rmcjacket23

Imagine if hooker fell to 16. I'd bet everything I own that we would have moved back lol Not real sure. Depends on how we had him graded. If he was there and so was Humphrey, I have no idea what we would have done. DeCosta said that he was surprised Humphrey (among others) were still on the board when we picked, so hard to tell who was rated higher. I don't think having Weddle on the roster would have impacted the pick though. He's on the back end of his career for sure.

Would have made more sense IMO to evaluate what it would have cost us to move up to 14 for Barnett, that seems a more realistic move. Best guess based on draft chart is a 3rd round pick. So at the end of the day, you'd have to ask whether you think Humphrey + Williams is a fair trade for Barnett? And again, we're just assuming that Philly would be OK with that kind of deal. I would assume its far more difficult and pricey to trade with another team so you can select a player that they like themselves. No real knowledge behind this, but I assume most of the times these trades go through, the team moving up isn't selecting a player that the other team likely would have taken.

Well if you mean eventually... Crockett Gilmore is the most likely to leave after this year because his contract is up. I dont see Williams or Boyle being let go before their contracts are up as long as Boyle can stay off the suspension list and they both stay healthy. I wouldn't necessarily use the label "axed" to describe a player not being resigned after his contract is up though. And unfortunately not everyone that makes it to the NFL can be great, but I'm sure that's what their mothers tell them. I think Maxx has to make a much higher contribution this season to stick around beyond this season. Once you get to year 4 of a rookie deal, you pretty much know what you're getting. And he's done pretty much nothing for two years now. Crockett at least has shown to be an effective blocking TE and could be resigned for cheap. I think its a make or break year for entire TE core. I don't think both Watson and Pitta make this team out of camp, and whichever does survive is probably in the last year here anyway. Pitta will be 33 going into the 2018 season and carrying a $5.2M cap number with not much dead money... and its the last year of his deal. You got Pitta and Watson heading out the door, Gillmore a UFA after 2017, and Maxx/Boyle/Waller all in the final years of their deals in 2018, with no significant money invested in any of them. You could see some gigantic changes to the TE core after this season if we don't see some separation from the pack.

What I heard was they tried to move up for Reddick but where did this moving up for a WR come up? Was it just speculation that if they moved up to get one of those receivers then it would cost this much, yada yada?? Plus in addition, to me, its clear to see why a trade up didn't work... Look at the teams they were probably trying to trade with. If they were trading in the teens (assuming this eliminates trading with NO at 11), that means trading with Arizona, Philly, or with the Colts (which means jumping right in front of them, which seems odd). So to me, its basically trading to 13 or 14. Well those teams pretty clearly coveted the same players that we wanted. All of them took defensive help, and all of them really could have used the same players we wanted. So unless those teams didn't value those players that highly, its pretty clear why a trade up didn't work. Realistically would have had to move up to like 11 to get our guy, and that's even more costly. And frankly, the way the draft was going, we probably expected one of those guys to fall to us. By the time the Texans traded up to 12, we've got at least 3-4 guys on defense we clearly liked still available, and only 3 teams ahead of us. Just didn't fall our way. If Philly took Allen instead of Barnett, maybe Barnett or Hooker is a Raven.

What I heard was they tried to move up for Reddick but where did this moving up for a WR come up? Was it just speculation that if they moved up to get one of those receivers then it would cost this much, yada yada?? Yeah I think fans are blending two things together. DeCosta said that he anticipated a WR or two being available at 16 when they picked, but they never said anything about trading up to get one. When Ozzie specifically said they were targeting trading up in the teens, it obviously couldn't have been for a WR, because those discussions were happening after the top 3 WRs were off the board already. Had to have been for a defensive player, and I agree it would have been Reddick, Barnett, or outside chance of Hooker.

Agreed. I personally don't think Ross was a consideration for us, because he doesn't fit the mold of the type of receiver we were looking for. So in order to land Davis or Williams, knowing what we know now, you've got to move up to #6 overall basically. Moving from 16 to 6 would have easily cost us a 2nd and a 3rd in addition. That means you're trading our top 3 picks in this draft for one WR in a bad WR class. Just don't see how you'll ever get the ROI out of that.

Why would we have Webb playing dime CB? I can't fathom how you would consider us not playing Humphery in that position. More than likely, we'll have Canady as a 5th CB, and he was doing a fine job playing ST until he was injured. Humphery will more than likely be given every opportunity to compete for Carr's spot, but likely will be in nickle/dime packages. In any case, if you haven't been watching Raven's games the last few years, we have had so many problems fielding a competitive secondary late in the season, it will be a relief to have capable guys who can come in and play at a high level. Webb may see some time at CB, but my prediction is that would be very limited and only if the injury bug hits us during a game. He's going to be the main back up safety,(and wouldn't be surprised if he does some return work also) not a full time CB. In my ideal world, we play a lot more dime packages (something we literally played none of last season) and Webb is part of that package, as a coverage guy either at CB or Safety (in Dime I'm not sure it really matters). Lack of depth/quality player at ILB to me means we should put more secondary players out there, especially on passing downs. Finding a way to get Weddle/Jefferson/Webb on the field at the same time seems like a good idea to me. You didn't pay Carr to sit on the bench. The dime might play 1 down out of three and as of yet Humphrey isn't proven. As you mentioned we have Canady and Sheldon Price from last year that when they played they were good and showed much potential. We have oodles of safety's. Was Humphrey that great a pick in that we ignored other needs - specifically o-line. With a trade back you get that o-lineman , you get an extra pick and the dbs are still strong and you have improved the o-line. IMO this was a miss. Now that the pick has been made I want Humphrey to be all-pro but that means Carr or Smith sit and they are getting paid big bucks. Yeah but you're ignoring several key aspects: 1. Jimmy gets hurt often. If he's out, you feel good about Carr as your top outside corner and somebody like Price or Canady as your #2? Sounds like one of the worst starting corner duos in the league to me. 2. Smith turns 29 this year. That's not old, but its not young either. Carr will also be 31 this year. So you're two starting corners outside are basically 30 years old. How many years do you think that is sustainable? 3. Carr isn't paid big bucks. He's 31, he's an average corner, and he's making $6M this season. That's not big bucks by any stretch, especially for a corner. Its #2 corner money in this league all day long. He's also got no guaranteed money left on his deal after this season, which means he's basically 50/50 at best to be back on the team next season (when his cap hit more than doubles). Easy expectation for me... Carr probably plays one year here, and then leaves for more money or returns on a reduced contract as depth when Humphrey starts over him next season. Frankly, if Humphrey is any good, he may outplay Carr by mid season and take his job. Wouldn't surprise me. In either scenario, its a good move. Rookie corners usually struggle in this league, and waiting until the moment you need one to get one is a disaster in most cases. We drafted Jimmy when he wasn't an immediate need either, and it paid off. 4. All of this also ignores the fact that in order to trade back, you need a trade partner. Everybody keeps listing the reasons why teams would want to trade back, but don't list any why a team would want to trade up. And if you can't figure out a reason why a team would want to trade up, then you already answered why we didn't trade back.

If only he would learn how to use his size. Steve Smith played bigger than he did last year.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense. I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away? There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing. We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league. Times change. Teams change. We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive. If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too. I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended) I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season. Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass. Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55). And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends. Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%. In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game. If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L. And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion. Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted. okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many Probably many of them. But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count. So what's the point? I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that. The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league. okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them... 1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are. 2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things. Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense. okay, speaking of going off topic. Were going on about tight ends, hence everything I have said. I promise you that the saints don't throw under 5 yards to their tight ends and hope he gets enough YAC to get a first down. That may have worked with Cooks and Snead but I guarantee not for the tight end. I concur that their D/ST is trash, but you said that they succeed by dumping and getting a lot of YAC. Well over 50% of Drew Brees passing yards were yards in air rather than YAC. In fact, only 4 QBs had a higher % of YAC vs Yards in air. Stafford, Smith, Bradford and Eli. And actually, Flacco had few yards in air per attempt than Brees, meaning Brees has more success throwing the ball down field. He has almost 2800 yards in the air as opposed to 2300 YAC. To me, it seems the saints have more success throwing the ball downfield more. Dumping only works when you have quick receivers. Expect that number to drop without cooks 1. No, because the Saints use TEs the same way as we do... in the middle of the field as a last option. That's the whole point. I don't consider the Saints TEs chain movers, just like I don't consider our TEs chain movers either. Based on what I saw last season, they're catching passes and not getting much yardage compared to what others in the league do. That's the point. That's part of the reason a healthy player is asked to take a paycut. 2. I wasn't comparing Brees to Flacco for one season, because everybody knows last seasons Ravens team took very few shots down the field. That's not even the type of offense we want to run, and its certainly not indicative of the types of offenses we've run in the past.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense. I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away? There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing. We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league. Times change. Teams change. We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive. If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too. I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended) Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker. 37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field. 1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long. If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt? 2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know. Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season. And then he was asked to take a significant paycut. I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to. he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too Pitta did take a pay cut. article link? Mustve missed that one I posted it in my response below.

Think its pretty clear who is leading their respective groups. Suggs leads the Dline/LBs, Weddle leads the secondary. Steve Smith was leading the receivers, and Yanda leads the Oline. I thought this was common knowledge. If your interpretation of "leadership" is a guy who delivers sermons in the locker room or is constantly in the public eye preaching like Ray Lewis was, then I think the lack of leadership falls on your end, not the Ravens end. If I asked you to tell me who the leader of the groups of players on the New England Patriots are, you couldn't do that either. So apparently they don't have leadership from player commanders (outside of Brady) either, yet they seem to keep winning. No. Sermons in locker rooms are a product of his personality not a leadership trait. Why New England wins is easy. Go to their website. Pull up their roster and sort on years.The first 15 players have played the last 5 years or more together in New England. That develops nucleus. Then take a look a 2017 Ravens. In 2012 there were 12 players drafted by Ravens who started and have played mim 3 or more years together.. I don't follow the Pats that closely but I would lay money on Rob Ninkovich, Devin McCourty and Pat Chung as leaders. Why are your responses so angry? I can't understand why people responses make you so miserable and combative. I lied I do know why. Yes, and that's because those players are actually good. When we get a core group of good players, we will fall into that category as well. But that's a product of poor drafts. Keeping around below average players just to build "a nucleus" won't yield W's on the football field.

Depends on what the caught pass yields us...

Because he really doesn't add much skill set to the offense.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense. I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away? There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing. We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league. Times change. Teams change. We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive. If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too. I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended) Moves the chains? He set a new NFL record for the most "failed receptions"... remember that stat? It roughly meant a reception that didn't get close to the 1st down marker. 37 first downs and a first down rate of 43%. 37 first downs by anyone is pretty good. Also remember the passes he caught were more likely than not in a 3rd and long situation with the ball being thrown 5 yards down field. 1. And that's the reason he's catching those passes... because the defense is allowing him to. He's not a threat for YAC, and so they will let him sit down 2-3 years short of the line of gain and catch passes all day long. If anything, that pads his stats, not helps them. It inflates his reception total while yielding very little value to the offense on that play. I guess you could argue it makes for a shorter punt? 2. I look at it this way... the FO tells you everything you need to know. Career year for Pitta in receptions and yardage, and he played the whole season. And then he was asked to take a significant paycut. I'd like to know how many players you think this happens to. he averaged almost 4 YAC so youre telling me they just let him sit 2-3 yards under the line to gain? I doubt that. And he was asked to take a pay cut due to injuries, The Ravens do that to most players who suffer 1, let alone 2,career threatening injuries. And they haven't asked him to take a pay cut this year. Weve read articles talking about it, but no actual offer yet... Hes one hit away from his hit popping again, so Id have him take a pay cut too 1. Yes, because a 4 YAC includes ALL PASS PLAYS, not just 3rd down conversions. That includes receptions he's making on 1st or 2nd down where there isn't 10 bodies within 5-10 yards of the LOS. Not really hard to understand. Defenses play differently on third down than they do on 1st down. 2. Injuries played a small factor in them asking for a paycut, but that also doesn't make any sense, given he just played a full season. Again, how many players do you know coming off a fully health, career season, were asked to take a paycut? 3. Yes, he's already taken the paycut for this year, just like he did last year. Its documented already. http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2017/3/22/15020838/details-on-the-dennis-pitta-contract-restructure-released-tight-end-ben-watson Was originally due a $5.5M salary for this season and for 2018, and will now make $3M this season, and $3M next season. He took a $2.5M paycut in 2017 and in 2018.

No, I don't think upset over Receivers, the top 3 were gone by the time the Ravens picked. Also, 3 Quarterbacks were taken and OJ Howard fell to us. A great TE (Sharpe, Heap) and Running Game is also what the Ravens were known for besides a Great Defense. I mean that's great, but you also have a bunch of young TEs on the roster already, so do we just throw them away? There's what we WERE known for, and there's what we are NOW known for. They don't have to be the same thing. We didn't used to be a team that invested heavily in the QB position. Now we are, and so are all the consistent good teams in this league. Times change. Teams change. We have a bunch of Tight Ends that were on Injured Reserve last year, Ben Watson 37 in December, Williams and Gilmore. One who is more of a blocking tight end who has been suspended 2 times and one more will be out of the league. Pitta who is one of my favorites but he gets no YAC. Tight End is still very important in the NFL and its not one of the Ravens Strengths as so many people beleive. If Pitta stays healthy, he is good. He might not get the YAC but he makes contested catches and moves the chains. I like Boyle, he has a chance to be great if he stays out of trouble. I think Williams will end up being a bust and Watson is definitely questionable after an achillies injury, but we shall see. But the one nobody is talking about is Darren Waller. Im pretty high on him. Hes big, hes got decent speed and he can catch. Also if Gillmore stays healthy, he is good too. I think a combination of Pitta, Gillmore, Waller and Boyle is a good group. Pitta and Waller will be consistent. Gillmore may get hurt and if that trend continues, we may have to cut ties. But I don't see a problem with Pitta, Waller and Boyle (proided he doesn't get suspended) I will caution you... last year Pitta wasn't moving the chains at all. Not only was he not getting YAC, he also wasn't moving the chains. He had one of the lower percentages of receptions for first downs among the primary pass catchers last season. Pitta had 86 catches last year and 37 first downs which is 43%. Steve Smith Last year had 70 catches for 39 first downs which is 55% roughly. There isn't much difference between the numbers. Compared to other starting TE's, Charles Clay was 38%, Ryan griffin was 38%, Will Tye 33%, Larry Donnel 20%, Jason Witten 47%, Julious Thomas 50%, Vernon Davis 50%, Jermaine Gresham 51%, Delanie Walker and Zach Ertz 53%. All of these Tight ends did slightly better or worse than Pitta. And in perspective to receivers, Larry Fitzgerald 55%, Edelman 56%, Golden Tate 50%, Jamison Crowder 50%, Tavon Austin 40%. All of these receivers caught at least 50 passes and their percentages aren't much better than Pitta. plus if you watched the games last year, very rarely were the passes to Pitta on target. Many times he had to reach up over his head or make a shoestring catch which hinders your ability tomove after catching the pass. Pitta did have 37 first downs, which IMO is pretty good for a tight end. There were only 6 tight ends that had more first downs: Greg Olson (54), Jimmy Graham (45), Zach Ertz (42), Kyle Rudolph (50), Jordan Reed (41) and Travis Kelce (55). And you may notice that there really wasn't mch of a receiving threat other than these tight ends for their respective team, except for Jimmy Graham (Doug Baldwin), Travis Kelce (Jeremy Maclin) and Jordan Reed (Jackson and Garcon). The others were the primary receivers for their teams, especially Rudolph with Bradford just dumping it to running backs and tight ends. Actually, there's a HUGE difference between those numbers. Look at this way... the average between Perriman, Wallace, Steve and Aiken, in terms of first downs/catch, was roughly 59%. In order for Pitta to get to a number like that, he would have needed about 14 more first downs. That's close to a first down a game. If you don't think a first down a game is a big deal, then you didn't watch a lot of our games last year or frankly any NFL game. I can point to several games where a single first down was the difference between a W and an L. And those numbers are even worse if you look at it from a per-target perspective. He's down around 30% conversion. Again, you can take numbers out of context all day long and make them say whatever you want. 37 first downs sounds like a lot... if you don't take into account how many catches they actually have or how many times they are targeted. okay so since you watched a lot of games, how many of those targets and catches were on balls thrown 5 yards downfield on a 3-10 or longer?? You cant expect someone to catch the ball and run 10 yards before being gang tackled. I also wouldn't bring in the target factor. You had to have seen Flacco overthrow him or throw it at his feet when hes rushed multiple times. The only it counts as a target is because Flacco had to throw it in the vicinity of someone to avoid intentional grounding. A better stat would be how many times Pitta was targeted on a pass further downfield than the first down marker or how many times he caught a pass within 4-5 yards of the first down marker. I guarantee there isn't many Probably many of them. But that's partially because of the player he's throwing it to. Do you think Pitta's catch percentage would be higher if he were targeted more down the field? Because I don't see a skill set he brings that would make that likely. I think if he were targeted more down the field, you'd see a decreased reception count and a decreased first down reception count. So what's the point? I don't expect receivers to run 10 yards while breaking tackles, but I do expect them to get 2-3 YAC if needed, and he wasn't very good at that. The Patriots entire offense is built upon throwing the ball short of the line of gain and letting their receivers get YAC. Saints offense is designed this way also, and you'll find similar traits to every quality passing game in this league. okay, so instead of using your hypothetical situations, try using numbers. Pitta had 729 yards on 86 catches which is 8.5 yards per catch. He also average 3.7 YAC, which you said he should be getting 2-3. This also means that n average, he was catching a ball 4.8 yards down field. So I reiterate, on third and long, or second and long, they target him short (less than 5 yrds) and expect him to break off for the first down. I feel that if you average a yar under 10 yards per reception, you should have a lot of first downs. And everyone likes to make comparisons to NE. Sorry to break it to you, nobody is like NE. You can bring up NO but they've been less successful than Bmore the last half decade so why would we want that? You wont find another team that has success like NE has had with the types of players they have. Just as a comparison, Minnesota liked the short plays too, look where that got them... 1. I'll be happy to dig into those numbers further when I get a chance. My suspicion is that you'll find those numbers aren't what you think they are. 2. Whether or not the Saints as a TEAM have been more successful or not has nothing to do with conversation. Now you're lumping in other things like how bad their defense/ST is into a conversation about how effective their offense is, which are two completely separate things. Offensively, the Saints are miles ahead of the Ravens and have been for some time. That's what's relevant here. It doesn't matter whether as a team they're more successful, because there's other factors that go into W/L record other than just your offense (obviously). Fairly simple... Ravens would love to have the Saints productivity on offense, and the Saints would love to have the Ravens productivity on defense.