The Raven

46 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

Id say we didnt see much of Moore, but Perriman and Waller, definitely.

If Moore could have got on the field more, I think he would have grown more. He had some disappointing drops early on but flashed potential.

1 hour ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Aiken was a product of being the only healthy body on the field. Obviously if you are the only guy playing you are going to get targeted. Heck, we turned Kelley Washington into a cult hero for a season too. Jacoby Jones had a really good season here.

And look at what Aiken reverted back to this season. Did you see any real progression out of Perriman, Chris Moore, or Darren Waller?

What was a big issue this year for our wideouts? Not getting separation....again. So to me, that's all on technique. You are seeing progress I am not. The two biggest contributors to the wideout position were free agents (Smith and Wallace) not guys we drafted. I think all of our Wideouts should spend a season getting coached by Dennis Pitta and learn how to work free in zone coverage. That guy is a master at his craft.

Yes, yes I did.

44 minutes ago, EdTheMythicalOne said:

Haven't seen anyone else bring this up but one of the main issues I've been seeing for years now is the inability of our receivers to get open and make plays. One person that has remained a constant over the past few seasons and this one is WR Coach Bobby Engram. Apparently whatever he's teaching isn't working. We've got some talented (Supposedly) young receivers in Chris Moore, Breshard Perriman, Darren Waller (who moved to TE), and Keenan Reynolds. Why would we want them all learning under a guy that doesn't produce results?

You should have seen our WR play BEFORE Engram. Bobby Engram is a fine WR coach. Nothing special but not the problem.

Kamar no name Aiken nearly had 1000 yards under Engram. Look at Aiken's development. Went from a complete no name to a solid third receiver. One of the better route runners on the team. In 2014, Engram's first year here and Torrey's last, it looked as if Torrey finally learned how to run a route. It wasn't his best season statistically, but he finally looked like he took a step further.

I'm blaming play design. I'm seeing technical progress from players. That's all a position coach can do.

10 minutes ago, JO_75 said:

Rams planning on making a move in regards to a trade for Saints Head Coach Sean Payton this week. Rams will look to seek permission to speak to Payton this week and whether Saints GM Mickey Loomis is open to trading Payton.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/01/01/sean-payton-to-rams-chatter-continues-to-grow/

Sean Payton should consider walking away from the Saints for a year and waiting for a better option in 2018. Going to that dumpster fire is not a good way to end your coaching career. 

I highly doubt Payton's next coaching job will be his last, and New Orleans was a dumpster fire when he took that job.

I feel like teams without a head coach are almost always dumpster fires, anyway, so he's got slim pickings if he wants a better option. Typically, a coach is fired because it's a dumpster fire, right?

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I had heard a lot about how the Ravens were going to keep Harbaugh, but have to wonder if that's revisited after today.

Harbaugh told us all week that the Ravens would go out there and play to win, but if that game is any indication, the players all spat in Harbaugh's face and gave him the middle finger. Even coordinators looked dejected.

Absolutely zero care or effort.

And what's worse is that CJ Mosley got injured playing in an entirely meaningless game.

Ya know, the Bengals had nothing to play for either, and they still showed up. They were playing for their coach. I didn't see any of that from out guys.

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i understand what people are saying when they say "we call the same plays for 3 quarters and its brilliant, but when those same plays fail in the 4th then the coaches need to be fired". obviously players need to execute and they arent. and i have been higher on pees this season then i was last year, but i really have to wonder how it is such a consistent thing? i give pees credit where it is due, he can dial up some brilliant schemes, in particular with the front seven, and he really has a way of surprising all of us and his opponents, and when he has all the pieces his defenses are something special, BUT... how is it, that with and without those pieces, for years now with the ravens, and also as a DC with the patriots, his defenses all have had a very common trait... 4th quarter meltdowns. every season that pees has called our defense, we have often seen a too little too late effort from offenses in the 4th quarter, where our defense melts down, with or without the starters, most of the time the opposing offense just runs out of time(which i know is the whole concept technically), but theres a fair share of times where we dominate for 3 quarters, and then those same players give up the game in the 4th quarter alone. its happened for years now with 2 different teams, and it has happened far too often. im not trying to blame pees, i actually think hes fully earned another season with us, i just want to know how it happens so consistently? its easy to blame coaches, its harder to say players arent executing, but what the hell do you say when players execute for 3 quarters of every game and then meltdown the same way in the 4th quarter of a large chunk of games over a 4 year span? 

i cant blame the players solely, whether its the same play calls or not, something isnt right there and i dont know what it is. its one of the most confusing things ive seen in football how we so consistently play good defense followed by meltdowns in the 4th quarter.

Pees can't scheme a pass rush if we're not winning one on one battles. I would argue that the number one reason defenses crumble in the fourth quarter is an ineffective pass rush, whether it's fatigue, inability, or whatever. If you look at the defenses that get a stop against a two minute offense, it always comes because of a sack and some hits or a turnover. 

Considering we have a pair of very old edge guys, a pair of 340 pounders, a guy who has historically had conditioning and effort problems (Jernigan), and a couple of role players, I'm pretty much certain that fatigue might be a large factor in our fourth quarter melt downs. It's a mix of that and inability.

I'm not trying to defend Pees, but I just believe that defense starts up front. If you're not getting pressure, you're going to get torn apart. 

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean I think we'll have somewhere in the range of $20-25M in cap space to spend, so I have no issue spending that on your own players. I guess in the grand scheme of things, $8M/year isn't a huge numbers in today's salary cap. Talking about less than 5% of the cap at this point.

And, while I agree his production is limited, he is unquestionably a great, young player and is easily one of the better players on this team.

I think what would be disappointing to me is if we let both Williams and Wagner walk. You basically wouldn't have any significant long-term signings in that draft class, outside of like Juice and maybe somebody like Jensen as a reserve. Its pretty disappointing if you can't lock up at least one player per draft class to a substantial long term deal. We failed to lock up anybody from the 2012 draft either, meaning back to back draft classes with no significant long term deals.

Granted, the 2014 draft class looks like you have two guys you'd probably want to keep long term in Mosley and Jernigan, though I suspect the FO is basically choosing between Williams and Jernigan at this point. Both have their pros and cons.

The trick with Williams vs Jernigan is that Jernigan has higher potential in the modern NFL, but he also takes plays off and gets on cold streaks. Williams doesn't, but he's more limited in terms of ability.

It's absolutely crucial for us to lock up at least two guys from this class. Missing out on long term deals for the 2009-2012 period is continuing to set us back.

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Damon Harrison + maybe a little bit extra. That probably puts him right at $10M AAV, probably like $25-30M guaranteed if its a typical five year deal.

Though I'm mildly convinced that deal Harrison got was just an outlier, much in the same way KO's deal was. I don't think NFL teams are just going to start paying $12M a year for a really good Guard because one team did it. Similarly, I'm not convinced that Williams will get paid that much either. I could see it happening, if another run defense-needy team feels the need to overpay for a two down run-stopper.

If he gets that's much, my suspicion is it will be a team running a 4-3 that will convert him into a prototype 4-3 DT, as opposed to a 3-4 NT, much in the way Harrison was. 

My suspicion is that the Ravens will be wiling to pay up to about $8M AAV for him. I don't think they'll sniff $10M a year. 

You think we'd put up $8 million for him? Oof. I can see it but I don't like it.

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

No, you're really just entirely missing the point. 

I'll try my best to break it down for you in a way that you might understand, which is difficult when you refuse to relent on your hate and see logic.

Jimmy was out against the Steelers and the Giants (when they made their comeback). Prior to Jimmy's exit, OBJ was held to 2 catches for 12 yards. Is it really just a coincidence that OBJ all of a sudden finds his groove when Jimmy goes out? No, probably not. We actually broke it down in another thread, but the defense has had a 12 point difference when Jimmy isn't in. That's a big deal. 

If you paid attention to the Patriots game in particular, you can see that when Jimmy is in, you just cannot test him deep. He wasn't allowing anything over the top and made plays on the ball the few times he was tested deep. 

The other point is that people seem to get this idea that offenses aren't supposed to make plays. You know, you've got some of the best offenses in football (Patriots, Raiders, Steelers) in a league that favors the offense and we should expect that they'll never make a play? I mean, shoot, like I said before, you have two top five receivers in Brown and OBJ and two quarterbacks who are top 5 in the MVP race in Carr and Brady. These players are expected to make plays. That's just a simple fact. It doesn't help that you're playing against some of the best offensive players in the league without your top corner. Do you see why this would be an issue?

I do agree that the defense needs to finish, but that's not entirely a Dean Pees situation. Sometimes players simply have to actually go out and make a play.

Stop wasting your time bro she won't ever get it and she doesn't want to get it

2 hours ago, balfan23 said:

To be expected. I think there is very little chance we are able to retain him and I think many others feel that way. So they are trying to marginalize his contribution in order to not feel that we're taking a hit. That said ... I agree with the sentiment that a run stuffing rotational NT is not a place where you need to expend big money. IMO, Williams is a very solid player, but isn't a game changing play maker. We have very limited resources and I just don't see anyway we match what other teams will offer. 

What surprises me more is the confidence that Pierce is going to just step in and be the poor man's Williams. Have we really seen enough of him to have confidence that he'll be able to fill that void without a significant drop off in performance? I don't think so. Perhaps it will work, but it feels like a significant gamble - but one we may unfortunately have to take. 

Why don't you @ me next time? Kidding  

Look, I'd like to keep him at a reasonable salary, but there's a good chance he's going to be paid far more than than $5 million a year he's worth, and that's the max I'd be willing to pay him.

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Given any thought to the possibility that he has been playing injured the past few weeks?

Possible, but even if so, I'm not investing big money in Williams at his best. He's a one dimensional player that will have a constantly reducing role as his contract progresses, due to the evolution of the NFL. Twenty years ago, I'd make Brandon Williams the highest paid defender in the league. Today, no. Even at the beginning of the season, I said I was weary of giving him a big deal.

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Williams is only playing about 50-60% of the defensive snaps, so he's not anchoring anything. He's an outstanding run stopper, but he's also not on the field nearly as often as you or anybody else thinks he is.

2. In a normal 3-4 defense, where your pass rushers are primarily OLBs, the NT is largely expected to take on double teams. Thats pretty much his job. Its not a testament to him being good... its a foundation of the defense we run. Plus, as others have said, he's NOT getting double teamed on every play.

3. If we keep the defense together, you'll be left with an inferior pass rush and no depth in the secondary, which is precisely what we had this year. The defense was good, even great at times, but its certainly not perfect and merely retaining the same players won't get it done.

4. I'm not opposed to resigning Williams at the right price, but he's not the kind of player I throw a blank check at. Same applies with Wagner.

Wagner will be significantly cheaper and if there's one unit on the team that you would largely want to keep together, its the offensive line. If you can bring back Stanley, Lewis, Yanda and Wagner, and get an upgrade at Center, you're looking at a top tier OL based on what I saw.

Much, much more important than retaining a run-stopping NT, no matter how good he is. Also, note that Michael Pierce played pretty well this season also, and I think he could play that role in a pinch.

Agreed with all here.

Michael Pierce is a perfect example of the 80/20 rule.

Also: What do you think a fair deal is for Williams? I think there's a divide  as to what NT's are worth these days.

1 hour ago, Virginia 55 said:

You do know that Brandon Williams is anchoring one of the best defensive units in football right? So explain to me how a guy that has to get doubled on almost every play is not earning his contract.

We could stand losing Wagner and a host of offensive weapons, because they are borderline terrible on that side of the ball anyway.  

 

 Keep the defense together. Or we will regress again this year.   If you pick perhaps another player like Doom instead, i could agree with you. Because I actually like Wagner, he's decent. 

Definitely don't let Williams walk.  

 

Brandon Williams was driven five yards downfield on one man blocks by the Patriots and by the Eagles. I haven't seen him regularly double teamed in quite some time. That doesn't happen to supposedly top five nose tackles.

He will be overpaid by some other team. It it not in our best interest to overpay a run stuffing defensive tackle that doesn't command double teams nor provide anything resembling a pass rush. It's 2016, not 1916. We need someone who can do more than be big.

I know the Ravens PR machine likes to make it look like Williams is always doubled, but it has become increasingly rare in recent weeks. Instead of doubling Williams, guards are going straight up to linebackers. I don't know why, but Williams has been mediocre for the past month.

By the way, were you ever going to respond to my question in the Flacco thread about Joe's giant cap hit, if we were to cut him? You seem to have ignored it.

Honestly, in 2-3 years, Dixon and maybe someone else. I don't see Dixon AND West being here in 2-3 years.

2 hours ago, redlobster said:

I wonder if weddle would be better suited at FS now. In my opinion he doesn't have the hitting power as a SS.

I know this point is disputed by the Bernard Pollard Fan Club, Madden aficionados, and the overly nostalgic, but in 2016, there is no difference between the two safety positions. Both have to be strong in coverage and be able to make tackles in run support. That's how the NFL works these days.

4 hours ago, Virginia 55 said:

You're okay with letting our best D-lineman (perhaps one of the best in the game) walk for an good O-lineman???

Considering Brandon Williams looked like a backup for the past four games, and Rick Wagner has been our best offensive lineman for most of the year, yes.

Williams has not earned the contract he will be offered. Rick Wagner has.

Bad pressure. When you don't win one on ones, it doesn't matter what the call is.

Jeremy Zuttah

Jensen 4 center!

Seriously just give him a shot and lets see what happens. Nothing to lose

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

These kinds of questions have no place here. You're not allowed to destroy a bad opinion with facts and intelligence.

Once that starts happening, fans start getting smarter. And when that happens, it's pretty much just anarchy at that point. I mean just imagine an environment where people only talked intelligently and had actual knowledge of the subject they're talking about.

That would be CHAOS!

I'm not going to sit here and say I'm happy with Joe's performance because in all honesty, I'd entertain a competition after this year -- if it was financially feasible. Joe's been terrible and I think I expected more development after the contract. He's regressed since 2014. No reasonable person would have expected that. It's not all on Joe, but he's just been mediocre. He isn't helping himself very much.

But it's just not financially feasible to cut him or move in a different direction. I don't even know if it's feasible to have a legitimate competition. 

There has to be acknowledgment of reality in order to have rational discourse, and the reality is, Joe is our QB -- for better or worse -- for the foreseeable future. The question that needs to be answered is: How do we get the pieces around him that make those years less painful?

7 minutes ago, Militant X 1 said:

How many sacks on Big Ben did his "emotions" have last night?

Ooof. Tough but fair.

18 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I love Brandon Williams, but I agree.  Focus on Wagner.  He had a very strong run at the end of the season and I'd much rather keep some consistency on the OL, and Wagner is one of the pieces that was working.  Williams is a good player and all, but I'd much rather us give the 80/20 rule a shot at NT since we already have Pierce than I would RT.  Sure, Lewis can slide over, but that still leaves a hole inside.

I love Lewis long term as LG or even swing tackle. Maybe even RG. I like him here. 

My mind is made up. Lock up Wagner and let William get overpaid elsewhere. I'd rather invest cap space and a roster spot in a lineman that can actually push the pocket in clutch situations.

45 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I don't know how PFF rated him for yesterday, but from my live eye, it looked like Williams had a terrible game.  I saw him being manhandled on numerous occasions.

To be honest, Williams played a terrible second half of the season. #UnpopularOpinion

12 minutes ago, HoldingCall said:

Hey! You win some, you lose some. Both players you listed are good players. Just give the Steelers credit for working to neutralize them. 

 

They neutralized our entire defensive line. None of our trench workers had a good day.

Jeff Zrebiec just tweeted that both Suggs and Jernigan failed to record a stat yesterday -- not even a tackle. I think I found the problem.

1 hour ago, Virginia 55 said:

It's always good when your starting 120 Million dollar QB can play well in three games out of 15 and we blame losing on our defense.

 

Flacco is not our guy.  Get him out of Baltimore!!!!! 

How do you propose we deal with the massive amount of dead cap?