Halshayeji

Webb should not be released unless a better option is signed! Redoing his and Wallace deals could free up 5-6 mil in cap space for 2017. Same with zuttah, if we have an upgrade then great. If not then keep your pro bowler on a cheap contract.

everyone else on that list is as good as gone. Also add Watson to the list and that's 35 million in free cap to work with.

in Ozzie I trust

Just for the purpose of objectivity, no price is too expensive for a franchise QB. So if the Ravens traded a whole draft class for Ryan then yes it would have been a good move. Turns out we didn't have to and landed Flacco but that's all in hind sight. 

On February 17, 2017 at 11:03 PM, gtalk12 said:

 

In my opinion? No

ok.......

So who in your opinion is elite? 

On February 17, 2017 at 6:47 PM, fusuymada said:

Juszczyk has been terribly underutilized. Guy does everything and could have been put into the TE rotation as well. He will go somewhere else and be a playmaker and we will sit and wonder why we don't have playmakers.

While I agree that Juice is underutilized, I wouldn't go as far as "terribly" I don't want to see him as a TE because he's 6'1 and probably won't spite his skillset very well. I would like to see him used more often on third and short and maybe block when it's an obvious passing down. 

I absolutely agree, loosing juice would be a very under rated loss that would hurt this team. 

6 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Looks like they're both going to get a ton of money. I think someone is going to unload a ton of money on Jefferson, which is ridiculous. The guy has 2 picks in 63 career games. I am a fan of Gilmore, and it would be excellent to sign him. But if he's asking for Josh Norman money, that might be tough. I'm starting to think Trumaine Johnson might be a better investment. He'll be cheaper, and he might actually be better. They came into the league at the same time, yet Johnson has played in more games and has more picks. Plus it doesn't look like he'll get tagged. I think trading for Marshall and signing Johnson would make this team way better, and not only for next year. Not to mention signing Johnson would give us a lot more flexibility in the draft. That way, instead of having to take a corner in round 1, maybe we could move up a few spots and grab Mike Williams or Fournette. So many different ways to go about things.

Wow. That would be a 10/10 offseason regardless of what we do in the draft

16 hours ago, omar586 said:

Williams is replaceable, pierce showed he can pressure up the middle, Williams is limited when comes to pass-rushing, run D on the other hand Williams excels, davis or that michigen U guy needs to step up.

yes, Pierce is a better pass rusher but theyr are both extreemly limited pass rushers as Pierce had 2 total sacks all year. It's not their job or really a knock on them if they don't get 10 sacks a year. Heck if Williams ever did get close to 10 sacks he'd ask for Suh money lol

7 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

I agree 100%. And getting a "top CB or WR" means $12 million+. Garcon wants $9 million & Brandon Marshall (if cut) wants $12 million. That's a lot of cash to pay for an old WR. CB Stephon Gilmore wants $14 million.

Cutting Dumervil, Shareece Wright & Kyle Arrington gets you the money to sign Williams ($10 million+). You're going to replace Wright with a CB in the draft anyway. Same with Arrington.

Cutting Watson & Kendrick Lewis gets you most of the money to resign Wagner. All 5 of those guys have in house replacements. And more importantly, your entire O-line stays intact (Ravens were 4-0 last year when they all started together).

If you didn't cut anyone else, you'd still have about $9 million to go out and get a veteran WR/CB/ILB. Add in at least 1 maybe 2 top CB in the draft and this defense looks infinitely better - BWill, Pierce, Suggs, Judon, Mosley, Peanut, Weddle, Webb, Jimmy, Tavon, Draft CB, Draft CB, Draft S. Still have Kaufusi, KC, Davis, Henry, ZaDarius, Canady waiting in the wings.....That's a Top 5 defense.

If Marshall is released then we probably can't afford him. I don't see why Ozzie wont just offer a late pick for him and his 7.5mil contract. It's been a while since ozzie made an aggressive move and this is as close as it gets to a sure thing! Do it Ozzie!!

Perriman will ball this year if he can stay healthy.

now we can point fingers at this or that but ultimately, Joe needs to make him great. Joe needs to build chemistry and teach him where he needs to be and when. 

2 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

The only way I would release Wallace is if we signed a true number 1 like Marshall. That way Perriman could be the two and the deep threat. I think we could do without Pitta. We have enough TEs and he can't block. I would use that money towards keeping Wagner or something. Not another TE.
Everyone has their opinion though. There aren't any right moves. lol

Absolutely. Everyone has their own opinion and noone is right or wrong at this point.

i just find it intriguing coz every once in a while someone throws a curve ball that makes so much sense but no one saw it coming lol

3 hours ago, jsarrocohome@yahoo.com said:

No Cruze Let wagner walk if any body gives him anywhere near 10 mill a year they should get fired and as for B.Williams I guess you would play for 14 mill ayear Dude your actually worth about half that

A bit harsh but unfortunately very accurate...

cruz who I really like as a player may still have some gas but I wouldn't touch him because of the risk of him getting hurt. That simple.

wagner should be offered 8 mil per year take it of leave it deal where he'd have to earn the last 2-3 years when the cap hit really hurts

williams is not worth more than 10 a year so offer him that with a nice guarantee and call it a day.

both cap hits would count less than 9 mil against the cap this year.

let go of Doom and Watson and start the offseason with one objective. Get better! 

Ray Lewis would make a great coach because he was one of the smartest MLBs to ever play the game and studied film like no other.

now how patient or tolerable to players making mistake after mistake is yet to be seen.

just as players have a learning curve and have to move up the pyramid of heirchy, coaching is similar and Ray would have to put years of coaching in multiple situations to be ready take that step. 

41 minutes ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Interesting to think about if we didn't resign any of our free agents. I think Wagner is the only one we should consider.
I know everyone has their preference, but I would probably cut:
-Doom
-Wallace
-Pitta
-Watson
-Arrington
-K.Lewis
-Webb
-Wright
-Zuttah (hopefully trade him)

If a site is right that frees up 33 Million in cap space!!! Not to mention it's be great to add a little to that if Flacco restructured at all.
That means we really can go after whoever we want. Hope KC pissed off Berry so much he leaves.
I think Stephone Gilmore and Marshall (through trade or FA) have to be our top targets.
If we did cut all those names above, the only positions to fill from the moves would be
wr-Marshall
Safety- Cyprien would be Awesome at SS- Weddle to FS
Corner-Gilmore, or Trumaine Johnson
Center- I'm hoping for Elflein in round 2
We already need a pass rusher. Round 3 maybe. Or round 1 if we grab Gilmore and there's a stud at 16. Solomon Thomas would be awesome
Though I doubt we'll make that many cuts, this should be an interesting offseason

Stop the madness lol

you were on the right track untill you said release Pitta and Wallace.

iv occasionally  criticized Flacco for his inconsistant play last year but to take his 3 best pass catchers in 1 offseason is insane. We want to add talent not wholes on this squad. 

Pitta took a 4 mil dollar paycut last year as a thank you so there's just about 0% the Ravens cut him. It also only frees up 3.2mil if we do and there's no way we find anyone better for that amount. Maybe we can play with his contract a bit to free up cap but he won't get cut.

Wallaces contract was structured in a way that we'd redo it this year so why would you let go of a 1000 yard WR? Redo the deal and the cap hit falls a few million. Agai if you let go of Wallace then you save 5.5mil. Good luck finding a 1000 yard receiver with that money.

also Webb is not getting cut unless a better option walks in the building. The Ravens have all the leverage now to redo his deal so why lose him for nothing?

everything else you said could probably happen. Including Flacco taking 4 mil up front and moving the cap hit to 3 years down the road but I wouldn't recommend that kind of a move unless we're going all in. Super bowl or bust kind of move.

1 hour ago, sizzlingdoom said:

I don't really understand. Before I state my points and questions, I will say this. I live in Ca and and the only games I got to see on my dvr and remind and watch plays over again were the prime time games. The others I had to watch at a pizza place. And I had beer in me for every game. BUT, to me it looks like Pierce was just about as disruptive as BWill this year. He had a couple sacks and to me it looks like he has as much or more pass rushing ability already. And I know he stuffs the run. And I remember multiple times this year just watching him walk an oline man 3-6 yards straight back into the back field. And he played all 16 games. I know he hasn't done it for as long, but I think he's just about there. And very well may be ready to man the every down role of our NT. Especially keeping the momentum from this season heading into the off season. I didn't exclude it because it's not always the same process for everyone. And to me Pierce proved he's ready. He's hungry and really seems as talented as anybody in the league at his position. He just needs more time on the field to prove himself and improve his game, which can top out at all pro level imo. Though true nosetackles don't really get much love at all. What a pick up this guy was.
Brandon Williams is literally going to make 16-20 times more than Pierce next year. Think about how crazy that is. Considering the position+Pierce+our current roster+the price tag for BWill coming up, I think we've gotta spend that 8-10 on something else. Wagner, S. Gilmore, Marshall.
Just wondering why you think Pierce is so far behind BWill

First off, I appreciate the detailed response and you make a lot of valid points. I'm sorry if I implied that I don't have faith in Pierce or that I don't want to see him on the field.

For starters, I don't give a NT much credit or criticism when it comes to sacks because I know that it comes and goes. He may have 7 one season and 1 the next and have a better year overall. Sacks is not a NTs job. Ultimately, a NT needs to swallow double teams and dictate to the opposing offense where the run game goes. B.Will is one of the best at doing that. He regularly makes life easy for our DEs and MLBs. That comes from overall awareness of scheme and football IQ. And of course you need to be physically gifted to be able to do that against opposing linemen.

pierce is a fantastic athlete and can push a car over if he wanted to. I'm just not sure he diagnoses plays and knows when to sacrifice his body or stats for the better of the team. That's not a knock on Pierce but the Ravens play a complicated scheme on the line and if one person steps out of line then we give up big plays not an extra yard or 2.

Pierce started loosing playing time as the season went on and to me that's a big concern. Maybe it's not his fault but that's an indication that he's just not ready. Early in the season when our D was full strength, we put Pierce in situations where he didn't need to think much. Just beat the guy in front of you.

well to keep things simple, having Bwill start and Pierce play 30-50 percent of snaps is a luxury that id love to keep. Dline was one of the few consistant units on this team so why mess with it if you can afford to keep it? We can handle an injury crisis but if Pierce is the starter then he gets hurt or we need more bodies on 3rd and short or goal line then what?

If Williams demands 8-10 mil a year then he's a talent that is worth us working around. It's not like he's going to ask for Suh money or we can't get out of his contract whenever Pierce is ready.

i think iv said this on another thread, the Ravens ultimately have 30-35 million in cap space to work with for 2017 without letting go of players who started last year. If we keep b will and Wagner that's probably gonna count 10-12 mil against the cap combined in 2017. That leaves 15-20mil to attack a draft and FA this year so it's not like we were 2 years ago where we need to make a lot of sacrifices.

Id love to have Gilmore but now we may be talking of something like 12mil a year money and I'm not sure our FO would have 2 CBs making 25 mil a year.

B.Marshall on the other hand is someone that I think we should pursue before he gets released. Heck throw a 6th round their way and we're done here lol. His 7.5 mil cap hit is so doable and we could even sign him to an extension and spread the cap hit as he is in his last year of his deal. 

This will be an interesting off season as our current roster doesn't have any glaring need but a whole bunch of positions that could get upgraded. 

1 hour ago, #Nevermore said:

I think we can stomach the loss of BWill. It will be harder to replace Orr in my opinion. I don't think we drop outside the top 7 in run defense. We had Brandon Williams the last 5 weeks of the season and we were atrocious in run defense. He is not the end all be all. We need to scheme better in the run game with or without him. We will continue to draft on the D-line and we will be solid. We have guys that can get the job done.

Well those last 5 weeks are the only reason it's not unanimous here to keep Williams. But keep in mind that the D was compensating for an injured J.Smith and more guys we dropping into coverage vs stacking the box. Also keep in mind, regardless of the kind of contract Williams signs his cap hit for this upcoming year shouldn't exceed 5 million because he will receive a nice signing bonus that will backload the contract a bit.

2 hours ago, sizzlingdoom said:

Exactly. I agree with you Nevermore. Not to mention he is better than a good pass protector and mediocre run blocker. Pretty sure pff rated him in the top 5 for all tackles multiple times in the past few years. Regardless of how people feel about their ratings, that is Very good. We cannot just let a VERY good Tackle go without having any sort of proven replacement. Especially with how our O performed last year. BWill is a monster and a favorite of mine but if there is a choice between the 2 it has to be Wagner imo. Pierce is a Monster and can essentially take over for BWill. We should have enough Bigs. Where's Carl Davis at? Timmy, Kufasi, Urban. We just drafted Willie Henry. Not saying it's easy to find another BWill, but we could also add another run stuffing NT in the mid to late rounds to all those names. Or hoepfully find another gem like Pierce. Good Olineman are way harder to find and keep. If we sign Wagner, and draft an awesome young mauling Center in the second like Elflein, our line will be a Monster and set for years. People can call me crazy if they want to, but I think Pierce can be just as good of a player as Brandon if not better.

Pierce is certainly a gem but he's not ready to start. Your not crazy at all for thinking Pierce can be as good as Williams or maybe even better. You just excluded the fact that it's a process and at the moment it's not really close. Pierce has some developing to do and heck maybe in 1 year or maybe in 3 years his time will come but until then we need to keep Bwill. By that time, we can trade or release Bwill if Pierce proves he's consistent enough to start.

On February 8, 2017 at 8:30 AM, TheConquerorWorm said:

In 13 games, he had a total of 24 tackles & 1 sack. Jerraud Powers had 33 tackles & 1 sack. I'd rather have the 3rd Round comp pick this year....

I doubt we get a 3rd round comp for him. Even a 4th is unlikely. But yes getting anything in return is better than nothing.

But to be fair, comparing the tackles of a CB and a rotational edge setter proves nothing at all lol

On February 6, 2017 at 6:56 AM, Raven'evermore said:

 Not sure if this applies to this particular forum, but I remember Wright made some nice tackles close to the line of scrimmage.  His one main fault seems to be speed when playing corner.  However, he does play with a lot of fire and is a pretty good tackler.  Convert to safety?  Maybe back up safety?  Just a thought.  That way we could save a draft pick for more o lineman or whatever else we need. Again just a thought.

Not a bad thought actually. If the Ravens do indeed take a CB early in the draft or a starting callibar FA to line up across from J.Smith then young will be moved to the slot where he'd play on 2/3 of snaps. I could see him play 5-10 snaps a game as safety in 3 deep packages or closer to the line in some situations when we are not playing Nickle.

Converting him to safety full time would be a bit of a gamble at this stage of his career. We don't want to risk halting his development as a corner and if he doesn't play the slot then we need 2 CBs because chances are Jimmy or Webb will miss significant time due to injury. 

4 hours ago, mendii said:

Just saw on NFL.com that Sam Shields has been released. Here's hoping Ozzie has already picked up the phone.

Sam shields was a great CB but concussions have taken a toll on him and he may never play football again because of it. Even if he is cleared medically to play  and the Ravens sign him then we'd be holding our breath every time he's in a collision coz that would be Concussion #5

lets hold our guns on CB for now because this FA class is flooded with talented CBs and we should weigh our options first.

this draft class is also extreemly CB happy. There's a great chance a top 10 talented CB falls to us similarly to when Mosley fell.

either or..... I'm good if Ozzie goes one way or another but I'd be extreemly dissapointed if we just settle for a 4th round CB and a vet minimum FA. We lucked out with young but let's not count on that happening again in consecutive years.

12 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

And on the other side of that, is a pick a bust if unexpected injury derails or ruins their career?

I've seen many posts about "Ozzie drafted a bust" all throughout 2015 because Perriman got hurt and in the past because of injuries that couldn't be predicted (see Kindle).  Arthur Brown is an example of a bad draft pick.  Kindle is more of an unfortunate one imo

I agree 100 percent. Kindle is just plain old unfortunate. I mean seriously, it's laughable to blame the stairs or Kindle for not wearing a helmet whenever he drinks. Brown was a bust of a pick even though I reallily felt good about it when he was drafted. Perriman is exactly where he needs to be to justify investing a late first round pick on him. He got hurt and misdiagnosed his rookie year and missed training camp his second year and still came up with 500 yards and a few TDs as Flaccos 4th option. He's not a good pick or a bad one "yet". Now he needs to build on that and get closer to 1000 yards to be labeled a good pick. if he can't beat out the starters within the next 2 years and get to that 1K mark then yes it would be a bad pick. 

33 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

This is where the issue lies, in my opinion.  We got some quality players out of it which is great, but we haven't retained them.  I'd say KO was the only one where it was truly a money issues as to why he didn't stay.  Some other guys we might have made offers, but clearly not large enough offers that we truly wanted to retain them.

That begs the question - is a pick successful if we get a solid player for 3-4 years?  Or is it successful if we find a player that we actually want to be around for a 2nd contract?

I think it's two different conversations and two completely different debates. IMHO, I believe that a rookie is successful if he outplays his contract and unsuccessful if the contract exceeds his theoretical market value. I usually don't judge any rookie his first year because there's s learning curve and unrealistic to reach any conclusion in one year. But over the duration of his rookie deal, you can usually look at his production and then look at how much he was paid and compare it to free agents you could have signed for that price.

il use Torrey smith as an example. He was drafted in the second and made about 750k a year while racking up 3500 yards and 30 TDs. I think that second round we invested in him payed off dividends because there was no FA we could have picked up that would get those numbers for that price. So basically we got ourselves a bargain for 4 years by investing a second and his market value turned out to be around 6-8 mil when he left. Good deal  now weather or not he is retained is another conversation because now you have to look at wether or not it's worth it to spend that money on him or someone else in FA and get a comp pick in return. 

On February 5, 2017 at 11:40 PM, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Sorry that's partially my fault. 

The draft talk only started as it pertained to decisions on our own FA's and then continued to further clarify those opinions. But it did get too far off track. My bad. 

--

Anyways back on track...

I can't see us bringing Doom back. Our D was very good without him overall and at his cap number I just can't justify it.

Maybe if he is willing to take a pay cut but I doubt he will. 

Plus it's a very solid and deep FA class of pass rushers. The top guys like Chandler Jones and Melvin Ingram are way out of our price range... but the middle pack is good too. 

Guys like JPP, Datone Jones, Mario Addison, Nick Perry, Demarcus Ware, etc... we might be able to get a younger for similar money. 

Love Doom and if healthy hope we find a way to keep him around... it's just got to be at a lower #. That's $6m or whatever it is could go a long way to resigning Wagner/Williams or bringing in a Marshall/Garcon, Tretter, or younger pass rusher. 

Wow you are on fire! 3 awesome posts in a row. I'd definitely read an article if you wrote one.

20 hours ago, jimmypowder said:

Can Tom Brady just retire now! 

No! We gotta kick his behind before he leaves for good lol

3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't think Wallace is a far better receiver and I don't know about multiple 1000 yard seasons given the decline we saw from him in the 2nd half of the season. During the 2013 season Torrey led the entire league in receiving yards at one point of the year with 629 yards, I don't think Wallace came close to even sniffing that. The only person who pass him during that stretch was Calvin Johnson and that was due to his legendary 329 yard game. 

He was on pace for a monster year but lost steam due to things that were not in his favor such as ineffective QB play(Courtesy of the sub-par talent that surrounded Joe), an awful run game, and absolutely limited receiving threats. It was a dreadful offense and I don't think it's even close to as bad as what we saw this past year from this offense. It honestly makes this years offense look elite. Even with that, Torrey was killing defenses backs and coverages as literally the only receiving threat, even looking back on those games, while Torrey saw a huge drop-off in his production, he was still able to pull coverages deep and over the middle and give guys like Jacoby Jones, Dennis Pitta and Marlon Brown plenty of 1v1 opportunities. 

I don't think the offense was a perfect fit for Torrey, I think he was effective but the numerous slant/crossing patterns don't play up to his strengths, and I honestly feel the same way towards Mike Wallace, I don't think the offense is best fit for him either because he's not consistent on those routes either. I feel that in a different offense we could have seen a much better Torrey Smith, maybe we see a better Mike Wallace too. 

This is not directed to you, but I always wondered why Torrey caught so much flack here. He's not a super-star WR, but he's a good receiver and still is the only drafted receiver in franchise history to have a 1,000 yard season.

Great post.

Well to answer your question, Torrey caught so much flack because "he didn't fight enough for that ball" if you know which one I'm talking about.

unfortunately, some people around here are so passionate in loving the Ravens and our QB Joe Flacco that they take criticizing his play as a personal insult and often find themselves blaming everyone and everything around Joe just to avoid the "paid like elite play like elite" conversation. 

On that pass, Torrey may have done a bit more to break up that pass but that's debateable. Also on that pass, Joe could have thrown it better which is also debateable. What's not debateable is that if Joe hadnt forced it into double coverage and had other options but decided to do so regardless then the Ravens would have had a few more opportunities to win that game. 

Joe took a risk, the reward would have been "hero of the day" and a huge win. But it didn't pay off and ultimately it was a bad play. So what?! Me personally, im glad Joe took that risk at that time and can live with the outcome because every NFL QB takes risks and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. Unfortunately some people here took it so personal that they started attacking Torrey's work ethic and motor just to take attention away from a bad throw Joe may have made. And then Torry signed for the 49ers and it was game on. Bashing Torry became a regular occurance now that he's gone which is so unfortunate and unRaven.

1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

That's not how contracts work in the NFL. If the Ravens cut him they only owe him whatever the guaranteed money was. Chances are he got that in his first year. Once he's cut he's an unrestricted free agent and he is free to sign with any team for whatever contract he can get.

What you are describing is closer to a baseball contract. If a team cuts a player (and this usually happens with very expensive players in their final contract year) the original team owes him the entire contract minus whatever the major league minimum is for that season. The team that signs this player pays the major league minimum salary part which is also pro-rated for the amount of games left in the season when he joins his new team. So, say player A is making 15 million in his last season and he's doing horribly and is blocking an up and coming youngster. You cut him. Team Q signs him and only has to pay him the $250,000 major league minimum salary. It seems pretty crazy that any team would do this, but it actually happens pretty often in MLB.

That's not what I meant brother. I know the Ravens are on hook for the guaranteed part of his contract and yes you are correct. He got most of that last year when he signed. So regardless if the Ravens cut or trade him then some 2.25 or 3.25 depending on when the Ravens do so (roster bonus) is dead cap the the Ravens must swallow.

the remaining 4.75 or 5.75 that the Ravens owe Wallace this tear is the cap hit that any team would inherit if they traded for Wallace. So they ultimately get a 1k yard WR for that price if they trade for him and that's worth something in my opinion. 

If the Ravens cut Wallace then all bets are off. Then it's a bidding war between teams Wallace ssigns a new contract. the Ravens have 2.25 mil in dead cap 

thus, if the Ravens find a better option and decide to let go of Wallace for whatever reason then I hope it's via trade not just flat out cut. 

Yanda is a baller. He's a monster and I'm honored to have witnessed every songle game in his great career. I feel bad saying this but I'm glad he didn't get the recognition early in his career because he would have priced himself out of Baltimore.

Now, Yanda has regularly played through all kinds of injuries and played great but it's time for Yanda to acgnowlidged his age and focus on extending his career. 

If he gets hurt then let it heal rather than fight through lingering injuries all the time. I think Yanda has 3 or 4 great years in him and hope we are blessed enough to see them in purple.

thank you for everything Yanda. May your efforts never go unnoticed