Purple_City39

13 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Gregg was underrated yeah but to be fair he had this fella called ngata beside him.

You dont seriously want to suggest that jernigan or guy are on ngata level orso?

Id give 11m to the key piece on the dline.
Back then it was ngata.
Now its williams.

PS: the FO let the RT go not the offense .....

Yeah so Gregg was pulling the same sack numbers from 02-05 (although 05 was the first year switch to the 3-4 IIRC, he still did it before Ngata).

No, Jernigan is not currently on Ngata's prime level, and neither is Williams.  Ngata didn't have to come off the field consistently on obvious passing downs.  11M for 60% of the snaps just doesn't seem like a solid investment to me.

And I know who let the RT walk.  Do we need to be this literal?

The Webb move sucks to hear.  Hope they bring him back on a cheaper deal.  We don't really have backup safeties worth mentioning anyway

7 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

 

I fixed that for you.

Not so sure about that.  Remember, Pierce was also in on passing downs while Williams was on the bench

Is anybody more comfortable with Wesly/Nembot/Draft pick taking over the RT spot than they are with Pierce taking over the nose?

14 minutes ago, Jonah DeVito said:

11 million for a RT...No way. That would be much worse than Williams getting 11 million. 

My apologies if this seemed confusing but when I said "giving him the contract he received", I mean the 9M a year Wagner got from Detroit.  Giving a very good pass blocking RT 9M a year is a better investment, to me anyway, than giving a run stopping d-lineman 11M a year

29 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Did the offense get the memo that its a passing league?

 

17 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Williams was 4th among NT in terms of sacks.

Do you even know what a NT job is?

Clearly the offense didn't since they let a pass blocker go.

And yes, I know what a NT's job is and my exact point is that it's not needed at 11M a year.

One thing being hung up on, it seems, is the fact a NT's job isn't to get sacks.  And I fully agree, which is why I also wouldn't overpay one.  The Ravens have been running a 3-4 for a long time now.  We've seen NTs that actually somewhat contribute in the pass rush.  Constantly underrated Kelly Gregg could get after the QB from the nose position.  3 sacks in 06, 3.5 in 07, missed all of 08 after a microfiber surgery (IIRC) then came back in 09 for another 3 sacks.  This doesn't include pressures, just sacks.  He also ate up blockers in the run game and was a tackling machine.  That's the type of player I give 11M a year to play the nose.

8 minutes ago, mc_red23 said:

The only way I see Corey Davis being there is if that 4.22 from John Ross shoots him up the board and above Davis. The Bills could do with a WR.

It's actually possible.  Ross was already considered a good route runner with good hands if I'm not mistaken.  Adding record breaking speed might make a team completely revise their draft board at WR.  Some consider Ross too small, but he's actually taller and heavier than Antonio Brown's recorded size so who knows.

I think it'll come down to who the first team to draft a WR is.  If it's the Jets, Davis has no chance to hit 16.  If it's Buffalo, then there's a chance

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't want him to go man. He's been one of my absolute favorites because when he struggled at cb for reasons out of his control, he took a paycut, when they asked him to change positions, he did, and he played pretty solid there. 

I don't understand why people want him gone so badly, he is one of the best draft picks we have made in the Harbs era, and he can still be of great value to the team. If we don't plan on making any other moves this offseason then I'd prefer to keep him, his value as the 5th db on this team would be huge. The difference between our secondary with and without him could be huge, as depth and as a 5th db for certain packages. 

That kind of player could be the difference between making a run and falling short because of an injury.

There seems to be a mob mentality or one lasting impression when it comes to Webb.  I also don't understand that hate he's garnered.  He played pretty well last season and I still see people say he sucks and should be cut.  I get that the cap hit is higher than many would like, myself included, but he's been an A1 character guy and one of the most loyal players to the organization in a long time.

Boldin refuses a pay cut, people are mad at the team for trading him.  Webb takes a pay cut and position change while playing well at new position, people want him gone.  I don't get it

Even if they get Claiborne, I still hope they go CB in round one, especially if a good one is there (Sidney Jones realistically).  Can't put all that confidence in a CB more injury prone than Jimmy to start opposite Jimmy.  For all we know, and I pray it doesn't happen if we got Morris, they could both be hurt by week 6.

Now if Corey Davis is there at 16, I get him.  The Eagles were expected to get a WR in round one and I can't see that happening now so there's a chance.

34 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think you underestimate what Brandon Williams does.

Williams is one of the best if not the best defensive lineman against the run. He basically can stop the run by himself. He allows Suggs and others to be able to rush the quarterback more often. People look at his stats and think he should get paid off of his stats, when in reality he should get paid what he contributes to this team.

He does a lot of the dirty work on this team much like Jarrett Johnson so many years ago even though it is a different position. 

Wagner is in the bottom half of the league against the run and the front office said they want maulers and they want to emphasize running the ball again. That is the exact opposite of Wagner. The Ravens have replaced RT's in the draft relatively easily before I'm sure they can again. Also there are cheaper options later around training camp. 

I think he is overpaid as of now as well, but think in 2 years he will be on pace and you are keeping one of your defensive franchise pieces.

You're comparing them by pointing out Williams' strength and Wagner's weakness.  It works both ways:

Wagner is on of the best right tackles at pass blocking, meanwhile Williams is in the bottom half of the league at rushing the passer.  The front office has also said they want to get after the QB more..

Yes, the Ravens have replaced RTs relatively well but they've also done the same on the d-line.  Many thought the world was over when Ngata was traded.  Only difference to me is, we've seen Pierce play well in place of Williams.  We haven't seen anyone play well in place of Wagner (Yanda notwithstanding) and we'll be going with a relative unknown there.
 

For the record, I like Williams.  But imo, if you're going to overpay for one of the two, you pick the one that not only caters to the type of league we're in (passing), but the one that better helps your high priced QB investment

4 hours ago, Tru11 said:

he is not overpaid.
Its called market value.

or is this an exclusive argument for just 1 particular person only?

 

In a passing league, a QB coming off a historic post season run on his way to superbowl winning MVP becoming the highest paid at his position is market value.

In a passing league, a DT/NT who can only stop the run coming off a season that ended with opposing teams running all over his defense becoming the highest paid at his position is overpaid.

And no, it's not exclusive because if we'd have given Wagner the same contract he received instead of paying Williams, I'd fully agree he earned market value.  Since he's a top end pass blocking RT in a passing league

Bet the Ravens knew about this when they signed Woodhead. 

21 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

Can't believe the Browns re-signed Bitonio, and came to an agreement with Zeitler AND Tretter.  Their line is going to be sick.  The RT won't even matter

And as soon as I give them credit, they do the typical Browns thing and make me regret it.  Osweiler traded to Cleveland.

Although after reading the trade clause, wow.  They get a 2018 2nd and 2017 6th and only give up a 4th.  Houston realllllly wanted Brock gone

Can't believe the Browns re-signed Bitonio, and came to an agreement with Zeitler AND Tretter.  Their line is going to be sick.  The RT won't even matter

2 hours ago, ludy51 said:

He really came into his own last year though, was a top ten rated corner by week 12 last year

That's amazing since he didn't play after week 7

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I can't be on board with paying a run studding NT any more than like 6m a year. I don't care if he's the highest character most likeable man ever born, I can't be ok with it on this team, too many pressing needs and future cap implications to do that

I agree with this.  It's a passing league and we're likely about to invest big money into a run stopper at a position this team tends to fill relatively easily

Looks like Torrey to the Eagles.

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Like who? 

FA LOST: 

Kyle Juszczyk

Rick Wagner

FA GAINED:

Tony Jefferson

Danny Woodhead

 

That is an equal number from what I see. Granted we have Guy, Williams, Aiken left who could offset the additions but we brought back Mallett so there's no offset there. 

The thing is, there are qualifiers if I'm not mistaken.  Aiken is as good as gone, and the contract Woodhead gets (liekly very cheap, will be offset by him.  They try to compare value.  Bringing back Mallett won't factor in.  Re-signing your own doesn't impact comp picks

38 minutes ago, Purple_City39 said:

I don't know if it's against forum rules to post links, but for anybody looking to migrate elsewhere, I go to another message board that started 3 years ago.  It's a full on sports message board with individual team pages.  The Ravens fans there are pretty level headed and reasonable, but due to the low total number, it's hard to engage in a lot of Ravens talk.  Other team's fans come over also and they're pretty reasonable.  I've been discussing football there with Steelers and Browns fans since about 08 (I know I said the board opened in 2013, but most of us there migrated from the old SeeBS message boards).

Again, not sure if I can post the link here, but anyone interested can message me.  The Mods are pretty reasonable.  There's also plenty of boards for mock drafts, draft discussions, other sports, politics, wrestling, and a general message board for each sport

Looks like we can post links.  For anyone looking for another board (or another board in addition to the ones linked), here's the one I mentioned.  We could use more knowledgeable Ravens fans

http://live4sportnetwork.com/forumlist/

19 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

Yes... too bad their OL is still hit garbage.  I'd say our line healthy is better than theirs even without knowing our RT situation.

For now.  Wouldn't be surprised if that's their next focus.  OBJ, Marshall, and Sheppard in the slot will be a nightmare for NFCE defense. 

I don't know if it's against forum rules to post links, but for anybody looking to migrate elsewhere, I go to another message board that started 3 years ago.  It's a full on sports message board with individual team pages.  The Ravens fans there are pretty level headed and reasonable, but due to the low total number, it's hard to engage in a lot of Ravens talk.  Other team's fans come over also and they're pretty reasonable.  I've been discussing football there with Steelers and Browns fans since about 08 (I know I said the board opened in 2013, but most of us there migrated from the old SeeBS message boards).

Again, not sure if I can post the link here, but anyone interested can message me.  The Mods are pretty reasonable.  There's also plenty of boards for mock drafts, draft discussions, other sports, politics, wrestling, and a general message board for each sport

1 hour ago, Ravens4Real said:

The Steelers actually managed that situation pretty well, if you ask me. Even with all those years of restructuring and such, they were still very competitive. What was their worst season? I believe it was 8-8? Now they are in a good situation over there and are able to sign all of their big name guys.

I honestly feel that we should do what they did a couple years back and say goodbye to their marque older players and just start fresh.  

I disagree.  Those contracts were horrible because they kept having to restructure guys one year after they signed them.  It led them to years of cap issues and their defense took a huge plummet once those guys left.

Now, what they do that Baltimore needs to start doing is re-signing the right players BEFORE they hit free agency.  Letting guys hit free agency is what's forcing the team to pay top dollar on these contracts.  B.Williams would have been a lot cheaper, same with Wagner, if re-signed last year.

21 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Yeah, I've seen that around, what would the cap implications be if we do trade for him, I know Phil would have to pay him part of his salary but I don't think the year one cap hit will be sizable. He does have a cap hit of $10M though for 2018 so I honestly think a cut would be the best route for us. 

He'd have to be cut unless they get him to agree to a new deal before the trade.  The site I normally use is down, but it looks like Barwin has a 7M salary this season so that full 7M goes to the new team if he's traded

Not sure if it's been discussed, but how do people feel about Michael Floyd as a FA WR?   He's pretty much played as well as Garcon/Britt since he's been in the league minus a very down 2016 season, but that down season and other issues will keep him very cheap and under the radar and durability has not been one of his issues.

Admittedly, I've never actually watched him play.  Just going off stats and posing a discussion piece

4 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I might be in the minority here, but after thinking about it and talking about it I think we keep both Williams and Wagner and make some cuts that will include Pitta, Watson, Wallace, Wright, and Doom. 

I think the team views them both as priority 1A and 1B and I think we're going to try our hardest to retain both guys.We will have more to work with and both guys should be highly valued and I don't think Williams is making a lot more than Damon Harrison is. I don't think Wagner is setting a new record for RT money and both guys remain here. 

You don't even need to cut Wallace.  Pitta, Watson, Wright, Dumervil, K.Lewis, and Arrington get you 15.86M in cap space immediately.  Right tackles typically average 7M or less (minus one extreme case) and DTs of Williams' one dimensional caliber (although strong at it) shouldn't cost more than a 10M average at worst honestly.  If you consider how all Ravens new contracts have a low first year cap hit, both should be easy to sign.

The reason these six players make the most sense is because they all have a replacement under contract right now and the team wouldn't need to scramble to find players.  Maybe a FA CB if they don't like Canady and want to have numbers before drafting one or two.  Wright and Pitta are the only ones that really played last season and who really thinks we'd crumble with Gillmore/Boyle/Waller and a rookie CB taking over their snaps?

This way, IF it comes to it, you still have another almost 15M to open up from Webb, Wallace, and Zuttah.  Problem is they DON'T have replacements already under contract

14 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

lol......you got me. I didn't look at the stats but only remembered winning those early playoff games and the tough luck against the steelers in the AFCG. 

No Problem.  In all honesty, I primarily remember how bad he was in that AFC Championship game because I unfortunately know a few Steelers fans who wouldn't let me forget that game (or the 2010 one) until 2014.  No exaggeration here.  I've also had a debate on rookie QBs earlier this year with a Cowboys fan so I've recently researched the numbers. 

I was surprised (when I had the rookie QB debate) about the Titans game though after seeing the numbers.  For some reason, I remember Joe being better in that one

31 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

hmmm......school me. What rookie QBs before and after 08 looked better in their first playoff games? 

Okay so just to be clear, Joe's rookie playoff numbers were 44% in completions, 146 yards per game, 1 TD, and 3 INTs in three full games.  In all honesty, you'd be hard pressed to find a rookie QB that had a worse playoff performance.  Off the top of my head, I know Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, and Dak Prescott had better performances.  These are my "I didn't double check" players

Now, I'd also venture to guess Andy Dalton (sadly), Andrew Luck, and  Mark Sanchez (he was clutch in the playoffs for NY from what I recall) were all better as rookies also.  And after checking these out, I'd say they were better also.  Sanchez can't really be argued.  Luck and Dalton can to an extent, but not to me since both had higher completion percentages and yards per game.  There 0 TD percentage does fall below Joe's .333% though so that's something.

I'd venture to guess not many rookie QBs even make the playoffs, but I also doubt you'll see a performance as bad as Joe's for awhile.