BillyD

I tell you Ravenshine, when I first saw your comment about the fans I was thinking what is this person talking about? But seeing your response above I get it. And I agree with you. And yes, there is a ton of negativity here on the boards, to be expected when we're sitting at 1-5 after being expected to compete for the SB this season. I think this roster does have talent. I think we have been in every single game. That being said, for me and in my opinion I am questioning the coaching, the leadership of the coaching staff, the inability to scheme for not only an opponent but in situations throughout the game, the inability to develop players with regards to talent AND discipline. It's just lacking across the board. It was more than apparent as the entire offense strolled down the field after Steve's catch with less than a minute to play. Everyone...and I mean EVERYONE on that offense was just lazily coming down the field. That is unacceptable. And in my opinion, if we had the right leaders, whether coaches or players, that wouldn't happen. But it does, week in and week out. There's no fire, will, determination...that "X" factor to make this team take it up a notch. We obviously have the talent. We aren't getting blown out form week to week. But something is missing. I'll still be rooting every week. But I'll be doing so without my rose colored glasses. This "team" is bad. And since I do believe we have talent on the roster, it makes losing the same way even more frustrating (Yeah, Harbs, I said it. I'm frustrated.)

As much as I'd like to find a reason to disagree with you and keep following the "In Oz We Trust" mantra that has been around since the beginning of time, I can't. As much as I'd like to disagree with those who said Harbs would have a tough time after the heart and soul of the Ravens, i.e., Ray and Ed, left, at this point I can't. The Ravens have whiffed on WRs since forever. The only WR we ever drafted who was worth keeping since 2008 was Torrey. And we let him walk. We let Boldin walk. We seem to be a franchise that always ends up with a great receiver who is in the later stages of his career and end up being a one trick pony dating back to the Mason days. Difference is that in those days we had a great defense and a tremendous running game. Now, not so much. I went back and looked at our draft classes since Harbs has been here. The first 4 years, from 08-11, we have exactly 4 players we drafted out of a total of 31 picks still on our roster. We have either cut draft picks, which can be expected, or let talented players we have drafted go. We have a bunch of our draft picks from 2012 to 2015 still around, but the majority are either injured or on the practice squad. Very few are making an impact, and those that are making an impact are generally on the defensive side of the ball at LB or D line. We have whiffed on DBs, WR, RB, etc. Skill position greatness just seems to elude us, and the one that we did draft we let go in Torrey. I am a Ravens fan. I bleed Black and Purple. But I, for one, cannot understand the strategy moving forward here. It just looks to me as if this team has no plan, no discipline, no explosiveness, no desire, no scheme...just a lot of "we're fighters, we need to work harder, we're not good enough, we need to get better"...We've heard all that lip service. Get it done. And if you can't, Harbs, then take your OC and DC and go coach high school football where your "rah rah" tactics might work. They aren't working here in Baltimore.

Yeah, and how about letting Boldin go over $1 mil, I think it was? Not positive on the exact amount, but want all that much in the grand scheme of things. Not sure what the strategy is here moving forward, but man are we missing some of the guys we have let walk away.

Yep, Even Rich Gannon was on the broadcast saying "where's the safety? What are they doing?" Pees is all about one on ones, not scheme. And we don't have nearly the talent on this roster to go one on one against anyone. How do we know this? Crapernick passed for 350 yards, McCown 457, Carr 300+...need I say more? I will still be rooting every Week for my team, but man this is depressing and frustrating, some of the worst football I have seen in the Ravens 20 year history.

Yep, not giving up on my Ravems either. I will root for them, win or lose. The O really carried us to the SB in 2012. We've lost a lot on O, receivers, backs, TEs, etc. Not to mention the OC coaching carousel. That being said, the O this season, while inconsistent, is showing it can produce. We've been scoring. We've had leads. Now, on the defensive side of the ball, we've lost players and have had injuries. But the recurring theme on D is losing leads. And I think that's why people are voicing frustration. Not only because we are accustom to a top 5 D in Balto, but because the current DC has a history of losing leads, especially in big games. It's frustrating. I'm not saying there aren't multiple factors for the struggles this season. One play here or there and we are easily 4-1 or 5-0. But at the end of the day we're not, and the one thing that is continually pointed out is that we had a late lead and lost it. Someone is going to take the brunt of the fan frustration. Let's get one today and start righting the ship. GO RAVENS!

Amen to that.

Great post. And I certainly think the head-shed is going to be patient, as they always are, with regards to any coaching moves. I know I myself would love to see Pees go, now or later. I don't like his philosophy. Never have. His defenses gave up big leads in big spots when he was DC in NE, and his defenses continue the same trend in Baltimore. His development of talent has also been questioned in the past. But I also see your point with regards to making a change that doesn't work out. Sort of like out of the frying pan, into the fire. I really don't buy the thought that we don't have talent. Even after Sizzle went down and Canty was out, we have still logged 15 sacks through 5 games. That's not too shabby. And Jimmy and Webby are good CBs, with Will Hill back there at safety, that's a pretty good corps in the D backfield. As a coach or a leader, you have to put your players in the best position to win. I think the fact that the coaching staff has failed to do so, along with the injuries, has put this team is a really tough predicament. So the frustration is setting in. At the end of the day, with a 1-4 record would a change really matter? I'm not sure. That's why Big Steve makes those decisions, and not us...

I mean, there are several factors. riseNConquer81 points out correctly in other posts here that they're in a consistently weak division, so their path to the playoffs is pretty clear year in and year out. But they consistently win in the playoffs as well. 21 playoff victories under Belichick, 6 AFC Championships, 4 SB wins. We all know they are known to "bend the rules" up there in NE, so certainly that could be a factor. But unfair advantage or not, players still have to execute. And the lack of execution this season is really apparent in Baltimore. I just think they have a solid overall philosophy and approach in NE. Not sure Harbs has found that yet here in Charm City. Our record would dictate that no, he hasn't. Or, at a minimum, it isn't working out the way the organization had hoped. We can still turn it around. Playoffs? Probably not this season. But there's time to right the ship and see if we can get some positive momentum moving forward.

Man, some people are pretty short sighted. The reason NE continually wins is because of their coaching philosophy. And probably some twisting of the rules. Regardless, 6 AFC Championships. 4 SB wins. Playing in a weak division does not translate to 21 playoff wins, 6 AFC Championships, and 4 SBs since Belichick took over there. Playing in a weak division might get you to the dance. It doesn't win in the playoffs, and it doesn't win SBs. Sorry champ. The question of how many years ago is absolutely relevant, specifically because you stated that NE hasn't had a decent defense since Pees left. Who was the NE DC that year in question, when the Ravens put up 33 on the Pats in their house? DEAN PEES! Therefore, while you defend Pees, you throw out an example of a Pees run defense that gave up 33 points at home in the playoffs. Genius, man. And just as a history lesson on the Pees era in NE, who was the DC in NE when they gave up a 21-6 half time lead against the Colts in the AFC Championship game in 2006? Dean Pees. Who was the DC in NE when they allowed Eli Manning to go 9 for 14 for 152 yards and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter and lost the SB? Dean Pees. Dean Pees cannot coach a defense to hold a lead. You should check history before you quote history.

How many years ago was that? You seem to give Pees way too much credit. That 'mediocre' defense has gotten them to 6 SBs and won 4. I seem to remember you giving Pees all kinds of kudos for winning a SB in Baltimore. With the 17th ranked defense that season. During a historic playoff run by...the Baltimore offense. Besides, the point I believe that pretty much everyone is trying to make is that NE continues to win. Year in and year out. Your point is well taken that the AFC East isn't exactly competitive, but NE hasn't generally played the AFC East in the playoffs on their way to 6 SBs under this regime and its scheme. And some cheating as well, but we will put that aside for now. As the Harbaugh ''philosophy" takes hold here in Baltimore, it has not gotten better. It's gotten worse. If I didn't know better I'd say you must work for Harbs and the coaching staff, because you sure love to give them credit when the record after the departure of good coordinators and veterans just isn't good.

That's what Harbs is apparently saying. I don't buy it.

I hear you. Inexperience is always an issue. But, in the words of Booger McFarland this morning on Sirius NFL Radio, who was speaking about another young defense in the league whose DC accepted responsibility for that defense's poor play thus far this season, "Who else would be at fault besides the DC? Of course it's the DC's fault". He went on to point out that of course inexperience will be an issue, but as a coach you need to ensure that your scheme fits your players and that your players are in position to make plays. Booger should know...he spent plenty of time on some great Tampa defenses in his time. Inexperience can be overcome for the most part through scheme and coaching. The problem we have is we currently lack experience, scheme, AND coaching. Triple threat....recipe for disaster.

I love this comment and it is so on point! I had the same thought when I read that. Are you kidding me??? Three plays you would have called differently? What did those three plays account for, 50 yards? How about the other 400 passing yards the D allowed? If Harbs and Pees would have only adjusted on three plays, there is a serious issue here IMO. I was also taken aback by Harbs' comments in his press conference yesterday when he was asked about discipline as it relates to committing penalties. The reporter asking the question mentioned that some in the press and some fans were questioning whether discipline was an issue. Harbs got into defensive mode, says he doesn't listen to anybody or "that stuff", and then proceeded to highlight two special teams penalties that he felt were a result of bad technique. But he had also pointed out the two offside penalties that were "inexcusable" and a hands to the face that was inexcusable. So he highlights three of 12 penalties that were "inexcusable", which I personally interpret as undisciplined play, and tries to counter with a hold and a block in the back on special teams that are "technique issues". Give me a break. A hold, maybe you could consider that a technique issue, but that block in the back he was referring to was a boneheaded play plain and simple. It had nothing to do with technique. This team does not lack talent. We've been in every single game this season. They do lack scheme and discipline. Harbs should just man up and take a look in the mirror. Quick.

Well..I think that statement is too general. You can, and it's always a risk. But if you mix it up, disguise it so the QB can't adjust the protections, identify where the outlet is and make sure that's covered, you can make it work. BUT...in our scheme we don't do that. We have our corners WAY off the line, we walk a blitzer to the line, no disguise whatsoever, no stunt, etc. There's no attempt to confuse the QB or the O line...so we're just very vanilla in our approach. And this is especially true in key situations. You can't be considered to have a weak pass rush when you are tied for 5th in the league with 15 sacks. So we can generate pressure. But that's early in games and when the opposing team adjusts, we kind of fall back and get really soft. I don't get it.

Agreed. If it was a knee-jerk reaction Pees would have been fired after dropping 2 (yes - T-W-O) 14-point leads to NE in the Divisional Round last season. He had these issues in NE as well, dropping a 17-point lead against Indy and always...ALWAYS had issues against Drew Brees and Sean Peyton. Common denominator? Pass defense. Pees has consistently had a poor record against the pass. And Harbs, God bless him, doesn't have the coglioni to fire ANYONE. Castillo was lucky that Kubiak came in last season and installed the zone blocking scheme, but now that Kubs is gone, I'm seeing really uneven line play. And remember, before Kubs got here our O line was atrocious. And who remembers the Cam days? The O had so much potential, and the play calling just defied logic at times. Harbs was FORCED by the Front Office to fire Cam. I agree, there needs to be a shake up. It's too bad that the blame seems to be rolling down hill with guys getting moved all around, 9 roster moves! How about a coaching move? A philosophical change? I don't trust Harbs' assessment of DC talent. With OCs it's also been hit or miss...Cam...then Caldwell (remember how that experiment was...O was awful in 2013), to Kubs who was really good, now to Trestman who I can't figure out. DC went from Rex (the Hey Days) to Mattison (awful...the D today reminds me of the Mattison days), to Pags (awesome) to Pees (awful). I just don't know what to say. The Harbs philosophy is just not working for me. Somebody has to go.

Good call budman. It's the basic scheme that Pees always runs. A lot of people blame the pass rush or lack of a pass rush...which makes no sense seeing as we're tied with 2 other teams with the 5th best sack total on the season (15). It's the pass rush not getting there in key situations. Again, scheme. How is it that we can get to the QB early on in games, run stunts or blitzes, but when we drop 7 and rush 4 we can't cover, guys are wide open early on in their routes and the pass rush has no shot of getting to the QB? It's scheme. And you're right, we don't press in those situations, 3rd and 4, 2nd and 5. We are 8 to 10 yards off the receiver, allowing the receiver to run to the sticks, turn, catch the ball...1st down. Over. And over. And over again. In key situations. If you drop 7, why wouldn't you press, split the field with your safeties to bring help over the top, and bracket the receivers. I don't know. And I also love all the talk about penalties. Blame it on the league, blame it on "technique"...what it really comes down to is coaching. If you don't coach your players and instill discipline, if you have basically, as a staff, eliminated all of the leaders on your team either through attrition (retirement) or trades, or free agency, well, you as a coaching staff better do a heck of a job coaching these guys up. Folks, welcome to the actual beginning of the REAL Harbaugh era. Time will tell if his philosophy works. Doesn't seem to be working presently.

Yep. Their leadership went a long way. People soon forget that it was Ray, Ed, Pollard, Boldin, that stood up to Harbs that season, said they wanted McKinney on the O line, pulled a rabbit out of a hat when SF was storming back against the Pees "bend don't break" D...people also forget that Harbs was practically forced to dump Cameron after a 3 game midseason skid. Credit the veterans in 2012 for that SB win. Alas, they are all gone and we are stuck with the real Harbs era philosophy at this point. These are now all his draft picks and trades. These are his coaches. Across the board they are not even spreading the mustard let alone cutting it. Starts at the top-philosophy, coaching, and scheme. Not good.

Whatever man. You have your opinion, I have mine. You want to talk semantics and split hairs about the 'unit'. It's clearly not the same unit, even in your own words (it's the same unit minus 4 guys). Ok, the replacement starters know the lingo, the players etc. So do ours. You say we 'held' the vaunted Broncos out of the end zone, I say Manning hasn't looked himself yet this season and that offense is not clicking on all cylinders. That team has been leaning on its defense thus far this season. You say Carr lit us up because he is up and coming and surrounded by weapons. I say we got out coached by a mediocre team that has not performed nearly as well in any other game outside of the Ravens game. You say we didn't have a chance against Cincy. I say the D blew it and we were out coached (see the Bengals comments after the game about the scheme we were running and how they just took what they wanted and we just kept giving it to them. But I guess you don't follow those comments. Just what you feel are legit in your own mind). You say we held the Steelers to 20. Talk about a Jayvee squad. Vick was atrocious and looked atrocious last night as well. We won that game because the Steelers had no kicker and their coach made some bone headed decisions in crunch time. And since you are all into specifics and semantics, the Steelers played the Chargers last night, not the Niners. And Bell did pretty much the same to them as he did to the Ravens. And now you're going to blame the Browns game on injuries. Pees' units have a history of softening when he has the lead. It's fact. Do the research. And the proof that there is a problem is in our current record. We're 1-4, lucky not to be 0-5, after we were expected to be playoff and potential Super Bowl contenders. The proof is in the record, which was earned prior to the injuries compounding the issues. The offense is not blameless in the struggles, but they had us up 21-9 this week, and also had late leads in pretty much every single game this season. And the same thing happens. The defense cannot hold the lead. Like I said in the opening here. You have your opinion. I have mine. Let's leave it at that. And I see that anyone, even legit reporters that break news an hour before the 'official' word comes out, from a team that regularly bends the truth, don't hold water in your mind because it strays from your line of thinking. That's cool, though. I respect that. I'd love to go through life with blinders on, too. I just choose not to.

Hey, we can agree to disagree. And yes, I said 5 new players. Players...starters...it's a different unit. And folks were questioning allowing Browner, Reavis, and Wilfork to walk. My point is it hasn't affected them in the least. We lost one starter. McPhee wasn't a starter, but a solid role player, no doubt. But still, the point is we began the season with essentially the same roster as last season, and it hasn't improved. The quote from NBC Sports can be found at : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/14/patriots-fire-defensive-coordinator/ Now, an hour later NE made a statement saying Pees stepped down. That can be found in this article: http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/1/14/1251972/time-for-a-house-cleaning-patriots Notice the reasoning in the second article as to why: 1) Inability to develop talent 2) Late game collapses Did the Patriots cut Pees some slack, tell him they were letting him go or weren't going to renew his contract and give him the opportunity to step down? Who knows? But the trend of blowing leads in games and getting out-coached is pretty apparent. Those defenses ranked high as well, but lost games in big spots. Just like the Ravens have done under Pees. And Belichick, well, enough with that talk. Does he call the plays? Generally I would think not, but I don't know. I'm not following him and Patricia on the sidelines to see what they are discussing during the game. I respect your opinions and you obviously are not only a fan but very knowledgeable about the game. So let's go ahead and throw out the preseason. Let's talk about these first 5 games. What are your thoughts? It hasn't gotten any better. Yeah, there have been injuries, but we have been getting burned all season. So it can't just be that. For that matter, the injury bug has hit us before and we have survived: http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2015/9/28/9406691/pees-should-be-fired I tend to disagree with your thoughts on Guy. Yes, he's been a back up. Since stepping into a starting role he has 2 sacks and 22 tackles in 2 games. These other guys do have talent. It's the coaches job to instill discipline and install a scheme that works with the talent available. IMO, Pees almost lost that SB. So he gets no credit in my book. Look, I enjoy the banter and definitely respect your opinion. I just have my own opinion and I'm not just speaking off the cuff. My opinions are based in what I see and my own experience. All that being said I'm sure we can agree that, ugly or not, we're both going to be watching Sunday rooting for the Black and Purple. Let's hope in the long run, they either rebuild or find a way to fix the problems. Either way you look at it, your opinion or mine, there's no easy quick fix.

Absolutely. 100% correct. But why was Pees let go in New England? Because his scheme could not get the job done in big games. And we're seeing a continuing trend here in Baltimore. There are, no doubt, multiple issues facing the Ravens, but it's pretty clear if you look at Pees' track record he has not faired well in big moments. And even though we're talking about the start of a season and not the playoffs or SB, we have lost 4 of 5 games because of defensive let downs. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the patience the org has shown here and over the past few seasons with Pees. I think patience is one of our organization's strong points. But you have to admit, you were on the edge of your seat in 2012 as the 49ers roared back after being shut down for the entire 1st half and most of the 2nd half. Was that a scheme adjustment or the lights going out? It's difficult to say looking at one game, but we have seen this over...and over...and over again with Pees calling the plays. I think Harbs deserves a lot of credit supporting "his guys", both the OC and the DC. Would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those team meetings to see what he's saying behind closed doors, though. We'll see how this all shakes out. I'm just ready for another Ravens win, ugly or not. Let's get it done!

And with regards to Belichick, he's the head coach. And is known for being very involved in overall scheme and working with the coordinators, not to mention is a very experienced defensive coach who let Pees go (and let him go with good reason). I believe the quote from NBC Sports mentions the fact that, while Pees' defensive units ranked in the top 10 overall in his tenure there, they continued a trend of coming up short in big games. If a HC is not ultimately responsible for those who work for him...i.e., OC and DC, then what is the HC's job?

Thanks for the read. Both D tackles on NE were not starters last season. Wilfork and Kelly are no longer on the NE roster. Additionally, Reavis and Browner are no longer on the roster. That's 4. Also, Harmon has been replaced by Chung as a starter. That's 5 new starters according to my math. So that's half the defensive front and half the secondary, although Chung saw a lot of PT in the past, so I'll submit that 4 starters lost is probably more accurate. Now let's address ability. So what you are saying is that Mosley and Smith have no ability? Williams, Guy, Jernigan, and Davis have no ability? Upshaw, Jimmy Smith, Will Hill, and Lewis have no ability? Really? That's why we can't stop anyone? That's your opinion and I certainly respect that. But I respectfully disagree with your assessment based on Pees' track record here in Baltimore, which is not good. Simple as that. I don't buy the preseason argument either. The starters played plenty and weren't consistent, and our reserves are playing against their reserves and the scheme just didn't work. That's just my opinion and seems to be the opinion of plenty of folks here in Ravens Nation as well as in the national media.

Couldn't agree more. Clarence is proven and his unit does its job for the most part. The secondary is not being coached or schemed appropriately. We let Dalton pass for 300+ and AJ Green log over 200 yards receiving. Carr passed for 350+. And McCown? 457 yards passing! Really? It ain't getting any better. Same old story from the coaching staff...we need to do a better job. Really? Talk is cheap, boys. Every week we need to do a better job, and every week it seems to get worse.

Disagree...disagree...disagree. Coaching...coaching...coaching. Mike Preston had a great article recently in the Sun basically stating that Belichick continues to coach to his roster ability, and thus continues to win. They have 5 new players on that 11 man defensive roster in NE and haven't missed a beat. We have basically the same roster as last season, only losing Ngata to free agency. And we have the same DC. Yes, we have had injuries, but how do you explain the inability to stop the opposing offense dating all the way into the preseason, before the injuries happened? Didn't Harbs mention that in a post game press conference in pre season, that it would be nice to get a defensive stop at the end of a half? This is all about coaching and scheme, and Pees has proven over his tenure that he cannot defend the pass. He has never been able to scheme a defense to effectively defend the pass, look at his track record. I'm not overly excited about the offense either, but they are at least putting up points. There are multiple issues on this team on offense and defense, but most glaring to me is the lack of discipline and the inability to put together a defensive scheme that stops the opposing offense.

I'd pay to see that...I appreciate the patience the org has shown, but enough is enough. It's obvious that the scheme Pees uses sucks. It's just horrible, vanilla, so obvious that teams just run right through us like a bad taco through a frat kid. Trestman, he could be doing better IMO, but at the same time it's not like we're not putting points on the board. I'm way more concerned with the D at this point. Man, I've never seen a Ravens defense look so helpless. It's enfuriating!