jravens13

I just want a defensive minded draft and the effort to get back to being a physically dominant defensive team. That is how we became consistent winners and had a track record in the playoffs. Adding another WR, TE, and RB did nothing for the win column in 2015.

Average QB's on defensive minded teams that won the SB in this century: (Trent Dilfer 2000, Tom Brady 2001, Brad Johnson 2002, Tom Brady 2003, Big Ben 2005, Eli Manning 2008, Eli Manning 2011, Joe Flacco 2012, Peyton Manning 2015). The majority of those teams didn't even have overwhelming offensive weapons.

Joey Bosa, Jaylon Smith, Vernon Hargreaves, and Myles Jack are all great options at No. 6.

I just want a defensive minded draft and the effort to get back to being a physically dominant defensive team. That is how we became consistent winners and had a track record in the playoffs. Adding another WR, TE, and RB did nothing for the win column in 2015.

Average QB's on defensive minded teams that won the SB in this century: (Trent Dilfer 2000, Tom Brady 2001, Brad Johnson 2002, Tom Brady 2003, Big Ben 2005, Eli Manning 2008, Eli Manning 2011, Joe Flacco 2012, Peyton Manning 2015). The majority of those teams didn't even have overwhelming offensive weapons.

Well I have heard of 13 on the list and actually thought it was interesting! We are a smaller market east coast team and unlikely to get much of Hollywood on our bandwagon. Unless Harbaugh decides to build that dynasty he was always talking about...

23 hours ago, billiejean said:

And you are on the Bosa hype train, which has been traveling much longer and faster than Buckners. That said Upshaw probably isn't a great comparison. Chris Long is probably a player that Bosa most resembles.

Go watch how they play on youtube. See who wins the battle at the line of scrimmage and see how they do it. You will understand why I favor Bosa over Buckner. 

On 2/20/2016 at 9:50 AM, billiejean said:

 

I will say this again because a lot of what you are saying I agree with.  I would pick Bosa over Buckner at this point if I had to choose.  Im not sure if mentioning his size really supports your arguments because Buckner is 6'7 290 and is as fast if not faster than Bosa.  But what I really disagree with is this line....

"And i am telling you that I don't see the explosiveness from Buckner"  

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not there.  It is readily apparent when watching tape of Buckner and Bosa.  And I am not saying that Buckner is the most explosive guy in the world.  He is just more explosive than Bosa.  And again if you don't take my word for it check out these scouting reports.

 

nfl.com - "Quick off the snap and difficult to cut­ off in run game. Long arms and good play speed allow him maximum field coverage to tackle"

walterfootball.com - "Flashes a quick first step"

nflmocks.com - "Buckner is surprisingly quick off the ball for his size. His first step quickness is quite alarming for a man that big, you’ll see him on almost every other play pounce off the ball quicker than his fellow defensive linemen.

todayspigskin.com - "A combination of quickness, strength, and length makes him a force along the defensive line. Quick out of his stance and attacks the offensive lineman placing both hands squarely inside his chest:"

fueledbysports.com - "Quick first step"

bigbluereview.com - "He plays with explosive movements and terrific body control for his size"

nfldraftreport - "but he has that quick burst off the snap and very strong hands needed to pull and jerk down offensive lineman"

breakingfootball.com - " Quick first step"

mockdraftshq.com -"Great first step for his size, better burst than Bosa"

I credit you for doing your research on Buckner. I would rather draft a guy who does everything right and never stops grinding over a guy who cheats technique and takes plays off. The "first step" is a non factor for me. I'm just gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope that I am buying a Jaylon Smith, Joey Bosa, or Vernon Hargreaves jersey this year.  

QB: The most important and most overrated position in the NFL. Flacco needs help on the defensive side of the ball.

17 hours ago, Ravenous_Ravens said:

Yup. Nailed it. Bosa is a bull rush style pass rusher, He's not got the many moves or quick twitch to juke guys out of their pants. Drafting Bosa would be like a replacement for Upshaw if things go that way. Buckner has moves but not really a bull rush. He is also much more raw and will require some time to get the best he has to offer. Bosa if you want a quick plug and play, or Buckner if you can afford a season of learning before letting things fly. Given the fact Ravens still have Suggs and Dummervil, Buckner makes more sense giving two solid mentors a chance to bring him up to speed. Also I personally think the Ravens coaches are great at developing talent.

Laughable comparison to Upshaw. Buckner can't hold Bosa's jock. It is funny to see how many people already bought the hype. 

18 hours ago, billiejean said:

Yea Buckner doesn't get as much pressure because he is playing at 3-4 DE while Bosa plays 4-3 DE. When I say explosive I mean quick twitch muscles (suddenness). And yes Buckner is much more explosive than Bosa and if you don't take my word for it, I googled Joe Bosa scouting report, and these were the first seven scouting reports on Bosa.

CBS sports - "Not a quick-twitch rusher and doesn't play with consistent explosion"

musiccitymiracles.com - "Inconsistent explosion off of the line of scrimmage. Lacks some quickness, quick-twitch ability."

NFL.com - "Not as twitchy and sudden as expected. Feet are a little heavy and it takes just a second to accelerate up to speed"

Bleacherreport - "but on base sets as an edge defender, he's going to win with strength, breaking down the will of the right tackle or tight end slowly, not explosive speed"

todayspigskin - Bosa lacks the explosive first step that most of the dominant pass rushers seem to have"

nflmocks.com - "My immediate issue with Bosa is that he’s slow off the line. He knows it too because he over compensates it and gets called off sides multiple times a game."

nflbreakdowns.com - "Above average speed, but not the quick-twitch athlete you want to see from a top-tier prospect.
Due to lack of quick-twitch muscles, he doesn’t (and rarely attempted) covert speed-to-power."

Again I didn't cherry pick these. His lack of explosion really shows up on tape. This doesn't mean he's going to be a bad player, its just that Buckner is much more explosive. That being said Buckner is very raw and can't hold a candle to Bosa's hand placement and technique.  I'm not disagreeing with you over the fact that Bosa is the better prospect, I'm just pointing out that his explosion, suddenness, quick twitch does not match Buckners.

I understand that you think Bosa isn't as fast out the gate as some smaller rushers, but he is 6'6" 275. His style of play is more of a run stuffing, bull rushing/rip technique. He will need to add more moves to his game, but you can't deny how powerful he is, and how he gets after it. And I am telling you that I don't see the explosiveness from Buckner. Maybe he has straight line speed, but he really isn't that quick. He also just throws his shoulders into guys and plays very lazy. Bosa is a lock to be a great contributor in the NFL. Or you could roll the dice in the top 10 for a guy who might be no more than a rotational interior lineman. My hope is that all these "experts" help Bosa fall to No. 6 cause he absolutely manhandled college talent. Buckner is honestly not Top 15 material. Watch Voch Lombardi on youtube: He breaks down both players very well, but also feels like Bosa isn't Von Miller material. Who is lol? 

What is Boyle on? And the suspension seems lengthy. Is this the MLB?

49 minutes ago, billiejean said:

Buckner is much more explosive than Bosa will ever be. Is Bosa out of your top 10 too?

Are we watching the players? They both played Michigan State this year. Watch their game film on youtube. Bosa was causing nightmares for the QB, and Michigan State never ran at him. Buckner was a non factor in the MSU game, and was getting pushed around. MSU is a great gauge of talent because they have an NFL caliber O-Line. 

Bosa doesn't not cheat technique, or his responsibility, and he is incredible powerful. His motor does not stop, and he beats Tackles and Guards on a regular basis off the edge and against the run. Bosa is much quicker and has more moves in his arsenal than Buckner. Buckner honestly does not get off of blocks and win at the line of scrimmage enough for me. I don't think Buckner has developed the ability to play with good leverage, and I do not think he is worthy a top 10 pick. Buckner played against subpar talent in a pass happy conference. Bosa played against some of the best linemen in the country and might have had the sack record if he played in the Pac 12. Bosa is Suggs 2.0

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Realistically we are in the top 15 as is. Factor in a healthy Suggs, a few vets, and a defensive based draft and we are undeniably a top 10 unit. Right now the top 5-10 is pretty hard to crack as the Broncos, Panthers, Seahawks, Cardinals, are the elite units then the rest are a toss up between Cincy, Jets, KC, Houston, etc. But I pray first 4 rds are all pass rushers and secondary, unless an offensive talent is better obviously, but we can stop the run with our front 7, now we need pass rushing specialist to add in the mix after the first I hope that an Ogbah, Floyd, Oakmen or Calhoun fall to us.

We ranked 24th in Points Allowed last year. 6th in Points allowed in 2014 with Kubiak controlling the clock. 11th in 2013, 12th in 2012. What I see from this defense in the regression in the ability to stop higher end QB's and Offenses. Sure we look good against the Rams, but how good do we look against good QB's? Andy Dalton, Carson Palmer, Russell Wilson, Alex Smith. We had an easy schedule and still couldn't stop a lick. Even in 2014 we struggled vs the better QB's. We used to dominate (Top 5). Sure with the right additions we could enter the Top 10 discussion again, but I think Pees is a major part of the equation that we have not resolved. There has to be a better D-Coordinator out there. I will credit him for figuring out Pittsburgh. I just don't think his play calling uses our players to their strengths. 

1 hour ago, trevorsteadman said:

I would disagree I think the Ravens are closer to a top defense than most give them credit. #2 passing defense the second half of the season without Suggs. That is very impressive. Add in they were top 10 against the run during that time as well. I just don't see Vernon Hargreaves worth a top 10 pick, he is good but a lot of cornerbacks flop in the NFL... Especially at 5'11. That reminds me of a Joe Haden or Lardarius Webb all over again. Buckner has a huge ceiling but he also is still raw and needs to learn a bit. I think Ramsey can play cornerback and safety, he may give up some yards as a rookie but I think he will create turnovers like Marcus Peters did last season. Gave up 900 yards and 7 touchdowns but a lot of turnovers to back it up that propelled him to the pro bowl as a rookie. Jaylon Smith or Myles Jack would be solid picks I actually think if Smith was healthy he would go top 3, he isn't as flashy or versatile as Jack but he makes plays. I also think a team like San Diego would pass on Bosa because DE is more of a priority and Buckner would fit better. I also think Jacksonville would rather go with Ramsey due to they drafted Fowler last year that has yet to touch the field so it will be like having two rookies for them this year. The Cowboys, Browns, and Titans are the teams I would be worried about. Titans I do believe pick Tunsil.. I would he is the best player in the draft in my opinion.... The Browns hopefully have not learned from their mistake of drafting a ton of quarterbacks and expecting a complete turn around. They need to start drafting best player available... But if they do draft a quarterback that helps. Cowboys I would guess take Jack because of #1 his explosiveness and versatility that they need on their defense and #2 then he can be used in a situational running back role which they proved they also could need help there next season. 

Joe Haden is 5' 11" and is a Pro Bowl caliber CB. Revis is 5' 11", Vontae Davis is 5' 11", Chris Harris is 5' 10", Josh Norman is 6'. Most successful CB's in the NFL are 5'11-6'1". Peters is 6' 0" also. Hargreaves might measure out at 5' 10", but his footwork, tackling ability, and relentless style of play make him worth drafting very high.  Ramsey looked pretty poor playing corner, but his athleticism allows him to make plays on the ball. He wasn't an impact player at corner like he was at safety. It was obvious, and he got beat a lot. Hargreaves has serious ball skills btw. 10 Int's in 3 years as a starter.  Ramsey had 3 Int's in 3 years, and 0 playing outside at CB in 2015. I hope someone reaches for Ramsey before No. 6 though. My eyes are set on Jaylon Smith, or Bosa (miracle), and Hargreaves as the backup plan. 

1 hour ago, birdseye said:

I agree that Jaylon Smith would be worth the wait... however its unfair to say Buckner comes with a risk because people who have nothing to do with him except are from the same school haven't become good NFL players... If you're referring to Dion Jordan, he was a stand up, not hand in the dirt pass rusher, and completely different player. Similarly, Buckner is WAY more polished the Arik Armstead who came out last year, and his college production matches that even though he saw double and triple teams all year (unlike when armstead had Buckner on the other side of him last year). he had more sacks in October than Armstead had in his career. Laslty, the last Oregon defensive lineman we drafted turned out pretty darn good. Its not often you see a player with the freakish physical traits like Buckner and the production to back it up (in a system that doesn't suit lineman getting lots of stats)... If were creative with our defense, moving him to the inside on passing downs he will generate pass rush no doubt...

Can you tell who I want us to draft?

I don't see the explosiveness from Buckner to make him a Top 10 Pick. He is somewhat of a lazy pass rusher, but played in a pass happy conference with poor offensive line play. Would you honestly draft an interior lineman/run stuffer No. 6 overall when we already have some other promising young guys at the position? (Guy, Urban). The hype around Buckner is 100% about his size and his senior sack total. Look at the scores in the games he played. Those teams were throwing the ball nearly every time. 

39 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I don't see Bosa falling to us at 6 but I think a lot of us didn't see Leonard Williams falling last draft so it wouldn't be crazy if he did either. I almost think it is less of a possibility for Ramsey to fall to us. I can see teams in front of us taking the higher ceiling guys like Buckner ahead of us or Myles Jack that would drop Bosa. I still think he is probably the best pass rusher in the draft, and him with Suggs and Dumervil next year, with Jimmy Smith, Shareece Wright, Will Hill, and Brandon Williams.... If we get a better ballhawk safety and a decent nickel corner then that defense COULD be insane.

We are not close to being a top defense. But a good corner, and another pass rusher would definitely help bridge the gap. I would love Bosa, but I don't think it will come true. I would rather take Veron Hargraves, who will be a great CB, over Jalen Ramsey who will play Safety in the NFL. Buckner comes with a huge risk, as Oregon players have a poor track record in the NFL. Although he has a huge frame, I do not think he is explosive enough to really contribute as a pass rusher in the NFL. He is also a 3-4 DE, which has much less of an impact on the defense compared to an OLB or CB. Jaylon Smith is worth waiting for the recovery IMO. He might be the best defensive player in this draft. 

20 hours ago, billiejean said:

bosa is going to run a slow time alright. he is projected to run in the 4.8 range. what worries me about him is that he isn't very explosive unlike suggs.

JJ Watt ran a 4.84 40. Suggs ran a 4.84 also. He is just fine. Bosa is like a hybrid between Suggs and Watt, and will bring much needed chaos to our defense.  

Flacco's record since his contract: 22-22, 1 Playoff appearance in 3 years. 1 playoff win in 3 years. He is now overpaid, but so are most QB's in the NFL. The real issue is the fact that we have not addressed the defensive side of the football near enough since we won the Super Bowl. We have attempted patch up work on major flaws in our defense that have failed us when it matters. We have given some players and coaches too much time to continue to be let downs (Pees, Webb, A. Brown, M. Elam, C. Upshaw, A. Jackson, ). Accept the fact that CB's can only play at a high level for 3-5 years. The Webb contract was just as bad as the Pitta contract. We have drafted only 2 CB's in the first three rounds in 8 years under Harbaugh, and we wonder why our CB's can't cover!!!

1st Round:. We should be BPA: Jalen Ramsey is a playmaking safety, but he is not an NFL corner. Hargraves is exactly what we need at the CB position. His ability to tackle, cover, and relentless style of play is going to make him one of the better CB's in this league. He literally never quits on the play. Watch his film against Alabama. He also matched up with the best player he faced for the last 3 years.
1. Laremy Tunsil OT
2. Joey Bosa DE
3. Jaylon Smith ILB/OLB
4. Miles Jack ILB
5. Vernon Hargraves CB
6. Jalen Ramsey S

There is plenty of value in the second round at DE/OLB. I wonder if that causes us to take a CB or ILB at No. 6. If we take a WR, I have lost all faith in this team.

  1 hour ago, jravens13 said:

If Pitta doesn't retire or restructure to take the league minimum, he has lost all credibility in Baltimore.

He won't retire or restructure.

I will become a Pitta hater if that is the case. He got paid millions to rehab for the last 2 years. $11M Signing Bonus. $5 Million base. This year he is due another $5M. Not what we pay our players for.

I wouldn't mind trading back in the 10-15 range. We could get more picks and still get a difference maker in that range. My hope is that we get a corner or pass rusher. Honestly, I want a pass rusher more than anything. We have options on our roster at corner, and could bring in a FA. Pass rusher is a different story. We will have a 34 year old coming off another serious injury, and another pass rusher over 30 as well. We need to infuse some youth coming off the edge. If we trade back, I think Spence could be a real possibility, or Hargraves from Florida. If we stay at 6, I'm sure we will still get a talented player. If we trade back, we could be talking 3 picks within the first 50 selections.

There are some great pass rushers that will fall to the 2nd Round. I would rather get and elite player (BPA) at No. 6 than trade back. Tunsil, Bosa, Jack, Smith, Ramsey, or Hargraves III.

Look at Kevin Dodd, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Josh Perry, Jon Bullard, Shaq Calhoun in Round 2. There will be plenty rushers available when we pick at No. 36.

Also, I saw a mock draft who had us taking Myles Jack at 6. I would honestly love that pick. He can play inside or outside, and is great in coverage. Daryl Smith had a solid year again, but age began to show in coverage last year. Jack would be a great replacement for D. Smith after next year. Mosley and Jack together on the inside, with Jernagin and B. Williams up front....wow.

I agree. Jack is the future of the ILB position. You must be able to cover RB's, TE's, and slot WR's in space. Jaylon Smith would be great to have also.

IMHO, it makes total sense to franchise Tucker. He seemed to drop off just a little this year. Why not tag him and see what kind of year he has this next season?

How about kicks when the game was on the line? Sign him to a long term deal and tag KO if we can't sign him to a deal.

If Pitta doesn't retire or restructure to take the league minimum, he has lost all credibility in Baltimore.

Ramsey is not worth trading up for. He isn't even going to play CB in the NFL. He is much better suited, and more of an impact player at Safety, with the ability to move all over the field where he can line up at Nickel CB from time to time.

If we wan't the best CB in the draft, stay at 6, and let Vernon Hargraves III fall into our laps.

And we will not have the opportunity to draft the best CB in the draft for a very long time if we don't take a CB in the top 10 this year. It could forever be our achilles heel in the playoffs under the Harbaugh regime.

  28 minutes ago, crazyboutravens said:

The Ravens never have any cap room.Why do we keep talking about it? We give away good players every year.

We keep talking about it because we actually do have cap space. This year we have the option to keep all of our players if we wanted to. Usually we lose 3-4 starters and look for cheaper replacements but not this year. We don't have much but we can make a move if it's worthwile.

 

We have don't have cap space, unless Flacco, Webb, and Monroe take a pay cut. Pitta needs to retire.

We have room to sign a few cheap vets on their last leg, but that is about it.

Ramsey is not worth trading up for. He isn't even going to play CB in the NFL. He is much better suited, and more of an impact player at Safety, with the ability to move all over the field where he can line up at Nickel CB from time to time.

If we wan't the best CB in the draft, stay at 6, and let Vernon Hargraves III fall into our laps.