gabefergy

5 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Will Hill had more indiscretions and suspensions and FO gave him another chance. I think if they are happy with what they hear in the interview, there won't be any reason to pass on Spence, even without trading back.

You can't compare a cheap FA signing and a first round draft pick. The level of investment is worlds apart.

There might be a very minisculte chance where the Ravens trade back a couple spots and still get Buckner, and Spence slides to the back end of the first and the Ravens trade back up to get him.

Lots of things would have to go right, and the Ravens would have to be OK with Spence which I am still am very skeptical of. I think we all see what Spence can do on the football field and assume the FO will ignore his very troubled history. I believe that might be wishful thinking.

5 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

1. He stops his comeback. He literally turns and stops. That would have been a very good YAC play had he actually worked back to the ball from the get-go. However, that play did not require a dive. He should have fully extended his arms, but he keeps his arms crunched into his body on those type of throws.
2. Not in front, but definitely not behind him. That's square in the chest, which is a play that can definitely be made with your hands without jumping into the air.
3. That's not a hands catch. He's allowing it to come into his chest, crunching his arms up, and turning his hands over to form a breadbasket, if you will. It's really not uncommon on those type of routes for him.
4. That's not even close to being behind him... It was a fast throw, but you still have to make that catch.
5. He still crunches up his arms and tries to wait for the ball to come to him. He does not try to go attack the ball.
6. Refer to the above.
7. Yeah, first time... Sounds about right.
9. That's not behind... It wasn't out in front, but similar to before, it's right there for him to make the play. 

I'm not surprised to see all these excuses. It's really not surprising coming from you with your love-fest. Not all of these throws are bad and as a soon to be professional NFL wide receiver, you are expected to catch the ball that hits your hands or is in your numbers. Not a single one of them was actually behind him to the point that he had to completely turn around. They may not have been the perfect throws, but you still have got to make the play. For someone who's supposed to be the number two receiver in this class, according to you, not making those plays is inexcusable. You said he's a top 15 talent, but he can't catch a pass that's at his hip every once in a while? I can create a whole slew of GIFs that show passes that were way too high or way too far behind, but all of these are passes he'd be expected to catch. 

I said I wouldn't reply, but wow, I'm shocked at the excuses you're making for him. 

You're biased. It's obvious. That's fine. It's not worth arguing over. I'm not making excuses, I just have a better idea of what I'm looking at than you.

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ok so I watched a lot of film while I was at work the past 2 nights, and I've changed my mind on Jack, he is a lot tougher than I gave him credit for, he actually does play with a punch, and when playing downhill he can really deliver a jolt to a blocker, and the ground he covers is incredible. He also diagnoses plays as well as any college lb I have seen. I would be ok with drafting him. 

 

However I still maintain that he gives up far too much ground when trying to pursue laterally in the run game, he struggles to find a lane and just circles around and let's the play advance, I think Mosley can make up for that though because that's what he does best. And I still prefer buckner or Spence by a mile, but I'd be ok with Jack.

AHA! glad you are coming over to the dark side. From a need perspective, I would be OK with taking Spence although I very very highly doubt the Ravens take him at #6 with his off the field. It's just not an Ozzie thing to do.

I'm also a big Buckner fan, but I just think Jack impacts the game in more ways and more importantly in more ways that we desperately need. Buckner's biggest asset is his run defense. He's not a slouch as a pass-rusher, but I don't see him as a guy who gets 8-10 sack as an interior rusher. 

The best part is, we can't go wrong with any of them!

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Okay, so what credibility do you have? Tell me what you do that makes you an expert.

When did I say I was a expert again? 

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Link (Body catching the comeback). Link (Completely allows the throw into his body). Link (Same thing, body catching). Link (I've noticed this as a fairly frequent issue, but he uses his arms to catch deep balls instead of his hands, similar to Jacoby Jones). Link (Drop over the middle because he allows a throw into his body). Link (He gets into a 50/50 ball situation and crunches up his arms to arm catch it. Does not attack with hands). Link (Completely alligator arms another deep ball. Had the corner go up, that's probably not a catch). Link (Allows a throw into his body because he wants to get his arms under the throw). Link (Same thing, drops a pass over the middle because he tries to get his arms under it, not hands catch it). Link (Inside curl, tries to get arms under it, allows it into body, drops it).

This also entirely ignores the fact that he's a terrible blocker. No, I don't mean the minimal effort he gives because the play isn't to his side. I mean that when the quarterback scrambles or when the running back cuts back to his side, he gives hardly any effort or shows awful technique and allows many plays to get blown up because he's a flat out terrible blocker. 

There- There's 10 GIFs from a few different games. There are only so many games available and they don't have every single offensive play, but 10 from three or four different games should make my point. There were more plays that were questionable, but these should do. I have nothing more to say at this point.

First link, the ball is way off of frame and he has to dive to catch the ball. Trying to extend and just catch with his hands would have made it a much lower % play.

Second link, the ball is at his waist and behind him. He had to turn to make the catch, extending backwards with just his hands turns it into a lower % play.

Third link, isn't over the middle, and is a ball once again underthrown, also he catches the ball with his hands and brings it in to his body. He doesn't let it into his body first.

Fourth link, terrible throw from the QB is behind the receiver, low, and thrown way to hard for a pass from 5 yards away.

Fifth link, once again not over the middle, but yes, this is a play where ideally he jumps up and catches the ball away from frame, although this is quite difficult for a receiver going full speed to stop, contort his body in attempt to highpoint. If the ball is placed better it's not an issue. Very few WRs have the body control to make this type of play consistently.

Sixth link, mistimed jump, not alligator armed. Still an extremely athletic play.

7th link, was the one time in 6 games the ball was accurately placed and he let it get into his body.

8th link is broken

9th link, another bad pass, low and behind the receiver, but it was one of the drops I noted before.

10th link, bad drop.

So yes, there are instances in which Coleman allows the ball get into his body, but as previously stated the vast marjority are plays where the ball is underthrown or thrown low and/or behind the receiver. Only 1 drop was on a ball that was not poorly placed. Could it be an issue at the next level? Yes, I believe it could be a problem on contested catches when Coleman has to make major adjustments to the ball. He will probably have some drops just like every other WR that ever played the game.

Am I specifically worried about plays over the middle? Not at all. 

55 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

It's an issue on slants in all the games I've seen. The vast majority I have seen in videos have come over the middle because he allows way too many catches into his body when he's going over the middle, so no, I'm not. You have done zero research and probably don't even review any game tape. You probably watched his videos once four months ago and try to act like you're some professional scout.

You have no clue what I do or don't do. You like to make up things and instead of taking responsibility for your made up stories deflect blame to others.

Here's what I have seen in re-watching 6 videos on Draftbreakdown. 3 drops on passes that could be considered "over the middle". 2 of them were at or below the waist and slightly behind the reciever, with no influence from the defender at all. One was a flat drop.  The "body catching", if you want to call it that, is 9/10 times because the ball is at or below the waist. I counted one catch on a slant where the ball was allowed to get into his frame and not because it was low. Balls at shoulder or chest height are virtually always caught with hands away from the body. Poor ball placement was a common theme on slants.

7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't know how to make a GIF and post it onto here, but tomorrow, I'll go ahead and get on draftbreakdown and post the exact games and times. 

I didn't make up statistics as they were all from other sources, which I happily showed you. 

Saying the marjority of his drops came when he went over the middle is completely made up, so no, you're wrong.

4 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

That's completely fine that you've been breaking down receivers, but you don't have any credibility to say that he has good catching technique after you acknowledged earlier that neither you or I has more credibility than that blogger (whose breakdown you should read. It's very thorough and vastly superior to anything I have seen on here or from a scouting report). Basically, you have what you think is knowledge, but no proof since I doubt any professional website has actually used you as a reference. If they have, please, provide it.

Oh, man, you were right a whole one time on Marqise Lee (a receiver who many soured on as the draft approached). Should we give you a medal? Oh right, there's that sarcasm which usually comes out when someone has a long fall from that high horse of theirs. 

It definitely is a consistent occurrence with Coleman on slants/comebacks/anything over the middle. It is a consistent issue in that regard. I suppose you could say argue it's not a consistent issue since the vast majority of his routes are vertical based routes and he does well there, but when he is asked to comeback to the ball or go across the middle, it's an issue.

Here's the website that I used. It's only got 10 games (that would be the discrepancy, I suppose), but it includes 7 of the 10 games that Seth Russell played in. http://ncaasavant.com/player.php?player_name=C.Coleman&team=baylor&year=2015

At this point in time, he is limited. And hey, maybe he can buck the trend and actually become one of the complete Baylor receivers to come out since Terrance Williams and Josh Gordon definitely showed to be much better in the deep passing game. History and tape aren't on his side.

How about you show some evidence of all these times "anything over the middle" results in drops and body catches? Like in which games at which point. That would be evidence. So instead of making up or exaggerating statistics, why don't you show me this consistent failure to make plays over the middle. 

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I didn't say it was a flaw, but when he's dropping passes, losing concentration, getting thrown off his game based on where he runs his routes, that is an issue. Besides, what I did say is it's a concern because unless I'm completely wrong, Baylor does utilize the middle of the field for their passing plays. Just because he's in a spread system doesn't mean that the route tree is completely shaven down to only feature three routes. 

His catching technique is good and he has good hands, which is exactly why his drop rate is up around 12%-15% when it's actually tracked by people. That makes a lot of sense. Sure, he really does show some good hands on his vertical routes, but watch him on curls/slants/any route that doesn't require him to track the deep ball and he has a tendency to allow the ball into his body. I'll admit he shows a good catch radius, but if that ball is placed in the numbers, he's probably allowing it into the numbers. He also only catches 53.6% of his targets to go along with that drop rate. I know, not all of that is his fault because balls could be thrown poorly, but it's still a low number. 

Where did you find those games? I've seen the ones on draftbreakdown.com and those are the only ones (all 6). That's still more than a lot of scouts will watch before passing judgement, though. 

I just completely disagree with most everything you are saying. The sarcastic attitude isn't helping your argument either. I've been breaking down WRs for a long time and I have a strong grasp of good catching technique vs bad. Marqise Lee had a terrible catching technique. I was extremely negative towards him compared to most on this board and I have been proven to be correct. Sure, sometimes a ball will get into a WR's body. If it's a consistent occurence, then maybe you have a problem. It's NOT a consistent occurence with Coleman. You say 53.6% of targets were caught? That is not what I have seen, although once again I did not do the charting. This website has him at 61.2% and that is despite some of the worst QB play I have seen over the 2nd half of the 2015 season. Baylor was literally playing a WR with zero previous collegiate QB XP. Does he need to learn a more advanced route tree? Yes. Was he primarily used as a boundary receiver? Yes. Those facts don't influence my evaluation one iota, and frankly there is no reason for them to be given any real consideration. Can Coleman make contested catches? Yes. Does he have sudden movement skills and the ability to sink his hips in and out of breaks? Yes. Can he beat press coverage? Yes. If you want to hang onto your notion that he is a limited WR that's fine, but I am fully confident Coleman will not only be a high draft pick, I am also confident that he will be a very good NFL WR.

11 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

I'd actually rather take Shepard over Fuller for a speed receiver.

I really like Shepard, but I don't see him as a speed receiver in the same sense. IMO Shepard is more quick than fast, and more of a slot/move the chains type than a deep threat.

I love what Camp can do when he is on the field, but of course he has to be on the field to make plays. We can talk about his potential all day, but he has to stay healthy.

I think he can be a real playmaker for us as a slot WR and gadget player. I'm hoping he can stay healthy because it will be a big boost for the offense.

4 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Both NFL.com and CBS.com have called into question his ability to actually catch with consistency. One blogger just happened to do far more scouting than you or I do and happened to track the numbers. 

I could post just as many scouting reports about him as you that say otherwise to that, but the fact of the matter, for me, is that he runs over 50% of his routes on the boundary and has a drop rate of at least 12%, possibly higher. He allows too many passes into his frame and doesn't work back for the ball, which is extremely concerning for someone who runs as many curls as Coleman. His lack of tendency to work back to the ball and tendency to let the ball into his frame has really hurt him as a 50/50 ball type guy. 

Sure, he can absolutely fly and he's really explosive, but he's got a ton of flaws you seem to be unwilling to admit.

I've admitted his flaws as I see them. Where he runs his routes is not a flaw, it's called a system. I don't know why that is so hard to understand. He really doesn't allow that many passes into his frame, that would be an inaccurate statement. I have watched every single one of his games that are available online so I have done the research. I haven't charted every route run or every drop, but what I have done is consistently noted WR specific traits that translate to the NFL. He doesn't have bad hands as you seem to be insinuating. His catching technique is good, he plucks the ball away from his frame the vast majority of the time. He could be stronger at the point of attack in some cases, but it's not a fatal flaw or a consistent problem. He makes catches in traffic. 

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

"Dropped 10 passes for a drop rate of 11.9 percent. Loses focus and concentration on routes that work towards the middle of the field or when he senses defenders are closing in."

He's not widely viewed by any analyst, whatsoever, as a legitimate threat over the middle and there are major concerns over his ability to go over the middle.

By one blogger. I'll trust my eyes over someone else's that has no better credentials than you or I. 

It's not as if one of the most respected analysts in the media and former Ravens scout Daniel Jeremiah has him as his WR1

On underneath throws, he attacks the ball and shows a big-time burst to generate yards after the catch. He lacks ideal wiggle but he has the strength to break tackles. Overall, he will need some time to develop as a route runner but his combination of burst and ball skills is special.

Pretty much exactly what I have said from the beginning.

OR you could ask Josh Norris, who writes for a real website and also has Coleman as his WR1 and #3 overall player 

Functional athleticism helped Coleman win both “small” and “big” while at Baylor, and the latter is difficult to find with a 5’10/190 lbs receiver. Coleman will win contested catches, elevating over corners or adjusting with body control to haul in targets. Add that on top of vertical speed, quickness in and out of breaks and yards after catch ability, and Coleman has the tools to be an all-around receiver.

So we can play this game all day long. You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not going to hold the offensive system against the player when I see rare athletic and explosive traits in a WR. I don't see a player that shies away from contact or is unwilling to go over the middle. Drops are a concern, but not a big enough concern to negate the rest of the awesomness. Amari Cooper led the league in drops this past season, does that mean he's a bad WR? 

7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Because it really does put him in a great position to utilize his speed in coverage and against the run

No differently than in the scenarios I put forth. He's more versatile than that, and it's silly to try to say he should only play one role on defense when he clearly can do far more that that. 

11 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

"I counted his drop rate at 14.6 percent (17.8 percent (!!!) with games including rain), which is quite high. That doesn't include some of his contested catches, which I counted as PDs, where he was three of eight attempts (37.5%).

For some context, the NFL.com scouting report has it at 11.9 percent, but the evaluator seems to be marking drops per target and I am marking drops per "drops plus catch"—modifying his formula to mine and PFF's makes his effective drop rate, according to Lance Zierlein, 14.4%."

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/2/11/10965050/scouting-report-corey-coleman-and-the-fringe-case

Yeah? Or maybe I just do research.

This has nothing to do with where his drops were or what percentage of his routes went over the middle, so no you didn't do any research, you copied and pasted someone else's research that has nothing to do with the point you were trying, but failed, to make.

Patriots give:

QB Jimmy Garoppolo (.5 stars)

Rams give:

Round 4 pick 12 and CB E.J. Gaines (.5 stars)

53 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

When he was asked to do it, allowed way too many passes into his body and dropped many of them with a defender closing in. He wasn't asked to do it much possibly because he's scared to go over the middle. His dropped pass rate is around 12%, most of that coming when he was asked to go over the middle.

So, not only is he rarely asked to run routes over the middle, but he also drops them when he does. Couple this with a smaller receiver who can be walled off to the sideline by bigger, more physical receivers and you have a huge issue on your hands.

You are making up stats, and you know it.

50 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Here's the thing with Myles Jack- You name everything he can do, but I saw a quote, and I entirely agree, that said to just simply put him at the WILL and go attack. Don't try to get too cute, just let him go attack the play.

He does a lot more than your average Will LB, so why pigeonhole him?

5 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Jack is an amazing player and superior athlete my only question what role will he fill he's not really a true pass rusher so do we put him at ILB next to Mosley. I like him but that's the problem where does he fit. 

Yeah he plays ILB next to Mosley in base D. He can be moved around though which is a huge benefit. You can play big nickel with him as your third in the box safety. You can play 4-3 with him as a Will, we saw this at times with Orr on the field, but Jack would obviously be a huge upgrade over Daryl Smith in coverage. You can line him up over TEs or WRs in the slot. He just gives the defense a ton of versatility.

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I'm not calling anyone out here but I love how every WR who can run routes that has good hands is called another Antonio Brown. I hate comparing prospects to current pros unless we're saying the prospect could become like said comparison eventually. 

Antonio Brown and Michael Thomas isn't a good comparison and Corey Coleman may actually be a better comparison for Brown since both were fast players with great change of direction and YAC ability who could return the ball but needed work on their routes. I don't see Antonio Brown in Michael Thomas at all. 

I haven't been able to come across a great comp for Thomas. I see a bit of Brandon Marshall in that he's a big guy with sudden movements, but Marshall is a rare talent in how he uses his size to create separation. I'm not sure I see that in Thomas.

39 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Surprised by the amount of dislike for the Fuller pick.  I'm not 100% sold on him.  The hands are my big concern obviously, but damn if he doesn't have that extra gear to break away from guys.  As much as drops annoy me, I think Fuller is the exact type of guy we need.  He's a serious threat and I think he'd really help to open up this offense even more.  That extra gear is something special and unteachable.

Yeah, I think he would be a huge asset in our offense with Flacco's arm. He might drop a couple deep ones, but chances are he will take 10 more to the house. I think the DeSean comp is pretty spot on, but Fuller isn't the headcase.

25 minutes ago, Edgar said:

1)Myles Jack might be the best football player in this draft...for me i would hope for either jack or spence at six - Jack is truly fun to watch

2) I see what you like about fuller. There are some things that bother me. You mentioned his size,he also lets the ball get to his body way too much.

3) I need to watch this guy

i like Cyrus jones at that point.For a draft this stacked with d-tackle and DE prospects into middle rounds,I'm surprised you don't have us drafting one for a mock you feel should be leaning defense. 

I thought about a couple guys, but I think the DT/DE position is pretty strong right now for the Ravens. They could use a guy who can rush from the interior, but outside of the first round I'm not sure I see many guys in this draft who will be able to bring that ability. If Bob Nkemdiche would somehow fall to the 2nd or maybe even a Kenny Clark, I think I'd take them ahead of a WR.

1 hour ago, Clmraven said:

I like this draft,im actually a fan of Fuller's, its not often you find a guy with elite explosion start/stop ability along with elite deep speed usually it's one or the other, but he's a body catcher and frankly has horrible hands he led the league in drops on deep passes and total drops the last 2 seasons that's a huge concern for me, not to mention he kinda looks like he has alligator arms.

He's a cross between Torrey Smith (bad hands/body catching) and DeSean Jackson (lean frame), but he might have better speed than either of them and he tracks the ball just as well as DeSean and completely blows Torrey out of the water when it comes to tracking. He's scored 30 TDs for the Irish and that's no fluke.

6 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

I don't mind Jack as the pick if Buckner, Bosa, and Ramsey are gone. Not that into Fuller though. I think there'll be better WRs available in the 2nd.

I'd take Jack over Buckner, and I like Buckner a lot. I think the DL is already pretty stout and while DeForest is a decent pass-rusher he's not going to be dominant in the NFL imo. He just doesn't have the elite explosiveness. Jack just brings more playmaking ability and would take a major weakness into major strength. We got killed this past year because we couldn't cover the middle of the field.