donkeyking64

I think one of the problems, actually the only problem I have with any debate on Joe: 1. Salary - get over it everybody please. The going rate for QBs is not $90 million for 7 years anymore ok. When you look around the league and see the Ryan Tannehills and the Jay Cutlers and the Colin Kaepernicks signing for $100+ you should realize that. [profanity deleted] Ryan Tannehill man. Jay. Cutler. These dudes epitomize mediocrity. A QB great, good, mediocre - they are top dollar. Be grateful that at least your $100+ million salaried QB has several playoff wins to his name as well as a Super Bowl 2. What is top tier? You only need your QB to convert on 3rd downs, put the offense in position to score 6 or 3, take care of the football, and then of course give you a shot to win playoff games. That's top tier. List all Super Bowl teams since 2000 and tell me HOW MANY of those teams had QBs who played like "Top Tier". Point #1 - There have been 16 Super Bowl teams but that's only 6 of them. Did the other winners have "Top Tier" QBs or are you going to tell me the 1st 2 Pats teams had top tier QB play from Brady as did the 2016 Denver Broncos from Manning? Point #2 - does Joe make that list for you (same can be asked of Eli)? He had a VERY underwhelming regular season, then played top tier in the playoffs. <----you see where this is going? How many times has Matty Ice Ryan played "top tier" during the regular season and then looked like a kid sucking his thumb in the playoffs? Alex Smith? Andy Dalton? Cam Did you know that Joe Flacco ranks 10th All Time in the NFL with playoff wins? Only current players ahead of him are Brady and Roethlisberger. Joe (10) is ahead of Eli (8), Aaron (7) and Drew (6). I won't even go to Top Tier, let's just ask if Joe is a competent QB??? Cause if playoff wins define what makes you competent, he's got more wins than all these dudes that people have been claiming are Elite for years. This is where most people respond by saying - 'well Joe's been on better teams when he made it to the playoffs' or 'the defense won those games' which takes me back to the million dollar question - how do you define "Top Tier" QB. Because if teams that allegedly have a "Top Tier QB" can't figure out how to win with that guy even though he is Top Tier and Elite, what's the point of having the conversation???????????

Maybe he was throwing Jim Fassell into that mix and/or Mike Cavanaugh...???

Wow you went dissertation on me. After reading your response I will fall back on my disdain just a bit. After all, he did make the Jets look decent when he was OC there before coming to Baltimore as QB coach. That said, the bolded part is where I'm still salty...or concerned with him about. If you're going to pass the ball 40 times, it shouldn't be fore 2 yards 20 of those times. Receiver catches the ball and if a man is close by he gets tackled for a 2 or 3 yd gain. *sigh* You know what I mean? Perhaps it wasn't 50% of the time, but I saw that more times than I care to see in a game. And perhaps the Pitt game while it wasn't the very last game of the season, certain plays are etched in my memory. If Joe can throw the deep ball, let's see some of those attempts frequently. When I saw that Breshad would be getting a lot of playing time, I thought that maybe Breshad would be on the left side with Mikey Fresh Wallace on the right. Or perhaps both of them lined up on the same side of the field where both go deep. <-----that forces the defense to go step for step with one of those guys or when they are on opposite sides of the field, the safety has to figure out where/who needs help over the top. That may sound pretty generic or "Fans just make statements like that without knowing in game circumstances" blah blah blah blah, but it's just a numbers game. Make them figure out who they have to cover. They can't cover everybody. This type of alignment or play had to have been in Trestmans playbook. Go deep down field to fast guys. Is my thought process wrong on that? If not, we didn't really get that out of Marty. And when you got the 2 guys going deep, somebody ought to be underneath. And the thing with Torrey was if you threw the ball 3 times and the result was 0 catches, you were likely to get a PI 1 of 3 times. When I played they used to say the only defense against speed is PI

Was your perception that he utilized the personnel at an optimal level? Sounds like maybe you think Marty wasn't so bad, so I'm just curious.

That's not my thought process. I'm with you. I understand. And I guess I didn't properly articulate. I don't think 2nd and 1 means run the ball and I don't think 3rd and 2 means run the ball. I think if you ran for a big chunk of yards on 1st down. Then run again on 2nd as opposed to getting a big gain on 1st down, then passing on 2nd for an incompletion where you are now not really forced to pass, but the defense knows your tendencies. Those would be the game circumstances where I get frustrated. Obviously, this is not the team of the late great Zeus and Ogden and Casey Rabach and Mulitallo. But you also have some real agile backs in West and Dixon. Also, you could very well call a pass to a runningback a pass play you know what I mean. We have 2 backs that can both catch the ball out of the back field. We just didn't give either one enough touches and that also is part of the problem. I'm not saying West/Dixon ought to be a focal point of the offense, but if you told me the two of them combined for 40-45% of offensive touches, I would not be upset. I don't even think that was the case at all.

Didn't mean that at all. The balance was not even close in 2016. Someone said earlier it looked like the team had no intention of running. I saw it in the Cincy game - Joe drops back again and again and again and the defense realizes we can sack him pretty deep in the backfield. It just makes you predictable. It allows for the cover guys to better anticipate cause they know you're not really committed to gashing them with the run. Like who didn't see that INT icoming in the Colts Saints Super Bowl. Colts had dropped back to pass like 5 or 6 straight times. You had to see it coming from a mile away. Didn't mean to go off on that tangent but you get what I'm saying. Who doesn't know that the run sets up the big play pass. It's never been the other way around. So even if there is some part of your run game that isn't efficient or effective, that's still no excuse to have like 60/40 or greater pass/run ratio. I don't know what the ratio was for the season but I'll bet it was something unacceptable

I see now

This - over and over and over!

I may be the only person, but I think this team had enough offensive talent to contend. I think the issues at the Center position, and missing Alex Lewis really hindered the offense at the end of the day. But when you have a Steve Smith Sr, Perriman, Aiken Wallace, Pitta, Waller, Dixon, West, Juscyzk, I think you have some guys that can score points. You play to your strengths. They did not utilize the strengths of Perriman and Wallace and Flacco. Go deep. That's what those guys do well. All those guys could play for other teams. They could start elsewhere. For me it is a matter of competency. You have to commit to running the ball. That 2008 team would go play Pittsburgh and would just try to run on Pittsburgh on like 65% of the plays and get 2 yards most times. Same for their team against us. Committed. Dropping back 40 times a game is not the right philosophy.

Ray retired after the 2012 season. Ed went elsewhere

This This and This. Everyone can debate back on forth about going for it on 4th and whatever and say the coach needed to do that for the defense's sake because players were getting banged up and knocked out blah blah blah, but there isn't much debate on calling a pass play in the vein of aggression when you can choose to be SMART (see Eagles Game). Rookie OC's can figure that much out. This was not MM's first rodeo as an OC. That's actually why it's good to promote either the RB, WR, TE's coach or get an upstart guy from outside. Unknown coaches are just like 5th and 6th rounders. They are hungry and ready to make a name for themselves. Marty has been around for a while and his coaching track record speaks for itself.

Is the run game broken? I think we need a new center for sure, but how can the run game be broken if it isn't utilized? 2 guys that specialize in going deep (Perriman/Wallace) or at least 2 guys that have the ability to go over the top aren't given the opportunities to go over the top. Instead a chunk of pass plays originate from behind the line to gain. How many times in the last few weeks did you see that kind of pass? I think it is an issue of the approach to offense as opposed to fixing this or that. You fix those things from week to week. And if we are saying we need a new running back or new center that's one thing....but I don't think that's what you're saying. I could be wrong. We all know that Vlad Ducasse is not a starting Right Guard. But that doesn't mean the blame or issue is the run game

indeed

what playmakers? still waiting for the front office to draft some This offense probably had the most playmakers in the history of any Ravens offense. Steve Smith Sr Mike Wallace Breshad Perriman Kyle Jusyczk Terrance West Kenneth Dixon Dennis Pitta Darren Waller who probably outplayed Max Williams in his small handful of games compared to Max's 2015 season John Boyle never does bad things when he's on the field What more do you need. Josh McDaniels, Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, Gary Kubiak - all those coaches would kill to have this personnel. These are coaches who are accustomed to playing with 3rd and 4th stringers or castoffs that wouldn't make starting lineups anywhere else. In fact, if Crockett and Ben Watson don't get injured, some of these guys would have been playing key downs for another team In my humble opinion, that's more than enough talent to move the ball and get 1st downs. Any high school coach could dial up some plays against the most complex Rex Ryan or Chuck Pagano defense and still manage to convert 3rd downs. What the heck more do people want on offense

Possibly one of the Top 10 Worst Announcements in err... Check that, possibly one of the Top 3 Worst Announcements in All-Time Ravens History. At least one of the other 2 was announcing that Cam Cameron would stay on (2011). Perhaps the other one would also include the news about Cam Cameron (2012). Why does this team always have this cloud over their head when it comes to issues pertaining to the offense. QB, Receiver, OC...it just doesn't ever pass

Was he an offensive genius? Or did he just have All World Talent? And did his timing of All World Talent work to his favor?

I think it's CENTER, Corner, Pass Rusher. I don't know what kind of playmaker you need for Joe. This season Ravens had a plethora of options. I love Crocket but I'm not sure what needs to happen if he's never healthy. Camp same thing - we get to see what he's capable of but he's never healthy. ZoBot (Taliaferro)has been around for 3 seasons and every year ends up either on IR or not suiting up. I don't know if Joe had too many options and therefore didn't know who his go-to-guy is. One day it's all Wallace. Another it's all SSS. Another it's all Pitta. I think there are pass catching options and Dixon is going to breakout just like RR broke out in his 2nd season. Waller showed us what he can do and John Boyle showed us he can block and make plays. Max Williams will be there as well so someone can even be used as trade bait if necessary. Man - Benjamin Watson may even be there. The issue is one of efficiency and balance. And as you stated, if we get an INTERIOR LINEMAN - specifically CENTER, we may be able to run the ball and control games the way the Cowgir....boys are doing right now. But to be 100% honest, the pieces are there on offense. They need to be utilized in the most effective way. The Cowboys have an explosive RB and Dez Bryant gets double teamed all day long. If you play your offense right, you don't really need "an explosive" whatever whatever. Certainly is a nice to have, but not required. Playmakers are needed on DEFENSE. Judon is a baaad baaad man in the making.We need our version of Khalil Mack or Von Miller opposite him. And we need another version of Tavon. And I would not be salty if the entire draft class was interior lineman, corner, pass rusher. Maybe I'd take when running back since ZoBot is probably not going to be around again

Rounds 1, 2, 3, 4 of the draft should include corner, pass rusher, center. Just don't know what goes 1,2,3,4 and how many pass rushers vs corners Jerraud Powers and Brent Urban (aside from his long arms that block 2 kicks and 1 last year) stink Judon did great things and may have made more plays on tape than Z

I think now that he's had a full season, he will hunger and thirst for greatness. He has the physical tools and has the great intangible of having a father who actually played the same position...and he grew up around Michael Irving and whoever else. Remember this - OBJ, Mike Evans, Amari Cooper were all anomalies. Sam Watkins and Brandin Cooks to an extent as well. 2013 was more like it. Remember how people on this board were clamoring for Tavon Austin?? He went #8. Cordarelle went 29. Neither have done anything. Keenan Allen went in the 3rd round and as the 2nd most productive WR from that class, he's never stayed healthy. DeAndre was the big prize but even he didn't blow things up immediately. He got to learn in year 1 from Johnson. Breshad was injured all year 1. And in year 2 he got to make some plays while learning from Steve and Mike. Everybody pump the brakes on calling him a bust. Would certainly help if we had competency at the OC position but unfortunately the year started off with Trestman, only to end with Marty M.

Would be awesome to bring David Shaw back to the Ravens as an OC...but unfortunately the most logical move for David Shaw when he returns to the league would be as an HC. Maybe they could lure Mike Munchiak from the Steelers. An o-line guy will almost definitely focus on the run game. He won't be relieved of his HC duties, but I would take Hue Jackson. You guys see where this is going? Too many ifs. Everyone that could make sense is in a stage of the coaching carousel where the timing isn't working out for Baltimore. Pep Hamilton wouldn't be a bad move. I like where your head's at with the in-house guys and I especially like the idea of a Running Backs coach getting promoted to OC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did Norv Turner just peace out completely? I mean, has he not been a competent play-caller wherever he's been. He may be pass happy, but he's at least efficient and effective with his pass plays. Or is that just my inaccurate assessment. I think Marty is trash. You say he passed too much with Andy Reid, but Andy Reid passed too much when he was calling plays so that's probably more of the same mindset as opposed to Marty's own. And it's not that he passed too much, but when that's what he called, there weren't enough downfield balls. I said something earlier this season about throwing the ball behind the sticks and then someone chimed in with something like 'oh all these people that complain about not throwing the ball to or past the 1st down marker....' ok...but how many times in 1 game do you need to throw the ball to a receiver for him to gain 1 or 2 flipping yards from the LOS? That doesn't make sense. 2 deep pass threats + the most accurate deep ball passer = 0 downfield attempts.

Yeah because there was never any other small school QB (Ben Roeth, Steve McNair, Brett Favre, Chad Pennington, Rich Gannon, Andy Dalton, Blake Bortles) to be taken and play well in the league. Typical nonsense homer article. Probably why there's only 7 replies

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Ray-Lewis-Passes-Torch-To-Joe-Flacco/d903bf58-4e53-4ae2-97b2-50bbfce2c6b7

In this latest criticism did he mention how "I played 17 years in this league"...did he drop that soundbyte?? Further to my last post, all he had to say was something like 'Joe isn't playing like a $120mm QB' ...and if he really wanted to "light a fire" the way some folks are suggesting it, the better way would have been for him to say something like a. Joe isn't playing at the same high level he played at in my last few years with the team... b. Joe can do better and he should...expect him to bounce back c. This isn't the same Joe that took us on the epic run...I expect he will change that Anyone of those approaches would have been much better than whatever he said

Man I knew I'd check out this post amidst the Ray Lewis comments and people would be slurpin (not trying to be mean mods) up Ray Lewis. For the LOVE, can 90% of the contributors once just say that Ray needs to chill? Notice I didn't say 'say that Ray is wrong' cause I know that'd be waaaaay too much to ask. This is the same man who when he was on the team would claim this and that about how Joe is our guy and he's always been a leader and 'I've always been a Joe Flacco fan since day 1' and then the minute he's no longer an active player has to provide criticism RE: lack of leadership, Joe's personality, blah blah blah. Yes - as a media guy now, that's his job. But there's a right way to do it. Just say the man has played inconsistent and we need him to do better. No need to suggest that his personality is why he doesn't play well after the last 5 seasons you played in the NFL the man helped the team win at least 1 playoff game and play in 3 AFC Championship games! When was the last time a Baltimore Raven past or present suggested something about Ray Lewis's personality in a negative connotation??? Cause Lord knows all my non-Ravens friends have something negative to say. He needs to chill.

Hey MODs and content providers/beat writers, would it be too much to get a section of the site or article every week that highlights who got injured during that week's game?