BillyD

You do realize that you unknowingly just said that it's not the coaches fault right? You literally just said its the players fault and its his job to correct it. Here are the direct quotes from your statement above that prove this:

 

1. "Did a coach ever teach you the rules and how to play within the rules, or did he just teach you "technique" and tell you to figure out the rest?"

 

Why yes, actually, coaches did teach me the rules. And when I violated them, they told me what rules I violated (if I didn't already know, which most of the time I did), and I took responsibility for it. Notice at no point in time did a reasonable human being turn around to their coach and say "well, coach, you didn't teach me that rule and I'm blaming you for my own stupidity". When you blame coaching for this, that's what you are saying... that the coach committed the penalty. I know you're smart enough to know that Jernigan knows he hit the guy late. At that moment, its 100% on him. Its 100% on him to correct it, and 100% on him to make sure it doesn't happen again. The coach would be the problem if he didn't inform the player of the rule, but that's clearly not the case here.

 

2. "You hear all the time about players who have a certain reputation, maybe they're considered a "dirty" player, or maybe just undisciplined or "bone headed", or whatever you want to call it, all of a sudden they go to a team with a guy that can coach and he's a superstar."

 

Honestly, I can't even think of one. Dirty players tend to be dirty players on every team they play for. Suh isn't playing any different in Miami than he is in Detroit. James Harrison didn't play any different in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh again, etc. I'd be very interested in hearing the names of some of these players who were allegedly "dirty" on one team and turned into choir boys on another. I would almost guarantee that, if there are actually any, it had nothing to do with coaching.

 

3. "But when they happen repeatedly there is a coaching/discipline issue, and it's up to the coaching staff to figure out how to correct it."

 

Coaching issue vs discipline issue are two completely separate things. How exactly do you "figure out how to correct" Jernigan from hitting a guy late? You point to the film and say "don't do this"? Is that really what you consider "coaching"? Bench the guy for doing it repeatedly? Might work, that's a discipline tactic more than a coaching tactic, because the only thing the player learns is the negative reinforcement of doing it, not necessarily the reasons why he shouldn't do it. John has no issue with discipline, as these boards will gladly tell you. If you ask many people, he cuts players and doesn't play players he doesn't like, so discipline doesn't seem to be a coaching issue there.

 

4. "Why the heck do you think they do film study and review game tape?  Just to work on "technique"?  Tell the players they have to cover or tackle better?  They also review all the penalties and correct where the player went wrong, if they did commit a penalty.  That's also why the league sends out rule changes, etc each season, so the coaches can go over them with the team."

 

So you think the coaching technique to prevent penalties is to pull them up on film, point to them, and say "don't do that"? Wow, great coaching there. And when it happens again... then what? Can't blame that on coaching, because he did precisely what you wanted him to. I guess they'll just go back to the game film the next week, point at it again, and say "don't do that".

 

Why do you literally think the most common coaching response to these situations is benching the player? Because there is practically nothing else the coach can do. The game film talking to ain't working, and whatever other bogus "coaching techniques" you think they are using doesn't work. A penalty like Jernigan's is 100% mental for him, there isn't another person on the planet that has any impact on that decision making other than him. If he doesn't realize what he is doing is hurting the team, than John won't play him. That's the MAXIMUM coaching that can be done. I'd argue that's not really coaching. That's called punishment. Its called I can't solve this problem for you, and I can't trust you to do the right thing, so you aren't playing for me.

1)  Right.  The coaches told you how to play the game.  And if you failed at that, i.e., made stupid penalties and stupid mistakes, there were consequences for those actions.  That's the point here.  Repeated penalties are a result of bad technique ( coaches job to teach good technique) and, if repeated consistently, the inability of the player to perform, possibly resulting in removing that player from the field of play (again, a coach's JOB to identify and correct, whether that be through TEACHING initially, and possibly further consequences if the issue continues).  These items are not mutually exclusive.  Like anything else in life, there is a process.  If you want to react to individual incidents on a one off basis, you're missing the point.

2)  I concede on this point that sloppy or undisciplined play is a better way to put it as opposed to "dirty players".  That's a misstatement on my part and you're right.  Dirty players tend to stay just that, dirty players, i.e. Haynesworth, Suh, ol' Bill Romanowski.  But sloppy, undisciplined play can and has been corrected.

3)  I disagree.  They are not mutually exclusive in my opinion.  Part of coaching is discipline.  Period.  Unless you want the inmates running the asylum.

4)  Again, that is part of coaching.  Benching a player is part of coaching.  Part of coaching is doing what you can to put your best players, i.e. team, on the field that will give you the best opportunity to win.  If a player's repeated stupidity costs the team, as Jernigan's stupidity has done at least 2 of the 3 times he has been flagged for personal fouls this season (the one in the Raiders game kept their game winning drive alive, and the one last week kept the KC drive alive and put them up 7 when we could have gotten a jump on them and at least kept it a game).  I guess with your approach Jernigan, who has shown no recognition that what he did was a boneheaded play, is supposed to police himself?  Say, "Gee coach, that was stupid of me, I'm taking myself out of the game now".  I guess in your world he is, and the coach is just supposed to throw up his hands and say, "Oh well, nothing I can do".

I disagree with your view of this topic.  Except for your second point.  My bad, there.  Good talk, though.

I agree... what does that have to do with coaching?

And for the record...lining up offsides is dumber in my eyes. I can't even think of a viable reason for it to happen. At least Jernigan might partially think he's in bounds.

It has EVERYTHING to do with coaching!  When you hear people talk about discipline, about how few or how many penalties a team receives, it's a reflection of the coach.  Did you ever play sports?  Did a coach ever teach you the rules and how to play within the rules, or did he just teach you "technique" and tell you to figure out the rest?  You hear all the time about players who have a certain reputation, maybe they're considered a "dirty" player, or maybe just undisciplined or "bone headed", or whatever you want to call it, all of a sudden they go to a team with a guy that can coach and he's a superstar.  Mistakes are going to happen, yes.  But when they happen repeatedly there is a coaching/discipline issue, and it's up to the coaching staff to figure out how to correct it.  Why the heck do you think they do film study and review game tape?  Just to work on "technique"?  Tell the players they have to cover or tackle better?  They also review all the penalties and correct where the player went wrong, if they did commit a penalty.  That's also why the league sends out rule changes, etc each season, so the coaches can go over them with the team.  I mean, come on man. 

This just points out how impossible it is to be a defender in today's NFL and not break one of its myriad rules. Hit a guy who catches a pass? Even if you led with your shoulder pad, half the time it's a defenseless receiver penalty. Swat a receiver's arm when he pushes off you? Pass interference. Hit the QB a microsecond too late, whether it's after he slides or he runs out of bounds or he throws the ball (in each case after the defender has committed to the hit)? Personal foul.

Apples and oranges.  There have been some VERY questionable calls that have gone against the Ravens this season, no doubt.  This was not one of them.  Unless Alex Smith can change direction in mid flight as he's already 3 yards out of bounds, there is no way he was continuing down the sidelines.  Jernigan was coming full speed and launched himself out of bounds and nailed Smith...AFTER Smith had landed out of bounds.  It was just a boneheaded play, plain and simple.  Aggression is good, in a controlled fashion.  Stupidity is not.

It was his second personal foul of the year. The first one was last week. 

 

So by your own solution above, he shouldn't be removed from the lineup, because it hasn't happened more than twice.

 

I'd also like to know precisely what a coach does to "correct the mistake". I'm asking for specifics... what exactly does a coach do in practice to show a player how to not line up offsides, or how to not hit a player who is already out of bounds?

 

I mean its easy to say "just correct it", but I'd like to know specifically how, because I frankly don't see it. Correcting a technique issue with tackling, or coverage, or throwing motion, or handling the football, etc. are all thinks I'd expect a coach to have the ability to show and correct.

 

What coaching technique, outside of saying "don't do it" do you use to stop a player from lining up offsides?

Obviously, you're not a coach.  Or you'd know the answer to your question.  Also, Jernigan had a personal foul in the Raiders game that kept their game winning drive alive.  That's at least 3 this season, 2 in the past 2 weeks that have been quite costly.   Let me pose it to you this way - If you're running a business and an employee makes a mistake, what do you do?  Maybe counsel the employee?  Provide training?  If the mistake continues, what do you do?  Maybe some more training, remedial or otherwise?  If it continues, depending on the severity of the mistake, you might consider demoting or firing the person.  To suggest that a manager (which is what a coach is) has no role in correcting employee mistakes (which is what a player is) is pretty ridiculous.  But hey, you have your opinion, I have mine.

Dumb play. Goes to coaching, once again. I realize some on the boards have said you can only coach players so much, they are ultimately responsible for their actions on the field, such as lining up in the neutral zone on multiple plays. The fact of the matter is that is precisely the job of the coaches. To review film, to correct mistakes, and if they happen again, to review and correct again, and if they continue to happen, to remove that person from the line up. This was not, by far, Jerniagan's first personal foul. And he had been benched previously for stupid plays. Ray Lewis used to say it perfectly. You play between the lines and between the whistles. That's it. If you can't figure that out, Timmy, you're in the wrong business.

Well, its not really lucky, because if this team were 10-4, he doesn't call a fake punt in that spot.

 

Frankly, I'd argue we are better off not punting at all most of the time at this point. We've got far more things that we could be working on, such as red zone defense.

With a unit that may be totally different next season?  We don't even know who will be coming back in 2016, who we will draft, who we may pick up in free agency, etc.  For that matter, if we're lucky, we may even have a new DC with an entirely different scheme next season.  Not sure I buy this argument.

In general, I agree. 

 

Though I'd argue at this point that the risk is virtually nothing. After all, what's the worst case scenario... we lose another game? 

In the words of Herman Edwards:  YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!  I like the aggressive approach that Harbs has in general.  But that play call was just a head scratcher.  We were in the game at that point.  I get your point, what's the difference if we lose another game?  I totally agree on that.  I'm just saying that in any circumstance, that play was, in my opinion, dumb.  That's all.

In that down and distance, it's a stupid call, IMHO. A QB sneak on 4th and 1 on your own 25 is a far cry from a fake punt run by the punter on 4th and 9 from your own 25. A QB lining up under center and trying to pick up 1 yard is an entirely different scenario from a punter lining up 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage and having to run like 19 yards to pick up the 1st down. The risk/reward just doesn't make any sense.

My 5 Takeaways: 1) Ditch the yellow mustard pants. The equipment manager should go on the list of people on the hot seat rolling those uniforms out this week. 2) Kamar Aiken deserves a spot on this team moving forward. Not as a number one, but he has earned a role on this squad. 3) While I realize desperate times call for desperate measures, the fake punt from deep in our own territory on 4th and 9 was one of the dumbest play calls I have ever seen. 4) Watching Schaub and now Clausen just makes me appreciate Flacco even more than I did previously over the past 8 seasons. 5) This season cannot end soon enough.

Once we dump Monroe and Pitta we will have some more dead money next year, but we are almost out of that hole, and we will be picking in the top 5 at the beginning of every round this year.  This years draft in going to be a cornerstone for us going forward.  The most important draft for us in a long time.

Good call.  We will, but it will be a heck of a lot less than the 24 or 25 mil it is at now.  Looking forward to being out of that hole.  And locking up some impact players both in the draft and free agency.

See these injuries all the time. I think the playing surfaces have something to do with it, as well as the lack of contact and the focus on strength solely as opposed to strength and flexibility. It has hit our Ravens hard this season, so I'm glad they're going to a natural surface at the Bank next season, as well as glad they're doing a review of their methods.

I've learned a lot, too. Don't let all your talent walk out the door.  Almost 25 mil in dead money this year does not help.  Luckily next year that drops to around 200K.  Hopefully we'll be able to lock up some young talent and maybe bring in an impact vet or two.

Well, all I can say is that this is what the bottom of the barrel feels and look like.

I don't like Pees bend but don't break style, but I don't think he has the talent he needs on the defense. missed tackles, dropped picks, inability to cover , lack of pass rush has do with lack of talent on the defense.

As a coach you put your players in a position to succeed.  We have J .Smith and Webby as our corners,  Each have excelled in the past.  This season they are being burnt on a continual basis.  Will Hill is a decent SS, and I think Lewis has improved at FS.  The pass rush has been non-existent, and our LBs have not done a good job of covering underneath routes.  At the end of the day we have heard all season long about technique, have to play the technique, communication, guys are out of position...At this point these guys have been coaching this bunch since July.  If the players are still making the same mistakes sounds to me like the coaches aren't doing their jobs, and I believe that is a huge part of our problems.  On offense as well.  We have not committed to the run at all this season, we seem to run a swing pass on every play regardless of down and distance, even when Joe and SSS were healthy.  How can Jimmy Claussen (Jimmy Claussen, for Pete's sake!) hit Aiken on back to back plays for like 60 yards to end the 1st half last week, but during regular in-game scenarios we rarely, if ever, push the ball down the field?  To me, this team is lost, and it starts at the top.  I'm not taking the excuse that the talent isn't there.  I've seen far too many teams with less than stellar talent overall have big time success.  I've also seen plenty of teams stacked with talent "drop a deuce in the bed" so to speak.  And speaking of talent, I've seen Brown play very well over the past couple of weeks, and a couple of other guys, such as Clay (the punt returner) play well.  Why weren't these guys seeing the field before?  We pick up Givens and he's done next to nothing, yet Brownie has caught some big time passes.  Leads me to question the coaches' ability to evaluate players and talent.  At the end of the day, great coaches find a way to win, and they certainly don't deflect blame.  Either you can, or you can't. And if you can't, then go away.

It was bad. Gee, John. Really? Thanks Captain Obvious. We lack shut down talent, so we can't man up. Webby, as much as I love him, got burned in one-on-one situations continually, and the DC just continually leaves him on an island. Let's not forget against Miami it was Webby that got beat to the inside on the sole TD pass, no help over the top. It's pretty frustrating that we have a lack of playmakers and, IMHO, a lack of coaching ability. I kept saying over the past several weeks when everyone was lauding the D, look who we are playing...not exactly the upper echelon of the NFL. And with that said, we went 2-2 in our last 4...losing to Miami and Jacksonville. It's been an ugly season folks. Not sure what the silver lining is, or if there even is one. Time will tell, I suppose.

Agree, agree, agree with Dumervil. Let's just take the three most egregious calls that went against the Ravens this season: Number one - Missing the false start on Jacksonville allowing them to win the game. Number two - Phantom offensive PI on Brown against Miami, took a TD off the board in a game we lost by 2 points. Third - Phantom defensive PI on Will Hill against Oakland on a pick that would have sealed the game. That call allowed Oakland to continue their drive and score the go ahead TD. That would potentially be 3 wins, putting us at 7-5 instead of 4-8 and in the playoff hunt. You could add a few more, like the no whistle on the Chris Johnson play against Arizona, but I'm just naming the top 3 in my mind that I believe had a definite impact on the outcome of the game. Not saying we would go far in the playoffs with all the injuries and lack of talent, just pointing out that the Ravens have had a Murphy's Law season to end all Murphy's law seasons - tons of talent on IR, bad turf issues (see the SF game), and bad calls by the officials. As frustrating as this season has been, I have to give our team a ton of credit. We have been in every game, against good teams and bad teams. We will see how we do in this last stretch, but I have to say this squad has a bright future.

Jeff who?

Condolences and prayers for the James family.

On the balance of run vs. pass. Given who we have to throw to, defenses are absolutely stacked in the box. They are daring us to throw. You can either run into a brick wall or take what they are giving you.

 

At this point ... whatever - we have to see what WR we have who can reliably get separation and catch the ball and the answer is coming back "nobody". 

I don't buy it.  We do have guys that can catch.  If we didn't, Joe wouldn't be throwing for 300+ yards a game.  Additionally, we're talking about the same backfield and line that ran the heck out of the ball last season.  Granted, we had Torrey and SSS, so the passing game was more robust.  But you hear it over and over on Sundays...you can't give up on the run.  I just question the fact that we pass, pass, pass, a lot of intermediate routes and passes to the flats, and the defense has to adjust and generally does...but then we might run once or twice in a drive and just go back to the pass.  There needs to be more of a balance overall.  Look, when I can call the play from my living room before it happens because we do the same thing every Sunday, what do you think opposing DCs and defenders are doing?  They're salivating.

The worst. The absolute worst loss I have experienced in the past 20-years. Not because of the last play. But because of the complete lack of balance in the play calling (5 runs in the 1st half), the complete lack of scheme (continually passing 2-yards short of a 1st down on 3rd down), the complete lack of discipline (6 penalties for 81-yards against the defense, 3 penalties for 40-yards against the special teams), pass drops, turnovers, lack of ability to create turnovers when the ball is thrown right to you (Jimmy Smith and Kendrick Lewis), and so on. A lot of people are commenting that the defense played well. Really? The only reason Jax had low yardage totals was because the O kept giving them the ball on our own 30! How do you come out of a bye week and lay an egg like that? This game was a complete debacle, and like I've said from the start, this is a top down league. Lack of discipline and execution at this stage of the season translates to lack of coaching ability. Period.

My only thought right now is that Flacco needs to have that contract re-structured. Way to much money going into his wallet for the quality of play that he is providing. Nuff said about all else that is going wrong this season. Tired of beating that dead horse. Keep losing so that we can get that great draft choice that will miraculously turn us around for next season. Hopefully, Perriman will be healthy enough to play by then too. Please cut Webb. Nothing left in his tank for sure.

It's Joe's quality of play that's the issue?  No, I disagree.  How many dropped passes?  Who is getting open?  How is our running game doing?  How is the play calling, and can we have really effective play calling with the players we have on this roster?  My thought is that your thoughts are too superficial.  One player and one contract is not the issue here.

Terrible job by this Ref Crew. Took the momentum from us on 4 different occasions. Urschel "CLEARLY" signaled to the Ref and he was looking right at the huddle. No way did Webb interfere on the play near the 5. Ross was down and still had more control than the Card's tackler. I also think that CJ's calf hit the turf as he was being tackled. Amazing that when you are the home team, you seem to get the close calls...... eh ? You also don't replay  a play, with a possible reversed call, on your stadium's JumboTron......lol It's over and done with, but we may be better off with officials calling the games from the TV Booths. Get's frustrating as a Fan, but a good team won't give the ref's the chance to help decide a game's outcome.

Agree with you 100 percent.  We did absolutely nothing on offense the entire 2nd half until the final drive.  Then as we were closing in for the potential tying score, confusion sets in, headsets go off, and the train goes off the rails.  Frustrating across the board with all the calls and craziness throughout the game, but haven't we heard the "we need to finish better" story before?  Aren't we supposedly practicing week in and week out these end game scenarios?  They say lightning never strikes twice...Well, the person that made that assessment hasn't watched a Ravens game this season.

Shoot I'll say it if nobody else does. Stating referees didn't lose us the game (or injuries, or cap issues blah blah etc) is just sports politics. Because no one wants to hear excuses. We, in a sense, go along with the official statements because it sounds good instead of like sore losers but if we're being honest those calls were atrocious enough to make any team lose. This year is just Murphy's Law in full effect for our beloved Ravens...

Brother, I agree with you that those horrible calls didn't help.  But neither did our inability to move the ball at all in the 2nd half.  First drive of the 3rd quarter, 3 and out, Flacco sacked on 3rd and 10.  2nd drive - Two 1st downs, then 3 straight incompletions, punt.  Only one running play on that 2nd drive.  3rd drive - One 1st down, then 2 short passes to set up 3rd and short and we get stuffed on 3rd and 1.  Punt.  4th Drive - 3 and out, Flacco sacked on 3rd and 2.  Final drive - We move to ball all the way down the field only to be intercepted in the end zone to close out the game.  So let's put that together - 5 drives, 4 punts and a pick, 2 drives ended by sacks on 3rd down.  So while we started the 2nd half down only 4, we did nothing on offense the entire 2nd half to rectify that.   

I'm a little conflicted about that INT. I feel there's 2 ways to look at it. 1) He should've moved out of the pocket away from that unblocked pass rusher and bought some time to make a better throw. 2) But if he does that and pass falls incomplete, there's a great chance you've run the clock out trying to make something happens. So, if that's what Joe was thinking, he goes ahead and lofts it up there towards his tallest, strongest player and hopes he comes down with it. That being said, I can't seem to decide if Gilmore should've done a better job of locating the ball, or if Joe could've taken an extra second to step into the throw instead of off his back foot. That pass rusher wasn't quite in his face yet. What say the rest of you? Granted, it doesn't come down to 1 play for this game. The whole team is playing bad right now, the cap situation has really been a huge impact this year between dead cap and injuries, and the DC and OC can't seem to get the team prepared. All that being said, Joe and SSS seem to be the only 2 guys on offense that can really make magic happen. As good as Forsett has been he's not a true superstar (though still a solid starter). It's nice to see Joe getting more comfortable with Givens. We need to start him and SSS at WR because Aiken isn't scaring anyone and Brown is dropping too many passes. Hopefully Perriman does get to play at some point this season because if he doesn't, you wasted a valuable roster spot by not putting him on IR.

How about calling an audible?  He obviously recognized the blitz was coming, you could see him pause and look at the D.  I guess he thought he could float it and Gilmore would make a play.  I would just like to see Joe play with more confidence and just take the reigns.  I just don't see enough of that from him.  Don't get me wrong, I love Joe.  Just my opinion.

@Eisenberg...The running game never got going? What game were you watching? Both Forsett AND Buck had decent runs of 5 plus yards. You need to keep running the ball! Forsett ended up with 12 carries. 12! For 36 yards. Buck was sitting at 3 carries for 25 yards! I'll discount the Givens failed little reverse, which was blown up from the start since no one seemed to be able to recognize Matthieu blitzing off of that corner all night. So, between Forsett and Buck they had 15 carries for 61 yards. by my calculations that's about 4 yards a carry. We GAVE UP on the run. It did "get going". The play calling just left it there. We were down by 4 at the half and called plays as if we were down by 24. This team needs to just accept the fact that we do not currently have the playmakers to sling the ball all over the field, so we need to get back to basics on offense and defense. Run the ball, run the ball, run the ball. Play solid D, play solid D, play solid D. Let's get that accomplished and maybe we'll turn these close loses into wins. Oh, and try not running the same plays during the same portions of games week after week. If Tirico and Gruden are recognizing that in the ESPN booth, don't you think the opposing team is hip to that game as well? Just saw a note from the Sun that showed we run that same play to Juice on 47 percent of our opening drives.  47 PERCENT!  Guys, you have to come up with something either more creative, or figure out a way to run the ball down the throat of the defense in order to open up the passing game.  At least come up with another option! This team surely lacks game breakers, but the strategic formula from the coaching staff isn't making it much better. Oh, and by the way. Great job by the talent evaluators passing on Freeney and picking up Babin. We really nailed it on that move.

No excuses. We are 7 games in. We are supposedly focusing on finishing games and finishing drives in practice since this has been plaguing us all season. There is no excuse for not being prepared and not being able to execute in these moments. I don't care if the headsets went out, the lights went out, or there was a full lunar eclipse while Venus was rising, it doesn't matter. Joe, take control, call a play, read the D, make an adjustment, and score. Period. That's what professional football players get paid to do.