Grapple Raven

Pats, with all due respect to you, that is the problem with the Patriots fan's logic throughout this whole ordeal, this isn't a court of American law. The NFL is a private corporation, and as such is not required to be held to the same criminal standard as one would be in an American criminal court of law, that you alluded to above in your comment. "The NFL will apply a low standard of proof to the Deflategate investigation, which means that the NFL doesn’t necessarily need an air-tight case to conclude that the Patriots broke the rules." When applied to American Law, the NFL Rulebook standard compares to that of a civil case which is "preponderance of evidence" meaning that it is a lower standard of proof as defined as "more likely than not" that something occurred, as compared to a criminal case which holds to a much higher standard of proof by "beyond a reasonable doubt" which connotes that evidence establishes a particular point (to a moral certainty) that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. This is from the actual NFL Rulebook as explained by PFT as to the difference in the standard of proof that would be applied by the NFL in its investigation cases: :http://profootballta...to-deflategate/ that the NFLPA agreed to when Goodell changed the CBA. This is what a lot of folks are missing when discussing this case, this case isn't being tried in an American court of law, therefore the criminal case standard of proof of "beyond a reasonable doubt" DOES NOT apply to deflategate. But rather since the NFL is a private corporation with its own rules for operation, it goes by the civil case standard of "preponderance of evidence" which equals to a lower standard of proof which means it is more likely than not that something occurred based on the evidence discovered. Also this issue of "circumstantial evidence" is misunderstood as well. Circumstantial evidence IS evidence which may allow someone to deduce or come to a certain conclusion, from other facts which have been proven. Direct evidence, by contrast is evidence that supports the truth without any need for inference or additional evidence. By the NFL's standards of operation under its bylaws, direct evidence is not required in this situation since its standard is "preponderance of evidence" as it relates to a civil matter rather than a criminal matter. The circumstantial evidence contained within the Well's Report is very damning for Brady when combined with his own testimony from his interview where his assertions contradict the evidence provided. For one example to save time here, when Brady claims that he didn't know anyone named McNally/Jastremski but yet there are text and phone messages to the contrary. Combine that with Brady's refusal to cooperate by not turning over his phone when safeguards were provided that would protect his privacy on matters unrelated to this incident, Brady's denial that he wasn't aware of the rules referencing the proper PSI's of footballs when there is evidence to support he was involved in the 2006 ruling, and that he told his equipment guys that he liked his footballs at 12.5 and complained about the pressure in the footballs in the Jets game which proves he can tell about the amount of pressure in the football which he earlier denied being able to do , etc. When these instances and other from the Well's Report are viewed collectively they lead to a reasonable conclusion that a violation of the competitive rules occurred and "more often than not" Brady was aware.

Belicheck is still salty about that Tucker kick here at M&T I see, lol.

This time I think it all depends on how much support Goodell gets from the other 31 league owners. If, as reported during deflategate, the other owners, gm's, coaches, etc. were fed up with the cheating and the rules skirting of the Patriots over the last several years the punishment wouldn't be lessened or eradicated. The fact that at the last owner's meetings the Patriots were slapped on the wrists with the rule change to the eligible/ineligible incident, it would appear that Goodell has the support of other 31 owners. We will just have to see.

Robert Kraft is now trying his "politicking" (pun intended) by going to Peter King and his MMQB column having this go out the day before the Owners' Meetings in SF start tomorrow. If Kraft is trying to garner sympathy, it is falling on deaf ears here...how ridiculous! Kraft sounds like a petulant 5 yr. old jumping up and down shouting "it isn't fair, it just isn't fair". It is clear that this is an attempt to sway the other owners by Kraft, imho, by his comment: “I just get really worked up. To receive the harshest penalty in league history is just not fair. The anger and frustration with this process, to me, it wasn’t fair. If we’re giving all the power to the NFL and the office of the commissioner, this is something that can happen to all 32 teams. We need to have fair and balanced investigating and reporting. But in this report, every inference went against us … inferences from ambiguous, circumstantial evidence all went against us. That’s the thing that really bothers me. “If they want to penalize us because there’s an aroma around this? That’s what this feels like. If you don’t have the so-called smoking gun, it really is frustrating. And they don’t have it. This thing never should have risen to this level.” Here is a link to King's MMQB article to read for yourself if you dare: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/18/robert-kraft-patriots-owner-nfl-deflategate/5/ My take aways from this: Kraft is thinking he is swaying the other owners with the underline comment from the above quote... the read between the lines interpretation...if they can do this to me they will do this to you, so beware. Aroma??? Really Kraft??? This is laughable. Perhaps someone should explain the concept of "circumstantial evidence" to Robert Kraft. It is REAL evidence! Or would Kraft take Hernandez back if he wins an appeal because his case was based on circumstantial evidence. LMAO. Kraft is still ticked off because his team wasn't told before hand about the deflation of footballs, and that is why his butt is so chapped because he sees this as Goodell turning on him, lol. Biggest take away...if the NE Patriots were not guilty of anything relating to deflategate then why suspend McNally and Jastremski? A question Kraft refused to answer due to in his words "a variety of reasons". Bottom line...just more hot air from the Patriots!

If that Patriots Rebuttal is the same one I read, Kraft needs to check and see if the attorneys he hired passed the bar, lol.

First they deflated, and now they are deflecting! I swear you can't make this stuff up! lol

ravensdfan, I think if I'm not mistaken, I read today that once Brady's appeal has been filed, the NFL has to deal with the case within 10 days. I am hearing that it will probably be around the first of June, as the NFL has another high profile case to dispense with by May 28th, so Brady's will be after that one. Right now there are no other cases pending in relation to delfategate other than Brady's appeal of his suspension. Kraft and the organization can appeal the League in relation to the penalties levied, or sue the League, and they have until May 21st to make that decision.

Thought this was interesting, this is the third of these types of articles that I have seen since chatter of a Brady appeal occurred a couple of days ago. Could it be that now other players will start coming forward with experiences like this to combat the "Patriot propaganda cartel? One or several probably wouldn't make a difference, but a whole gaggle would probably change the public's perception to null the Patriot propaganda machine. I know there are probably a plethora of stories out there just like this one. http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/browns%e2%80%99-karlos-dansby-thinks-pats-tampered-with-headsets-in-2008/ar-BBjNAC1?ocid=U142DHP I think this story is particularly interesting in that this incident took place in an important game that had playoff ramifications too. Addendum: This is one from the other day I saw too: http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/former-dolphins-quarterback-says-brady-was-using-doctored-footballs-in-2004/ar-BBjJv67?ocid=U142DHP

It is a very interesting read. I stumbled upon that years ago when I was researching Spygate, in which multiple reports linked Adams to Spygate, as he is the one that was alleged as being the one that interpreted the stolen defensive signals and in turn related them directly to Brady's helmet. A backup QB for the Patriots later reveled that he went to the sideline to retrieve his helmet and accidently picked up Brady's instead and heard a voice instructing Brady about what the defensive scheme was going to be on the next play. The backup QB knew this was wrong as it violated the League rules as to when the radio communications were to be cut off by NFL guidelines before a play. But off course this little piece of information didn't come out until after Spygate~ so who knows what will come out about deflategate years from now, lol.

Nah, they don't need a team of lawyers for that, that is what Ernie Adams is there for. He is often referred to as Belicheck's brain. Great read btw : http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=adams Excerpt: "On game day, Adams wears a headset in the press box, a direct line to Belichick. Adams advises Belichick on which plays to challenge, and charts trends. "The one thing the Patriots do better than anyone else is they adjust and make halftime adjustments," Sturges says. "Ernie Adams is the guy who does that." Are there other game-day duties? While it is commonly accepted that most teams try to steal signals, and New England was actually caught in the well-publicized Spygate incident, one former Patriots insider said a videotape of signals wouldn't help the other 31 teams nearly as much because they wouldn't have Ernie Adams there to quickly analyze and process the information. And, if any of this happens to be true, Adams' love of military history suggests he might see deciphering signals as just part of winning a battle. Friends say he is wildly competitive. "Behind the exterior of a guy who lived with his mother," Bissinger says, "he is a guy who is really savage about winning games.""

This is the interesting paradox in all of this to me...I totally get that the NFL is a "brotherhood" as they say, but it is so disingenuous to say "I respect Brady" as a lot of people have said. To follow that logic that means that you also respect a liar and a cheater? It is such a duplicitous and insincere statement. It has to be hard for a lot of players, coaches and more so the media because they have placed him on such a high pedestal, that to have to admit he is flawed is like holding up a mirror seeing your own reflection. Anyone is complicit in an act if they are aware of its occurrence and have the ability to report that act, but don't. Nobody wants to think they have been involved in complicity. When many players, coaches and media members know that these incidents have occurred before with the Patriots, Brady, Belicheck and Kraft and have said nothing its like an indictment on themselves. Rather than take the issue head on for what it is, they choose to take the path of least resistance and defend him. The fact that he is considered by many to be "one of the best" only magnifies the problem. To not defend him is considered going against the brotherhood. This imho is what has allowed this "culture of cheating" to exist for as long as it has. You can't change what you don't acknowledge. For this to change someone has to be willing to stand up to the status quo. I fully believe that there are a lot of good guys in the NFL, all it takes is just one, and the others will follow. Some have tried, but aren't being taken seriously, sadly. Will anyone step up and fill that void? I don't know, but I am hoping. That is just my take on it.

Lol, those reasons I could dispute with the documentation in the Well's report, and I am not an attorney. They are just cherry picking in that article, Well's and his firm wouldn't put a case together that doesn't hold water, as it relates to the bylaws of the NFL. For instance from the above article it states that the language is misleading referencing the number of times McNally was interviewed. It is misleading, but the Patriots were the ones doing the misleading...McNally spoke THREE times to NFL security officials, before Goodell even commissioned Ted Wells and his firm to do an independent investigation. Once the independent investigation was begun on Jan. 28th, Wells and his team interviewed McNally ONCE, (making the fourth time), upon the information gleaned in that interview with McNally and others, the Wells investigators wanted to do a follow-up interview with McNally and were denied by the Patriots (which would have been the fifth). What Kraft neglected to mention is that it was NFL security who interviewed McNally for the first three times, not the investigators from the Wells firm, which hadn't even been commissioned yet, lol. Gotta love that "Patriot Way" spin! At this point, I'm not worried, Yee is just throwing stuff up to see what sticks. If there is a chance that the penalties are reduced it will come from evidence that has yet to be uncovered...and that is highly unlikely after a four month investigation. To be honest, this information was probably known before the Patriots played the Super Bowl and they should consider themselves very lucky they even got to play that game.

Your sig encompasses the "Patriot Way" so well! I love it, lol.

From Troy Vincent’s letter to Tom Brady: “With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots’ employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence. “Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game is of paramount importance to everyone in our league, and requires unshakable commitment to fairness and compliance with the playing rules. Each player, no matter how accomplished and otherwise respected, has an obligation to comply with the rules and must be held accountable for his actions when those rules are violated and the public’s confidence in the game is called into question.” The underlined phrase from Vincent's letter to Brady can be backed up on multiple instances from the Well's Report, non more damning to Raven's fans than this: "On January 7, 2015, eleven days before the AFC Championship Game, McNally and Jastremski discussed how McNally would have a “big autograph day” and receive items autographed by Brady the following weekend, before the playoff game against the Baltimore Ravens. McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following text messages: McNally: Remember to put a couple sweet pig skins ready for tom to sign Jastremski: U got it kid...big autograph day for you McNally: Nice throw some kicks in and make it real special Jastremski: It ur lucky. 11? McNally: 11 or 11 and half kid On January 10, 2015, immediately prior to the game between the Patriots and the Ravens, in the Patriots equipment room with both Brady and Jastremski present, McNally received two footballs autographed by Brady and also had Brady autograph a game-worn Patriots jersey that McNally previously had obtained." ~Page 6 of the Well's Report

Well stated RavensBaltimore!

Who knows, but I personally feel it goes back more than just the 2014 - 2015 season. I actually think that this "deflating" issue can be tied into their fumble record, and from all the research done on the fumbling inquiry, that would be a substantive amount of time. But that is just my personal opinion based off the research and reading that I've done.

I've seen all of Charley Casserly's comments and he has by far been the most reasonable and unbiased in his opinions imho that I've seen so far.

Welcome home JJ!!!

Bio, here is a good link that does a great job explaining the difference btw "released", "waived" and "cut". Hope it helps. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8085ee3e/article/even-in-the-offseason-nfl-education-never-ends

Supernaw, bless his heart, he has become last and this year's Billy Bajama. Best of luck to both guys and hope they land an NFL job with a good organization.

One of the things that I find most disturbing out of this whole situation is the assertion in the Well's Report that I think a lot of people have overlooked: "...before the start of the 2014-15 season, McNally referred to himself as “the deflator” ..." Page 6 of the Well's Report I think one could ask within reason how long has this been going on? I find this point very disturbing.

I wouldn't count Cam Worthy out!

Being that he lied to his head coach, his teammates and the public, and made his owner out to be a fool on national TV you'd think it would be forthcoming. However, the "Patriot Way" of total silence is so engrained in everybody within that organization I'd speculate that it probably will not happen.

Interesting quiz on deflategate! Had to take it, lol. The quiz has some great information in it that I had not heard from the Well's Report. If you are interested, take it yourself: http://apps.bostonglobe.com/graphics/2015/05/deflategate/ I got 7 our of 7 correct!

The one thing in this whole ordeal that I find totally absurd is at no point has Brady offered an explanation. I think it is reasonable to assert that most people if faced with the issue of their integrity being questioned, if they were truly innocent, would be using every opportunity to clear their name if faced with a situation that impugns their reputation and assails their character. Especially someone with such a high public profile as he carries and with what is at stake with his legacy. Personally, I would be screaming from the rafters to anyone who would listen to declare my innocence. It isn't like Brady would not be afforded the outlets to do so, but instead he chooses to have his daddy and his agent speak for him. (which btw have done his personal image no favors) When he did have the opportunity at the summit late last week he refused to comment. Barring any upcoming legal issues with the league, he still could release a statement through the organization or legal counsel, or conduct a personal interview with a lawyer present. Maybe it is just me, but I just find that a little odd.