PurpleCity5

It's possible the Ravens were not willing to make Wagner the highest paid RT (outside of Lane) and decided they would just offer him something below what the top two in their position is making. Maybe, right now, his mind-set is if I'm not going to be the highest paid RT right now, then I'm sure I can be if I hit the market. In that sense he's probably not listening much to the Ravens because he knows that they won't honor what he wants and thats being the highest paid RT period, even more than Lane. 

My question is what team is willing to do that? Cleveland with a dumpster fire of a FO wasn't willing to pay the NO.2 RT in Football, but then again they actually operate under the cap better than given credit for. It only takes one to overpay someone. I'll sit back and watch this go down but I don't think he leaves, I'm holding out hope. 

Or maybe this is Wagner just being rewarded for waiting patiently. Marcus Cannon signed a $32M but he's argued as one of the best RT in the league, maybe the best. He might have rushed that because a lot of guys in the NFL like security, and there's many reasons why. Maybe that could just be it. 

38 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

If we can land Marshall and Mangold, I guarantee these losses will be forgotten.  Center and wr are more important at this point.

It might to an extent. I think if playing at a high level Mangold would not only close the gap of what we lost in Wagner but actually push it further. A great C would do more for us in this offense than an elite RT. 

Some towards Marshall, we're dying for someone with the same skillset as him. 

I'm really curious to see what the Ravens offered Wagner because I think it's possible they low balled him and put him under the top five RT range. When Harbaugh said they gave him competitive offers, by what definition do they mean? I think it's possible that the Ravens might not value Wagner as highly as we think they do. Anyhow I think a lot of reporters and the media are overreacting, just because someone wants to hit FA doesn't mean they're out, I heard the same things about Eugene Monroe and he ended up resigning here. 

That said, I could be overly optimistic about this whole situation.

18 minutes ago, Davesta said:

Possible 2 3rd round comp pick in 2018 for Wagner and b will? Or I'm dreaming? 

I think we got a good shot at the 3rd round comp pick for BW if the reports of him valued at 64M is true, but in Wagner's case, no. 

6 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Not only that... their formula has been building the interior line. 

Both have decent RT's but if there's a weakness on either line it's at that position. 

 

The interior of that line and Tyron Smith is/are special. I don't think that means that teams will follow their formula, before the OL they still have to make sure they have a quarterback, thats what both of those teams have, and guys that can play QB at a high level. Cleveland had an elite OL not too long ago and they were not good because they didn't have a QB. 

7 hours ago, rmw10 said:

That's last year, not this year. This FA group at all positions is significantly weaker, which means those at the top of the class are getting paid. 

Ravensfan23 summed up my thoughts perfectly, as he usually does. If Wagner does indeed get a deal that places him as the highest paid RT outside of Lane Johnson, then I certainly believe that it isn't making him the highest paid by a high number. Maybe by a couple hundred thousand but blowing the lid off the market? I don't think that's going to happen, I don't think the demand for a strong pass protecting RT is strong enough, I don't really think there is a team who is going to just throw all their money at Wagner. I've seen the Panthers as an option but they operate much better than that, not even the Cleveland Browns wanted to throw money at Mitchell Swhartz who was the No.2 RT in all of Football. I could honestly envision getting something along the lines of 7M per year with gaurantees exceeding any RT not named Lane Johnson, but I don't see him in that 8M nor do I see him pushing 9M. 

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

 

It's a big deal this year because the Wagner is probably the second most valuable free agent at T on the market.  As RF23 mentioned, Reiff is probably getting a LT job, but after that, who else is worth paying?  You can get guys like Clady, Okung, etc. but they're now average at best and are looking at relatively cheap deals.

That brings us to the money.  The market for RTs is currently around $6.5M for a year.  Averaged over 5 we'll say, that's $32.5M.  If someone comes in and offers $8M a year, you're looking at a jump to $40M.  With the amount of cap space out there, I don't see a team backing down from paying an extra $7.5M (estimated $4M in guarantees) to not get one of the best names on the market.

I think Wagner very well could come back.  As always, maybe I'm wrong.  I just think there's a very real possibility that he sets the market for the future.  The market is set up for him to do so, and I think the closer we get to the open of the FA market, the closer we are to losing him.

The thing is, I don't see whats so special about Wagner that he all the sudden bucks the trend for RTs. As I pointed out previously Mitchell Schwartz entered as the No.2 RT in all of Football and no one wanted to pay him above the 8-10M base salary that he asked for. He got a 6.4M per year deal from K.C and no one budged on adding 1.6M to his deal to match what he wanted. This was after Von Miller's crazy playoff run where he won SB MVP by killing teams on the right side of pass protection, something that Schwartz argued as to why he deserve more but no one bought into it, I don't see why they do now with someone that isn't the best at his position. Unless he plays LT for someone, I don't see anyone out there scrambling for Wagner over someone like TJ Lang, Kevin Zeitler, or Ron Leary, I think teams are willing to pay a good price for those guys. 

As far as the contract goes, I don't think he peaks at that $40M unless someone gets desperate, a good pass protecting RT isn't going to stop teams from killing you from the left side or up the middle. I think teams are going to value those three more than Wagner. If I had to put my own say to it, I think Wagner could get up to 7M, which puts him at about 300k more than Bulaga, and I don't anticipate the guaranteed money to be a huge deal considering what the market for a RT is in that department.

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I agree with you, the demand just hasn't been proven to be there. Honestly I could see a guy like Riley Reiff blowing the lid off the RT market but that would be another KO like situation where a team is willing to pay him as a future LT in the next year or 2. I think Wagner is a really good player and if not for the foot injury might be the best RT right now, I just think the position he plays doesn't bring great value league wide which sucks for him. There's a reason why you never really hear the term Franchise Right Tackle and i don't really see that position getting that much more important to teams right now. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see teams putting a emphasis on attacking the Guard position in FA with guys like Zeitler, Lang and Leary to strengthen their interior and just make adjustments at the RT position. But with that said, it only takes one team to feel that RT is a huge need for him and have the cap space to say we'll commit 10M to this position of need. 

I don't disagree with the notion that Wagner could set the market, but I just don't buy the idea that he will blow the lid off of it. The demand for good pass protecting OLs has always been there, but I don't see why all of the sudden a team overvalues for someone who while is a good RT is not the best in his group. Maybe he hits that 7M per year mark, which to me isn't that big of a deal considering it's 300k more than Ryan Bulaga. 

Thing is, like you said I don't see teams scrambling for the RT position. No one is really desperate nor has there been GMs screaming for good RTs in the draft, you see that with S, CB, OLB, and LT, but you don't see the same amount of emphasis on the RT position. 

Going back to the Von Miller argument, Mitchell Schwartz who was seen as the No.2 RT in the entire league used a similar argument to justify a pay-day for him and it didn't work out. That was after Miller's insane season, he didn't really have the same impact this year as opposed to last, so I don't see how teams will now realize that guys rushing from the right side all the sudden makes a RT more valuable. 

Teams want a good pass protecting RT, but more than that they would prefer a good pass protecting G/C/LT. You brought up Zeitler, and I think he gets the K.O treatment and receives a mega-deal, I would even go as far as to say he might exceed the deal that K.O received from Oakland. Teams love maulers who can pass protect. There's also Lang and Leary who are going to be well-compensated. I think that maybe a team goes 200K higher than us, but unless the difference is in millions, I don't think Wagner leaves. 

5 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I think you're wearing the purple shades here. Wagner may come back, but there's a very real possibility that he sets the market for future RTs, Lane Johnson withstanding. Don't set yourself up for disappointment. Teams have a lot of cap to spend and not many worthwhile players to spend it on.  Wagner is one of the worthwhile pieces at a position of great need for a lot of teams. 

I could be, but there are things in Wagner's case of breaking the bank that don't add up to me. It's different than even in Brandon Williams case who is elite at being a run stuffing NT and a guy who will be highly valued at that. The RT position isn't a position that's becoming more desired or in more demand unlike the center position. You don't really see the demand in RT that's recently being seen in CB, Safety, and OG positions. It's not a secret that teams rush from the right side for years, so why is it a big deal right now to have a good pass protecting RT? I could see the value of a RT market sky rocket if the demand does, but that hasn't been the case. 

2 hours ago, hn68wb4 said:

At least one source strongly disagrees that this is just us overvaluing him. I don't expect him to become the highest paid RT in the league, Lane Johnson set that mark really high, but it doesn't take him becoming the highest paid RT to qualify for "pushed over what we're willing to pay." Considering we do have a possible replacement on the roster as is, I would assume that line would be around $8.5M at the very most and I can definitely see him getting more than that. Salary cap bumped up again and there are quite a few teams desperate for literally any Oline help, Vikings for instance have a lot of cap and can afford to throw him $10M no problem, Panthers as well are in the same boat

So Wagner's contract far exceeds $8M that Mitchell Schwartz and Marcus Cannon received? I don't see how that makes a lot of sense when he's not better than neither of those players nor does he gives a team the flexibility to play LT. In regards to the report, it might seem petty, but I'm going to stay with my opinion and call bogus on it. I'll point to Eugene Monroe who thought himself that he was going to do very well on the market and even Aaron Wilson (Who is highly respected) didn't think he was going to return due to the competitive offers, he was looking for 10M but managed to do 7M. Now the cap adjustments are different but 10M a year would put him top 5 among left tackles in terms of salary. 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2014/03/eugene-monroe-unlikely-return-ravens

41 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

The difference between this FA market and that one though is that there are hardly any other viable options in FA or the draft.  Wagner is the clear top option at RT and there's no one even close to his level.  Combined with the fact that the cap is continually rising and the FA class at all positions is pretty poor, and you have a recipe for Wagner getting a top of the line offer.

Can't that be the case for a lot of guys out there though? I don't think that applies to Wagner exclusively and while he's going to enter the market at the top RT, he's not a guy that you could make the case as the top guy in his position, going back to Schwartz's case, he was a guy who was the ranked the 2nd best RT and also experienced a cap rise. Now it was a good OL class but the FA class as a whole didn't blow anyone away. It was full of guys who weren't leaving their teams. I see no reason why Wagner's contract will far exceeds his. 

If Wagner was a guy ranked outside of the top ten as an RT, would he in turn be more compensated than the top RTs in the league because he's the only capable one on the market? I don't think its much of a difference between that situation and this one, Wagner is a good RT but he's not really put in the elite category of tackles. 

47 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

As much as it hurts, I think we might have to come to terms with Wagner not being a Ravens come next year. From the sound of things there's a LOT of interest in him and I think it's a virtual guarantee that he'll be pushed over what we're willing to pay. We might be facing a similar offseason to last years. Losing our top guys but signing a couple good vets, it feels contrary to what we've always seen as Raven fans.

I don't think the offers Wagner is getting is that far away from us. I'll stay firm on the fact that he's not going to break the bank. When a guy like Mitchell Schwartz entered the FA market, he was looking for $8M-$10M per year and argued that he was blocking premiere pass rushers like Von Miller who rushed from the right side of the OL, no one budged and he got around 6.4M a year, now that did come with a signing bonus but his cap hit on a per year basis is no more than $8M per year. 

Teams are not going to overvalue RTs all of the sudden, if Wagner makes the move to LT than sure, he will get paid, but if not than I don't think he's going to leave. I could recall people thinking Eugene Monroe is a goner going into FA but what he wanted was just to test the market, he wasn't valued at the time and we kept him and what I initially thought was a steal. Different situation but its an example of guys not being valued as highly as we like to believe. 

Brandon Williams is a guy I'm having second thoughts on when it comes to remaining here, but why is he getting $20M more than Damon Harrison? He's not the better run stuffer and he doesn't offer much as a pass rusher. I think Williams value is taking on double teams and freeing the DE and OLB and even a blitzing MLB to a free run but that's one of the few things I could think of. I question the legitimacy of the 64M. 

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I think he's capable of being a every down player and a really good one. But the inconsistency factor is an big deal and as a FSU fan it's not surprising to me. Timmy could be as great as he wants to be if he improves his conditioning imo. 

I like Timmy and initially I liked him over Brandon Williams but after seeing what happened this year, I have to honestly say the guy crashed in a really bad way towards the end of the year. He was arguably the worst DL on the field during that last four game stretch he managed just one tackle. If he was consistent and had a motor that was consistent as well than he would not only be a lock to stay here but a guy that might outplay himself here. 

I don't think its going to cost a lot of money to keep Jernigan here to be honest. We would have to pay up to keep him but I don't think we're going to have to break the bank for him to remain, personally I think he's a candidate for an extension but Mosley gets first priority. 

56 minutes ago, gtalk12 said:

This is what I was thinking.....the question is what do they want for it?

I would have to believe that they would have to be blown away by the offer. The next best thing to a franchise QB is arguably a franchise pass rusher, now I think that's on even ground with a franchise LT but some would take the franchise pass rusher. Whatever it would take, it would have to be an offer so good that Tennessee can't turn it down.

3 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Who would you want that bad that would be there at 5 that you would give up next years first for? 

Myles Garrett and that's it, if by some miracle he drops to 5, and to be honest I don't think Tennessee would move from that spot if Garrett is there, they would proudly pick him. 

Though I did read somewhere that Marshall wants to sign with NYG and that makes a lot of sense. He does Inside the NFL still I think ( Correct me if I'm wrong) and wouldn't want to relocate his family for what would be the 5th time in his career. 

Well I might have to scrap that idea of keeping both because if $64M is exactly what BW could get than I can honestly say it was nice knowing you buddy lol 

2 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

 The Ravens  said alot of things this offseason but that doesn't mean everything is going to go according to plan especially with limited cap space. Of course they can work out ways to create more cap space in order to sign players they want but I think they have to be realistic  when it comes to replacing Zuttah. They say this is what you have done for me lately type league so  Mangold shouldn't be viewed as reliable   . I can't say to you right now if The Ravens sign Mangold they are getting a for sure good  starting center or a reliable one at that.  Just because Mangold is more physical than Zuttah  it doesn't mean he will be better than him. Honestly at 33 years old Mangold might find himself getting pushed around(definitely did against The Steelers last year) and  I honestly think The Ravens need to get back to what worked best.

The Ravens rushing attack hasn't been good or great since 2014 so I don't understand why wouldn't they want to get back to what worked b.  If they lose Wagner then Alex Lewis becomes  a candidate to replace him and since both Zuttah and Urschel excel in the zone blocking it not only  fits their current starting  center best but it also probably gives them answer at left guard since Urschel has played well at that position in 2014 when ever K.O was too hurt to play . John Harbaugh said they want to build around Joe Flacco then trying to build a rushing attack similar to what they did in 2014 seems like the best blue print to go by  in my opinion  and The Ravens can't pretend like they don't have the coaches to do so because Marty M, Joe D and even Greg Roman are not strangers to the zone blocking scheme. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Ravens tend to throw smoke screens but it would make zero sense to do it at OL. They've talked about creating an strong and physical OL and they hired someone in Greg Roman who aligns strongly with that. They're actively trying hard to re-sign Wagner. That leaves Zuttah as the odd-man out. 

In a what-have-you done for me lately league Mangold is more reliable than Zuttah. While he didn't have the best year we can strongly attribute that to his injury struggles, the Jets thought hard about keeping him but in the end decided getting younger and saving money was important to their future. Mangold resume is much more impressive than Zuttah and he's a better fit for what the Ravens would like to do going further. Outside of last season Mangold pound-for-pound is the better C and it's not even close. 

In terms of the run blocking, Zuttah has always been weak at that aspect, so if we want to get better there and begin to push people around, then cutting Zuttah is more logical in that aspect. The Ravens will still be committed to zone blocking but I anticipate they're going to give more looks with Roman here, I could recall Yanda saying that Zone blocking is still the main blocking system of the OL, but they mixed in some gap-power schemes. I believe that they're still a ZB OL, but they're going to mix in some gap-power plays. 

11 hours ago, hn68wb4 said:

I can't see that at all, we saw what it was like back in 2013 to have no competent center, how the oline will just fall apart without a leader in the center. I can see us parting with Zuttah next year if we have someone groomed this year, but the center draft class isn't great and aside from JC Tretter the FA market isn't any good either. We just don't save enough and there aren't any good realistic replacements available to make the cut worth it really, after the cuts that we likely already have lined up we should already have enough to sign both Wagner and Williams (though I suspect we won't keep both).

I guess we could try to line up a trade like we did to pick up Zuttah in the first place, but as much flak as Zuttah gets I don't think he's that bad compared to the alternative. And realistically we have the chance of going far next year if we can address some problems, so we should get rid of a vital piece on the line at this point.

With the way the FO and especially Harbaugh talked up the OL, I see no reason to believe we're going into next season with the same OL. Someone's gone and Zuttah makes way too much sense in that aspect. They're trying hard to keep Ricky Wagner and the other three guys are a lock to be where they are at the moment. That in effect singles out Zuttah as the only guy and they haven't even talked about him.

They're going to be very aggressive with center, they could draft one very high or even trade for one. It's one or the other, they have a plan there and we're going to see it soon. As you said, they cut AQ Shipley and traded for Zuttah, I think they can go about with the same solution but get what they want and that's someone who is a physical presence there. They talked about getting bigger, stronger and more physical on the line, none of that sounds like Jeremy Zuttah to me. Nick Mangold is a FA as well and he seems to make a lot of sense as a target for this team. 

It's the case of Zuttah being the odd-man out. The Ravens like the four guys they have and talked about changing the dynamic of the OL, that means that it must be Zuttah they were referring to when getting bigger and stronger on the OL. I think it's fair to say that this team has a plan, I don't think they're going to go about things blindly, we'll see happens but for the most part Zuttah's time is done here. 

10 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Timmy Jernigan isn't Williams' replacement. They have totally different skill sets. Now the comparable would be another low center of gravity nose tackle such as Pierce or even Henry. I believe a good rotation of Pierce, Henry and/or may be Carl Davis would be sufficient to overcome the loss of Williams. However, I wasn't questioning the importance of either Williams or Wagner. I realize they are critical to our fronts. But, I just don't want us to chase them with free agency looming. We have the 6th lowest cap room of all 32 teams. There are plenty of teams that can afford to overpay for their services and may very well do so. I just don't want us chasing these players and competing with rich teams for their services. Which is primarily why I put out ranges for them. That is fair market value for these guys based on their production value to a team. That was really my point.

No, he's not BW replacement, but Timmy Jernigan is a guy who looked like he was going to make a lot of money early on in the season when he was looking like a run stuffer and premier pass rusher. Extending Jernigan or plans to keep him here long-term would've ruled out Williams staying here by default. Highly doubtful the team pays Jernigan and Williams. 

What makes you confident that Pierce, Henry or Davis can be enough to replace Williams? I don't want to come across as rude or anything but Henry was inactive for a lot of games and didn't see the field much. Davis has been a disappointment since shining in camp  his rookie year and Pierce faded away after gaining steam. Those three don't inspire confidence that they're going to be difference makers. Maybe Pierce, but we still need to see more before we come to that conclusion. I wouldn't even bat an eye if we ended up cutting Willie Henry in TC, the guy didn't even record a stat. I sound very critical of the three but in order to very easily move on from a player like BW, you would need someone who has shown you that they can indeed do that. 

As far as the Ravens cap situation goes, they're expected to make a cap purge and free up 15M-20M in cap. That added money should certainly allow us to keep one of the Williams/Wagner. In Wagner's case I don't think he is going to break the bank. Other posters explained it perfectly but to sum up, RTs aren't as well compensated as other positions on the line, at most you're looking at a 7M per year salary for Wagner with Guarantees in the 28-30M range. The highest paid RT are close to that amount, I don't see anything from Wagner that separates him from that group of elite RTs. 

Williams is a guy I don't think will preform as great as some believe in the FA market. I think teams will look at the tape and realize that while he's a great player, he's not a pass rushing NT, and that's where the top NT/DT make their money. Still think he's important and I definitely want him here, simply because he's my preference over Jernigan who I believe might not be worth paying what he would want. 

1 hour ago, ellicottraven said:

If the offer to Williams and Wagner exceeds 8.5M and 7M respectively we are screwed for a long time to come.You can't overpay non game changer type players ever. Neither of these guys is a game changer. They are solid at their positions but that is it.

They're not game changers but they're very important to trenches. The run D collapsed the last few weeks of the season and it was the guys around BW who looked awful. Timmy Jernigan looks like a guy who may be questionable in terms of his season long effectiveness. He burnt out in a really bad way. Lawrence Guy regressed and guys on the edge opposite of Suggs couldn't hold it down to save their lives. If BW walks you're going to have to be really concerned for what's going to happen with the DL next year if the guys on the line carry their play into next season. It's also a matter of choice and right now we're going to have to decide who we'll have to pay, Brandon Williams or Timmy Jernigan and right now I would prefer BW all day long. 

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I think the key is separating the LT position from the RT position. Guards don't usually get paid as much as LTs but RT tackles just don't get big deals. Now if Wagner was an option at LT than maybe I could see that big payday that many others do. But I just don't see it. He'll be among the highest paid RTs no doubt but I don't think that number goes higher than 7M per year and 16M guaranteed at signing. Those numbers wouldn't even place Wagner among top 10 LT contracts. 

So if Wagner gets LT money, i'd be really surprised. 

Yeah I'm confident he stays. Just don't think he breaks the bank nor do I believe he's going to leave us if we're inches close to another team in salary and guaranteed money, just as long as we show Wagner we're committed to him and show interest. 

I don't see Zuttah in the team plans at all honestly. I think he's cut even if we don't sign Mangold. F.O talked about beefing up the OL and creating a physical core. They've talked up a lot about Alex Lewis, Ronnie Stanley is a potential franchise LT and Yanda is Yanda. Harbaugh talked about keeping Wagner and it sounds like he's just as big of a priority as Brandon Williams. That leaves Zuttah alone and the team hasn't said anything about him. I think he could be one of the 1st cuts made next week. 

He played plenty of Strong Safety as well but he was underwhelming there. Also as The Raven said you still have to know how to cover reguardless of where you are at, whether it was at FS or SS he did not demonstrate he could do that. I'll honestly never forget that play that he competely whiffed on against Cleveland two years ago. I think it was Taylor Gabriel who caught a deep bomb from Brian Hoyer and fell to the ground right in front of Elam, did not even get touched clearly and Elam just stands there like a statue, and lets Gabriel get up and run for an extra 20 yards. Seeing that play got me totally heated, my raw reaction was like "GUAAHHHHGHHGDGAST" are you kidding me? Like how can you let that happen?!" Whatever, thats in the past but I'll never forget just how pissed off I was