TXRavensFan

1. The irony of most of your post is that I already posted these exact same things in a post several months ago. 

 

2. The other aspect of this that you're overlooking. is in the NFLPA's "official rebuttal", they clearly stated that the NFL has the and has had the phone records. I'll repeat that just so its not misunderstood... according to the NFLPA, the NFL has and has had the phone records.

 

Welcome to a standard argument in a court of law.

Let me further clarify so that you don't misunderstand, "phone records" is not the same as "text messages."

If we take this quote from Brady's statement, "We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone" it's clear that what they provided the NFL was simply a list of numbers and times that text messages were sent/received, without the actual messages themselves (which were actually requested).

The chain of events therefore looks like this:

- Brady is informed that investigators want him to testify and have access to relevant text messages

- Brady destroys his phone and sim card, then refuses to provide access to the texts

- Brady waits until just before the appeal hearing to inform the NFL that the phone was destroyed (conveniently long enough ago that any text messages retained by his carrier would have been purged) and then send a lists of "phone records" to the NFL (which were not requested).

- Brady claims that he cooperated by sending an "unprecedented" amount of personal information to the league, in an effort to combat the "non-cooperation" charge, and claim that he used extraordinary measured to try to obtain the actual texts.

What really doesn't add up is that if, as Brady says, "...my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward...", why would his team then "[exhaust] every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time."?

Just my own opinion, but it sure smells like an empty gesture to show the courts in a future lawsuit that he really did cooperate, all the while fully knowing that the actual information requested would never be retrievable.

1. And that would matter... if this was a legal case that involved innocence vs guilt, which by all accounts just simply isn't relevant. Like I've said plenty of times already, not inconceivable to think Brady could go into court and admit guilt and still get a suspension reduction or elimination completely just by arguing the fallacies of the investigation.

 

2. That's great and all, except that's irrelevant too. The NFL probably won't be challenged on why they should have given him a harsher punishment than $25K... they'll likely be challenged on how excessively larger the punishment was than $25K. While its great that the NFL writes its rules vaguely enough to appear to set a $25K MINIMUM standard, keep in mind its not actually the minimum standard at all based what the NFL has actually done. In two most recent cases, they simply issued warning letters to teams that violated NFL protocol with footballs. 

 

In fact, based on the legal analysis I've seen, part of the NFLPA's argument is that there is NO rule in the CBA that applies to players in that regards whatsoever. I personally doubt that holds much weight, but they have a much better understanding of the CBA to begin with.

 

So at the end of the day, what a defense team would argue and ask the NFL to do is provide their basis for determining that Brady's conduct was so detrimental to the league that it warrants a four game suspension. A union-supporting judge like David Doty will probably look at the previous suspensions handed down for incidents that were classified as "conduct detrimental" and try to decipher similarities and differences there. 

 

3. LOL, Brady's is disproportionate to that one because Brady plays football and Ray Farmer doesn't. The suspension of Farmer was literally laughed at by media outlets, because it suspends a FO position for regular season football games when they largely have ZERO responsibility. If you actually wanted to punish a GM, they'd actually suspend him for something like an offseason, where GM's do most of their work.

 

its not a coincidence that the time of the year where we pay the least amount of attention to Ozzie Newsome and Eric DeCosta is precisely between September and December/January. Their job is largely done by that point.

Unfortunately, because you continue to disregard the seriousness of spoliation of evidence, your entire response is largely irrelevant. You also continue to look to precedents for a situation that is without one. As far as legal analyses go, I hope you read the one that Tanked linked to, as it is one of the most recent and includes the destroyed cell phone into the author's opinion.

To continue Tank's quote:

"Since Brady purposefully instructed his assistant to destroy his phone on the same day of his interview with Ted Wells, I would fully expect the NFL to seek spoliation sanctions. These sanctions can include the outright dismissal of a case, monetary penalties, or the dreaded adverse inference jury instruction. This means that if Brady or the NFLPA sues the NFL, the judge could instruct a jury that they are allowed to draw an inference that the evidence contained in Brady’s phone would have been unfavorable to his case.

In most circumstances, an adverse inference is akin to an outright dismissal of the case since the jury (or sometimes the judge) is allowed to assume that whatever evidence was destroyed would have made the destroying party look awful.

There is no doubt that the NFL’s legal team will pursue an adverse inference. In Goodell’s decision letter, he states:

there was an affirmative effort by Mr. Brady to conceal potentially relevant evidence and to undermine the investigation. Mr. Brady’s conduct gives rise to an inference that information from his cellphone, if it were available, would further demonstrate his direct knowledge of and involvement with the scheme to tamper with the game balls prior to the AFC Championship Game.

Finally, in footnote 12 of Goodell’s decision, he hints that Brady was acting under the advice of his attorneys. If true, his attorneys could also face severe sanctions, and even potential disbarment, if they actually ordered the destruction of highly relevant evidence.

At this point, both the NFL and Brady appear set for a lengthy court battle. However, Brady’s chances of success are drastically reduced due to his willful destruction of evidence. Even attempting to gain an injunction becomes exponentially more difficult as Brady’s likelihood of success on his overall claim is clouded by the lingering civil sanctions for destroying his phone."

From Rotoworld.com (citing the Baltimore Sun as their source):

 

Ravens WR Kamar Aiken "consistently" practiced with the first-team offense at spring workouts, ahead of Breshad Perriman. The Ravens aren't handing a starting job to Perriman, who reportedly "needs to become more consistent" after showing a propensity for dropped passes in OTAs and minicamp. Perriman also struggled with drops at UCF. Unlike the Panthers last year with Kelvin Benjamin, the Ravens seem hesitant to throw Perriman into the fire. This is a camp battle to watch throughout August.

 

Somehow I don't remember Perriman being reported to drop so many balls at the OTA's and minicamp...

 

(Well, Rotoworld isn't the embodiment of trustworthy info either - though most of their news are usually valid.)

As I recall, the only report of drops was during one minicamp session, but that he caught everything else.

So, just so I understand you....

 

Deflating footballs, by the rulebook, is a standard $25K fine (although others who have been caught manipulating footballs have simply gotten warnings). And lying and failing to cooperate with a lengthy investigation of an offense that warrants a $25K fine (ironic in it of itself) warrants a four game suspension and an additional $1.975M fine?

 

Naturally, you can sort of see why a judge or another reasonable person might have quite a difficult time making that leap...

Destroying the phone is considered spoliation of evidence, and is a pretty serious deal in the justice system. I have serious doubts that a judge will look upon it as trivially as you seem to think.

As noted in Goodell's letter denying the appeal, it goes far beyond simple failure to cooperate, and moves the infraction to an area without precedent when applying the punishment. Brady's boneheaded move basically wipes out the argument that the penalties you describe (and it's including, but not limited to a $25,000 fine) hold any value as precedents in this case.

Also keep in mind that Ray Farmer was given a 4 game suspension for texting the Brown's bench during a game. Explain to me how Brady's punishment is disproportionate to that one?

Some more fodder for thought from football outsiders:
 
Scott Kacsmar ‏@FO_ScottKacsmar

Who throws the deepest deep ball? Sorted by average air yards. Maybe RG3 & RT can learn from PM & AR. Quicker throw

What some people seem to be forgetting is that this is a labor issue that would be taken to court - the federal court will not be re-trying the case to determine Brady's guilt or innocence, so different levels of "proof" are largely irrelevant. Federal courts are notoriously reluctant to hear such cases once they've been through arbitration.

In essence, any court case would be Brady arguing that the arbitration was not fair and did not conform to the procedures outlined in the CBA and accepted when he signed his contract or that the NFL violated its own rules in the process. Most commentators agree that this is basically his only chance of winning such a case, and I'm not so sure how good the odds are, since the CBA gives Goodell the ability to determine punishments AND act as an arbitrator.

Why are there 3 threads on this topic? Kinda confusing.

where you see that at?

Maxx Williams is the best TE in this years class, but I wonder where he rates against Tyler Eifert, Zach Ertz, Eric Ebron, Austin Seferian-Jenkins, & Jace Amaro from 2 previous classes.

I looked this up a few months ago out of sheer curiosity. Based on his NFL.com draft grade, he would have been tied for second highest rated TE in the last class, tied with Troy Niklaus, and only behind Ebron. The previous years used a different grading scale so I couldn't compare.

Now that you mention it, I don't ever remember seeing Harbs step onto the field to try to trip up a punt returner......

No wonder he got an extension - not only is he a decent coach, but he also helps out on special teams when needed!

It'll go to court in time for the regular season and get settled in Brady's favor. $10 he suits up week 1.

The courts generally don't want to get involved in labor disputes, and the bar is notoriously high for a court to overturn a decision made by an arbiter. Brady would have to prove that the arbitration process was unfair, and considering the CBA gives the commissioner the power to hand out punishments as well as hear appeals, I can't see how Brady has any advantage (Goodell even authorized someone else to determine the punishment giving him even more "neutrality" in the appeal).

I'm hoping he does spend a bunch of money on lawyers to file suit, an injunction is issued for the suspension, then the case is heard and the suspension is upheld just in time for the start of the playoffs. That would be hilarious.

I did read somewhere that Cam Worthy was placed on the PUP list.

The criticism on Flacco is fair and ranking #10 is exactly where he belongs in my mind. The only questionable call is putting wilson ahead of him. Other than that the list and article are spot on. Anyone who thinks otherweise is a hometown homer.

Eh, the "if you don't agree with me, you're a big fat homer" argument isn't exactly how it works...

Anywho, regardless of what you think of the rankings, I challenge you to re-read the criteria used to determine the tiers and explain how the description of Tier 1 is not a summary of Flacco's career (at least since 2010, acknowledging that he was more or less a caretaker in his first 2 years). Then explain to me how a QB that in his 10 year career has only thrown over 3,500 yards 5 times, played in all 16 games 4 times, hasn't won a playoff game since 2010, and has never won a playoff game without a top 5 defense is ranked ahead of him, let alone meets the criteria for Tier 1.

I don't know, I just feel like Russell fell into a perfect situation for him to succeeded.  He plays for a team that has a dominant defense, he has a beast for a running back that has is known to control the game, and he plays on a gimmick offense that is pretty much custom built for his skill level.

 

I have seen him throw too many passes that had no business being complete.  He floats these balls up that should be intercepted or knocked away, but because teams are so worried about him or Lynch running the ball the DB is completely out of place to make a play

 

Just watch the first Green Bay game and than the playoff game.  In the first game the Packers defense didn't stick to their receivers and they got burnt.  But in the playoff game the changed things around and got 4 interceptions and should have won that game.  Seattle's defense kept that in the game and despite the fact that Russell looked like garbage 75% of the game he got all the credit for that win.  

What I find interesting is that the main criticisms of Flacco are even more true when applied to Wilson (depends on defense and a strong running game, inconsistent, doesn't put up great individual passing stats, etc). Thus, I am always amused when these lists put Wilson above Flacco. Granted, Wilson is off to a quicker start when it comes to the post-season, but Joe has demonstrated the ability to put his team on his back and ride his arm to a championship. Who knows, maybe Wilson is capable of doing so in the future, but as of now he hasn't had to (if ever the Dilfer analogy is appropriate in terms of what a QB is asked to do - not in terms of talent - it is with Wilson). This also brings attention to the fact that Joe has sustained this level of success for a much longer period than has Wilson, which should also merit consideration.

See below lol

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I really hope we don't keep 7 WR under any circumstances. This franchise has to get over the hump with young receiver talent and part of that is knowing when to cut bait. No more David Reeds, Deonte Thompsons, Etc etc '.

With Pitta expected to start the season one the PUP list, I can see them going with 7 receivers to start the season. Doing so, they can keep a guy like Waller from going on the Practice Squad, where I doubt he'd last more than a day. It will also give them six extra weeks to evaluate these guys before Pitta comes back and they need the roster spot. At that point they can decide who needs to go on the PS, or is even cut.

yes, there is plenty of yelling and testosterone on the field we all know that. but the article didnt say anything about yelling at nick because he got the ball stripped. it stated SSS was letting nick have it for walking off the field too slowly and gingerly after his mistake because he felt let down from the play, as hes been doing with all the rookies.

 

maybe i read a different article.

That was the impression I got as well - it was about Boyle not hustling off the field.  Part of the Ravens' culture is that they expect everyone to hustle at all times (e.g., running from drill to drill at practice).

I have my theory on our snub. I think it came down to the senior member of the owners club, Jack Kent Cooke, working over Tagliabue. In the end, it didn't matter ... it only delayed the inevitable.

 

I agree. I think one of the things that went under the radar during that process was that Jack Kent Cooke wanted to claim the Baltimore market for the Redskins, much like the Orioles dominated the combined market for decades. I don't know if the numbers have changed, but at the time Baltimore-Washington was the 8th largest market (if I recall correctly). I have no doubt that his influence with Tagliabue was a major factor in Baltimore getting passed over.

Good information on Maxx, but he was looking for a source about using Waller as a TE.

41%?!?!?! Crockett SUCKS...

Even Dickson is far better than gilmore.

He sucks and Dickson is better because Gilmore only lined up for 41% of the offensive snaps last year? That's just crazy talk.

Folks hating on my comment about Flacco not working out with his receivers is hilarious. But I played ball a long time. It's the truth.

Those workouts are usually a few hours over one weekend in the off season. Color me skeptical that a few hours playing a glorified game of catch has any influence on chemistry once the pads come on and the receivers have defenders in their faces.

lol......who cares if no one can actually prove the balls were deflated. Anyone with half a brain could tell bra*y was lying through his teeth at the press conferences. If he had nothing to hide, why would he lie? scum bag

Yeah, it's like #Gatetriots apologists point to the empirical evidence, which by nature cannot determine how the balls were deflated, and automatically claim there is no proof of anything. They ignore (or deflect) from all of the other evidence such as the deflator and his needle disappearing in a bathroom with the balls after they were checked, the texts, phone calls, and lying.

were currently 8m under the cap with essentially all of our current contracts locked down and ready to go, the only concern is how are we gonna pay one of yanda or KO and that likely wont come until next offseason, all of this extra space and we are STILL dealing with ray rices 9.5mil in dead money which will be off the books next offseason, also ngata has a few million in dead money lingering on our books i believe as well. 

 

our contract situation is so much better than the rumor mill would suggest when you consider all the factors, we could give tucker 4-5mil a year and still be able to re-sign upshaw and one of our guards next offseason when the double digits of dead money goes away

I think the issue he was bringing up wasn't about affording contracts for other players, rather it was about getting players to accept a deal that may be lower than Tucker's. I hadn't really thought about it, but it is an interesting thought.

For example, we just signed a veteran nickel/slot cornerback in Kyle Arrington for about $3M per year. Most would agree that in the current pass-happy NFL that a nickel corner is essentially a starter, so the question would be, if Tucker was making $5M as a kicker, how likely would Arrington, a virtual starter on defense, accept a deal that was $2M less than the kicker's?

I'm pretty sure that each position has its own market, but you can't help but wonder if such large contracts for kickers/punters might have an effect on the lower end of the market for other positions that see more significant playing time.

I have a feeling we could end up taking 7 receivers. And with that you'd have Smith, Aiken, Perriman, Brown, Butler, Waller and Camp all make it.

3 TE's, 2 QB's, 3 RBs, 1 FB, and 8 OL. That's 24 offensive players. Leaves 29 for the defense and ST's.

 

I have a feeling that with the competition at WR, Harbs will be looking to keep 7 at the beginning of the season. I also think Pitta will start the season on that IR designated to return list and when he comes back, they'll keep the 4 TE's and drop one WR who perhaps isn't performing up to expectations. If the WR competition is tight, this will give the coaches some extra time to evaluate them.

When do we get to see the results?