one fewer than Green, same as SSSr. 
    2012:  3 drops.  Half as many as SSSr, Gronk or Lloyd in NE, same as Olsen
    2011:  2 drops.  SSSr had 7, Naanee had 5 in Carolina, Olsen had 3. 

    Aside from one game last year, he usually has some of the best hands on his team, or the team he was about to go to. 
    The hands hype isn't real compared to his peers, who all went way before him in our draft. 

     

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  8. Posted · Report post

    2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    I'm not ignoring the ones from the team. If you can find me a direct quote from team officials or the team writers that says anything other than Boyd being viewed as the slot receiver, then I'll be more inclined to listen.

    Fact of the matter is Carolina didn't want him after cutting Steve Smith and having Marvin McNutt and Tavarres King, at the time, as the top two receivers. That should say something. 

    Personally, I'd put stock into the NE years considering he had his best year as a pro there. 

    And if you're going to argue having Edelman made him an outside receiver, then I can just counter that the Panthers only had outside receivers (which is true) and needed a slot receiver.

    I'm talking about how the Bengals will be using Boyd in the slot. That's what I've been trying to get at this entire time. 

    And no, the slot receiver might as well be a starter. Even if you want a run heavy team, most teams in the NFL will go three wide at least 60% of the time, sometimes more. You're third receiver will get significant snaps, making him a valuable piece of the offense.

    And I'm not ranting about him being a backup. This entire time I'm trying to help you understand that LaFell will likely be an outside receiver, given his overall skill set and questionable hands. Tyler Boyd, on the other hand, has vice grip hands and the best route running in the class, but lacks requisite athletecism to play outside, so he projects best in the slot.

    This is all we've been trying to say- that the Bengals are going to use Boyd in the slot and LaFell outside. 

    Esentially with Boyd, think Jarvis Landry type. He's going to be the slot receiver for the Bengals.

    I didn't draft Boyd, so I'm not trying to talk about him at all.  I am trying to talk about LaFell, the guy I actually drafted.  But that seems difficult for you to do. 
    But if you insist, I already quoted an article explaining how Boyd might not be the guy for the job, it's linked in LaFell's Rotoworld page.  Sometimes you have to read more than one headline. 

    YOU seem to be disregarding the New England years, especially his best season.  The quote you posted about him being a back-up caliber player was when he was a free agent, right?  So that quote is from right before the 900 yards, 7 touchdowns and only 2 drops.  So which is it?  Do you want me to regard his best season, or the article that was dead wrong about his ability? 

    Yes, Carolina used him in the slot when they had outside guys.  And yes, New England used him on the outside when they had a slot receiver.  Two teams with more Super Bowls under their belt than me both moved him to where they needed help.  So I did the same thing:   I put him where I needed help.  Apparently, the professionals think he has that kind of adaptability.  Which is probably why the Bengals were going to try him everywhere when they first signed him, even if they don't need to now.   "Research" 

    Boyd's hands were absolutely dreadful in one game last season and perfect in all the rest.  I'm okay calling that a fluke, either on his part or Brady's.  And you're saying a guy with zero NFL snaps has better hands?  I'll believe it when I see it.  I haven't yet, at least not on this level. 

    Panthers were a run-first offense with Cam as their QB, and they had LaFell in the slot.  I'm a run-first offense with Cam as my QB.   I don't really owe anyone an explanation for something that's already happened in real life. 

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  9. Posted · Report post

    "Research"    

    LaFell wasn't even the worst on the Pats last year for dropped balls, Edelman was.  Ironically, their slot receiver.   LaFell had 6 drops for the season.  He also had six drops Week 7 against the Jets.  So he was fine every other game but that one.   And look at the other names around him:  they're all long gone at this point in the draft.  He's one year removed from 900+ yards, 7 TDs, and only 2 drops.   

    http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/

     

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  10. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    Errrr, actually, there's some back from the day he had his surgery that said he would probably miss a few weeks as the timeline was "3-4 months on recovery" and one written in June that basically confirmed he'd miss week one. Now it's just an extent of how long, but we knew he was going to miss time back on May 25th.

    Sorry, top two targets was a poor choice, but I meant two of their receiving targets. I had clarified as such in the previous post. They were in need of two new receivers is essentially what I was trying to say.

    Even Carolina didn't want him back in 2014 and that's when they had like Marvin McNutt and Tavarres King as their top two receivers prior to the draft and they still did not bring him back. He wasn't good in the slot.

    "Free agent WR Brandon LaFell is visiting the Patriots Wednesday.

    Tom Brady should be bubbling over with frustration. The Patriots failed to pony up the cash for Wes Welker last season and appear poised to follow the same path with Julian Edelman this year. LaFell is another backup-caliber outside receiver that wouldn't be an upgrade on the likes of Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell Thompkins. LaFell's best work comes as a run blocker."

    That's from when he was a free agent.

    And Boyd was pretty much lauded as a slot receiver by the WR coach and then the team writer basically confirmed that the team sees Boyd as nothing but a slot receiver for them this year. 

    Again, I watched three years of Tyler Boyd in college. Did you? He fits best in the slot and that's where he'll play. That's all we're trying to say.

    Again, I'll repeat the part that you insist on ignoring:  ONE article says Boyd is locked in for the Bengals.  EVERYTHING ELSE says the whole unit is a work in progress.  

    ONE article says that Boyd works in the slot, and ONE article says run and catch isn't really his thing.   But you're ignoring that, too. 

    The article was wrong:  they did keep Edelman, their slot receiver.  That changes the depth chart.  And I've already stated why I'm not putting too much weight on the New England years.   But you're ignoring that too. 

    I don't need you watch Boyd's college games to talk about Brandon LaFell.  But I do need you to read what I type.  It doesn't look like you are. 

    You're ranting that I'm using a "back-up caliber" player in a back-up role.  I.... sigh. 
     

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  11. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    14 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    Well, considering the last article was actually from July 6th and Eifert's surgery was announced May 25th, it wasn't before the surgery was announced...

    I'm not angry; I'm just cautioning your "research". You pulled an article from well before training even started, but everything I'm showing you had come during or after OTA's, rookie camp, voluntary camps, etc. 

    We're just trying to show you that Boyd is pretty much being penciled in as the slot receiver for the team. He's a second round rookie on a team that desperately needs receivers after losing their top two targets, so there isn't really anything stopping him from being a significant part of an offense that probably plays around 60%+ of its snaps in three wide.

    No one is saying it's a terrible pick; we're just pointing out that the Bengals don't view him as their best slot option at this point in time, the Patriots didn't, and he has hands issues that don't lend themselves to the slot. 

    No one is sitting here saying he's a bad receiver; just that the slot may not be the best fit for him.

    The articles Rotoworld posted about Eifert actually missing games next season are all dated after the Boyd article you're relying on so much.  The most recent one describes the receiving corps as "in flux".   "Research".  

    They didn't lose their top two targets.    Green was first, then Jones, Eifert, Bernard, and Sanu fifth.  Which is why the Eifert injury could really shake things up further.   "Research".  

    The Pats didn't use him in the slot because they already have a slot receiver their QB is comfortable with.  My QB has experience with this guy in the slot.  I realize that health and age are a factor here, perhaps even more than the drops.  But my offense is much closer to Carolina's than New England's so I'm weighing those years a little bit more. "Research"

    Boyd is penciled in based on one article.  All the rest say things are kinda up in the air. Considering preseason hasn't even started yet, I'm not taking it as gospel truth that he's starting 16 games in the slot.  I do think he's going to see a lot of catches this year, no doubt about it.   But I'm cool with my decision.  Shockingly, that's why I made it.     

     

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  12. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    9 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    We're simply trying to explain to you that Tyler Boyd is going to be the Bengals slot receiver, not Brandon LaFell...

    I'm not ignoring that you "dug deeper", but you did it a full month before the draft, before any training had actually begun. Steve Biscotti endorsed Eugene Monroe as the Ravens starting left tackle, then the Ravens drafted Stanley and Monroe was out of a job. What someone says in March before any other moves are made is hardly worth using as a viable source. 

    Consider the Bengals had lost their boundary receiver (Marvin Jones) and slot receiver (Mohammed Sanu), so of course they were going to say they planned to play LaFell everywhere. Then, they drafted a better fit for the slot and it pushed LaFell back to the outside.

    All Crush and I were trying to say is that Boyd will be in the slot, LaFell on the outside. 


    You're quoting an article written before Eifert's surgery was announced, before a rookie started his first preseason, and you're angry I'm not giving enough credence to article dates.   Ooooookay.   

    There's no question both guys are going to see a lot of snaps.  But if Boyd falters, or someone else emerges for the outside, LaFell is ahead of Boyd on the depth chart.  I have no idea how you think that translates into Never Playing Slot This Year.  

    And again:  this was my second-to-last pick on a guy who won't even be starting for me.   I was right the first time, you're just wasting my time. 

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  13. Posted · Edited by Jaybirds · Report post

    3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    According to Bengals.com's Geoff Hobson, the team envisions second-round pick Tyler Boyd as a slot receiver "no matter what."

    Bengals OC Ken Zampese expects second-round WR Tyler Boyd to open this season in the slot.

    Oh, and just so you know, that article about "playing him all over" was from March 31st, about a month before they drafted Tyler Boyd, a player the coaches are locking into the slot. Look at the date of an article when considering how viable it is now.

    *  I built a run-first team
    *  My second-to-last pick was a veteran receiver with slot experience.  In the few instances I'd use a slot receiver, I said it would be him.  
    *   You're ranting about a rookie with no experience who I didn't even draft. 
    *  I actually dug deeper into my research.  But you're just ignoring that.  Like the fact my quarterback used this receiver in the slot already. 

    I can't help it if you're having a bad day.  Your nonsense isn't worth my time. 

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  14. Posted · Report post

    1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

    All that says is that he's going to start over Boyd (which I didn't debate), but the Bengals WR Coach said Boyd will play the slot and their team writers say he's locked into the slot. I don't know why you're trying to argue this. Boyd is a slot receiver.

    You're skipping the part where they say they're going to play LaFell all over, including slot, that he's above Boyd in the depth chart, and that Boyd is going to have to impress because " Boyd is a finesse receiver with limited run-after-catch skills whose fit in the slot is questionable."   There's more than one article on the page, I considered them all.  

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  16. Posted · Report post

    Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

    I started going to Tech at the same time Boyd started at Pitt and took a particular interest in him during his strong true freshman season.

    The slot is where Boyd fits the best and absolutely will be playing for the Bengals.

    Well, people in Cincinnati disagree with that assessment.  Not sure what else to tell you. 

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  19. Posted · Report post

    1 minute ago, Mt. Crushmore said:

    You still hadn't made up your skipped selection by the time you would've been on the clock after @allblackraven's selection, so you were automatically skipped, which was skip #2. 

    Considering how fast we turn the corner at that part of the draft, that's kinda ridiculous.  Looking at the time stamps, I would have had less than an hour to make up that pick. 

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