PerpetuallyBored74

On 8/12/2016 at 4:32 PM, usmccharles said:

I see a 7-9 to a 10-6 season.  Games can easily go one way or another as we know from last  year

This.

We've improved our depth and our recent draft picks and FA signings look very promising but we can't seem to stay/get healthy.

And we still have Pees, so we still can't disguise a blitz to fool anyone. If we were closer to full strength though, we'd be a legit contender. We have talent, it's just that much of it is constantly in the trainer's room and not on the field.

2 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Another year of with ton of 'contributors' but no one with any potential to be the new probowler on our team.

 

We need new elite playmakers to this team.  Someone step up!  Blue chip players, with few flash is fine.  But we need another new guy that will pop out of the screen and surprise us.  

 

Haven't seen any for first season.

Za'darius Smith and Matt Judon on defense.

Ronnie Stanley and West/Dixon on offense.

They looked like potential Pro Bowlers to me--if not this season, then maybe in the future. Granted it's just one preseason game, but they played very well.

And Mosely looks like he may have a strong bounceback season with the improved Orr alongside him. 

Don't forget that a lot of our best players did not even play--Yanda, Suggs, BWill, Jimmy, Dumervil, SSS, Pitta, Wallace, Gillmore, Aiken, Jernigan, Watson, Forsett and of course, Joe.

There's a couple of potential Pro Bowlers in that group.

Granted, age and injury may prevent some of them from playing at that level (or even at all.) but they do have that type of talent when healthy.

The main thing is that our depth is noticeably better from last year's. And with the coaches coming up with a customized offense, and emphasizing getting pressure on the QB and forcing turnovers on defense, we might have a shot at the playoffs this year after all. Still enough question marks (mainly due to injuries) that we're more likely to be around .500 but we're definitely trending upward.

He'll be better than Hurst.

So instant upgrade.

If we lose too many O-linemen, we'd use B-Will for the interior and Urban at tackle.

Lose too many D-lineman, then it's Jensen and Lewis because of their physicality.

If we lose all of our RBs and FBs, we'll just pass on almost every play, with Reynolds at RB. If he's hurt too, then it's either Kamar or SSS in the backfield with Joe because of their blocking.

Lose all our WRs (again) and it's 4 TE sets plus Dixon or 3 TEs with Juice and Dixon. If we only have 2 TEs then it's probably Young in at WR because of his hands and ball skills. 

Lose all of our TEs, then it's Juice the rest of the game. Lose him too, it's whichever backup linebacker they think can block, so maybe Correa or A. Brown,  or Ochi if he's on the active roster.

5 hours ago, The Raven said:

Loved the Watson signing when it happened, but now, I worry it will create a log jam and hinder the development of our younger tight ends. I wanted Maxx Williams and Crocket Gillmore to be the tight ends of the future. They compliment each other quite well. 

How all of these guys will see the field, I don't know. Someone will lose snaps, and I worry it will be the person who will be on this team in 2017 and 2018. 

I like vets. I like Watson. But when the young guys can get the job done - and they can - I say let the young guys do the job.

Pitta is 31, coming off of 2 season ending hip dislocations and fractures while Watson is 35, turning 36 towards the end of the season.

Neither one is "hindering" either Gillmore (24, turning 25 in Nov.) or Williams (who just turned 22 in April) for more than one season, if even that. And if anybody gets hurt or old all of a sudden, there goes the logjam. I'm glad Watson is on the team. Having two strong blockers who are also decent pass catchers in Watson and Gillmore will be beneficial to both the run and pass in 2 TE sets.

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You know... I don't touch any kind of substance, I don't even drink beer, but if I had the platform for it I would absolutely advocate for medical marijuana to be more widely accepted, because it's common sense at this point that weed is safer and more beneficial than most medicines on the market. 

 

Just because he advocates medical usage doesn't mean he wants to retire to smoke weed. And you really don't have to be so condescending about a VERY positive approach to modernizing the NFL for the benefit of the players. He is doing a very good thing for NFL players by pressing for this. I applaud it, and anyone with an ounce of common sense should as well.

At this point the government is just being pig headed about dropping its absolute prohibition of marijuana.

I'm straight edge like you, but since I deal with chronic pain caused by a legal medication, I'd love to see more research into marijuana based pain relievers. I don't even care about the "high", just want something relatively harmless but effective at easing my pain, since NSAID's don't do anything for tendon or nerve pain. And I won't touch any opiate based meds because I've seen firsthand what they do to people.

While it was frustrating having Monroe miss so many games, I never blamed him for being hurt constantly. It's an unfortunate part of the game. And I applaud his efforts now to try and force our stubborn powers that be, who often have their own self serving reasons for resisting policy changes, to reconsider their stances. Because there's certainly no harm in doing more research.

Here's one of my favorites.

Love where Ray tells the crowd "Shhhh..."

Going back even further...

Among our first round draft picks, Travis Taylor, while not a complete bust still failed to live up to his #10 overall status.

Patrick Johnson, a 2nd round WR, was even less productive.

Jay Graham in the 3rd round was probably our biggest bust at RB.

And finally 3rd rounder Chris Redman got hyped as our future starting QB.

If he'd panned out, even as just an average starter, we probably wouldn't have drafted Boller.

Even Cowboys' owner 'Jerruh' doesn't want him anymore.

(probably)

Campanaro is just a wasted roster spot. I'd rather have another player at any other position as long as that player is decent enough, even as a backup/ST, and doesn't have an injury history like Camp's. Only reason to keep him is if there is an open spot which I doubt there will be. At least I hope we've improved our depth that there won't be an open spot. Shame, because I actually like Camp, a lot. Wish he could stay healthy.

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

2013: no arguing with elam and art brown, but after the 3rd round its a crap shoot, you cant call a 4th-7th rounder a bust because the expectations were never that high to begin with for most of them. 

2012: upshaw was a very solid player for us who did a lot more than the casual fan notices. i wouldve hated to see our defense try to transition away from JJ without him. tyson has been gone.

2011: jimmy smith had a clean bill of health coming out and had nagging injuries as a rookie and 1 major injury since then which came in 2014, he has been a bonafide stud for us and was arguably and quietly the best cb in the league from the playoffs in 2013 all the way up until his injury in 2014, and he did it against a RIDICULOUS lineup of wrs. we got a damn good rookie year and a GREAT year 4 from a 5th rounder in mcphee, youre once again expecting wayyyy too much from a late round pick like chykie brown, he was solid depth and failed as a starter, it is a very regular occurence.

2010: no argument here 

2009: kruger was raw, and we had hoped we could find a spot in our system for him, he was purely a 43 guy and we needed to convert him, and he did eventually, and when he did he became instrumental in our super bowl, forcing fumbles and getting key sacks, and youre complaining about the pick because the browns threw him way too much money? 

2008: gooden did nothing, true, but zibby and nakamura were some of the best secondary depth/ST ace's in the entire league and were late picks, once again we nailed late picks value-wise and they contributed for years, yet people complain because we arent finding 4th round pro bowlers, smh. 

2007: barnes was a beast as a situational edge rusher, what are you talking about? 

2006: are you seriously gonna nitpick this draft because of david pittman? 

2005: no arguments. 

2004: no arguments, although i think dwan edwards is a very underrated former raven, he was always around the ball and quietly and consistently produced. 

 

its not that we have been drafting poorly on defense for over a decade, its that fans seem to have ridiculously unrealistic expectations. 4th and 5th round db's playing their entire rookie contracts as KEY nickel and dime players, but youre unstatisfied because they werent world beaters? how can you have a single complain about mcphee as a 5th round pick besides the fact that we couldnt retain him? this isnt poor drafting, this is pretty damn solid drafting overall with 2010 and 2013's blown high picks still haunting us.

2013: I never said KLM and Anthony were busts, I said they were "late round flyers who did not pan out"

2012: If Upshaw was solid, they would've re-signed him as he was cheap to keep. He was decent at setting the edge, not great at it. And was below average at everything else: pass rushing, tackles for losses, coverage, etc. He is JAG, an OK starter, but nothing really special. Basically replacement level.

2011: So...you agree with me on Jimmy and Pernell? Since you pretty much elaborated on what I said about them. My point with Pernell being that after showing such promise as a rookie, he was underused until his 4th and final year here. You can't expect to build a decent defense when you only get one good and one great year from one of the scant few good healthy players you draft on defense before that good player leaves. And I didn't say I expected Chykie to ever be anything other than a nickel or dime CB, at best. What I said was he was a "project they invested too much time in" meaning that once it became clear he'd reached his ceiling after showing no improvement after 2 seasons, it was time to move on and try to develop someone else. Instead, they kept him for another two years.

2009: So how come when he shed the weight and switched back to OLB, Kruger became productive? You wouldn't want that productivity for 3 or 4 years, you're willing to settle for one year because it happened to be the year we won the SB? And what if Kruger had been just as productive in 2011 or 2010, maybe...we would've won another SB or two? And where did I say anything about overpaying him like the Browns did.

2008: I acknowledged that Zibby and Haruki were excellent backup and ST guys. And yes, it would be nice if we did nab a Pro Bowler in the 4h or 5th round every once in awhile. That's not an unrealistic expectation. In fact, the better teams in the NFL do just that (and we actually have with guys like Arthur Jones and McPhee, so I don't even know why you're raising this point.)

2007: Yeah, he was. For San Diego who we traded Barnes to for a 7th round pick. He was only a Raven for 3 years where we got 5 sacks from him. With San Diego, he had 11 sacks in just one year. You really want to argue that we got the better end of that deal?

2006: So, we're just going to ignore what I said about Ngata, Landry and Martin. Likewise, we're going to dismiss what I said later about the 2006 draft being one of our defensive cornerstone drafts.

My overall point is that many of these have been good players, even a few great ones, but either they kept (or keep) getting hurt or we misuse or underuse them until they've got one foot out the door. And that's why when Ray, Ed & Haloti were gone and Suggs started showing his age, our defense fell back into mediocrity. Hopefully, though these last 2 drafts will begin to turn that back around.

17 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the second point but I can't help but say this. I feel as if we don't have a true leader on defense. I don't care if he's vocal. Suggs isn't much of a leader. He's a great player and a good veteran, but leader he is not.

 

CJ is many things... I don't know if he's a leader though. Look at Patrick Willis, very quiet as a player but he lead on the field. Ray may have been vocal but that's not why I think of him as a great leader/motivator. 

Weddle is the new leader, at least until Mosely and/or someone else grows into the role.

That's what happens when you draft as poorly as we have on defense for nearly a decade, up until 2014 (who's draft class looks promising Same with 2015).

2013 - Elam, A. Brown & J. Simon all busts. KLM and M. Anthony were late round flyers who didn't pan out either. Only B. Williams has been a bona fide hit.

2012 - Upshaw was JAG and is now gone. C. Thompson and Asa Jackson, both had off-field issues that hampered their development. Only D. Tyson, a backup DE, is still on the team.

2011 - J. Smith is a stud who can't stay healthy. McPhee wasn't used much until towards the end of his time here ala Kruger, now he's gone. Chykie like Asa was a project they invested too much time in, that was time wasted.

2010 - Kindle and T. Cody, ugghhh... the less said, the better. Only A. Jones developed into a decent player, but he's gone too.

2009 - Wasted Kruger on a foolish attempt to have him bulk up and play DE instead of OLB. When he slimmed down and went back to OLB, he was very good--but only for his last season before leaving as a FA. Webb was a top 3 CB briefly before injuries derailed him. Now he's trying to salvage his career switching to FS. J. Phillips, does anyone even remember him?

2008 - T. Gooden never panned out. Zbikowski and Nakamura were solid backup DBs and ST aces, but nothing more.

2007 - Barnes & Burgess did very little here as backups.

2006 - Ngata was at one time the best DT in the league and top 2 or 3 for many years. D. Landry was a thumper at SS who complemented Ed Reed's ballhawkery. But Pittman did nothing.(literally) while D. Martin carved out a nice career as a ST'er and backup CB.

2005 - The other Cody, the one who could never be healthy plus Mike Smith. Yeah...

2004 - D. Edwards, much like Kruger and McPhee wasn't used much until his final year or 2, then cashed in as a FA elsewhere. We also drafted R. Green for some reason.

2003 - Suggs and JJ. We also drafted A. Franklin who did more once he left as a FA. G. Sapp was an OK backup DB and STer. In the 7th we drafted a guy who never even made it out of camp. Still, who cares when you get Suggs and JJ (best edge setter in the league) in one draft.

2002 - Ed Reed. Also Weaver was a solid starter at DE and C. Williams was a decent backup and STer. Brightful was drafted to return kicks, not play defense.

The 2002, 2003 and 2006 drafts where when we drafted the cornerstones of our defense to join with Ray as part of that nucleus.

After that though, it's been guys who were great but were misused/underused or who couldn't stay healthy. Along with a lot of busts, with more recently many of those busts coming in the first 2 rounds.

So for the most part, we've been drafting defense like we draft WR.

Buck shouldn't have been benched. That fumble could've happened to any RB.

He better play next week. Now's not the time (or season) to deny our best young players any opportunity to play and gain valuable real game experience.

I like how you used Jacoby as an example lol. I could name a whole lot of WR's still playing at a high level who are way north of 30 (like someone on our team). And Pierre Garçon was really the only viable playmaker available for Washington in 2013 and all he did was catch 113 passes for 1,346 yards and 5 TD's. And before you bring up the age or experience excuse, Boldin had a similar stat line his rookie year but Kamar can't top 100 yards in a single game this season lol.

You forgot that this season still wasn't over, lol.

Gold does not go with purple.

At all.

Daniel Brown had a bad game.

Not only did he drop a long pass, but he also fell down on the pick six, causing that interception.

Harbaugh also lost his mind with the fake punt and benching Buck because of one fumble.

I just dont see anything special that transcends him, like its been stated: theres a reason why he was undrafted and theres a readson why hes bounced around the league for 5 years or whatever its been.  I would be curious to know of any WR that took 5 years to become a legit playmaker.  The reason why im more ok with Garcon than Aiken as a number 2 is because we have seen Garcon put up good numbers, hes done things, hes been reliable.  I feel like Garcon in our system with Joe, would be great. 

 

This is also assuming BP can be a number 1 which we still dont know

Garcon is either at his ceiling or on the downswing, while Aiken is on the upswing.

Aiken this season has had the following numbers in 7 of the 13 games we've played:

Catches - Yards

5 - 89

5 - 77

4 - 78

6 - 62

7 - 73

6 - 80

5 - 90

In his final year with the Ravens, Torrey also had 7 such games that season:

Catches - Yards

3 - 81

4 - 63

5 - 75

5 - 98

6 - 65

5 - 59

4 - 83

Granted, Torrey's speed helps him to rack up TDs when he has a QB with the arm to take advantage, and he can be a PI magnet. But Aiken has already proven to be at least as steady week in, week out as Torrey, if not a bit more.

And Torrey's numbers this year with the 49ers have been awful, for the most part.

The problem with going the draft route and SSr retires is we are stuck with BP, Aiken, Draft selectoin, D Brown, Butler, Camp....That is a very unproven group with out any veteran guy to show them the ropes on being a WR in the NFL which imo is very important. 

 

If you have ever seen me post, ive always stated we didnt need a elite #1 guy, Boldin was our number one OPTION but he wasnt a elite WR to the rest of the league those years, but when playoff time came he was another animal.  We succeeded because we had awesome role players, numerous ones, a very well rounded offense and thats what i think we need again. 

 

Trestman has done a great job with wha the has to work with and im a fan of his, i think we could have an explosive offense, i just think it will be a mistake to rely on Aiken as a 2, i think hes a good 3, thats all i have been trying to say, He's a JAG.  We wont have much cap room and i believe we will sign a veteran WR and im starting to lean more towards Nate Washington, not that im advocating for him, just a hunch. 

 

Do you think we draft/sign a WR to be a starter?

 

Sidenote, i would love for you to be right and Aiken prove me wrong. 

If you're OK with Garcon as a #2, then you should be OK with Aiken in that role.

I think we sign somebody to compete with Perriman and a draft pick as our other starter, though I hope it isn't Nate Washington who as a smaller WR at 33 probably won't be an improvement over Butler at that point.

But why do you think Aiken is nothing but a JAG?

Garcon was the number one receiver when he was 27.  When he was 28 the Skins signed Djax.  If they hadn't signed Djax he would have continued to be the number 1 wideout on the team and would have had more  targets.  I'm not saying he would have caught over 100 balls like he did a couple years ago, but he probably would have caught 70-80. 

Why do you think they signed DJax?

Because Garcon's yards per reception of 11.9 that year preclude him from being a true #1 WR.

He was the #1 WR that year, purely by default, just like Aiken now is.

You can disagree all you want, I'm telling you, the numbers and the tape both point to Aiken being very similar to Garcon.

That's who he reminds me of.

I like how you used Jacoby as an example lol. I could name a whole lot of WR's still playing at a high level who are way north of 30 (like someone on our team). And Pierre Garçon was really the only viable playmaker available for Washington in 2013 and all he did was catch 113 passes for 1,346 yards and 5 TD's. And before you bring up the age or experience excuse, Boldin had a similar stat line his rookie year but Kamar can't top 100 yards in a single game this season lol.

Then, why don't you do it.

Garcon caught 113 passes, but on 181 targets.

That's why he's never duplicated those numbers, before or since, because he's never duplicated those targets.

However, 181 targets is roughly double the 94 targets Aiken currently has.

So, if we double Aiken's targets, double his receptions and double his yards, we get these numbers.

188 targets, 108 passes, 1348 yards.

Numbers which are very similar to what Garcon produced in the only season where he had that many targets.

Because that's about what Aiken would produce if he ever had that many targets in any season.

Because Aiken is now that type of WR: not much of a deep threat, but a tough, reliable chain mover who can be productive over the short/intermediate/middle of the field. And you can't sleep on him entirely, because he can get behind you and beat you deep if he sets you up for it first.

He got open deep a few times this year, but Joe underthrew him, and now that Givens is here, that's his role, not Aiken's.

Yea i see what your saying.  But you kind of eluded to my point.  Aiken is getting to the age that Garcon had his best year, be he also was producing before hand, for numerous seasons.  Aiken has had chances to win starting jobs, hes been on numerous teams.  Im not dogging the guy i just think we have seen what he has to offer and theres nothing wrong with that.  Is it possible he just starts lighting it up and puts up better numbers, possibly, i just dont think it will happen.  And to help your point, im sure his numbers would look much better with Joe continously out there with him, maybe not though.   Garcon may be 30, but SSr is about 37 and he was playing like one of the best WRs in the leauge, not putting them in the same convo by any means, just making a statement age doesnt always matter.  BTW, Jacoby was a return specialst, for the love of god please tell me you know that Jacoby meant more to this team than Aiken has/will. 

 

We have a very young WR corps and Garcon would bring a veteran presence which is always nice to have for young WRs to learn from.  I guess you could call Aiken a veteran but you really think he is in the position to be a leader in the WR corps when he couldnt even win a job without injuries? Its like asking your friend to tutor you in math when he is barely passing....

 

I havent followed your posts at all, but whats your gameplan going in to next season? especially if SSr retires? you want to roll with BP, Aiken, Camp, Butler, D Brown? that is going to be scary.  Or do you suggest we draft a WR (wha round) or sign a FA (who).

We can't count on Perriman or SSS at the moment.

So, we need to either sign or draft another potential starter to play alongside Aiken, who will be the other starter by default because: he's earned it, he's the best option, and he and Flacco have already started to build a rapport that hopefully they can continue to improve upon.

Forget about having a, for sure, bona fide #1 WR. Unless he comes cheap because of baggage (Josh Gordon), age (Roddy White) or injury (SSS?).

We don't have the cap space for anyone better and we can't be certain that we already have one or that we can draft one who will play at that #1WR level immediately as a rookie.

But if we can get 2 starters, with our TEs and RBs along with complimentary WRs who are productive in that role like Butler and D. Brown seem to be (maybe Camp too if he finally gets healthy) we should be solid with our passing game.

Just need Trestman to continue to help scheme these guys open, and play to their strengths, which he's shown a willingness and capability to do.

It isn't ideal, but as long as it's good enough to compliment a strong running game--which Trestman will have to use more of--then it should be enough.

As for who I think we should draft, I haven't looked at any film on draftbreakdown yet, nor watched much college ball.

And until we see how our cap shakes out, and who gets cut. it's impossible to list any potential FA signings.

We're not getting Alshon, that much I do know.

Career

 

Garcon

5864 yards in 114 games

51.4 avg yards a gmae

31 TDs

 

Aiken

1031 yards in 32 games

32.2 avg yards a game

4 Tds

 

Aiken has played in 29 games for Baltimore and hasnt put up 1000 yards...Stats are fun

What does the past have to do with the present or near-future?

If we're talking the past or career, then yes, Garcon's has been better.

But then, his has been longer, so naturally it would be better. Clearly, he has the edge in experience.

However, Garcon will be 30 next year, the age when WRs often start to decline (see Jacoby Jones).

Aiken will be 27, which is typically when WRs reach their physical, athletic peak.

Garcon himself had his best season, by far, at age 27.

How can you be so confident that Aiken won't do the same?

Especially when this season, he's already shown that he may have developed to Garcon's level, since again for this season their production has been very comparable.

Btw, Garcon never had a season like his age 27 one prior or since. So, it's a complete outlier.

His typical season throughout his career matches up with the season Aiken is currently having.

There are exceptions, but in general, once a screw up always a screw up.

Good thing none of the money is guaranteed.

Gillmore compares to Heath Miller

Nobody compares to Gronk.

Thanks for the laugh. Aiken is nowhere near Garçon's level nor should Kamar be a starter. This same thinking of having faith in Kamar for not just being a number three has gotten us to where we are today: picking up scrub WR's from the bargain bin. Aiken is being force fed the ball and still can't top 100 yards in a single game. This is why our offense is mediocre, because we rely on mediocre undrafted players who we grab from someone else's practice squad to play an extremely important skill position

Garcon - Age 29 - 6th Rd. Draft Pick

6' 0'' - 216 ibs. - 4.48 (40 time)

59 catches - 91 targets

614 yds - 3 TDs

10.4 yds per catch - 4.5 catches per game - 47.2 yds per game

Aiken - Age 26 - UDFA

6' 2' - 215 lbs. - 4.45 (40 time)

54 catches - 94 targets

674 yds - 4TDs

12.5 yds per catch - 4.2 catches per game - 51.8 yds per game

Seems fairly even to me.

But why let facts get in the way of our biases?