The Raven

6 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

No. My opinion was based upon watching Joe in all 16 games last year. I saw more dropped passes by some of our "elite" group of receivers than misreads by Joe. To be fair, some of his interceptions, and there were too many, were the result of balls that shoulda been caught or rushed throws he made due to some P-poor blocking by our "elite" group of blockers.

Be careful how you use the word heart around your buddy The Raven. He's overly sensitive to clichés.

I do agree with him on one thing though. Our myriad of problems last year had more to do with the talent thing and less to do with the play-calling. In an admittedly different era of the NFL, the Green Bay Packers won consistently with some pretty basic plays, which they executed to near perfection. The Washington Redskins also beat a Don Shula coached Miami team in a Super Bowl with a basic play that the Dolphins couldn't stop. To make a long story short, we need more playmakers on both sides of the ball. I'm glad we're returning to smash mouth football to use your words but it will all be for naught if Oz does not land at least a starting offensive lineman and an immediate impact wide receiver.  

I wouldn't say I'm oversensitive to cliches. I just find them annoyingly vapid. A prevalence of cliches usually indicates an absence of actual thought. "I can't bring anything meaningful to the conversation so let me just fall back on this stupid cliche I heard John Madden say once during a game."

11 minutes ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

Actually, the "heart of a lion" mindless cliché came right from Coach Harbaugh, but far be it for me to question the greatness of your coaches. At the risk of disagreeing with their innate wisdom and yours, I would call the guy that never played a down but got the crap kicked out of him in practice someone who should have tried out for the debate club. BTW, where did you dream up that one? Were you watching Rudy again for some inspiration? Let's see...... Of all our TEs, including Watson, Waller, Williams, Boyle and Happy Gilmore, Dennis performed better than all of them combined. Quit your complaining and find someone else other than Joe and Dennis to blame for the ineptness of our offense last year. I'm not sure why Dennis did not win the comeback player of the year award but he certainly deserved it.

Yeah, Harbaugh says that crap in part because fans eat it up. "Heart" always makes for a good quote. 

What did I dream up? Was I watching Rudy? Don't even know what you're talking about. All I know is I didn't need some coach to say the word "heart" for me to want to clobber someone.

If you think Dennis deserved comeback player of the year for leading the league in wide open catches followed by falling down immediately, then you should probably see a doctor.

1 hour ago, redrum52 said:

You sure about this?

 

@The Raven  how could you be tired of the cliches?  We're returning to smash mouth football.  We could potentially, finally draft a #1 wr to pair with our elite qb.  Deep draft too, so we may be able to get a CB and OLB to help our defense return to organized chaos.  No more gutless play calling from passive Pees and his 3 man rushes.  Also, even though we lost Zack Orr, we still have the heart and soul of our defense in Mosley.... Miss anything?

You forgot bring back Ray to be a locker room leader and keep guys in line and inspire people to work even harder

1 hour ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

 

Talent issue or not, there's are reasons Joe threw to Dennis a lot in clutch situations. The two most obvious reasons are: 10 He was, next to Steve Smith, Sr. our most reliable "Go To" hands guy AND 2) he got separation by finding a dead spot in the zone coverages we faced a lot. I'd say they are both assets. More importantly, he has another asset that exceeds the other two, which is, he has the heart of a lion. They don't pay him to block or run deep patterns. They pay him to catch passes and he did that better than anyone else n the team. BUT, you got 1 out of 3 right. Speed is not his asset. His size, i.e., height, and his ability to get separation are assets. The very reason Joe had to dump off so many passes to his RBs and his FB was due to the inability of Aiken, Moore, Waller (a converted TE), Perriman and Wallace to get separation. You could count the number of open reads Joe missed during the season on one hand.

Pitta only got separation on five yard curl routes and two yard flat routes that had no potential to convert third down. He found the literal dead zone where nobody was because it didn't ever matter if he went there.

He'd run short of sticks and fall down before even thinking about breaking a tackle for YAC.

But hey, at least he's open and catches every wide open pass.

And good god if I read one more mindless cliche like "heart of a lion" I will vomit. Do you guys watch Disney movies and Hallmark movies nonstop with all these cliches? Or do you just listen to aimless, hackneyed Ray Lewis speeches on repeat, for days at a time?

I swear I don't think any of the coaches I played for said "heart" more than once a year -- at the end of the year banquet, talking about the guy that never played a down but got the crap kicked out of him in practice.

1 hour ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I was not talking about other teams. How did it work for us last year?

The fact that it works for other teams and not us should indicate to an intelligent human that the idea works but our personnel sucks. 

You can't just talk about the Ravens in a vacuum and pretend that other teams don't exist because the reality is that other teams do exist and they do things well that we don't do well. The concept of "well, that team isn't us so we shouldn't make a comparison" is flat out stupid. Comparisons set a benchmark and they show you how to improve. Refusing to make a comparison is refusing to look at the bigger picture.

27 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Abandon the inside zone, it doesn't work unless your line has a very specific skill set. 

Use the damn speed we have on offense. Our qb has probably the 2nd strongest cannon in the league, no need to emphasize hitting fast guys in stride on crossing routes when our receivers can get downfield in a hurry and our qb can get it there with a flick of the wrist 

just take pitta off the field so joe can't default to him all the time 

use pre snap motions for once

You're not wrong that the inside zone requires a specific skill set, but frankly, when the majority of teams in the NFL run the inside zone, I don't think that the skill set is that hard to find. You just need guys that, you know, aren't weak/small like Zuttah and Urschel and Wagner. It was dumb to use it with Zuttah and Wagner on the line, but using OL with even average strength, it should work. 

2 hours ago, K-Dog said:

My advice to the new OC?

Get the Old Bay Ribs at Mission BBQ.

They are amazing. 

Honestly this is the best advice to give. Good call K-Dog

9 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Hey! Leave the roasting to me! It's not may 4th yet. Don't worry, I'm roasting myself first so yeah.

 

THANK YOU. Freaking thank you. 

 

Personally(spoiler) I think that's why we gotta take Lamp in the first and possibly plug him at C. If the team really thinks that  Lewis is a guard that's a move I fully support. 

 

There re are too many times where there's also a mismatch there and we just don't take advantage of it. For example, during the first steelers game there was a series where Perriman was consistently getting open vs Artie Burns. And he was making plays. Yet in the second half we never used it again. 

 

Its why I'm not happy we kept Marty. He called one good game this year. Along with continually abandoning the run(not entirely his fault since we had a grand total of two above average run blockers on the oline) he misuses so many people.

 

Theres a small part of me that wishes we fired Harbaugh and hired Shannahan to be HC. And I'm a Harbaugh fan as well. 

Just a small part? There's a very large part of me that wishes that. As much as he sometimes gets needlessly cute and sophisticated, he's aggressive as hell, creative, innovative, and uses his players well.

Another part of it is I think we suck at self scouting. I really don't think we're that good at evaluating our own guys and analyzing what they do.

The idea that Joe is not capable of being a WCO QB is just flat out wrong since his best year came in Kubiak's WCO. The issue is he needs a QB coach that will keep him reined in with good feet. We need an OC that drills into his head -- like Kubiak did -- that you need to throw to your reads and not wait for the deep ball. That's the advice I guess I'd give. Fix Joe's technique and work with him on making fewer risky decisions. WCO works in rhythm. It works when you take what the defense gives you. 

I'd also advise using a run scheme that fits the personnel. You know, like not using a tight zone with a weak line. If the line is mobile run wide zone. If they're slow, run gap and power til a defense crumbles.

And for pete's sake stop wasting people's talent. He's gone now but Juice was woefully underused by every OC we've had. Kamar, yes, even Kamar, was underused. We could've used a big, strong handed receiver with solid route running and the ability to break tackles. Yet, we didn't even use Kamar. We needed a center that could hold his own in a bar fight and we trot out pathetic ole Zuttah, when we have a pancake machine in Jensen sitting on the bench.

Too often, we ask round pegs to fill square holes, when we already have square pegs. Too often, we get guys that fill a certain role, and then we use them in another. I really think there's a disconnect between the FO and the coaching staff. Our personnel rarely reflects our scheme and philosophy. I think Pees and the FO are finally on the same page, but I don't think our offensive staff has ever connected with the draft team.

When will the cliches end

I'd like to keep Waller in the 6'6 240 range. I think he's a little heavier than that right now, but his versatility is probably best preserved at 240. I don't think he has a true position, but I like him as a a matchup disaster, whether it's killing LBs in the seams or mossing guys outside the hashes. Unfortunately, he hasn't proven yet to be able to moss guys regularly.

Fullback is interesting to me. Lorenzo Taliaferro is the closest fit we have to the modern fullback in the mold of Mike Tolbert. He's already an ample pass blocker, and if you get him to 240, I think he'll be able to handle blocking many (but maybe not most) linebackers, and he'll demolish safeties. One thing I like about Tali is that he's more mobile than Juice which will make him a better blocker in the open field, and frankly, that's what we need a fullback to be 2017. A guy who can just crack that last defender, be it a backer or a safety, to spring the play. Juice wasn't the most agile fella, and he wasn't the best open field blocker because of it.

Now, Boyle I think can fill that traditional fullback role, but he's definitely a bit too tall and, well, slow, to be a fullback. Being a good fullback is dependent on getting to the landmark before your assignment does. A slow fullback means a linebacker blowing up your back for a two yard loss. With his height, too, he'll have no leverage -- which is crucial in the trenches.

The thing is that linebackers are getting faster and oftentimes smaller. I don't have data to prove it, but empirically, that seems to be the trend. Going off of that, Tali is my pick for fullback. He's a true triple threat as a blocker, runner, or receiver, and Boyle isn't. He's also much more athletic, and as defenders are increasingly more athletic, you need an athletic fullback to keep up. I do not support Buck Allen at fullback. Way too gifted as a runner to be used as a blocker.

On the line, Yanda at RG or LG, period, sorry. I think Alex Lewis will be fine at RT if it comes down to it.

So other than the hackneyed, hopelessly cliche, and overused traits like heart and effort (gross), the general traits I look for in all positions are a craving for physicality, a fast burst off the line (10 yard split), and good technique. Here's why.

- Football is a violent game, and if you avoid contact, you're going to suck, no matter what position you play, whether you're in the trenches or on the outside.

- The game is won at the LOS -- at every position, arguably. The quicker and stronger you are off the snap, the better you are. Whether you're a center or a wide receiver, that 10 yard split is the best measure of game speed. How often do guys go further than ten yards? Other than WR/DB, it's infrequent, and if you are a WR/DB, those first ten yards make the difference on most plays.

- There's this idea that an NFL coach can take a raw but athletic freak and turn him into a HOFer. It's a myth. There's a reason guys like Julian Edelman dominate: they have good technique. If you do the little things right, you're gonna be in good shape. 

After that, my criteria gets a lot more specific.

Three year deal? Hope it's low on the guarantees and has a coaching option in year three but I'm happy as hell that Webb's gonna retire a Raven now.

On 4/5/2017 at 10:50 AM, PurpleHorseman said:

Could Gilmore do a Jason Peters and grow into a tackle?  He has big hands, long arms and is 6'6. I heard he bulked up to 275-280 after his rookie season with a 34 inch vertical and a 10' broad jump. He has a strong natural base. I would think he could get stronger as he grows into his new position. That is better raw athleticism than Garrett Bolles   Who isn't quite 300 lbs and projected to grow once drafted. And he is about Crocketts age.

The most impressive aspect of his game is his blocking power and is like trying to bring down a bull after the catch. Linebackers look like cornerbacks trying to tackle him if the linebacker gets no leverage.  It isn't likely but is he much different from round1 pick Bolles?

He definitely has the size and frame for it, and I do think he'd prefer tackle to tight end, but I think it's a little late in his career for that kind of a move. His blocking is also a bit overrated. He's just not very mobile and doesn't move his feet well.

Looks like the Eagles are looking forward. Wish we would.

3 hours ago, rmw10 said:

Did you not watch Webb last year?  He was a quality starter who made a huge difference for us.  He might not have been a playmaker but he played smart, solid football.  Getting him back as depth is a no brainer.

Idk, I know I didn't watch him. Kinda hard to watch a DB on TV when the ball never gets thrown their way  

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

I still haven't seen anything to suggest we actually are transitioning away from our base 3-4 hybrid scheme...

We've drafted Brent Urban, Willie Henry, and Bronson Kaufusi in the span of three years. All three are much more athletic than your typical 3-4 linemen. That gives me the impression that we're at the very least shifting away from the traditional 3-4 and towards the Wade Phillips single gapping model that helped make JJ Watt the freak that he is. I mean, Urban and Kaufusi are practically JJ Watt models. Not nearly as good, but the same basic model. Long, explosive penetrators that are disruptive more so than clogging.

I just hate two gapping. I couldn't care less about 3-4 or 4-3, especially with the abundance of nickel these days, but two gapping fronts are stupid. I'm not sure how the Patriots and Steelers have continued to use those fronts with success. How the Patriots had such a beastly defense with just 34 sacks is beyond me. Guess they're just really good at tackling. 

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Hey, you're more optimistic than me, but maybe the trade of Jernigan will open up these situations for him. I mean, right now, who do the Ravens currently have that's going to come in and play the 3T with any semblance of effectiveness? You don't pay $55M for just a run stuffer, so maybe they do have big plans for him as a pass rusher. 

He has Warren Sapp type potential if he gets more athleticism and stamina.

The stamina is killer, too. He simply doesn't have a lot of it.

22 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I actually liked the Williams deal because the defense kinda faltered when he wasn't playing up to par late in the season. You could see the front seven kinda runs through him early. 

I also would like to see him one gap more. I think he's got some disruptive ability. Not so much the ability to get sacks, but at least flush a quarterback.

Fair. I'd love to see him slim down and become a dominant, one gapping 3-tech in the 4-3 Tampa 2 we should be transitioning to, with Pierce playing the 1. I firmly believe that if he slimmed down a bit, got a better first step, and was allowed to one gap from the 3, he'd be a HOF caliber player.

18 hours ago, Willbacker said:

Jernigan had a lot more chances at rushing the passer and when he was getting doubled it was playing 1 tech which if Pierce was in it'd be the same deal. And also saying "block eaters" don't get as much pressure as gap shooters is complete bull. Pocket collapsing is not pressure?? Really depends on the situation. Block eaters frees up blitzers while gap penetrating does work better with 4 man rushes. But cmon lets not make it that cut and dry. Pierce had 2 sacks to Jernigans 5 in way less oppurtunities.

Now the bolded part gets me. Do you really think either Pierce or Williams are not a threat if they only get one on one blocking. Seriously??

Considering thats what happened this past season, yes. Neither of them were ever a significant threat in passing situations. They might have gotten doubled a lot in the run game in the first 12 games (lord knows they didn't in the last four), but neither pulled doubles in passing situations. It's a fact that they were not threats in the pass rush. They didn't get pressure, sacks, or double teams. Do you think they actually were threats?

If they actually collapsed the pocket regularly, I'd consider that pass rush, but the notion that they regularly collapsed the pocket is what's really "complete bull." Both of Pierce's sacks were hustle plays. They were coverage sacks. 

If you pay attention, it's rare for defensive linemen to pull doubles in passing situations. They might get chipped, but unless you really deserve to be TRULY doubled, you won't be.

16 hours ago, Jonah DeVito said:

So you are trying to say the Brandon Williams is just a "fat guy". That's kind of disrespectful.

The only value he provides at present time is his sheer size and strength. He's a space eater. He could provide a lot more value if the team would get with the times but for now, yes, he is your stereotypical "fat guy" NT. A good one, though.

2 minutes ago, arnie_uk said:

Not at 1 winning drive

Don't even get me started Arnie lol

Still pissed about the Terrence Cody pick. And the Williams deal. And the increasing reliance on Pierce.

Oh and one more thing... I don't remember a whole lot of sets with one down linemen and five backers. Definitely remember a lot of four man fronts. If you count Zadarius Smith occasionally playing the 3, with Jernigan at the 1 and two edges, then I guess that's technically a 1-5-5, but it was still a four man front.

We did run more 1-5-5 than we have since the Pagano days but the idea that we "often" went with it is inaccurate. Definitely more four man fronts by a long shot. 

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

In nickel packages we were opting often for 1 down lineman and 5 standing LB's.... 

And with that look it's a lot less important for your DL to be shooting gaps than it is for him to eat blocks and push the pocket.

 

And what does it matter the mold of the player?? Production matters. Maybe Pierce won't be knifing through gaps like Jernigan did for 3 games last year... but if he can overwhelm an OG and push him right back into the QBs lap more frequently than Jernigan shot through the gap with speed/finesse, or force a double team from the G and T while BWill's forcing a double team by the C and G on the other side so that our edge guys have 1on1's with a T and a TE -- who cares how it's getting done or what skill sets being used if the end product is more effective??

If Pierce can generate more pressure than Jernigan or the front 7/6 can generate more pressure with Pierce on the field as opposed to Jernigan... who cares??

 

I mean we did pretty well with Ngata at DT for a while... different athlete for sure but def not in the mold of Jernigan. Not all 3T DT's are built or play like Jernigan. 

This isn't wrong in theory, I guess, but in pass rushing situations, you only "eat blocks" if you actually pose a threat as a pass rusher. Jernigan, contrary to popular belief, was doubled a lot in passing scenarios. Pierce, however, was not. Eating blocks does not happen in passing situations unless you require a double team.

As far as the pass rush goes, gap shooters are far more impactful than "block eaters." The "block eater" types are just fat guys that rarely sniff the QB. You can usually find them stood up by the center at the LOS as the QB is entering his fifth second without pressure. See: Cody, Terrence; Ngata, Haloti; Williams, Brandon..

TL;DR? Gap shooters get pressure. Block eaters don't. Pressure requires athleticism. If you don't get pressure, you won't get doubled, and if you aren't eating blocks, are you even actually a block eater?

The whole concept of sending fat guys out there for the sole purpose of clogging space is so damn outdated and obsolete. 

Just now, rmw10 said:

I didn't expand this much of course, but I agree on the offense vs. defense identity.  Defense came together how I expected in a way, although Jefferson was a surprise but that was more a swapping of parts with Webb.  I always expected a pass rusher to be drafted rather than signed, and I hope the same holds true with CB.

The offense though... I just don't see it right now.  0 help for Flacco.

And the tight end situation? I don't get it at all. Please cut the dead weight. Receiver? Please sign somebody that can run a damn in route and catch a third down ball over the middle because I don't think that person's on the roster. Oline? What are we waiting for?

I am simply amazed we got yet another starting caliber running back before addressing any other offensive need. Here's hoping to a good draft where we hit on every pick -- because that's what we need to happen if we don't make any other free agency moves.

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

Overall, I guess I'm just failing to see the direction.  We invested in a few stopgaps and a few younger players, but still have the same holes.  Is that a team that can compete?

I don't see the direction either, but at the same time, I do think this is a team that can compete. We competed last year until injuries caught up with us.

Jefferson and Carr are guys that improve things we didn't do well last year: tackling and pressing. We didn't tackle well in the secondary and our corners (not blaming Pees for this) gave receivers too much space to work with. Those, to me, were the biggest problems we faced. We gave receivers too much space and we failed to tackle, and that's why we gave up so many third down conversions. We basically let them have the easy stuff. 

I'm actually seeing a clear defensive direction, as I flesh this out. The plan I see Ozzie making is going to help get the 

We retained Brandon Williams and got Jefferson -- both moves that will improve the run defense. A good run defense will put us in more third and longs on defense. We got Carr, who plays closer to the line, and we got Jefferson, who makes tackles.

By taking away the easy stuff, I think we'll force more punts. Dean Pees's defense works when you do the little things right -- chasing and tackling. So, I see this as a clear direction.

The offense, on the other hand, remains directionless and without an identity. 

7 hours ago, Jonah DeVito said:

I think Tali at FB is an interesting thought. I mean I think the talent is definitely there for him to make the roster either way, but he's a guy who's really been plagued with injuries so it's hard for us to rely on him as a FB. 

That's the other thing, for sure. The injuries.

I could see Tali as a Mike Tolbert type fullback if he stays healthy.