rmcjacket23

Exactly. It's like when the lions had to resign Megatron. Or the vikings had to resign AP. Or when we had to resign Ray lewis. Unless something goes wrong those calaber players NEVER leave those teams.

True, but Jimmy's also not at that level yet.

He still has to prove he can stay healthy for an extended period of time, and most importantly, he's got to prove he can come back from a tough injury for corners and return to form.

Neither of those is guaranteed at this point. If he comes back to 2013-2014 level, he's a prime candidate for the franchise tag and a long-term contract.

How we approach the TE market (either FA or draft) will largely depend on how the FO assesses Pitta's situation. At this point, I don't know that they are going to be looking for his permanent replacement, so I do doubt that they go 1st or 2nd round TE. If they do, that will be the sign that they've written Dennis off. 

 

If they still hold out hope, a cheap, underrated vet will be the direction they go. I'd love to see that vet just be Daniels returning, but I don't think the underrated part applies and I don't really have a sense of how "cheap" he will be. We may need to look for a guy like Miller, who we may be able to get on a deal similar to what we got Daniels for ... not only a low cost option, but a 1 year deal.

 

That will give us the ability to give Dennis 1 more year to see where he is. If he can come back, great, if not, then we'll need to look for a more long-term solution. 

I think they're looking to the draft for a TE in either scenario, though resigning Daniels probably makes it less likely that they target one early.

If Daniels heads elsewhere, then yes, adding a veteran FA TE coupled with a draft pick makes some sense. I'm not convinced that Trestman will want to run a TE based offense like Kubiak wanted, so we may actually see more 3 WR sets under Trestman, particularly if that's where our best receiving options lie.

Seen Taliaferro's collegiate highlights and what he gave us this year, he looks like a 3rd down back. His best game came against the browns who had one of the leagues worst run defenses. He only gets what's blocked. Ridleys vision is much better and he is a purer runner. Why waste time to develop a guy rather than get a reasonably affordable, talented guy in his prime?

1. Obviously, nobody cares about collegiate highlights. I've never learned a single thing about a player watching his Youtube highlight videos... there's undrafted FAs who are destined for the CFL that have highlight videos that make them look like Jerry Rice in his prime.

2. I agree that Taliaferro is a 3rd down back, but that's also irrelevant, because him being him means that spending much more than the minimum for anybody else is sort of a waste of money. What we do know is that he could probably easily average 4 YPC with this offensive line. That makes a 3rd down back a 1,000 yard back with a Forsett-level volume, hence why 1,000 yards doesn't mean much to me.

3. Ridley might be prime in age, but there's virtually no guarantees he's actually prime from an actual production standpoint. He also has terrible hands, which is problematic, given that our new OC really likes utilizing RBs who can catch passes, and Ridley's pass blocking is also suspect, hence why he was off the field a lot in NE in those situations.

4. In the present day NFL, there's really no such thing as "developing a RB". Most guys drafted in the first 3-4 rounds can be plugged into the rotation right away, just like Taliaferro and others were. If you are spending 1-2 years waiting for a RB to develop, you are already missing out on like 20-25% of their career.

Stevan Ridley.

Let Forsett walk, he'll demand around 2-3 mill more. Plus he's 26, 3 years younger than Forsett and there's no doubt that he can be a 1,000 yard back

You can find a rookie in the 3rd or 4th round easily that could match or exceed Ridley's production.

Being a thousand yard back isn't exactly difficult these days... that's roughly 60-65 yards per game. Taliaferro could do that with 15-20 carries a game too.

I would hate for us to pass on DGB just because of an accusation. I'd take the risk.

Not sure getting booted off a team qualifies as an "accusation".

Even without the domestic violence situation, there's plenty of risk and plenty of reasons to let somebody else draft him.

In fact, there's plenty of on-field questions that DGB has left people asking as well...

Neither brings anything to this team that we don't already have (with or without Forsett).

I'd be more comfortable rolling with Taliaferro and Pierce...

How confident is everyone that we can get Ngata and Yanda extended and Webb restructured before free agency opens. Or do we want to make other plans for them.

Confident with Ngata, not sure if there's even discussions with Yanda (think that's fan speculation at this point), and unsure about Webb.

Webb wil get restructured. He already did it in the 2014 season and he's all for helping us.

Different completely though, because Webb didn't take a paycut in 2014. All he did was take non-guaranteed money, guarantee it as a bonus and spread it out. He lost ZERO money on the restructuring.

Doing something similar again doesn't really benefit the Ravens, because it means Webb's cap numbers in future years will be higher and it makes him much harder to cut in the future, which should be considered a possibility certainly after this coming season if he doesn't perform a lot better.

What the Ravens most likely are looking for is for him to take a paycut, which is easier said than done.

Pierce started and got yanked due to fumbling, as I said. Pierce lost the job and Forsett was originally an afterthought who knew the system that was in the right place at the right time. 

Nice try, but no. This would make sense, except for the fact that the very next week, in week 2, Pierce outcarried Forsett 22-8, and with ZERO fumbles.

So apparently, that fumble in week 1 didn't amount to a benching at all, considering Pierce got an almost 3-1 carry benefit less than a week later.

What REALLY happened is that Pierce got injured in week 2, and Forsett had a better YPC average when he wasn't in the game (Pierce averaged 4 YPC in the first two games, while Forsett averaged 5.8 YPC in the first four weeks).

He did a great job with the job but it was out of need. Rice was supposed to start and got cut and pierce couldn't

pull his own weight. Pierce did start week one. So aForsett didn't win the job more so as we had to have him start.

Pierce had six carries week 1, Forsett had 11.

IF Pierce started, it was on paper, not reality.

Really?? OK prove its a bad idea. I'LL actually give u multiple chances. Name 4 edge rushers you like that will turn out to be better than Aldon Smith that we can get at #26. Keep in mind we only get to actually pick one of these players. But just to show how rare a talent Aldon Smith is and how difficult it would be to get an elite esge rusher, you can take as many guesses as you want actually of who will be better than Aldon. Don't 4get to ## your guesses of who you like best to least likely to be better than Aldon Smith. Playoff time next year you can check the progress of your players to see if any of then even flashes Aldons Skills and production.

I think the thing that you are ignoring is that this isn't Madden... there are costs and consequences to every decision.

1. Aldon is a prototype 4-3 DE, which means he would either need to transition to OLB in a 3-4 or play DE in a 3-4, which has some significant differences in responsibilities.

2. He has a well-noted history of off-field problems, and basically another single offense would probably put him in danger of missing an entire season or most of it.

3. He's a FA in 2016, so I don't really understand the point of trading for him in a contract-year.

4. If he were to be traded and did play well, you'd be looking at spending significant amounts of cap space and cash on a new contract for him, funds that we almost certainly don't and won't have.

Ignoring everything else, those are all serious considerations that would have to be addressed before you even sniff a trade for him. Trades are never just as simple as "well he's better than any first rounder we would get", because that's not the whole picture of compensation being given.

All of this is moot, obviously, because you and I both know that the Ravens aren't trading for him anyway.

Some of us didn't want him to be re-signed. I recall at least myself and one other member who were very much in agreement that handing a RB a big money contract is a mistake. I didn't hate it when we re-signed him, because I like Ray and while I knew he'd slow down, I hoped he'd maintain his ability as a receiving weapon. Again, while I didn't hate the contract I hardly praised it and questioned the deal for the long-term benefit of the team.

So no, some of us didn't praise the signing.

Thus my precise words of "the majority of the fanbase". I'm not really interested in what a small minority of the fanbase thought.

I'm sure the same small minority hated the idea of giving Joe Flacco top tier money also, but when the same question that was presented for Rice was presented for Flacco, we all got the same blank answer... what is the alternative?

I agree dude. The Rice contract was inexcusable for Oz. Even Dallas wouldn't give Murray $40mil and he was near 2000 yards!! RBs aren't worth that kinna $$ in the modern NFL. Especially with all the wear on Rice's tires. There isn't much difference in good RBs and great RBs and Rice wasn't really great. RBs are more a product of their system. My opinion is use early Rd picks on dominant OLineman once you have a franchise QB of course and find a Round4 RB to run for 2000 yards!! You got RBs coming off practice squads and cut for other teams running for 158 yards or more and averaging 5.0 yards a carry or more. You don't see that from any other position. Ray Rice looked to be slowing some anyways and had a lot of carries in college as well. I don't know what Oz was thinking on that one or the Pitta contract after countless injuries or signing Jacoby like he was starter caliber. If he is going to be given credit and called Wizard for good decisions then his bad decisions need to be factored in and answered to. Like I said even Jerry Jones knows better than that.

And yet, at the exact time of when his contract was handed out, the majority of the fanbase was praising Ozzie for locking him up long-term, and the even vague thought of Rice being allowed to walk in FA would have caused a fan uprising the likes of which Baltimore has never seen.

Hindsight is a great asset for fans, but its also a worthless asset.

Agreed, you implement an offense based around his skill-set and I bet he would surprise a lot of people, especially if he eluded injury doing what he does best. If Tyrod gets no offers and wants to stay as our backup at the right price, I would love to keep him.

I think that's the problem though... you'd have an impossible time naming one NFL team that would actually design an entire offense around Tyrod's skill sets. Frankly, I think any NFL team would have a tough time actually defining what his skill sets are. We know that he can run, what there's not much indication of anything else.

He's not exactly a revolutionary type talent, so I don't think his ability to run will all of the sudden take the NFL by storm, since he's not the first or last of those types of QBs in this league, and most of them never really amount to a successful NFL QB.

Frankly, if I were a team that actually wanted Tyrod as my starter, I'd FORCE him to be the QB I wanted him to be, and the QB that the NFL requires you to be. I'd force him to stay in the pocket at least 90-95% of the time, and deliver accurate throws all over the middle of the field. Because realistically, if you can't do those things, you can't play successfully in this league.

Merge thread.

Forsett and CJ are the same age and CJ would be cheaper and running behind yanda very well could look like the cj2k of old.

I'd give Ray Rice a better chance of being good than CJ. Age doesn't really matter... its usage.

Forsett has been in the league 7 years, and has 582 carries (about 81 carries a season on average).

CJ has been in the league 7 years, and he has 1,897 carries (about 271 carries a season on average).

A grand canyon level difference between the two in my opinion.

I'm not quite sure what your current stance is.  Yesterday you were saying you seriously doubt Ozzie has ever not signed a player due to comp picks, now you're saying they don't sign "cheap" free agents because of the comp pic process.  The Brandon Marshall concept doesn't apply because if we get him this offseason, it means he was cut or traded for and thus, not affect comp picks.

 

My original stance was that Ozzie does not go after UFAs often, regardless of whether they are expensive or cheap, because of how the affect the comp pick process.  You disagreed with that here

 

 

 

Do you see how these two bolded sentences contradict?  If you're now agreeing that Ozzie does avoid UFAs due to his love of comp picks then we are in agreement.  A franchise that has had the most comp picks since 94, while not being established until 96, says a lot

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other...

My entire post and process of posts was related to the fact that people said we will not sign Brandon Marshall because of comp picks. I said that there's probably never been a single time where Ozzie didn't sign a higher quality UFA because of the comp pick process. My premise is that there's nothing to gain from getting a comp pick instead of signing that player if the comp pick you are getting is incredibly unlikely to contribute in the manner that the quality UFA would. That is why, when players like Daryl Smith or Dumervil become available in FA, Ozzie has never been shy of signing these players, because the comp pick doesn't mean jack when compared to what those players can bring.

Like anything else, its an assessment of whether or not the UFA we would sign could be replaced by a comp pick or not. For a large amount of the cheaper UFAs, the answer would probably be no, hence why we tend to not target those.

I understand we've led the league in comp picks, and I'm sure that's by design. But keep in mind... that also correlates with the fact that the Ravens rarely have a bunch of excess cap space, thus, signing UFAs on an annual basis isn't easy anyway. I couldn't tell you the last time we had anything even resembling quality cap space available ot spend on players, and that's completely fine, because most of the good teams in this league spend close to the cap.

The problem here is that you're only thinking about the big names and higher priced free agents.  I only mentioned those names to show Ozzie isn't afraid to spend a little.  You're ignoring the fact that we don't even go after cheap UFAs.  Just looking at last season, we didn't we go after a proven former Baltimore player who was a free agent like Josh Wilson but go after Aaron Ross?  Wilson signed a 1 year deal for under a million.   The reason is, Wilson was a UFA and Ross was cut.  

 

This is just an example as I know Wilson was an UFA off the top of my head since I had a discussion on it last year.  But again, it's not only about the expensive guys.  Feel free to name the last 5 cheap UFAs we've signed.

 

Dumervil and the Smith's actually back up my point.  Ozzie isn't afraid to go after names and spend a little money......so long as they are released/cut by their teams.

Correct, but you are essentially echoing what I already said... Ozzie WILL sign a UFA if that player is perceived as upper-echelon enough that we couldn't replace him with one of our comp picks. There are people saying that we wouldn't sign a Brandon Marshall because we want the comp pick... that's not logical.

I agree that we don't sign "cheap" FAs because of the comp pick process, mostly because the FO thinks they can using a comp pick and get the same level player anyway, so it doesn't benefit them to sign the UFA. Its why we sign guys like the Smith's and not some cheap, borderline NFL-talent corner, because we can't find a replacement for the Smith's in the fourth round of the draft most likely.

You think it's a coincidence?  Who were the last 5 UFAs signed by the Ravens that you recall?

 

In terms of the importance of comp picks, Gilmore, Taliaferro, and Juice are a few examples of what Ozzie can do with comp picks.  It's why he'd jump into a bidding war for someone like Dumervil, Smith Sr, etc but you almost never hear about him going after others.  For a front office that admittedly loves having as many picks as possible, I'd bet they factor in comp picks when they choose who to go after in free agency right along with price, age, etc.

Yes actually, I do think its a coincidence. You answered your own question in your next paragraph, when you alluded to guys like Dumervil, both Smith's, etc.

The factors that you are NOT considering is 1. its not a coincidence that in recent years our activity with UFAs has been limited by the amount of actual salary cap space we have, which is a far greater consideration than whether or not we can get a comp pick for it and 2. whether or not the FA we would be signing could be replaced by a comp pick in the future.

Given that the names you described would be almost impossible to replace with a 4th round comp pick, it doesn't make sense for Ozzie to pass on them if we have the cap space and we want them just so he can get some late 4th round pick, who by your own examples, will turn into quality ROLE players IF they tap out on their value.

A few issues with that.  The first is what his price tag will be.  Might be too much for Baltimore.  The second is that he's a serious concussion risk.  And 3rd, Ozzie isn't a fan of the unrestricted free agents as it hurts the comp picks in the future.

1. I think his price tag would be small, given the injury risk. He's actually likely to get a short-term, "prove it" deal most likely, which is something the Ravens would probably be interested in.

2. I think the notion that Ozzie doesn't sign UFAs because of comp picks is a myth. Historically, comp picks don't amount to anything, and I seriously doubt Ozzie has ever once not signed a player solely because of a comp pick. If we don't sign a guy, its because his price is too high or we simply don't want him.

I think there's some similarity in their game. You are right about Flaccos arm talent. I would like to see what a real offense could do for Glennon though.

Well, Glennon certainly had two very high quality weapons to throw to last season when he was a starter, and he wasn't overly impressive during that time.

I understand their O-line was nothing special and not much of a running game, but you could also argue that he's had better weapons to throw to in his short career than Flacco ever had, and made a lot less out of it.

Mods, feel free to take care of this...

I reckon it pays to wait for the whole offseason to play out. There seems to be a few sides focusing on hanging on to their existing talent.

That would be the camp that I'm in...

I'm sorry man. I mean he is below average. Dare us is easily top 5 in the league at his position and young. There's just zero logic here whatsoever.

Based on the week that I've been in this league, from what I can tell, its basically just to see how many trades you can make and how exponentially different you can make a team look in one offseason.

Hence why I said my money is on a lot of the teams making a lot of moves actually being worse on paper when its all said and done...

Average should be good enoght with my trio

They are RBs, and past their prime RBs at that.