BlueHenToRaven

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

I meant he will eventually be axed, not immediately. And I see Boyle moving to more of a receiving FB position. And any and all players have a chance to be great....

Well if you mean eventually...  Crockett Gilmore is the most likely to leave after this year because his contract is up.  I dont see Williams or Boyle being let go before their contracts are up as long as Boyle can stay off the suspension list and they both stay healthy.  I wouldn't necessarily use the label "axed" to describe a player not being resigned after his contract is up though.  And unfortunately not everyone that makes it to the NFL can be great, but I'm sure that's what their mothers tell them.

Actually anyone who makes it can be great.... Its about talent, work ethic and what you put into the game. You put the time in early on, you can be great. I guess most people probably thought Brady wouldn't be great either, but he has put a lot of time into what he does, before during and after the season. Work ethic goes a long way

  19 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  53 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  3 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  4 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are.

2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things.

Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense.

okay, speaking of going off topic. Were going on about tight ends, hence everything I have said. I promise you that the saints don't throw under 5 yards to their tight ends and hope he gets enough YAC to get a first down. That may have worked with Cooks and Snead but I guarantee not for the tight end.

I concur that their D/ST is trash, but you said that they succeed by dumping and getting a lot of YAC. Well over 50% of Drew Brees passing yards were yards in air rather than YAC. In fact, only 4 QBs had a higher % of YAC vs Yards in air. Stafford, Smith, Bradford and Eli. And actually, Flacco had few yards in air per attempt than Brees, meaning Brees has more success throwing the ball down field. He has almost 2800 yards in the air as opposed to 2300 YAC. To me, it seems the saints have more success throwing the ball downfield more.

Dumping only works when you have quick receivers. Expect that number to drop without cooks

1. No, because the Saints use TEs the same way as we do... in the middle of the field as a last option.

That's the whole point. I don't consider the Saints TEs chain movers, just like I don't consider our TEs chain movers either.

Based on what I saw last season, they're catching passes and not getting much yardage compared to what others in the league do. That's the point. That's part of the reason a healthy player is asked to take a paycut.

2. I wasn't comparing Brees to Flacco for one season, because everybody knows last seasons Ravens team took very few shots down the field. That's not even the type of offense we want to run, and its certainly not indicative of the types of offenses we've run in the past.

Okay, clearly we wont see eye to eye on this subject. In my eyes, you avoid any facts that I give to support my opinion (beings that this whole thing is about TE's and you fail to speak about tight ends when referring to low yards in the air to everyone except TE's), as I'm sure I am the same way in your eyes (about whatever you continuously bring up). Beings that neither of us want to sit on this forum all day, I will just end the back and forth. Good day to you sir and GO RAVENS!

  10 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  22 minutes ago, J.O.14 said:

  47 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, b93333 said:

  3 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  4 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

Pitta did take a pay cut.

article link? Mustve missed that one

I posted it in my response below.

I saw, that's my mistake. You all were right about that

  35 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, b93333 said:

  2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  3 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  4 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

Pitta did take a pay cut.

article link? Mustve missed that one

  16 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  40 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  59 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are.

2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things.

Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense.

okay, speaking of going off topic. Were going on about tight ends, hence everything I have said. I promise you that the saints don't throw under 5 yards to their tight ends and hope he gets enough YAC to get a first down. That may have worked with Cooks and Snead but I guarantee not for the tight end.

I concur that their D/ST is trash, but you said that they succeed by dumping and getting a lot of YAC. Well over 50% of Drew Brees passing yards were yards in air rather than YAC. In fact, only 4 QBs had a higher % of YAC vs Yards in air. Stafford, Smith, Bradford and Eli. And actually, Flacco had few yards in air per attempt than Brees, meaning Brees has more success throwing the ball down field. He has almost 2800 yards in the air as opposed to 2300 YAC. To me, it seems the saints have more success throwing the ball downfield more.

Dumping only works when you have quick receivers. Expect that number to drop without cooks

  2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Easy on that Blue Hen drank. Boyle has the chance to be great? I think he has a chance to be good and I think he will be a big contributor to this team, but using the term great is a bit over the top. It is extremely unlikely that we would cut Maxx. He would have to have an absolutely terrible camp for the FO to release a second rounder in his 3rd year. Even though he has only played 1 year that one year was much more impressive than Art Browns first 2 and we kept him a third year. You cant just write him off because he was injured last year and your a Delaware fan. I know its hard to think back that far but he showed promise in his rookie season...He actually made some really spectacular catches while working with 3 different QBs. He actually has more receptions than Boyle who has played more games. Not that, that necessarily means anything. I think they will both be on the team and they compliment each other well. Williams is your more athletic pass catching TE and Boyle is more of your blocking TE who I expect to take over a lot of Juices blocking duties. But they are both well rounded guys and should be able to contribute this year.

I meant he will eventually be axed, not immediately. And I see Boyle moving to more of a receiving FB position. And any and all players have a chance to be great....

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, b93333 said:

  2 hours ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long.

If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt?

2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know.

Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season.

And then he was asked to take a significant paycut.

I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to.

he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too

  31 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  37 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  48 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, Raven1995 said:

  3 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

Probably many of them.

But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count.

So what's the point?

I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that.

The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league.

okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them...

  12 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  59 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%.

In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game.

If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L.

And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion.

Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted.

okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many

  1 hour ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  2 hours ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker.

37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field.

  16 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  37 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  55 minutes ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

I think he had the lowest percentage in the league of first downs per catch... He's catching everything but still not moving very well.

look it up, its not even close. He isn't near the worst

  37 minutes ago, BlueHenToRaven said:

  55 minutes ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  1 hour ago, Raven1995 said:

  1 hour ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season.

Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass.

Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55).
And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends.

  8 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  15 minutes ago, Raven1995 said:

  59 minutes ago, RavensDE said:

Are people really that upset we didn't take a WR?

WR's generally take a year or two to adjust to the pros and are at high risk of not panning out compared to other positions. There was no offensive savior here. We had a great draft by all accounts. People give us B's because they feel we needed offensive talent, but say we got great value at every pick. If we are depending on our fresh out college pass catchers to save us we are not a top flight organization. If we are getting the best players we can out of the draft and patching short term holes in free agency we are setting the best course for long term success.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense.

I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away?

There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing.

We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league.

Times change. Teams change.

We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive.

If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too.

I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended)

do not need a 1st round receiver to win it all. need receivers that are hungry for the ball and can suit up every week and a oc and receivers coach that are good

I agree. Look at the top ranked receivers over the past few years, OBJ, Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Jordy Nelson, Julio Jones etc.. What two things do they have in common?
1.) They have extremely high receiving yards per year and their QB's put up a lot of passing yards
2.) With the exception of Jordy Nelson (from many years ago) none of these receivers make their teams win a superbowl. Look at the golden team, the patriots. Who is their best receiver? Edelman who definitely wasn't a first rounder. The pats are able to use smart playcalls and "hungry" receivers to win. As well as a balanced offense with a running ability. Same as the Seahawks a few years back. They had a good ground game and a good defense.

Point is, they didn't rely on a big receiver to get them a championship. They are balanced offensive teams with a good defense. Well, I believe our defense will be top 5 and hopefully our line can hold up and we get mangold. I also believe Marty wont make it for very long as OC.

I think Mangold will suit up for us next year. He hasn't signed anywhere else and the report a few weeks ago stated that the sides would continue communicating. He hasn't been signed yet by any other team, which gives me hope. Hopefully he can be similar to Matt Birk. I like the idea of starting Siragusa at LG, moving Yanda back to the right and putting Lewis at RT. If Mangold also signs, I like the prospect of having that O-line. Im not too confident in Jensen or Urschel, until they prove me wrong that is. And im, like most of us here, hoping Q comes back. If not though, what about Vincent Jackson? I think he is still a FA and he is more reliable than any receiver we have now. I also believe Cruz can still produce in a West Coast system, so maybe give him a try? Just some thoughts.

2nd round picks that I wouldn't completely hate"
-Zach Cunningham, ILB
-JuJu or Zay. WR
-Cam Robinson or Forrest Lamp, OL

3rd Round
-Kupp WR (if one isn't taken before)
-Tim Williams, pass rusher
- Then either the best available guard or tackle (Alex Lewis can move to RT or stay at LG)

I feel like Tim Williams is a lock if still available

Everyone seems to hate on this pick. I personally don't mind it. Don't get me wrong, I was really hoping for Foster, but who would you have rather taken? Top 3 graded WR were taken in the top 9 picks, so we couldn't address that need. Beings that Cam and Lamp are still on the board, they clearly weren't worth the 16 overall pick, especially since teams that need o-line help (giants, dolphins) passed on them. Heck even the Broncos took Bolles before these guys. Who's to say that they wont be on the board when we pick again (doubtful unfortunately, but still a chance) So, at 16, we didn't have a WR left, the o-line options weren't graded very high, for any team, we could have taken Taco or Tak but injury reasons and the fact that Tak was a one year wonder makes people hesitate. So now WR, O-line and and pass-rusher are off the board.

I feel the best options at this point are Foster, trade back to get more picks, or take best player available. And for those of you who didn't read the article, recently, the "draft gurus" have put Humphrey as the #2 corner on the board, behind only lattimore. That's high praise because talent wise, conley is really good, but clearly has off the field problems at the moment. And everyone complaining about this pick are the same people who complained that we didn't have depth last year when jimmy went down. Well, now we have depth, talented depth imo. And he won't be covering the all-pro recievers that everyone brings up by himself. Jimmy generally takes care of them and if not, we have safety help.

So, my question is, who would you have taken instead of Humprhey that deserved to be #16 and fills an area of need. The only name that comes to mind is Rueben Foster. Or trade back, pick up some picks and draft O-line or I really liked Watt in the mid to late 20's.

48 minutes ago, b93333 said:

Humphrey was the lowest rated non-QB taken on day one. Clearly Ozzie had him rated a lot differently than everyone else. I hope for the sake of the Ravens it works out but it's hard to see how this was a good move given all the talent they passed on.

There were plenty of "draft guru's" who had him rated top 20. I think it was kiper that had him rated as the #2 corner and the number 14 player overall. Who exactly had him rated lower than the offensive linemen and the later picks?