PurpleCity5

Most disappointing aspect of the Pitta situation is the amount of effort they put into TE. I think you have to live or die by those young guys at TE, it's time to move on from Pitta. 

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

We have up to $20m or so in cap space. Plenty of space plenty of time.

Bc anyone we agree with today (outside our own guys) doesnt hit our books until tomorrow which means we can still cut, restructure, rescind tenders on whoever needed to get those deals into our cap structure.

 

We're fine to do whatever we need to to get guys we want. 

With ~$10m in space we can potentially sign 2 Wagners, even at the deal he got (itd take backloaded deals which is dumb, but its possible). 

With ~$20m we could free up by cutting/extending/restructuring the Pittas, Dooms, Webb, Arringtons, etc... we could resign Williams and Juice, sign Pryor/Alshon, Tony Jefferson, and Mangold.

Theyd have to be backloaded deals again.... 

 

But just painting the picture of what we can do if the team wants to. Tons of flexibility... and the power to sign top guys if they want.

Really imagined that Marshall, and Wagner were options. Now it seems like Juice and Wagner are gone. The Ravens spent time talking to their own guys who appeared out, you have to wonder how much time they spent with others. 

Pryor and Alshon are out of the question. They're not spending upwards of 10M on someone like that. 

Mangold I could absolutely see here. 

This sucks, I really loved this board a lot. So many great convo's we all had here. I'll miss you all. 

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

We do. Rule of 51, just bc we tendered guys doesnt mean we still cant cut them, we're still trying to restructure/extend guys... and anything we negotiate isnt enforced til tomorrow.

We made offers to BWill and Wagner that combined SURELY surpassed $9m in cap hits this year. Which means their usable cap space exceeds it.

Absolutely, the Ravens still have enough cap to pull off some moves but time is running out. Some guys who they would have really like to keep are gone. 

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Oh I wasn't debating anything, or intending to at least.  Just saying why it ultimately happened.  Those are a nice bevy of names you threw out but at the end of the day, T is a black hole for a lot of teams and Wagner was the clear best option.

Yeah, I just hope this move turns into a big signing here. I would have amnesia about Williams and Wagner if we managed to pull off bringing Zeitler or Lang here. Doubtful either happens but just think of the scenarios... That said the team spoke so highly of Lewis so that factor alone might rule out either of those two. 

Just now, rmw10 said:

Has everything to do with a continually rising cap and a lack of quality options in FA and the draft.  Wagner was bound to get paid.  No one else out there really worth paying.

I really think Zeitler, Lang, Warford, and Leary are better. I would honestly take any of those four over Wagner for us. You were right though so no debating this anymore, just think FA factored huge into this, I wonder what would have happened if Cannon had entered the mix. Still think Wagner gets paid. 

I'm upset at the decision to keep Pitta. The Ravens are beating a dead horse and seriously cannot anticipate Pitta getting better going onto next year. Oh, believe me I would love to see him prove me wrong but he was very underwhelming for the most part. I honestly think he's one of the factors holding this offense back. 

Just now, rossihunter2 said:

Ironically they probably would have lowered the value of each other - the main reason Wagner is getting so much money is because of the dearth of talent at oline in FA and the draft this year

I can see that scenario, Marcus Cannon surely would've entered as the #1 RT. At the same times I think it's entirely possible Wagner still would have gotten paid. 

I suspect that BW is on the move as well. Don't think he stays here. 

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

While that's true, the backloaded contracts are also what have gotten us into this mess in the first place.

You were right about it. I was holding onto him staying because I imagined at what happened to Schwartz and literally thought that it was possible. I'm still really confused at why Wagner lucked out and Schwartz didn't. I'm sure Marcus Cannon imagined the same because he got low balled on his contract, he has to be kicking himself right now because he easily could have have made a push for 10M.

Glad we didn't pay Garcon, I don't think that deal is worth it considering he's heading towards a huge downgrade. I really hope we emerge as a suitor for Britt. 

31 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Ask Cam Newton how happy he was to have Mike Remmers in the Super Bowl against Von Miller.

I think there's a lot of impact to be had in someone who can rush on the opposite side such as a guy like DeMarcus Ware. Ware allows for Miller to have more 1v1, not have to deal with as many chip blocks or overloaded protection on the right side or which ever side he chooses to rush from. I look at it from a similar situation to ours, Doom is a great pass rusher, but he's so much better with Suggs on the other side of the field. To be honest, I don't think the left side of the OL did a good job either. I don't think most or even all of it weighs on the right side because Michael Oher was getting destroyed that day.  I personally think people discount the impact of DeMarcus Ware. Miller is a super-star but this year when Ware was out, it showed that he declined a little bit, though the sack numbers paint a different picture he went four straight games without a sack and faced constant double and triple teams.

32 minutes ago, The Raven said:

He allowed like two or three sacks, didn't he? He was getting Cam pummeled. 

Ware got 2 sacks from the left side as well. In fact the Panthers allowed 7 sacks all together, really bad game for that entire unit.

WR I want most now is Britt, I feel that he will not only be the cheapest but skill wise is the best on the market, alongside the best fit, though I have my doubts.

5 hours ago, Sami84 said:

last year he was ranked the 10th best NT at stopping the run 

and yeah..rushing the passer? not pretty..he's never posted a positive overall grade for a season in his entire career. not even 0.01

I think B.W still deserves credit though. It's huge for a team when you can stop the run on 1st and 2nd down. It's even bigger when you can completely shut down an opposing teams run game. He's not up to par with the top DL in the pass rush department, but having a guy who can take a Center and Guard and cannot be moved and stop the run is a huge deal. Thing is that the Ravens are really good at finding those type of guys so I'll put my trust in them. 

1 minute ago, allblackraven said:

Tell that to Browns (Kruger), Dolphins (Ellerbe), Bears (McPhee), Niners (T. Smith) - and that's just recent Ravens free agents. Lot more examples throughout the league.

Those contracts are beloted but here's some examples I would throw out. 

Eugene Monroe, Mitchell Schwartz, are Bryan Bulaga guys who played at a high level entering the FA and demanded huge money. These guys all made their arguement and many were valid, teams just flat out turned them down even though most of them probably needed them badly. Thing is the value of a RT position just isn't that high. It's not high enough to warrant a 10M salary. 

As far as Kruger and McPhee goes, a pass rusher is going to get paid. Especially guys like McPhee and Kruger who honestly warranted high pay days. McPhee can't stay healthy but when on the field last season he was pretty productive.

I think the value matters, a pass rusher is always going to win out over a RT nine times out of ten. The value of overpaying a OLB/WR is far greater than that of overpaying a RT. 

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

Teams have needs. Teams have cap space. Players' salaries/contracts go up every single year. Wagner is pretty good RT. There are virtually no other decent RTs in free agency. Ravens offer of $7.5M clearly wouldn't match what he's been offered by other team(s) and the difference will make him forget about any rellocation stress real quick.

Teams have needs but they know when to not pay way too much for someone. I'm sure someone needed Mitchell Schwartz but no way were they giving him 10M.

In terms of relocation, obviously that's thrown away if the difference between the Ravens and others is in millions, but if not then I think there's a decent chance he returns if the gap is minimal.  

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

A team like the ravens cant afford to look at value in such a fussy way when they have among the least talented of squads in the league. 

If the Ravens are in the troubling cap situation that they're in at the moment, then they really should pay close attention to value. What's hurting them right now is bad deals for guys who are not playing up to their deals. 

$10M for Wagner is outrageous. I really want to know who is willing to pay that much. That is nearly 4M more than the highest paid RT(Outside of Lane). If the RT market is expected to blow up in that sense, then they could go up towards being the 2nd highest compensated group in the NFL, that's a position that's not even valued as highly as others. 

I stand firm on $7M-8M and I think its possible that he returns on $7.5M if he doesn't find the stress of relocating to a new team/city and a rebuilding team worth it if the Ravens guarantees matches whomever. 

43 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

Then you pay for wagner just like they should have with KO last year.

They try to get cute and everyone here looks at it positively but the truth is that this FO has been bad at drafting and contracting for quite some time now.

If Wagner leaves for big money, it's not because they Ravens couldn't afford it, it's simply because they don't see value in overpaying for a RT. They were willing to make K.O the highest paid G in the NFL and he left because he had bigger offers, they saw a ton of value in K.O but flat out were not able to keep him. If possible I guaranteed you that the Ravens would have made a bigger push to keep K.O if they had more cap room. 

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I think I posted this before, but im starting to think we shouldnt resign Williams, Wagner or Juice.

Think about what we could do with that money in terms of bringing other guys in. All 3 are good players, love them as Ravens. But come on.... a run stuffing NT that only plays 60% of our snaps getting $9-10m???? Paying a RT who's at best a mediocre run blocker north of $8.5m??

I get people are upset at the possibility of losing them... but at the prices its looking like it will take to keep them Im starting to think I'd be more upset if we DO keep them. Yes, you want to retain your young talent.... but committing big cap figures to players at positions that dont have a premium impact just doesnt seem smart to me.

If Wagner and say Zeitler are going to get comparable contracts.... who would you rather make that offer to? Give me Zeitler all day and bump Lewis to RT.

Williams or maybe being able to get Mangold AND Marshall? Stanley, Yanda/Zeitler, Mangold, Yanda/Zeitler.... idc who the RT is. And Lewis did pretty well at LT, so im fairly confident he can get the job done at RT. Give me that line ALL FREAKIN DAY over one that looks like Stanley, Lewis, Zuttah, Yanda, Wagner.

 

These guys were part of the team that wasnt good enough. Paying them like premier players isnt going to put us over the top.

Unfortunately, cutting ties and being able to spread that money across several other FA additions are more important positions might just be the better way to go imo. Obviously this all depends on who else we'd be able to bring in with that money, but if we're able to add quality players at C, G/T, WR, CB, S, pass rush, etc... all positions with much more impact than NT/RT.... then I'm happy with the direction.

 

A little over an hour more -- strap on your seat belts. News will be coming fast and furious.

On the case of Wagner I think its good to have a great pass protecting RT, I don't think he's a mediocre run blocker either. While he's not the nastiest guy out there nor is he the best he does maintain his blocks time-to-time, I do see your point, if we're overpaying for an OL give me Zietler over Wagner in a heartbeat, but I'm afraid Zietler is the far more likely candidate for a monster payday than Wagner. 

In Williams case I can see the Ravens desperation to keep him. Timmy Jernigan and Lawrence Guy were dreadful during the final stretch, I think Jernigan went four games straight without recording a single stat. Guy on the other hand got caught over-pursuing on runs, missing gaps, and got taken out of plays time to time. If those two carry there play from that stretch onto next season and no one steps up and you lose BW, then the run D might be in big trouble. Still don't think its worth it because I'd rather just try my best to find a replacement but I could see the Ravens case for pushing hard to keep both. 
 

I look at it from a value standpoint honestly. What's the value of paying Wagner 10M+? Not that great if that RT isn't a game-changer like a LT or even LG can be. I honestly can see the value in someone who can stuff the run, but in 40% of plays that he's not on the field, it can honestly hurt a team. With that said, if it were such a big problem, then I don't think the Ravens would be that interested in bringing BW back. There may not be value in stuffing NT, but there is certainly value in being able to stop 1st and 2nd run plays. 

I think we're going to be really surprised. Either Wagner and Williams get a monster payday, or maybe they don't and return here. 

I feel like these guys are stating the obvious and I've seen this before. Yes, if guys hit the FA market its very possible the Raven lose them... 

50 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I think that's exactly what it is. The Ravens can only do so much with their offer because hey aren't gonna outbid themselves. Of course you run the risk of losing the players if they hit the open market but you just can't overpay for a RT only and a NT regardless of how important those players are, they just aren't big enough difference makers. Truth is, you can find adequate replacements for those positions without much effort. Of course you want to keep them but you're only going to give them a fair offer and if another team wants to overpay then you allow them to watch. I think both Juice and Wagner return but someone may get crazy with BWill and the Ravens won't hesitate to use Peirce/Davis and probably address the position in the draft as well. 

 

That's not true, If reports are accurate, the Ravens offered KO 8.5M per year that would have made him the highest paid Guard in the NFL at the time. These 10M per contracts for Decastro and Long weren't signed to after KO's deal. What the Ravens weren't willing to and certainly couldn't afford to do was pay KO left tackle money to stay. So much like the guys this year, KO's people heard it was much more money to be had on the open market and they went for it. KO's people were right in betting on the open market because he plays a position of great value and also seen as an option for arguably the most important position on the Oline in LT.  I personally don't think the same will hold true for Wagner. 

I wouldn't be shocked to hear Williams signing with another team tomorrow. But in Wagner's case, I think there will be more negotiations between he and the Ravens because even if someone offers more than the Ravens, it won't be a huge gap between the 2 offers and the Ravens will probably be willing to match is my guess. 

That's my opinion on Wagner, I think he's an important player because its better to have a great RT than a bad RT but with that said, I think Alex Lewis or who ever the replacement is might not be a big drop off considering that the value of a RT isn't really at an All-time high right now. 

On the subject of K.O, I just translated what I recalled, I didn't realize that DeCastro and Long's deals were signed after K.O's, what you did say makes a lot of sense and I might be wrong about that. 

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I disagree.  I think it's a classic case of funny money vs real money. Funny money is the money that you think might be available vs what you know is guaranteed. I'd be shocked if the Ravens didn't offer Wagner 7M or so which would make him the highest paid RT outside of Johnson easily. However if Wagner's people think they could get even more on the open market, why sign the contract now? There have been reports of possibly 10M per for Wagner so even if that's slightly true if you were his agent getting 8% or whatever, would you let him sign now or test the Market?

Oh I agree, I absolutely think that's possible but at the same time, when the Ravens say competitive offers, what do they mean by that? They weren't willing to make K.O the highest paid guard in the NFL and they said that the offers they gave to K.O were defined as "competitive". I really want to know the Ravens definition of competitive. When the Ravens say competitive, I think it means that they gave him offers that align for what a great RT makes on the market, that being between the $6-7M range, so its possible they offered him 7M or somewhere below that mark, that said that makes no sense because if you're that far apart with Wagner, why not just close the gap and prevent him from hitting FA? Maybe the Ravens envision a scenario similar to Schwartz where his market value decreased and they gain more leverage than previously had. 

Personally, I think that no one is offering him $10M, but the reports out there must have pushed him to test FA, that said I don't think he even passes the 8M mark and I don't think the Ravens offered him more than $7M at most.

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

These reports by Zrebiec which i assume everyone is basing their opinions on, don't suggest that the Ravens are losing any of the 3 UFAs. I only shows what everybody already knew, those guys will test their value on the market and they're smart to do so. The Ravens will never be foolish enough to negotiate against themselves. The agents for Williams, Wagners and Juice have all the leverage right now. The common thought is that there is so much more money on the market and agents would be foolish not to use that against the Ravens. 

I'll continue to use Wagner as example. If the Ravens are offering to make him the highest paid RT outside of Johnson at 7M per but Wagner's people think there's a real shot at getting 10M on the open market, why would they sign now? It's just not smart. At the very least you know the Ravens are willing to go to 7M and they really want to keep you so if you were wrong about the open market and no teams are willing to go much higher than the 7M, the agent knows the Ravens offer is likely to still be on the table. On the flip side The Ravens would be foolish to raise their offer just because the agent thinks his client will be a huge hit on the open market. You're only 1-2 days away from seeing what your market value really is, so why wouldn't you test it unless the Ravens do what the Cheifs did with Berry and overpay just to keep him off the market. Which was smart by KC because Berry is a game changer, either Williams or Wagner are. 

Those Zrebiec tweet just indicate that the Ravens won't be able to keep those players off the open market, which Harbs basically said himself. We've offered competitive offers and those guys will do their due diligence to test their market is what Harbs said. These tweets are written in opinion. They just know that other teams are interested. Again I go back to the Schwartz situation this time last year. At the combine 8-10 teams were reported to be interested, so Schwartz turned down a 7M offer from the Browns because surely he'd get more on the market being such a hot commodity right? No, because no team was willing to make the 7M the Browns offered and when he tried to go back and accept the Browns offer they pulled it off the table so he had to settle for less. So when we see Zrebiec tweet that the ship has sailed on Wagner what does that mean? Nothing more than he won't sign before the market opens but he still has to be offered more than the Ravens did which unless Zrebiec knows contract details or have spoken to other teams or the agent, he's just giving his opinion. 

The Mitchell Schwartz example is exactly what I've been pointing to as well. He was seen as the an elite tackle and No.2 overall RT on the market and no one really went crazy for him, this was after Von Miller dominated RT en route to his SB MVP award. 

What I've noticed is that a lot of these reporters come to the conclusion that just because someone is hitting the market, that he's gone. I could recall that when Eugene Monroe hit the FA market a lot of guys including Aaron Wilson came to the conclusion that he was gone. That really didn't happen. Truth is these guys would be foolish not to test the market, unless Wagner/Williams were so turned off by what they were offered that they didn't even want to listen to the Ravens offers and decided to just leave it at the forgone conclusion that they're out. 

I think the Ravens are going to wait it out and see what the value of Wagner and Williams is. Maybe teams won't really value a run stuffing NT who isn't a game changer as a pass rusher, or maybe they like the guard prospect more than the RT. I think it's the waiting game between the Ravens and Wagner/Williams. 

12 hours ago, allblackraven said:

Why do you refuse to accept that the Ravens wanted to do that but couldn't, due to low cap space?

Wagner was always going to be in a great position in this FA, as long as he was playing well. On one side solid team and little bit of a name already built in Baltimore, on the other lousy tackle market and plenty of teams with need and free $$. Who wouldn't test the market?

I don't think cap space is the problem because they're trying to keep Brandon Williams who costs much more than Wagner. So unless they are trying to keep both Williams and Wagner or have Williams as the higher priority, then I personally think the Ravens did not offer Wagner to be the highest paid RT in the league. If they done so he would have re-signed already.