Cawtious

21 hours ago, billiejean said:

Do you have NFL game pass?

Sunday Ticket, yes.. I also record every game and play them back watching specifically the O-line

15 hours ago, billiejean said:

I dont think you can come to that type of conclusion based solely on "filmstudy".  Although Ducasse is terrible he played better than those guys did at the beginning of the season.  I think the real question for John would be why did we cut Ducasse and let Urschel and Jenon start ahead of him.  Does the RSR have a place where they post the grades that players recieved for each game in one place or is it a bunch of different articles.

Didn't say I based on filmstudy solely.  I have eyes and watched game films.  Just my opinion and I guy I have respect for.

1 hour ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I think relying on Nembot, Jensen or Urschel for next season would be a mistake. Both Jensen and Urschel had the opportunity to claim a starting spot last year and could not do so. Their play was disappointing. Expecting Nembot to step up from the practice squad to the starting lineup is quite a reach. We need better O-line play than these three can provide.

I think what was disappointing was not the play of Jensen and Urschel.  What was disappointing is the evaluation of their play compared to Ducasse.  That's an evaluation issue, not a playing issue.  They are both better than Ducasse, IMHO.  Looking at their grading by Filmstudy and watching the games carefully, I don't see them as a downgrade at the position. 

I question Castillo and Harbaugh, in regards to their judgment. 

What creates havoc on an O-line is constantly mixing guys up in their positional assignments, and not letting a unit gel (when you can, sometimes injuries make that difficult/impossible).  Playing musical chairs up front is not helping the issue. 

1 hour ago, sami said:

if Zuttah is so bad how did he get to go to the pro bowl? I don't see what the ones who voted him in see.

He wasn't the first ballot guy!  He go there by default of 3-4 others not going due to injury or offseason surgeries pending

49 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I think short of Ryan Jensen, the rest are all gone. We'll be fine though. The loss of these guys will help us with comp picks for next year and all three are replaceable with either existing players, free agency or the draft. Wagner will be the toughest replacement, but Alex Lewis can excel there over time. As for Juice, I feel Boyle can replace him as a second blocking TE clearing lanes for the RB. Brandon Williams will be replaced by a rotation of Pierce, Henry and Davis.

If the Ravens tender Jensen, I think he may have other suitors.  Mangold may demand too much $$$.  I can see the Browns pursuing him as they have the cap $$$ to spend.  If the Ravens keep Jensen, I think they will also retain Zuttah at least for now and let them battle for the C position.  Jensen will probably draw a 6th round tender.  JC Tretter is lurking in free agency.  His $$$ demands may be somewhat less than Mangold.

Wagner will be a tough replacement.  If they push Lewis outside, then we are looking for a LG.  I don't see Urschel as that guy currently.  John would be a backup C or LG.  May need to bring in another LG from the draft, or leave Lewis there and bring in a RT in the form of a 2nd or 3rd round (good use for our compensatory pick) Hurst= Gone  Wesley = Gone 

If Wagner is swept away in FA, I can see Lewis stepping in there.

45 minutes ago, billiejean said:

Yea, I had actually never heard of film study.  I am not sure if this is the right site or not but when I googled film study the site NFL breakdowns comes up.  There is some interesting stuff on there.  Or is the film study you are talking about on the Russel street report?  Either way both interesting but they do something totally different that PFF.  Instead of analyzing every single play they only analyze a handful of plays per game and from what I have seen there is no grading system (could be at the wrong site though).  PFF has its flaws but its a comprehensive analysis that takes into account every single play that a player has had in that year.  There is a grade given for every single play regardless of a players role in that particular play.  For example if Dixon is in the game but he doesn't get the ball, he is still given a grade based on his blocking, route running, or anything else that he was supposed to do on that play.  There is a link below that shows exactly what they do.  But I think the Film Study sites also provide useful analysis, just in a different way.  I think all we can hope for March is that there is plenty of good young competition at the interior OL positions and RT if Rick leaves.  If he does leave, which is more than likely, I am holding out hope that A Lewis will be able to adequately replace him but we wont know until he gets out there.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/

FilmStudy is the handle of Ken McKusick here on this board.  He has the most comprehensive analysis that I've looked at.  He analyzes each play, not just a percentage of them.

Alex is going to be very good.  He gets his strength up and more experience, he's going to do very well.  He has the pedigree and the potential to be an excellent player.  I doubt we retain Rick Wagner.  I'd like it if we did.

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:58 AM, billiejean said:

 

All of that said, I think you are selling Jensen short by comparing him to Reid.  I think he is better than Reid ever was.  If we bring guys in and Jensen beats them out that would be awesome.  The only problem with him is consistancy.  One week he would have the best pff grade on our offence and then the next he would have the worst.  That isn't hyperbole either that really happened in 2015 a few times.  But to be fair, it is hard to be consistent if you are not consistently in the game as a starter.  In that 2015 season he really did show promise after he got into the swing of things.  I wasn't necessarily implying that Jensen couldnt play center.  It was an assumption on my part that he wasn't working at C much this season, based on the fact that he was a healthy scratch for 8 games this year while Urschel (who  plays both C and G) was activated.  Killing two birds with one stone type of things.  But I was probably being a bit too presumptuous.  There could be another reason.  Why do you think he was inactive for so many games?

Oh, I'd be the last person to sell him short.  His situation is similar as Reid's.  He could very well be pulled away and hit a big payday.  Reid did struggle.....no doubt. 

As for PFF, I tend to trust FilmStudy's analysis over theirs. 

I think you hit in on the head on Jensen's "consistency" problems.  I also think they stem from bouncing him all over the line.  He was a co-captain during the Raiders game and then he's benched the rest of the season.  I didn't see anything remotely close to warranting that action.  I think there is more than meets the eye.  He didn't have any reported off the field issues, nor any on the field issues.  He didn't have an inordinate amount of penalties.  Ducasse played well towards the end of that stretch, but I didn't see him outplay Jensen on the field IMHO.  Perhaps it came down to playing the guys they are paying higher salaries and using them up.  Perhaps they wanted Jensen to roll into 2017 in great health to make a run at supplanting Zuttah.  It's hard to know.  Same with Urschel.......

To me, it was perplexing to see both Jensen and Urschel sit out, but I surely don't know the situation full enough to understand if there were problems with either of them.  I know I'll get the meritocracy argument, but I think players getting paid to play......play.  Guys with lesser financial draw sit more often all things be equal with their level of play.

Jensen rolls into next year healthy and with 4 seasons under his belt.   I think even with an original round tender, the Ravens are going to get pushed by someone to pony up a contract for him or he's gone.  I don't see his wire being quiet.  Urschel will be back for his final year of his rookie contract.  I think he's one more concussion from calling it a career.  Guy is probably losing money playing football with a mind like his. 

Its going to be an interesting March......

On 2/8/2017 at 1:19 PM, billiejean said:

When Jensen has played he has played better and has been graded higher than Urschel. He is stronger than John and better at the point of attack. He was a healthy scratch last year for a lot of games because Urschel can play at any of the interior OL positions. With all that said Jensen performing a bit better than Urschel doesn't mean that we should count on him as a starter. If either of these guys is named the starter going into the season we are going to be in big trouble.

Disagree.  Jensen can, and has played in all of the interior positions and also had a game at Tackle during pre-season .  The Ravens will tender him, but I think he's been underestimated by most and may sign elsewhere.  Think Jah Reid.  KC paid big money for him even after he was cut and placed on waivers.

Other teams recognize that our lineman are capable.  The fans don't seem to think it very often.  

18 hours ago, bigcatfrank1 said:

 

I am not sure the Ravens are going to shoot for a high round draft pick for the C position.  Three guys on the roster that can start at that position.  I think we opt for defense in the first two rounds. 

Urschel is in his last rookie contract year, so he stays.

Zuttah will be going head to head with Jensen again this coming year.  Jensen, if tendered will pose about a 1.8 M cap hit.  Think Zuttah's hit is close the 3 m? (not sure on this one).  One guy will be the odd man out.  Methinks Zuttah will be.

Jensen will be tendered.  I have little doubt about it.  Doesn't mean he'll still be here, though.  Br

If we lose him in FA, or they choose not to tender him, I think Zuttah stays and Urschel will contest him for the starting C position.  We would then draft a C in the 4th or 5th round to develop.  Skura is lurking as well, although he needs more lead in his seat, which is very doable.

Guess I don't see a high round pick for a Center.  I think we've got that covered better than what I see in the secondary.  Draft high for our defense.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 7:07 AM, PurpleCity5 said:

 I can legit say that Center is up there with OLB/CB in terms of priority and you might be forced to draft one early because there's no FA's there, after that you have Jensen. Do you feel any sort of confidence in any of these guys? Because I have none in them.

 

JC Tretter is a FA this year.  He's done well with Green Bay.  If Jensen is tendered, I would suspect he's going to be in the mix for the starting C job.  Tendering him may see him in a different uniform next year, too.  I'd give up a 6th round depth pick for a 4 year guy that's healthy and can play guard or Center. 

On 1/14/2017 at 5:31 PM, Ravensfan23 said:

 think Lewis stays at LG and they attack RT either through the draft or even in house with Jensen which is his natural position. 

 

Jensen's natural position is Center.  He played tackle in college, but from pop Warner through HS he was a center and long snapper.  He's what we need at that position.  I still think he's part of that plan

On 1/9/2017 at 5:40 PM, billiejean said:

It is very clear you haven't been watching Zuttah. The worst center we've ever had?? After that ridiculous statement I am not sure why I am even dignifying you with a response,.but here it goes.  He was graded the ninth best center in the league last year and he will be graded in the top half of centers this year.  There are two possibilities here.  One, you have no idea how to access offensive line talent because you don't know what they do.  It would not surprise me if you couldn't tell the difference between a bucket or pull step and a false step. And you probably would have trouble differentiating between a pulling lineman and any type of cross block.  But hey maybe you do know about what goes on in the trenches.  If this is the case then your problem is that you have not watched Zuttah on every single play, assessed his performance on the play, and made a tally somewhere in a book so that you could add them all up at the end to see how he did.  You know like PFF does twice over.  But if I were a betting man I would say its both.  You don't know much about offensive line play and you are judging Zuttah on  .1 percent of the plays that he has played this season.  I would be fine with letting Zuttah go because of the money but not without bringing someone in, because if you think Zuttah has been the Ravens worst center ever (Did you just start watching the Ravens this season? Do you not remember Gino Gradkowski or AQ shipley?) you will be in for a rude awakening if either Jensen or Urschel are relied upon to take that spot next season. 

The awakening will be relief.  

On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 6:44 PM, rmw10 said:

Watching MNF right now, I think Ronald Leary is the only OL I'd pony up some money for.  He's a FA and the Cowboys have La'el Collins, so I can't see them being willing to pay him.  The fact that he's been a backup is crazy considering the lack of OL talent around the league.

I agree with you.  I think its going to be hard for any decent veteran OL with starting ability to be retained.  We'll probably need to draft for backup OL this year in the later rounds.  I think Ducasse and Jensen get courted by other teams this year.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least.  I've been tough on Ducasse, but he's shown steady improvement and played well against the Steelers.  I think many teams will have a hard time retaining guys with starting experience if they are available.  Leary plays very well.  He's going to get a chance and get paid.

Ducasse is not C material, but Jensen has that in his resume.....making him a target even as an RFA.  Urschel will be the next target on the block next year at this time unless the Ravens make a move with him and he beats out Zuttah in camp next year and they resign him.  Ducasse could win a starting job elsewhere, although he's getting towards the end of his career, I believe.  He'd be a good stop-gap for a one year deal for someone.

TJ Lang would be a great pickup, but not sure about the cap and if we'd be willing to pay him.

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 8:33 PM, Gruntled Ravens Fan said:

A couple of things we need to do in order to make a Super Bowl run next year.

1. Aquire interior offensive lineman either through the draft or FA

2. Draft a pass rusher with the our first pick and let him start and have Suggs play on passing downs only

3. Get our Safety position figured out. Either draft a Safety or get someone younger to replace Webb 

4. Add more playmakers for Joe to throw to

TJ Lang is entering free agency.  He would be a great pickup.  Question is could we afford him?

Thanks 89!  Love how you play the game, and your toughness!  Enjoy the fruits of your work and your family going forward.  Baltimore has been a better place with you and your family here!

Godspeed and best wishes!

How do we put in the rest of the backups when we only have 7 backups on the 53?  Cut people and see if they clear waivers?....

Play to win.  Losing for the sake of draft picks is how you become the Browns. 

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Yanda can probably play every single position.

to the same level.....I don't think so. 

Few lineman have the same effectiveness from opposing sides of the line.  Anyway.....It's obvious the Ravens don't see Jensen as a starter.  I think he could be if they get him off the carousel. 

On 12/20/2016 at 4:04 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

Mostly because versatility is vital for reserve lineman. Does him no good to focus on one position.

Unless they want him to develop into a startee

18 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Why did you only pick the last three games though?  (Relevant to the reason he is playing and Jensen is not at this point.  It shows the difference in three consecutive starts, and that is all Jensen has for relative comparative data i.e., comparing consistency of play with three consecutive starts for both.  Jensen's grades were declining slightly, but significantly better across a three game stretch than Ducasse's. 

Plus, prior to the Eagles game, both of Ducasse's previous two games against Miami and NE was better than Jensen's first game against Oakland, and he also has the highest individual game score between the two (against Cincinnati).  (He came in to play in Oakland with one week's practice time at guard to prepare.  Prior to that he was working at Center. Goes to my belief that he wasn't the plan for being a backup guard.....He was getting most of his work at Center.  The technique and spacing is different between the two positions.  I think Jensen is much better as a Center in Pass Pro)

I would also point out the now notable asterisks with FilmStudy's grades (as noted by Ken himself)... he emphasizes pass blocking significantly more than run blocking, and he notably gives much harsher grading for penalties. I believe he referenced that two penalties pretty much automatically gets you a failing grade, but there might have been a slight modification to that. (Penalties kill drives.  Both were subjected to harsh grading due to them.  I'll note Jensen has only had two this year, I believe.  Sauce for the goose or "the odds are even" in the grading system.  )

I trust PFF slightly more, though I haven't looked at the detailed scores for Ducasse vs Jensen at that point anyway. Granted, they're not playing the same teams either, so its not exactly apples to apples.  ( Filmstudy adjusts scoring based on quality of opponent across from them.  I find PFF doesn't normalize their data, just as you indicated. )

A bit of a moot point at the end, because I don't think either has been particularly good, nor do I think making a switch offers a huge upgrade either.  (Fair enough! )

16 hours ago, The Raven said:

He's been a pro for, what, four years? He's had chances. C'mon now.

As someone who once played line, I think Filmstudy's grading is mediocre and his system is misguided. I think it's a wash between Jensen and Ducasse, but Jensen's pass pro was definitely worse.

Realistically three.  Missed his first season including a majority if not all OTA's due to a broken foot.  I didn't say he didn't have chances in the TWO prior seasons.  He did not get WORK at the guard position THIS season during camp.  Now since I've been as clear as I can about that;

His pass pro needs more work.  What helps ANY player is settling into a position and not being bounced around back and forth across the line.........and consistent playing time. Just my thoughts, as I think he would develop into a great starter given that consistency.  I like his fire and even our beloved KO gave the guy props when he played beside him. 

21 hours ago, The Raven said:

No it's not

Yes he did. He got play time there.

And... Ducasse has overall been better than Urschel and Jensen, to me. Alex Lewis is a bit better in pass protection but it's kind of a wash. 

He was not given a chance to work at that position during camp.  He was thrust into playing guard without the prep, is what I am getting at.  He spent most of camp working as the backup center.

Go take a look at Filmstudy's grading of Ducasse over the last three games and show me on Jensen's grades where he was worse that what Ducasse has shown this year.  Ducasse is abysmally worse.  I spend a lot of time watching line play and he's not better.....not by a long shot.  I trust Filmstudy over my own opinions, and yours......no disrespect intended.....just props to what Filmstudy does.

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well its not like they haven't had opportunities to do so. You had Yanda and Zuttah missing decent time in the offseason because of previous injuries, and you had a rookie in Lewis competing at Guard. So two interior positions on the Oline were essentially up for grabs, and neither of these guys won either of them.

That tells me something. 

 

Urschel did have the opportunity at guard.  Jensen did not.  He was practicing at Center.   I think Jensen was getting looked at C for competition to drive Zuttah.  Not sure what the process is or is going to be going forward.  I scratch my head as to why they keep bouncing him around and not let him settle in at a position.....but all I can come up with is they don't want/need him to be a starter and look at him as a backup only.  Comparing his play to Ducasse, I would take Jensen......hands down.

This team will rise to the occasion on Sunday.  I'll be there yelling my head off!  So many things can change due to injury potential or injured players returning to the lineup (Smith, Lewis) week to week........Need to go 1-0 on Sunday, and worry about the Bengals after the results.

My hope is we make the playoffs.  My first concern is the Steelers.  Only game that matters at this point!

37 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

...Still, this formation of the line has served us well to this point, outside a few penalties, why mess with it.

I don't think it has served very well, but that's just me! 

13 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

We just don't see what these guys are looking like in the practices. We always have to realize that we see about 5% of what these guys do (and then we only see what is painfully obvious), while the staff sees everything. I was surprised from the get-go that Jensen was not our starting LG and that Lewis had taken his place. I have to think if Jensen was truly our best option, he'd be out there. 

Jensen was pushed into Center most of camp. Didn't play many snaps at the G position early on this year.  Notwithstanding all of that, his GRADES compared to Ducasse are pretty much glaringly better.  I disagree that he's not a better option than Ducasse.  But it is what it is.

He's been on a positional Merry-go-Round since last year.  I've heard they have him practicing at T now and not giving him reps at C or G.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me if that is what is going on.  March 14th will answer that question.