rmcjacket23

Whats stopping us from getting both?

Am I the only one that finds it amusing that he references Ellerbe, Redding and Johnson as three play we let go in their "prime", yet in the few seasons since they've been gone, they haven't performed nearly at the level they did when they were with us? I mean did you actually look and see what guys like Ellerbe, Kruger and JJ have done since they left this team? I mean lets look at the "facts" shall we... JJ: apparently let go in his "prime", where he had at least 50 tackles for us from 07 through 2011, yet in two years for SD, he's had 40 or less and recently agreed to take a paycut. Sounds like we let him go at his peak to me, not prime. Ellerbe: after a grand total of one quality season in Baltimore, he had virtually the same amount of tackles with less sacks in Miami, while making nearly $7m a season. And the Dolphins feel so great about his skills that they are moving him from MLB to weakside LB, which is essentially a nice way of saying "you're not good enough to lead the LB core". Sounds more like peak than prime to me. Kruger: After 14 sacks in two seasons as a viable player on this team, he took $8m to go get 4.5 sacks as the top pass rusher on a bad team. Sounds more like peak than prime to me. I'm not even sure why Cory Redding's name is on this list, because he wasn't very good for us and he hasn't been very good ever since. The guy is two years from retirement. If he's your argument, you've got to try harder. There's people that talk about facts and there's people that provide them...

Correct, doesn't mean a draft pick has to play much or at all this season. But something tells me that a draft as deep and talented as this one is at the WR/TE position that Ozzie is certainly going to get somebody. Plus, I don't think the FO really views Brown, Mellette or Jacoby as viable options long-term in this offense.

Whats stopping them from doing both? Its actually what I see them doing.

The rivals? Of course not, because nobody trades people to their own division. Can you explain then why the Vikings were able to offer a 7th rounder for him though? I thought he was only allowed to be traded to "little brother"? But, as always, I'll go ahead and put the challenge out there... please provide a source for this claim that Harbaugh would only trade Boldin to his brother. I suspect this is one of those cute little fan generated conspiracy theories, but I'll await the source of your information. Here's my source... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/11/vikings-made-a-play-for-anquan-boldin-too/

1. There is no doubt in my mind that this team is drafting a pass catcher in the first three rounds of this draft, regardless of whether they add a Steve Smith or not. Adding a veteran is putting a band aid on a broken bone, because he's essentially a short-term player. If Steve Smith gets signed, its going to be for the short-term. Beyond Torrey (who isn't even under contract next season currently) and Pitta, there are gigantic question marks with every single pass catcher on this roster currently, including Brown (who I will now address). 2. When you say "he will only get better"... that is defined by one word... guess. You are guessing he will get better. The list of players just like him who ended up with 3 or 4 total years in the NFL is a mile long. Could he get better? Absolutely. Will he? Time will tell. Me personally... I think its entirely possible we've seen the best of him. I know its fun for fans to project that somebody who had 600 yards in year 1 is going to have 1200 yards by year 4, but theres really no evidence to suggest that. Just like thinking since he scored 7 TDs in year 1 that he will be scoring 10+ next season? If they bring in Steve Smith and another rookie (which is likely), how often do you even think Brown is going to be on the field? In a 2 WR, 2 TE set, which is what Kubiak runs most often, Torrey and Smith are on the field, and Brown is on the sideline. The only chance I even remotely see of Brown being an integral part of this offsense next season is via injury. I see him as a role player in the redzone, just like I see Jacoby (who is also competing with Brown for snaps on offense) as a role player on offense. The fact that the FO is even addressing this idea both in FA and in the draft, to me, is indicative of their views of the talent of the younger guys in this receiving core. So, in summary, NO, Marlon hasn't "proved he can play". I'm never going to claim anybody has "proved they can play" based on one season with the team. To me, Marlon is a JAG player... "just another guy".

Except you wouldn't be able to trade him after two more years, because he's about 2-3 years from being out of the league completely. Nobody offered a 4th or a 5th round pick for him, therefore its just silly to pretend like he's worth that price. Its like people pretending like they know how much a player should get on a contract. No person is actually overpaid, because the "market value" of a player is, by definition, the amount that somebody is willing to pay for them. If Boldin was placed on the trade market to every single team (which he was) and nobody offered more than a 6th round pick, then he's worth a 6th round pick.

Yes, but keep in mind... the mantra from their supporters on this team is that they should basically be handed a job, just like they couldn't understand why Tommy Streeter wasn't given a starting job two years ago. Competition brings out the best in everybody... with one caveat. The loser of the competition doesn't get to play on Sunday's, which is the goal of the whole thing. There is no minor league baseball system in the NFL. If Mellette gets beat out by a rookie and/or a veteran for a spot on this roster, he doesn't play. He practices on the practice squad, and he competes at a high level during training camp. Mellette and Brown could turn out to be very good players... but if they can't beat out the person in front of them, we will never have any idea of whether they are very good players or not, because they won't be playing. You bring in somebody like Steve Smith and then use a first or second round pick on a WR, they are essentially handed gigs on this team, while guys like Brown and Mellette aren't. There's a big difference there.

They might also be thinking... "jesus, we feel so great about his skills that we are bringing in at least two people to compete for the exact role that he had last season".

And by the way... for all the people that think this team is pretty good at WR currently... the FO doesn't seem to agree with you. I expect the Ravens to add two pass catchers this offseason, one in FA and one in the draft. To me... thats a pretty good indication of what the franchise thinks about guys like Marlon Brown and Aaron Mellette.

Agreed. I don't think this concept is difficult to grasp at all. You bring in Steve Smith, and you make him compete with a likely top 3 round draft pick for playing time. The reality is... short of drafting somebody like Sammy Watkins or maybe a Mike Evans (who both seem unlikely), almost any WR we bring in is going to need time to adapt to the speed of the NFL, and in general, not many WRs walk onto an NFL team and dominate.

So your basis for a #1 receiver then has how many yards, TDs, etc. he gets? Interesting. Are you aware of what the word "subjective" means?

You mean the same #1 WR Tate that averaged 20 yards per game during a SB playoff run? That #1 WR? The one that they could have easily retained if they thought he was worth it? The one that was paid $6m a season to be a #2 WR in FA? Welcome to the definition of subjectivity my friend.

It means every single person has a different OPINION of what a #1 WR is. Some think its the guy that puts up the most stats, and some thing its the guy that teams target when they need a conversion. In general, I'd like to think that if a team's fans have to argue about who their #1 WR is, then they probably don't have one. I think the Ravens would fall into that mode, and have for years.

Just out of curiousity... what is your basis for thinking Boldin is worth a 3rd or 4th rounder? Are you aware of what we traded to get him 4 years ago? Why would his value of have gone up since then? Also, since you are certain that he could have fetched that price, can you please provide me the name of the team that offered that price? I'd be very interested to know this, since nobody else seems to know. If nobody offered that price... wouldn't that tell you something? I mean I know its cool for fans to pretend like they have a clue what a players value is, but rarely are they ever even in the ballpark. I'll give you a hint... the Vikings were the first one to come calling. The best receiver on their roster at the time was Jerome Simpson. They offered a 7th rounder. Sometimes facts just get in the way of a good fantasy...

1. I don't know... why isn't Pollard in KC anymore? Or Houston (where he had over 100 tackles in back to back seasons without playing every game)? Fool me once... shame on us. Fool me four times... POLLARD IS THE PROBLEM. 2. Ed Reed made so many plays for the Jets that he got benched. That happens to all good players right? 3. Boldin was gone because the FO didn't value him at $6m and he's in the twilight of his career. I know its cute and all for fans to pretend like Boldin would have put up 1,100 yards for the Ravens last year, but its naive. Bitterness isn't good for the fan card bro. The "Harbaugh doesn't like anybody who challenges him" guy is the same guy who thinks 9/11 was a government coverup. They have nothing better to do, so why not start wielding conspiracy theories that have no bearing whatsoever. Its a fan created myth, nothing more.

But he's just not a very good football player anymore. It would be hard for anybody to even identify a valuable skill set he brings to a team currently.

I seriously doubt D. Smith will accept another one year contract. He can likely get multi-year from several teams.

And thats the point... why do fans keep referencing his accomplishments as a receiver, which are minimal to begin with, when his offensive role on this team even at this very moment appears to be very, very, very minimal? Again, if we add nobody at WR the rest of the offseason, its difficult to see even an average-sized role for Jacoby in this offense. Its not like defenses don't know what Jacoby does. He's not going to run all the routes on the route tree, and he's going to be a player that attacks the safeties deep down field. Of course, we already have another player who does that also, so as we saw last season, going deep all the time doesn't really work well when the defense doesn't respect what you do anywhere else on the field. Its hard for me to envision a scenario where Jacoby has an increased role on offense from what he had in 2013, and the Ravens being a contending team.

Its not a bad deal in terms of the financial committment, because they can get out of it easily if it doesn't pan out. But lets not kid ourselves... the offense will be more effective if Jacoby is on the field less. We know this for several reasons... 1. We intend to run the ball more, and run the ball more effectively. If Joe is throwing it less, it means Jacoby is on the field less. The most prevalent times that Jacoby was on the field were on 3rd and long (which occurs due to penalties and a lack of a running game) and in the hurry up offense. 2. I think every single person on these boards expects the Ravens to add at least one more viable receiver this offseason, whether thats through FA or the draft, and I personally think it will be two. 3. As such, whoever we add is very, very likely to be ahead of Jacoby on the depth chart, for obvious reasons. Therefore, Jacoby is at best the #4 WR, and the #5 option in the passing game, behind Smith, Pitta, Brown and at least one person that we add this offseason. So assuming that we are able to run the ball better and that Kubiak doesn't design a 5 wide, go-route based passing attack, can somebody tell me precisely when they expect Jacoby to be on the field on offense? I mean I'd consider 10 snaps a game to be optimistic based on what I see. If he's on the field, in my opinion, the offense isn't doing what its supposed to be doing. We are either playing from behind, or we are in 3rd and long often, neither of which is a good thing. If nothing else... I'd be slightly worried if I were a big supporter of guys like Brown and Mellette, because if they are competing for #2 or #3 WR roles, and they struggle, they will have an extremely short leash. If we add even one pass catcher, I don't see how Mellette is even active on gamedays without injuries. And remember, some of you want to add Owen Daniels as another TE option too. Depth is always good, but I think some of you overvalue what certain players on this team bring to the offense.

But he really hasn't made any moves. He re-signed a LT that we already had, and re-signed a ST player that we already had. It just took him longer to do both than he probably wanted. We typically wait longer in FA to bring in guys who weren't ours to begin with.

He's a big part of what we do on ST, of which our HC values greatly. Probably more than I do, but that doesn't matter. Does he change anything about what we do offensively? Likely not, but he does bring benefits that are valuable to Harbaugh.

And the FO sees the same thing you do, except they realize that this is day 2 of FA, and that we have until August to try to solve these problems. It doesn't mean that we do nothing in the meantime. Just because it isn't the first thing we addressed doesn't mean we aren't going to address it or find it unimportant.

So you agree then that all five offensive lineman need to go correct? I mean you can't argue that we should let Monroe walk and then justify keeping Yanda or Osemele, because they were part of the same problem. And how can you justify keeping the QB who threw a ton of INTs? Or the RBs who fell down at the first sight of contact? Or the receivers who routinely couldn't get open against man coverage? You can blame as much or as little of this on the offensive line as you want, but the fact remains that virtually nobody on that offense last season played to the level they are capable of. But under your logic, they should all be gone. Good luck replacing five offensive lineman in a single season. I'd call it a miracle of you could do it in two seasons.

Not buying it. First off, Jacoby is only getting $4.5m guaranteed, of which a large chunk of that is surely guaranteed for this season. Therefore, if Jacoby doesn't have good return yardage and isn't scoring TDs on ST, what value does he have any longer? I know people like to pretend like Kubiak has something in store for him because they've worked together, but have any of you actually seen how he was used in Kubiak's offense? It wasn't much, because the types of routes that Kubiak likes his receivers to run aren't the kind of routes that Jacoby is good at running. Jacoby's absolutely maximum value in an offense is as a field stretching deep threat, of which we already have a similar type player, so that's not going to fool defenses very often. Jacoby is much more effective in a more vertical offense, such as the one Caldwell ran. If I'm an objective fan, I'd expect to see less of Jacoby on offense this year.