Minionhunter

Thanks for a great time. Last one left please turn off the light.

Yes bring Jim Zorn back If they didn't get Rick to be OC, I think this would be the best move they could make. But that personality conflict thing again, not what is best for Joe [get Zorn], but they won't get him again to limit personality conflict with other coaches.

Don't forget the Ravens did draft a LT #1 and a LG/LT #4. Plus drafted a WR #1 the year before. They are trying, ya have to give them credit for that. If it wasn't for injuries to the OL it would have been pretty good. And the penalties Sami, and the penalties.... The drive killing penalties wiping out first down after first down and huge gains. Offensive holding again. I wanted to rip my eyeballs out in nearly every single game because of the penalties on the O line. Also, Dennis Pitta turning into a matador's cape every time he was called to block someone. Someone called him an atrocious blocker, I say that gives a bad name to every atrocious blocker who is actually trying to block (like Zuttah) but is constantly beaten. Dennis looked like he literally just said, "Nah, you just run on by me and deck Joe this time, I'll dodge out of your way so I won't hinder you in any way of getting a bone crushing sack." Our Probowl center - lol. Didn't we send Sharece Wright to the probowl as a corner? - whoever said that the probowl is for everyone who likes participation trophies was spot on. Kicker, longsnapper, punter, fullback - guys who have the lowest paying but most essential jobs on the team - AND young talent (going for the first time) - they tend to be the honest and deserving awarded/attendees at the probowl. IMHO

Well he's certainly a lot better than he was in, say, 08-10, but I don't think he's that much better than he was, say, 4-5 years ago. But then again, I'm not sure there's many QBs that doesn't apply to either. I don't think Drew Brees is really any better than he was, say, 8 years ago. Aaron Rodgers doesn't look any better to me this year than he did in like 2011. In fact, some QBs even become worse. I think QBs take an obvious leap in that 3rd-5th year range, and then every year afterwards they ideally just become a little bit better. And that is with a consistent offensive system. Joe has had none. When was he at his best? When he was at the end of Cam's system just Caldwell calling it. Even SSS said he was confused on plays because the terms were all screwed up and that was just his route, think about the QB's head on the 5th system in 5 years....

It's great when an argument includes how stupid everyone that doesn't agree with you is 😀 But I will throw you a bone to make your case. Please go ahead and name 15-20 teams that would trade their starting QB for the 23rd best QB in Flacco. I can see about 5 or 6. Keep in mind that they will be taking him with his 3rd highest salary in the league. A number people keep saying will be dwarfed every year by new higher contracts but I'm not seeing it actually happen. It is starting to happen now, but will accelerate through the end of his contract. The assumption is that the salary cap will continue to increase (not accelerate, but just the steady predicted increases). It will take off when Carr, Mariota and Winston need to be redone.

Ravens were ranked #15 in the league in dropped passes. Right in the middle. Every team has dropped passes. You are making the point. Ravens #15 in dropped passes, 8-8 record. Go Figure.

"But I enjoy carving out my own path and not listening to what people say I can and I can't do." - John Urshel Yep, spoken like a true research scientist. He is headed for academia when all is said and done. Bet. Please note, I say that without even a hint of sarcasm, it is just the way with many (but not all) academic researchers I know.

Even with Julio being a stud, it cripple their development. Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez - how does that team not win more than 1 play-off game in 8 years with those guys in their prime? You're memory is fading.....Shanahan signed with the Falcons on Jan 18. On Jan 11th, the day after our play-off loss to the Pats, Kubiak said he was staying in Baltimore. The Broncos asked to interview Kubiak on Jan 15 and Kubiak left on Jan 18th. We couldn't have had Shanahan. And Shanahan's offense was horrible last year even with Julio. Let's see how good the 49ers are next year with him at the helm.... Thank you very much for posting the timeline. I knew there were technically like 2 days in there (you correctly point out 3), but even if we knew the 11th Gary was gone, we still had no shot at Kyle, the Falcons had already all but locked him up and were working on the contract details.

Amen. Center, which was a huge strength when Birk was here, has been a weakness since he retired. I, Big time, wanted us to get Mack. I am fast losing faith with "In Ozzie we trust". In fact, I think that I, actually, Have lost faith with it. Just too many high round draft choice misses. That, and what I've come to believe is his failed strategy of hoarding mid round draft choices. I've come to believe that he has to move to a quality verses quantity philosophy in the draft, but with his all too often whiffs in those early rounds, I'm not so sure that he can be successful with that either. I am Not a Flacco basher but, after watching Matt Ryan, I've come to believe that Ozzie should have listened to Bisciotti and moved up for Ryan instead of insisting that Flacco was the right guy for us. After years of denying it, I'm now at the point where I believe that Ryan is the better QB of the two. But yeah, I still remember his agent saying that we could lock up a probowl center who will be healthy and dominant in the prime of his career. Then this year watched as teams like the Falcons and Patriots just outright robbed first round talent from Cleveland for nothing or next to nothing. Huh, which teams are in the super bowl? I'm saying it now as a joke because I'm just noticing it as I write this, but look who took Cleveland's castoffs and notice when they are playing. I wish there were a few more chances to rob them. It is why their moneyball approach in the NFL won't work, you can't replace elite first round talent with a bunch of low round picks, and especially not immediately without a good development program.

Amen. Center, which was a huge strength when Birk was here, has been a weakness since he retired. I, Big time, wanted us to get Mack. I am fast losing faith with "In Ozzie we trust". In fact, I think that I, actually, Have lost faith with it. Just too many high round draft choice misses. That, and what I've come to believe is his failed strategy of hoarding mid round draft choices. I've come to believe that he has to move to a quality verses quantity philosophy in the draft, but with his all too often whiffs in those early rounds, I'm not so sure that he can be successful with that either. I am Not a Flacco basher but, after watching Matt Ryan, I've come to believe that Ozzie should have listened to Bisciotti and moved up for Ryan instead of insisting that Flacco was the right guy for us. After years of denying it, I'm now at the point where I believe that Ryan is the better QB of the two. Matt Ryan plays in a dome with elite WR and TE his whole carrear and only now is he getting to the superbowl. Do you really think he could have done that in Baltimore with the WR cast that Joe has had? How many drops in the endzone can you count in playoff games that cost us trips to the super bowl? Think Ryan is who he is without Julio Jones, Roddy White, and that amazing TE who retired that I can't remember his name now? How does Ryan do in the cold and the wind? Meh, dome team QB with crazy WR/TE talent, plus a great OC and OL. So many people discount how much a factor the OL is when judging the QB. Lets chat again next year after we look at the Ravens OL when they are not being crippled by Castillo. Those stats are all the proof needed that his dismissal this year was long overdue.

What people should be debating is if we should have gone after Alex Mack when his agent was pushing us to do so. Either the first time when he stayed (Browns kept him on matched offer) or the second time.

yes, especially that last paragraph. When will people stop this nonsense with Shanahan replacing Gary. Kyle was already hired by Atlanta by the time Gary informed John he was leaving. There was no way we could have gotten Kyle. Anyone spouting this is revisionist history. Yes, it would have been great to get him, but we didn't have a shot due to the timing of Gary leaving and Elway blindsiding John and the Ravens. We could have and should have gotten someone other than Trestman, but we didn't have a shot at Kyle.

NFL parity in the regular season, only the most profitable franchises are allowed into the super bowl. The Ravens were an anomaly.

Hester has said he blamed injuries for his caprophagic performance with us, but I still remember him saying he was fine and finally healthy when he got here. He was like shaq with the celtics, just stealing.

Church! That is actually my main issue with Flacco. Money vs performance. If he was to make even 2mil less per season (avg between 20-21M per season) I wouldn't be all up in his grill. Somehow I think you would still be all up in high s grill. Anyone who blames Joe for his contract should remember that he was ready to take 15 million per year and the Ravens were hung up over 1 million dollars so they, Ravens management, are the ones you should direct that anger towards.

Steelers Patriots game: I'm rooting for Tomlin to try and trip a pats player and some assistants to punch some patriots players who wander onto their sideline, while at the same time for more and deeper Patriots cheating to be exposed irrefutably on national television. When life gives you lemons, make lemoncello

I don't know how you can say Weddle is overpaid, he was THE reason why our secondary turned around. Best FS we have had since Reed left, another field general.

So you're saying that in retrospect, the Ravens won the offseason. Huh. I thought the Bills won the offseason.

Yep, he definitely chilled me out. He said nothing he could say would change minds, maybe not, but the way he said it and the manner in which he presented his decisions certainly changed my mind from anxious to relaxed. I'm down to just baffled by keeping Castillo now.

I'm surprised Harbs didn't do his research on the guy before hiring him. We could've had a smoother transition from Kubiak into a similar scheme had we hired Kyle Shanahan, but Harbs was enamored of Trestman's "genius" to retain Kubiak's terminology and "improve" his offense. The result was a shambles, and Marty didn't do much to improve it. Our passing game essentially served as a running game, since the routes were so short and called so frequently. Unfortunately, a short passing game doesn't set up play action, and it clearly didn't set up a deeper passing game. No threat of a deep ball is a waste of Joe's talents, and the speed of Perriman and Wallace. As for the O-Line, scheme is the first culprit, then technique, then talent. With the 8-8 team of 2013, we passed like crazy and couldn't run the ball with an O-Line essentially the same as the SB (and that was with KO). The following year, we turned a journeyman RB into a pro-bowler with essentially the same line. Now, we are back to ineffectiveness. I'd like to see Roman come in and Castillo ("Run Game Coordinator / O-Line Coach") let go, since Juan seems to be the next accountable common denominator in our run game woes. Meet need to sweeten the pot for Roman if the Browns are offering him the QB Coach position. Kyle was gone/alreay hired before Gary left, so we couldn't have gotten him.

I was pretty reassured by Steve Bisciotti. "I understand that nothing I say today is going to change opinions.” - Maybe not sir, but they way in which you said it and how you presented your points was reassuring. To all those doubting Joe, remember he won the super bowl MVP in year 5 of Cam's system (though Caldwell was running it at the time). Since then he has not had a stable system. Joe reads defenses just fine, it is the lack of stability that leads to him not being able to also add a look off or pump fake on plays. Also when he runs the hurry up on his own, calling his own plays he seems to do just fine (but not when plays are being called in to him slowly from the sideline during the hurryup like MM did this year). Also I think those people are forgetting all the perfectly placed game winning catches that were dropped by his receivers. By TJ Whosahasbeen and Boldin in the playoffs vs. the steelers when they won. Lee Evans (that might be a traumatically repressed memory) followed by Cundiff. The drops in the Steelers game this year by a few players. The numerous drops by Perriman (who seems to need the ball thrown into the most difficult to catch places to make a catch while unable to catch easy passes). During his down streak, the one common factor was the horrid line play, and the one common denominator was Juan Castillo. I don't like keeping MM, but I understand it. I don't understand, at all, keeping Castillo for a minute longer with the data we have on what has happened to the line and run game under his direction.

I don't like this move to keep MM in the least. The stats lie, just like they lie with Pees, but I've seen progression there. I've not seen anything from MM to make me think he will do anything better next season, unless they change the offense (AGAIN, which they said they don't want to do, they want to keep consistency). They abandoned the deep ball, running the ball, and play action - all of which Joe excels with. So they took away his strengths. They make it super easy on the defense, they can stop anything they try. The only thing I can think of is that Gary said he was stepping away for a year and then may come back in a limited role, and they figure they can get him back if this fails. Only way this makes sense. However given that they are trying it, I don't give them enough credit to even be thinking that right now. I mean, every single year you let Castillo run the O-line, we have a 0.500 or a loosing season and the line stinks and the running game stinks. We even have an exception in the series where he was "fired by promotion" and the line looked great and the running game was amazing. Good lord, what more do you need to see where the problems are coming from? Anyone notice the Patriots changed O-line coaches last year and their line fell apart? They begged their retired coach to come back and with nearly the same players they have a great O-line. You know what Yanda said he liked the best about Castillo in an interview? That he was a grinder. He had nothing positive to say about anything other than he worked hard. Well, working hard is great, but you also need to teach and coach. A good O-line coach can make the line better, a bad one can just work hard.

LOL! Some pool company owner db's had a ferrari they trashed hauling pool repair stuff around in, it was technically a company car. I guess only in Baltimore.

Headline: Black Tuesday in Baltimore! No one was fired! - Read all about it!

I agree Minionhunter. Also, I think Harbs has increasingly had more influence over the draft in the last five yrs or so, which may point to the ineffectiveness of our latest draft classes. I posted this in another thread that I think is worth taking a second look: "I posed the question I did earlier in the thread about how much impact Harbs actually has in the overall draft process. When I was reading and researching to find out as much as I could about how our draft strategy works and who is the most influential I went back as far as I could so that I could see if there had been any major trends and/or shifts in our draft strategy, especially since Harbs arrived to see if our recent down trend in the last five years or so could be traced to Harbs' influence. Personally, I thought there had been and from what I read it would seem to indicate that this could be possible. Here are some of the better sources I read that can give you good insight into our draft process and how it has evolved through the years, and you and others can draw your own conclusions: 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/sports/football/19ravens.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 2013: http://grantland.com/features/bill-barnwell-baltimore-consistent-winning/ 2013: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000212663/printable/whos-ireallyi-in-charge-afc-north-hierarchies-run-the-gamut 2016: http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/02/01/lombardis-way/a-shift-in-the-ravens-war-room/ 2016: http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/10/18/lombardis-way/the-heat-is-on-for-harbaugh/ Here are two good articles that let you know about Harbs' philosophies: 2014: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/super-bowl-winning-coach-makes-the-most-of-each-moment 2016: http://www.ndinsider.com/football/notebook-harry-hiestand-s-influence-pays-draft-dividends/article_f86a17c2-0e81-11e6-b260-a3f63e6e91f8.html These articles have a lot of similarities and some differences, but they do give a good overall impression as to the draft strategy. Some folks may be familiar with the sources already, but when read all together they draw a definitive picture. The article from the National Catholic Register which was a Q & A, pretty much sums up Harbs' approach to how he views the draft as evidenced by the quotes below: "After you got back from Afghanistan, you went to the NFL Combine in Indianapolis. Is the combine really necessary? Do you get to learn things about players that you didn’t already know? At the combine, the scouts are mostly rounding out their knowledge of players they’ve already studied a lot. However, coaches are a different story, since we are just beginning the evaluation process on this draft class. Coaches can learn a great deal by seeing the players up close at the combine. We start with that information and build on it up until the draft in May. "You didn’t need to look for any kickers, did you? No, certainly not. Justin Tucker is a tremendous kicker and young man. He exemplifies what we look for in players. There’s the obvious necessity of physical strength and skills, but above and beyond those, we look for mental characteristics. Those can make or break a draft pick. Work ethic, decision-making skills and interest in team unity are some of the things that go to make up what we call that “football intelligence.” This outweighs physical qualities 3 to 1." Very interesting and insightful as to what he values most in a player, I'd say! I have more questions than answers, lol. If Ozzie has been so successful with the "right player, right price" mantra that emphasizes the "evaluating and valuing players" strategy so well over his tenure as the Ravens GM, as his drafting and free agency record suggests, then why the dip in the draft over the last five yrs. give or take? The outlier to that question could point to Harbs. Once Harbs' won a SB in accordance with his record, did he feel that gave him more leverage to step in and influence the draft? If Biscotti wanted the scouts and coaches to work together, unlike they didn't do well under Billick, could it be that Harbs gets the ear of Biscotti more than Ozzie? Obviously, something isn't working because this team lacks an identity imho...are we a defensive team or an offensive team...and if offense is it run or pass? Whatever the issues are, how can you stack a draft board when you don't have a clear vision of what you want the team to be? I would tend to agree with you ellicottraven, let the scouts scout and the coaches coach! This would only be a problem if the coach can't coach the team that is drafted, lol." That is some nice work Grapple. My wonder on that is the influence Harbs has over Ozzie. IMHO Ozzie calls the shots, no one tells him what to do, but he can be talked up or down on someone and that goes back and forth with Harbs all the time. I'm calming down about things, but I'm going to be extremely concerned if we don't change OC again. Marty is not the guy, not even close. If we don't get Rick and crew, we need to turn over every single rock to find the next guy. Be it from college or the pros there is someone who can fix this show and creatively adapt in game when needed.