PurpleCity5

I don't see Zuttah in the team plans at all honestly. I think he's cut even if we don't sign Mangold. F.O talked about beefing up the OL and creating a physical core. They've talked up a lot about Alex Lewis, Ronnie Stanley is a potential franchise LT and Yanda is Yanda. Harbaugh talked about keeping Wagner and it sounds like he's just as big of a priority as Brandon Williams. That leaves Zuttah alone and the team hasn't said anything about him. I think he could be one of the 1st cuts made next week. 

He played plenty of Strong Safety as well but he was underwhelming there. Also as The Raven said you still have to know how to cover reguardless of where you are at, whether it was at FS or SS he did not demonstrate he could do that. I'll honestly never forget that play that he competely whiffed on against Cleveland two years ago. I think it was Taylor Gabriel who caught a deep bomb from Brian Hoyer and fell to the ground right in front of Elam, did not even get touched clearly and Elam just stands there like a statue, and lets Gabriel get up and run for an extra 20 yards. Seeing that play got me totally heated, my raw reaction was like "GUAAHHHHGHHGDGAST" are you kidding me? Like how can you let that happen?!" Whatever, thats in the past but I'll never forget just how pissed off I was

4 hours ago, The Raven said:

I'd also be okay with it. I like Wagner but he's only worth paying if he you want him to be a RT in a primarily wide zone running game. He's mediocre in all other blocking schemes. His pass protection is solid and could warrant a pay day but his run blocking, taken as a whole, leaves a lot to be desired.

And with Williams... In 2017, I don't believe in giving multi-year deals with a salary of more than $5 million to defenders who don't impact the quarterback position.

I used to think that Wagner was just an okay run blocker but I looked into some numbers and he might be better than what some of us believe. On runs through the right tackle, Wagner ranked 15th, not great but it ranked as our best with runs though the middle/guard, LT, and left end ranking behind. On runs through the right end however, the Ravens were #1 in the league and very effective in that area. I know these numbers might not be a huge deal considering that the Ravens mostly ran it through the middle and began running plays threw the left end more towards the end of the season, but I just think these numbers show that Wagner is pretty effective as a run blocker. 

I agree in Williams case to a point, but the guys next to him were completely underwhelming, it would be easier to move on from him if Jernigan and Guy weren't so bad towards the end of the year. 

I know Football outsiders catch some criticism, but I don't really have access to a PFF subscription. 

5 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Yea its just preference i guess.  I just think keeping Wagner would make a bigger overall difference by helping the run game and keeping Joe up right.  I would love to keep both, bring in Mangold and sign a veteran WR.....clearly that cant happen

I think it's possible that we can do all that, certainly, we'll have to make the cap purge but as it stands we can sign one of the Williams or Wagner right now, make the cuts and we can sign both alongside Mangold and a Vet WR who isn't expensive but isn't too cheap either. 

16 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

He's available now, time to go get him. Question is what type of deal do you give him. As you said, get him in the building and don't let him leave until he's signed. I think that's an immediate upgrade to the Center position and frees you up to select another position of need in the draft. 

Yep, I want him bad and I very much anticipate the Ravens are going to go hard after him. It makes way too much sense, perfect fit for this OL and what they want to do, still has plenty left in the tank, a mauler, physical, both qualities which the Ravens want really badly. Sell him hard on contending in the twilight years of high career, and if Nick Mangold arrives in the Ravens facility they cannot let him leave, go on shutdown mode and lock every door if you have to lol. 

17 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I can definitely understand your point and agree that every player wants to feel wanted. I just feel that if a player wants to break the bank or be the highest paid, that's his focus. It's only so much you can show a player you want him and still build a successful team. Both Williams and Wagner are certainly important but if either push 10m for example, the Ravens can't continue to pull resources to accommodate them. That's just bad business. The Ravens have a certain amount allocated to signing those players and still fielding a competitive team.

Now on the flip side those guys gotta do what's best for their families. If the Ravens don't fit into what's best for their families than they have to walk. 

If money is the only way to show love then teams like the Ravens, Steelers and Pats will loss a ton of good players which they do.

I understand that, but those guys could give the Ravens a pass and re-sign if the difference is below is a mil if they're wanted and feel like a apart of the teams future. Sometimes guys might not feel like the million or below difference might not be as big of a deal as going to a team like the Cleveland Browns or Jacksonville Jaguars where you will be stressed out of your mind. The Ravens have their limits on how much they can pay their guys, and other teams go beyond that, so if it comes down to both leaving then as you said, it's business. 

20 hours ago, usmccharles said:

If we cant retain one of them ill understand, but if we lose both I will be absolutely disappointed.  IMO, I think Wagner is more valuable, this turnover rate on the OL is killer and have been struggling at the C position since Birk left.  I was all about paying Mack the money he got, Stanley-Lewis-Mack-Yanda-Wagner....damn id be happy.  I am normally a defensive minded person, but if we can really build the OL, that will improve the run game along with giving Joe the time needed. Bringing in Zeitler I would be happy about as well.  Im unsure if Lewis can handle RT duties

We definitely have some holes to fill, but I think the OL is most important. 

I think the team would much rather prefer leaving Lewis at LG than moving him to RT, they feel really good about Lewis as a potential pro-bowl LG and think he can definitely have a future there. I personally view Williams as the more valuable player, a NT is pretty important to a defense like our own and some teams don't value RT as much as the other positions on the line, they're the least paid of their group, of the ten highest paid OL, only one right tackle ranks in the top 10 in pay roll, that being Lane Johnson who got the extra boost in salary because he's expected to make the move to LT soon. That said, I won't discount Wagner's important neither will I bypass what a great RT can do for an OL. I think losing Wagner would still hurt dearly if we degrade badly from him. Lose both Williams and Wagner and I think the team could regress next season. 

15 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This was my point in saying they. They are just pieces, so they must know that the team can't just sit back and wait on them to make a decision to sign or not. For example, the Ravens have already made a offer to Wagner and he didn't like it enough. Ok, great let the negotiation began, but I feel it would be foolish for Wagner and his camp to hold it against the Ravens for trying to fill other areas of need on this team while in negotiation with him are on going. So while both guys know they are important I think it would be foolish for them to hold the team hostage like that because now you basically hurt the overall team to get your deal. If either guy had their feeling hurt because the Ravens are showing love or more love to another player that's not at the same position than both Williams and Juice should be mad at the Ravens for offering Wagner a deal already and no-one else. I just don't think those type of emotions are involved with these negotiations.  

I heard the same thing about KO. The deal was slightly bigger than what Yanda was being paid which would have placed KO among the top 3 highest paid Guards iirc. The highest paid players on offense was Flacco, followed by Yanda, so if the Ravens were willing to make him the second highest paid player on offense, that says they really feel like they need you. That says we want you in my book. But he wanted to be paid like you said. I think everyone knew the Ravens were up against the cap last year and made certain moved to go hard after KO which they did. So if he felt unwanted because the Ravens didn't completely blow up their cap to accommodate a  LT like deal for him than he probably didn't really want to be here anyway, he just wanted Baltimore to be the team that paid the most which is a big difference. Remember KO got 4Mil per year more and 9Mil more in guarantees than Yanda. That's a huge gap and once the Ravens heard them numbers Im sure their the ones who lost interest. 

To be honest with you, I think losing Brandon Williams could be a big blow to this defense. I don't know anyone behind him who can step up and the guys next to him, Timmy Jernigan and Lawrence Guy looked bad in their final weeks. They were gassed and I'm questioning right now if Timmy Jernigan is a guy who can be effective for a whole season. If we lose Brandon Williams and the guys who played next to them carry on their play from the last few weeks onto next season then I think the Ravens defense might have a new problem and it won't be with the secondary. 

In Wagner's case they might need him almost as bad as BW, the team is going to be cutting ties with Zuttah, if you lose Wagner then that's two spots on the OL you need to fill. The OL needs as much time to gel and as much continuity as possible in order to be up there with some of the leagues best, losing him would be bad, losing both guys would be a big blow to this team and I honestly think it could be so bad that it could set us back from contention. 

I very much think so emotions are involved, if you're a player like BW, this is the peak of your FA. You want to feel wanted, this is the case for a lot of guys. The Ravens started this by calling him the best NT in the league or something like that. I've seen so many times in a headline where a player felt like he got low-balled on a deal or felt unwanted because a team didn't try hard enough to keep him. That's pretty much the case if the Ravens go hard after a Tony Jefferson for $7M knowing they have BW and Wagner in FA. Pay up for a guy like that and both of them might feel like they're no longer needed by the team and will look elsewhere. 

6 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I think the Ravens might add a lesser name S if he comes at a good price. A mid 20s guys who's entering his prime and can push Webb. 

Its possible they could be upset about the Ravens pursuing other FAs aggressively, but at the end of the day a NT or RT isn't winning you a championship. The team still has to build and add other pieces. If they can't understand that or they feel some type of way about it than you just have to be willing to watch them walk imo. 

KO wanted to be paid higher than the Ravens were willing to pay. There's no way he was worth more than Yanda to this team and the Ravens weren't willing to over pay him. The Ravens were willing to make him a top 5 paid OG and he wanted to break the bank. KO getting nearly 10M more than the highest paid Guards landed him in Oak, not his feeling towards the Ravens. Now if the Ravens offer was like 1-2Mil off, than I would have paid more attention to the comments he made about the Ravens on his way out. But he just saw a chance to cash out and the Ravens wanted no parts of it. If the same thing holds true for Wagner or Williams they should walk too. 

A NT or RT isn't winning you a title but I think both guys know that they're important pieces of the team. I think we all do as well and there's lots of talk about what losing an RT would do to this OL and how bad it would be for us. Losing a NT like Williams when other guys on the line played awful in the final weeks is a fairly big deal, I think Damon Harrison has had a tremendous impact on the Giants and I feel that Williams could match that, so while neither guys are winning us a title, they're certainly going to help us build towards that route. 

KO wanted to get paid, but he also wanted to be felt like he was needed, now there's conflicting reports out there but I can recall Ian Rappaport saying that the Ravens really wanted to keep KO and were willing to make him the 2nd highest paid player on offense. I don't know if this is true but I really think we would have liked to keep KO and felt that if we have a bit more cap space to function under and made an aggressive move on him and lets say fall a million short, than I think he could've stayed. Of course that makes this discussion meaningless because we didn't have the space for it, but I definitely think keeping your interest on guys keeps them listening  to you. 

12 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Well there are several ways the Ravens could handle this. Keep in mind, Pitta will be cut as reported by NFL.com and he will be designated as a post June 1st cut, so there isn't anything the Ravens can do with his cap space saving other than after June 1st which they can use to sign their rookies or some other late cut FA. As for Doom, I really believe he'll be very productive as long as he proves to be healthy. I am not confident we are going to get a pass rusher in the early rounds of the draft because we either pick a safety or a CB in the first. As for Judon and Zadarius I don't know if they're ready yet. And pass rush is critical to our success.

PS: It was actually Mike Garafolo of NFL Network that tweeted about Pitta being a potential cap casualty.

Correction, it's actually about $10M in savings if both are cut, but I still believe that means that Pitta is a cut, but I don't think he's the only cut that's being made, I think Doom will join him. that's 10M in cap space that can be put to really good use. The June 1st cut isn't really used often in the NFL and for plenty of reasons, the Ravens themselves don't use it often. 

As for Doom, it's tough to come back from an injury like that. He didn't look like himself and it's tough to comeback from an injury like that, I think that coupled with the savings just means his time is done here. He's not staying with that cap number, if he takes a paycut I wouldn't be upset but it would have to be a drastic one because he's not trending upward IMO. 

11 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

For the record I wasn't saying Tony Jefferson should be added, was just pointing to that scenario.

I agree that Webb should be retained at a lower cap number and the safety position should be addressed in the draft.  I like Jefferson but I think the Ravens are in a good place with Weddle and maybe even Webb to develop a young safety. 

As for Wagner and Williams getting upset about a bidding war for another player. The Ravens wouldn't care. They can't allow either player to hold them hostage from building this team in other areas. The Ravens are going to allocate a certain amount of money to retain those players and I don't think they will go over that amount, regardless of what happens with other players. 

I get what you mean, I just wanted to state my personal opinion on the Ravens adding another safety since it's so popular. 

I think Wagner and Williams caring about the Ravens interest does matter. They might not be too happy if the team isn't fully focuesed on retaining them and we've seen stuff like that happen all across the league. K.O himselfed felt low-balled and disrespected by the Ravens not being as competitive as he hoped for and while they couldn't afford it, the fact that happened sort of effected his decision. When he saw the Raiders continued interest in him, it definitely got him on board. 

1 hour ago, ellicottraven said:

I don't believe its smart to cut Dumervil till the draft is finished. There is no rush to do it. There's plenty of cap space that can be saved by cutting Watson, Kendrick Lewis, Shareece Wright and possibly Webb and Pitta. Like you I believe Gillmore is an exceptionally confident and talented TE and also believe he'll stay healthy this year with the new training program by Saunders. I think Pitta could be a post June cut unless Ozzie decides to cut him now so he can find another team to play for. Webb is the one I am on the fence about. He played fairly well as the year progressed in a brand new position. He's always been a sure tackler with good hands. I feel we should keep him as a back up safety should we land a really good one in the draft or trade for the Cardinals guy. Doom when healthy and again under the new program should be very productive (10+ sacks). This also lets Judon keep gaining confidence and skills till he is ready to replace either Sizz or Doom next season full time. Zadarius is a wild card here. He regressed last year, but could make a strong showing with increased opportunities.

Cutting Doom before the draft would give you potentially the necessary cap space to sign his replacement, so I honestly think it's best if we do it now before the draft. Also, there's no guarantee that the guy you want to have on your team is going to be there. Doom and Pitta cap savings combined is 12M, there's no way the Ravens don't put that into use via FA. It's best if they're both cut now as opposed to the draft. 

6 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

 I might be willing to add Doom to that list based on how low you can lower his cap and how that position is addressed. The Ravens seem to have a ton of faith in the young pass rushers but I don't share that faith. I'd love to see how Matt Judon progresses from year 1 to 2 and imo KC has to be used in more of a blitzing roll then just a regular rusher. So unless a guy like Derek Barnett (insert your favorite prospect) is drafted early or you can upgrade in FA with a younger option, I'd like Doom to return as a pass rush specialist. I think if healthy he definitely has something left in the tank and a vet minimum type deal would be great value. 

Doom is gone unless a pay cut is there. This team needs to just force themselves to get younger and better off the edge. At 33 and coming off a Achilles tear(and he looked awful when returning onto the field) there's just not a lot of confidence you can have in him. I'm iffy on him accepting the vet because he might make a lot more on the open market and wouldn't have a reason staying on a team for less money that he might not feel would contend for a SB. Personally, I think he's out. 

10 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

He'll certainly be asked to take a pay cut, but unless someone like Tony Jefferson is added, Webb will be given the opportunity to compete for the starting role. So I wouldn't say Webb will automatically be a backup. 

 

If he takes a pay cut then I think that might rule out Tony Jefferson. Webb was pretty good in coverage but what I also thought he excelled at was tackling, he was able to bring down TEs effectively and having two good tackling safeties is very valuable. Webb should be relied upon if he takes a pay cut unless he's really bad in TC. '

I like Tony Jefferson but Arizona is very high on keeping him, I wouldn't want to see the Ravens get into a bidding war over another teams FA with Wagner and Williams on the block. I could see them easily getting upset with the Ravens if they get into a bidding war with Jefferson but not become competitive with their offers. 

16 hours ago, berad said:

Agreeing with you up until this point.

The Ravens had a very good rate at avoiding 3-and-outs. Of their 192 drives, only 35 ended in a 3-and-out, which is an 18.23% rate and good for 6th best in the league (LINK). That's in front of teams like the Packers, Cowboys, Steelers, and even the Patriots who were bottom 6.

Also, the Ravens had a positive TOP on the year and were above-average (12th overall) for the league (LINK). The defense blowing leads had less to do with the offense and was more on their own failings. Losing Jimmy Smith really seemed to tank that unit and Pees could not adjust adequately - didn't help that some prolific offense came through, too.

I think the big issue on the offensive end was Red-zone scoring, I love Tucker but the offense made him look too good, they need to keep him off the field sometimes. 

I would like to point out that while the Ravens were good at avoiding 3 and outs, they surely did not do a good job of obtaining 1st downs ranking 26th in the league in that category, you can find all of the worst offensive teams in the league in that group. I think the issue is still the Ravens not being able to sustain Drives, especially in situations where they got good field position, something we saw too many times. 

On 2/21/2017 at 9:45 PM, Deflated Football said:

If he wants to stay a Raven, he'd have to settle for a significant decrease in pay and a backup job, which is the right thing to do in my opinion 

He would have to take a pay-cut but why would he be a back-up? He was pretty good overall and had a top-5 coverage grade in the final 6 weeks of the season. I think Webb was one of the guys who contributed largely to the secondary in the 1st half of the season. IMO Webb has been catching too much flack this season. 

I don't know about a pay-cut, I think they're going to just flat out cut him. You got a group of young(Yes, unproven guys) that you invested so much into, time to see who steps up. Not to mention that as others have said and I totally agree with this, Joe is becoming too reliant on Pitta and needs to spread the ball around. I am a fan of Pitta and will never forget what he did for the Ravens and the memories he gave us fans, but it might be time to move on. 

5 hours ago, 757RavensFan said:

Too lazy to scroll the other 32 pages, did anyone mention possibly losing Lawrence Guy to free agency? Even as a starter, Guy is mostly overlooked. He quietly does his job w/ little to no fan fare.  Honestly, I would hate to see him leave, but I don't know if the Ravens even want to retain him. 

It wouldn't be great to lose Guy, if Williams walk than I don't think he returns, with that said towards the end of the year he did not do a good job at all. I couldn't decide who was worse, him or Jernigan. Guy is still a very solid player and I would like to keep him around, but I think the FO would be content to let him go. It would help keep Jernigan who IMO might not be expensive to retain if he doesn't keep his motor running during the season. 

1 hour ago, jazz1988 said:

I don't understand why Kamar Aiken is somewhat unappreciated . The guy had 900 receiving yards  and 5 touchdowns in 2015 and caught 60 percent of his passes. He can play outside as well as inside and has shown to be dependable in the past. He had a down year last year and I'm not surprised by that after seeing him being pushed to play on special teams and not getting the chances on offense like he would have expected after his 2015 season..I have seen Ravens fans talk about Pierre Garcon and Robert Woods but I think Kamar Aiken is a similar player as them  and may even be cheaper..

For the record, I really like Aiken and think the guy is underrated, but going back to the film this season, I noticed, he sometimes couldn't separate even on one-on-one coverage and even had trouble beating LBs on slant patterns from the slot. That seemed to follow him this year and even last year he had trouble with that. Steve Smith Sr. and Mike Wallace coming in surely didn't help that problem. I don't think Joe looked away from Aiken intentionally, when a guy isn't getting open or making plays then it's tough to look his way in critical moments.

On 2/18/2017 at 3:35 AM, JO_75 said:

To break up this WR talk, here's a link to an interview B-Will did talking about FA. Apparently he's talked to the FO about what he wants. 

 

I don't think that means he will leave if the difference between us and another team is short of a million. I think he just wants enough to secure a future for himself and his family, what he said might sound like he'll go to the highest bidder but I don't think that's completely the case. As long as the Ravens pursue and continue to show interest, and pay him like a top 5 NT, then I think he'll return. Unless the difference between us and another team is beyond a million. 

4 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Phili will almost assuredly cut him if he can't be traded, so I can't imagine very much. Mid round pick.

Yeah, I've seen that around, what would the cap implications be if we do trade for him, I know Phil would have to pay him part of his salary but I don't think the year one cap hit will be sizable. He does have a cap hit of $10M though for 2018 so I honestly think a cut would be the best route for us. 

10 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Baltimore is speculated to be a team asking.

Oh wow, that's interesting. I wonder how much we're willing to give up. 

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Connor Barwin is almost assuredly out in Phili. Have to imagine Baltimore calls.

I mentioned him several months ago, but he's the type of guy Baltimore would love to add.

I like Barwin, he was a top pass rusher along with Doom in 2014 and I don't think he's too far away from what he used to be capable of. I like him here. I read that he has suitors so I don't know how much we can pay up. 

11 hours ago, RavensFanMania said:

The more I see his tape the more I like Wilson.  

I think he will fall to us. I think Marlon Humphrey's is going to do better in the combine and I think teams will view Sidney Jones as the better prospect and look past Lattimore's injury history, if so they're going to lose out because we're going to be a lucky team if we get Wilson here. I think he's going to be a really good CB. 

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Agreed. Don't know what their relationship is but he's played under Marty before and was said to have mastered the oline calls. So that might be another plus. 

I think he'll be a great fit here. 

Here's another name, what about Arthur Jones? I know he's disappointed Indy since signing there and he's had injury plagued seasons here as well but when healthy he was pretty good, I personally think he would be a really good low cost signing if we managed to lose Lawrence Guy.