BOLDnPurPnBlacK

Never a bad idea to go with a Temple kid (well at least the ones coached by Matt Ruhle)... Really like all of em this year honestly... reddick, dawkins, hairston, jahad thomas as an UDFA. They will play hard, they will be intelligent kids that can get on the field early from a mental perspective... and regardless of size they hit/can take the physicality of the game. I honestly wouldnt hate if we went to the Temple well 1-2, and then like 4or5,6orUDFA.

Reddick played DE but is considered undersized for a prototypical edge rusher. Has incredible speed, burst, and athletic traits. Is a monster playing in space. Probably has the athleticism to shift inside as well. Range, pursuit, tackling ability, change of direction... the physical traits to drop into coverage although he wasnt asked to do it a ton at Temple... so everything youd want in an ILB with the added bonus of being a dog as an edge rusher. Some dont think he can be an every down rusher, but that versatility is very intriguing. Id be super happy with him at 16. Could be the answer to both our starting ILB spot and our need for more pass rush on 3rd downs. Takk is purely and edge guy. Raw ability for days, and can be a wrecking ball at times. But not technically proficient at all. No hand use, no rush plan, no real counter moves or tool kit. Also doesnt really bend well. But his burst is prob 2nd to none, and he just doesnt stop working. Most of his production comes from being relentless or just beating the tackle off the jump. Prob a bit more upside as a pure pass rusher than Reddick, but far less of a finished player now and doesnt have the versatility. Will need work to become anything more than a situational rusher.

Sounds about right. With the athleticism he showed at the combine, i think mid-2nd is about right. Should go right in a grouping with Zay Jones, Juju, Kupp, somewhere in with those guys.

So if the Timmy trade affected your stance... are you maybe doing your evaluations more needs based than originally thought? I get theres an aspect of need that we all consciously or subconsciously impart on prospects; but if its truly BPA, where need only comes into play for tiebreakers and things of that nature... how does McDowell just now enter the convo? Jernigan was always going to be gone next season, so i guess i just dont understand how that suddenly opens the eyes. I appreciate the honesty @JoeyFlex5 on Voch playing a big part... i sensed it was, and we all have our guys we're partial to, trust more, or have great influence. And a guy who brings tape along is always better... but you can still focus on/show the positives and choose to ignore the stretches of poor play. Im trusting my own eyes, and original opinion on the guy... in that if you could somehow get his best all the time you wouldnt even have a shot at selecting him at 16; but there's also a very real reason that he will be. And i just cant get behind that volatility at 16, especially with the confidence that 1-2 other players i expect to be there. In an almost worst case scenario... where we're looking at him, John Ross, OL, CB, etc... without trading back he wouldnt be the worst of the those options for sure. But im not walking away hyped about any of them.

Yea, i like his potential. He plays bigger than his size, has ball/cover skills bc of his past as a WR and S. He was a D1 recruit (Arizona I think) that got kicked off for off field stuff, and then really turned his life around. Love those kind of stories. And hes got a mean streak. Not like he played a ton... we're talking a couple snaps here, cpl snaps there. But he had a FF against NE, then logged 4 D snaps against PHI, 6 in the biggest game of the year against PITT, and then got the start and played the majority of our snaps (42) in the meaningless CIN tilt. Played well on ST all year... and actually logged more DEF snaps than Correa last year overall and at ILB. Had 10 tackles and a FF in 60 snaps on defense. Not a great sample size, but good production. And its telling that he was used the most in the most important games. I really like this kid and think he's got a shot to play a role this year, and be another UDFA that really sticks here. Prob as a ST leader early, but that just forces his way on the field more and more.

But it begs the question... did you just watch the tape for the first time in the last week? And if not, why all-the-sudden is he a darling for pick 16? The tape has been the tape since the season ended. If you just watched for the first time on someones suggestion, then ok. But if not, what changed?

I know he finishes with authority... but he didnt finish enough for me. The ND tape is great, and that was against some top talent. Which begs the question why isnt more of his tape like that? It's clear with his lateral agility, strength, and tool kit he shouldve been tearing up almost anyone across from him. I know it's not that simple, sometimes assignment, game plan, off days, etc... dictate differently... but for a guy who flashed that level of dominance where top talent look like rag dolls i would just have expected to see it more often or in bigger situations. And in terms of production i dont mean just getting into the back field or getting after the QB... there's a lot of instances of him settling for just riding a block instead of shedding and making a play, or over pursuing himself beyond a play... i dont see nearly as many stops as he puts himself in position to make. I mean, putting himself in position that many times is part of the battle, and can be a positive; but i expected more. He looked great when Mich St was making their run to the title. Consistently dominant for them. Maybe the key piece to that great D. Then this past year when the team wasnt that good, he didnt take a step forward at all. I get being bummed that your team stinks, but when your draft position is at stake and you're being talked about as a potential top 5-10 pick, youd think that would be enough. The fact that it wasnt worries me. When it comes to personality issues, or what get deemed personality red flags, poor interviewing, etc... im not going to guess at what the cause of them are; like its just as simple as better environment. We dont know that and no one does. Look if the FO thinks they can turn the light on for him and hes worth it at 16, great. I'll eventually get behind it just like i would with John Ross. But when several teams are quoted as saying things like "Awful, awful interview...." "worst interview we did" and things like that.... cause for concern. And guys who dont recognize their own flaws/issues and seem to get offended by them, not motivated, worry me. Maybe they dont become concerns in the NFL... but to overlook them or write them off is risky biz. Nkemdiche may not be the best or exactly like for like, but he was a guy who flashed dominance... had top 10 talent almost unanimously, dropped and the Cards were applauded in the media for taking the risk bc of how big it could pay off, and he couldnt get on the field. Thats the risk. Yea it can go the other way and when it pays off its great. Im just not comfortable with that risk at 16. 28-32? Sure. Not 16 for me.

I agree. The talent/upside is obvious... but I need a sure thing at 16. Not to mention... when suddenly the hype on a guy doesnt start until a cpl weeks before the draft, but hes been a clear and obvious available option the whole process -- what suddenly changed? He hasnt put any new tape out. Hasnt tested differently. Most likely someone in the media put out a new opinion on him, or film session with their take.... and now everyones taking it as gospel. His physical ability was always apparent. But too many question marks, and far too inconsistent imo. Want no parts of that at 16, and doubt we will. Maybe as a trade back, or trade up in the 2nd. 16's just far too rich for my blood.

Marshon Lattimore Sidney Jones Marlon Humphrey Quincey Wilson Tre White Gareon Conley Kevin King Chidobe Awuzie Ahkello Witherspoon Fabian Moreau Teez Tabor Adoree Jackson Howard Wilson Treston Decoud Shaquill Griffin Cordrea Tankersley Des Lawrence Damonte Kazee Jeremy Curtrer Up until Howard Wilson I think they all have some combination of coverage skills, ball skills, size/length and athleticism that projects to possibly becoming a #1. Howard Wilson on have some traits or characteristics that can project but need serious work in some area to ever become that. And then there's a few guys like Corn Elder for example who I really like, but don't see ever becoming a #1 but could be really good in their niche role, like in the slot for the Elder example. And its seeming possible that someone like Witherspoon, Moreau or Sidney Jones could be around early 3rd where we get a guy who has 1st round talent/traits that's fallen bc of injury or inexperience. I would actually prefer waiting to take a CB til the 3rd if any of the guys listed above Wilson are still on the board.

Well if the trend of having met with our 1st round pick continues... kinda narrows down for us, at least thus far. I'm sure a few more visits are likely to happen, but as of now the trend suggests we're taking one of: Taco Charlton Takk McKinley Tim Williams Haason Reddick Mike Williams John Ross Zach Cunningham Caleb Brantley Pat Mahomes At least in terms of the guys frequently mocked in the 1st. From there we can probably narrow it a bit further. I imagine this list will have a couple OL and CB added to it before all is said and done to add to the intrigue. Not to mention we'll find out later about unreported combine meetings that took place at the hotel, and other more informal things like that which technically constitute meeting with a player.

I can't get on board with McDowell. I see the natural talent and ability, but at 16 he's just too boom or bust for me. And I'm not basing that solely on the questions of his personality. Guys with his athleticism and dominance that don't put up the production you expect scare me. I don't see a finisher or a guy that maximizes his ability. Maybe if the board falls wrong for us, and there aren't any good trade back options... But id completely unsure of what we're going to get with him.

Dion Dawkins the OT/G from Temple... he wouldn't name the team... but at the combine a team exec asked him how long can you go without blinking? Then they tested him on it. After he did it... they were like, are you satisfied with that time? Or do you want a chance to go again? They told him the record was something absurd... like 20-30 minutes.... and I can't settle on whether they were testing his competitive nature - his desire to improve/try and beat the record -- or seeing if he was easily manipulated to do something stupid against his will.

Late to the party but is someone legitimately suggesting we trade pick 16 for Lael Collins? Gonna stay outta this thread.....

Onwuasor** pretty sure is how it's spelled. And to your point he was earning defensive snaps as the year went on. Yea it still requires a big leap to project a breakout year for him, but it's not solely based on the training camp skirmishes like the other poster suggested. If a rookie UDFA Safety that's a converted WR is getting defensive snaps at LB on a top 10 ranked defense in the NFL -- the kid is a football player. Period. I picked him as my surprise guy to make the roster and have an impact last year, and I'd say he accomplished that. And honestly, barring Foster dropping to us at 16 or us signing an obvious FA upgrade, Onwuasor is probably in the competition with Correa and Levine for that starting ILB job along with a draft pick or UDFA. Dont be completely shocked if he wins it either.

Ok cool but that's not what you said in your first post which is why you're getting responses. You essentially said you don't want Williams bc you can't win SB's if you have a great WR on your roster. Yes you can, first things. Even if that ridiculous measure were true... we have no idea if Williams will meet this totally subjective measure of great you're using. I'd take Barnett over Williams. Foster too if there. Either of the top 2 safeties, OJ Howard, maybe Fournette, etc.... But I'm def not missing out on Williams for fear he's a "great" WR which excludes us from winning SB's to take a potentially lesser player at another position -- which is certainly what it sounded like you meant in your original post.

Ok and Mike Williams is not "great" (whatever your definition is, since a guy who's on the top 10 for catches isn't great)... and we don't know that he'll ever be. Id be ecstatic if we took him and he became as good as guys like Boldin, Ward, Colston, Wayne, etc... So hooray we can still pick him and not be excluded from winning the SB. If he starts getting too good, we'll just make him stop so we still have a chance at winning. /sarcasm your argument is bs.

Yea... I think it is true to say that you don't NEED a great WR to win a super bowl, but not to the extreme of saying that great WRs don't win Super Bowls. Brady's always had a number of weapons - Gronk as you pointed out but also Edelman and last year Hogan played a big role, Bennett and they just got Cooks. Denver had Demaryius and Sanders. Even Seattle - Baldwin really started breaking out. You think about our SB and the plays that got us there... the Pitta/Boldin vertical seam TD catches in the red zone, Jacoby in Denver, Joe's ballsy audible to throw to Boldin hot for that 1st down conversion with the game on the line, Pitta's multiple huge 1st down catches while getting drilled... Torrey stretching the field. Our loss to NE the year before came down to a WR not making a play. Otherwise we're in back to back SB's. We always cite Joe's crazy run... but it also coincided with his weapons playing the best they have since he's been here. And Williams, imo, fits exactly what Joe's missing. That Boldin/Pitta 2012 presence of being open when covered, making the crucial tough catches in crunch time. Theres players id take over Williams, but certainly not passing him up just bc you can get away with not having great WRs.

I think the guys guaranteed to go before us are: Myles Garret Jonathan Allen Jamal Adams Malik Hooker Marshon Lattimore Solomon Thomas Then there's a group that I'd say are almost guaranteed to be gone, but there is a small chance or odd scenario where they could fall and one is there (and almost no way more than one of these would be available): Leonard Fournette OJ Howard Rueben Foster Mike Williams Then a group that very well could go ahead and are prob top 15 type players, but have a decent chance to be there: Derek Barnett Corey Davis Haason Reddick And then finally the group of players (x-factor types or guys who the media are all over the place on, are raw but have elite traits, elite talents with red flags, reaches for need, injury concerns, or guys that someone top 15 falls in love with) that could be the reason a guy from group 2 is available or makes multiple from group 3: Mitch Trubisky, Deshuan Watson, Patrick Mahomes, Deshon Kizer Gareon Conley, Tre White, Marlon Humphrey Dalvin Cook, Joe Mixon, Christian McCaffery Jabrill Peppers Ryan Ramczyk, Forrest Lamp, Garret Bolles, Cam Robinson Takk McKinley, Taco Charlton, Tim Williams John Ross

I've heard a cpl rumors that we're among a small handful of teams that really like Harvey Langi, LB from BYU. Started as a RB in HS and at Utah and then switched to defense to try and get on the field more. Transferred to BYU after his 2 year mission. They apparently stunted his growth by making him play DE which he's clearly not built for, but once settled in to ILB he was really playing well. Has ideal size and as a former RB he's got unique movement ability for the position... footwork, agility, change of direction and vision. He can really cover and play sideline to sideline, but his instincts are pretty bad having only played a handful of games at LB. But I think he's a serious consideration as a late pick for us.... if not drafted he'll be a very high priority UDFA. Could be the next in a long line for us that makes a serious contribution and eventually starts. He's got that type of upside for sure.

I have no idea whether they go offense or defense. Just depends on who's there. If someone like Williams, Fournette, OJ Howard, or maybe even Corey Davis is there... i could see us going offense almost regardless of what defenders fall (unless of course somehow a guy like Garrett or one of the safeties does). I could also see them going with Barnett, Reddick, Foster if available. I could also see trading back and grabbing a RT.,... or pass rusher.... or CB. More so than any other draft i can remember; i literally am not leaning toward them doing any one thing. I could see them trading up for, staying put, or trading back and taking literally anyone at any position

And im done with this convo now. theres just two sides. and we'll see. If Ross lands on a team that has an established WR that is either a Top 10-15 type guy (Green, Julio, AB, Odell, etc...), already has their big bodied, possession guy, or even is a powerful running team with a good/great OL... then i bet he will be a very explosive play maker. But even in that scenario i would almost guarantee that most of his production in the NFL will be big, chunk plays. Not reliably putting up 5-10 catches a game, and making chain-moving or Red Zone plays. He will not succeed if he's counted on to be the #1 guy in a traditional sense... making plays all over the field. Which is what we need.... and using pick 16 on a WR who will not be that is a waste.

It's not useless when the DB's are garbage and dont have the ability to jam at the line. I'll go back and rewatch... but most of his red zone TD's that i saw were a CB playing him near the line, in isolation, and doesnt reroute him at all; ross gets a clean release and it's essentially a race to the corner on a fade. QB knows Ross' speed so just puts it far enough where the only person that can get to it is Ross. So either an incomplete pass or easy TD. And if they gave him a little space, he'd take 2-3 steps and break inside on a slant. Just a race to the inside. Yea you have to have suddenness to use your speed effectively in the Red Zone - which Ross does have -- but its all still tied to speed. Not to mention Pac 12 defenses arent exactly great... and not exactly known for being big/physical defenses. Which is what i imagine Ross struggling against to be anything other than a deep speed threat. The game against Alabama is a perfect example. He couldnt do anything bc they know how to play him and have the athletes a CB, S and LB to take him away. 5 catches, 26 yards. Bc they got physical with him, let him get his short catches and then hit him. He's racing for separation on short passes, not route running for separation, which is why the CB was there to make the tackle right away on him.... bc on short stuff you just cant get to your top speed -- which he relies on for most of his space. Which again, its great. Im not knocking the guy. Speed is dangerous in the NFL. And hes got it in spades. Its not just a 40 time, you see it on tape. Maybe the fastest guy ive ever seen on tape. And thats going to give him opportunities, absolutely. But im confident he will be far less consistent in the NFL, because he doesnt have the other skills to defeat any type of coverage put against him. And, what i like about him we're already pretty good at in the passing game. You have to be balanced, diverse, able to do different things well and win in different ways. Whether its getting short yardage carries and also having a guy that can break big ones. Whether we're talking D and having OLB's that can get after the passer, but you also need guys who can set the edge be disciplined, get off blocks and tackle. Youve got to have receivers that can get open with speed and make big plays... but youve also got to have size and be able to make contested catches bc no one in the NFL is getting open for easy catches regularly. THATS what we need. Especially if we're gonna run the ball alot more, and if we're not going to have a dominant OL. Doesnt make contested catches, is not good at working back to the QB if he doesnt win his route initially, struggles to get off against physical CB's (which is a lot of teams in the NFL), and idc what anyone says his short/intermediate routes are not that good. Theyre good for a burner, but theyre not good. Hes Will Fuller... would i love Will Fuller? Yea. Prob not at 16 though, and id much rather have Hopkins. Fuller becomes a whole heckuva lot better when you have Hopkins already. We dont. Hes Desean.... would i love Desean? Sure. Not at 16, and hes a whole lot better when hes got Mike Evans, Garcon, Jordan Reed, a Maclin or someone like that to make his speed more dangerous. Speed and size/over-the-middle-beasts are a killer combo. I mean Torrey/Jacoby and Boldin/Pitta. That was our magic combo. But Torrey/Jacoby along was awful. I doubt Torrey/Jacoby/Wallace wouldve been great. I dont think Ross/Wallace/Perriman is anywhere near as good a combo as Williams/Wallace/Perriman or even Davis/Wallace/Perriman... maybe even Wallace/Perriman/Juju. It's balance. Its ability to attack different levels in different ways. Even if Ross was a superior player I wouldnt want him, because the end results wouldnt be superior in my projection.

Then what else does?? And either post clips of him displaying these traits, or point me to the games/plays where he's showing them. Because i havent seen instances of great hands when he's actually in tight coverage or going over the middle in traffic. I havent seen him using better than just, good, route running. I havent seen anyone that tried to really jam him at the line where's he had to work through it. I havent seen him create instant separate -- it always takes 10 yds or more when he finally gets up to his speed. His separation comes from the speed. Either just getting out in front of guys, or causing guys to bail early and he just stomps on the brakes. I mean its obvious theres a line in the sand that neither side is going to cross. But, i see a guy that if he doesnt have elite speed his quality route running becomes maybe serviceable. Def not good enough that its something he can rely on to get open all day. And if he doesnt have the elite speed to get either the big cushions he so often does or the separation he does from flat out accelerating past DBs, he doesnt have the hands to consistently make contested or difficult catches. If he doesnt have the speed, you just put a physical corner on him and you dont even let him get into his routes. No way he's Edelman if hes a 4.5 guy.... bc Edelman is a technician, and is extremely physical. Whether fighting off the line, taking the hit while making a catch, or breaking tackles to get the tough YAC.... Ross does absolutely none of that. Edelman is thick. Ross is a twig.

It's not relying on a WR to make miraculous catches, in the sense that they couldnt produce or be effective without it, but it brings another dimension to your offense. We're talking about the type of WR thats open even when he's not. The type of guy that when it's 3rd and 8 in the 4th qtr and the D has 7-8 guys dropped in zone and there's nowhere open to go with the ball, that'll demand the ball no matter what, go up and get it. The guy that dominates in the red zone. A guy that makes 50/50 balls 75/25 or 100/0. When you have that guy.... no you dont have to rely on it, but when you know he's capable of doing that 1-2 times a game then you have confidence when the games on the line and maybe take a chance you wouldnt have otherwise. You dont need to see as big an open window when throwing his direction to have the confidence to rifle it in there. And hes not talking about throwing bad passes over a guys head or forcing diving catches. We're talking about the when the WR's running a crossing route or slant, instead of having the perfect precision that hits him in stride without breaking pace (like Brees, Brady often do) maybe misplacing it a little bit so that it hits him right in the numbers instead of out in front of him... so he has to slow down a bit and maybe box out the CB's arm trying to make a play to break it up. Also, there are times when you just cant throw the perfect ball. The D plays great coverage and the typical windows just arent open.... and maybe you have to place the ball a bit high, down low, or behind him -- a spot where the DB cant make a play but you give the WR a chance to. Regardless of how good a QB is, these types of plays/situations present themselves A LOT in the course of a game. Especially with a QB like Joe who's best asset isnt perfect accuracy on the short/intermediate stuff... but absolutely can make the impossible throws or fire a ball into the tightest of windows 15-20 yards down field. So, theres nothing wrong with thinking that this team is missing that type of guy. The one who can make the body adjustments to available in those small, imperfect windows.... the one who will go up high, down low, reach behind, box out, or take the hit and still secure the ball. The one who knows hes open no matter what the Defense does. Ross can be and very may well be a play maker. But he doesnt present those qualities. Perriman might learn to offer some of that, but mostly down the field -- not in the traffic and over the middle. Wallace doesnt offer those abilities. We have big play ability. We have guys who can take a 1 yd pass and turn it into an 80 yard TD. We have guys who can get open 15-20 yds down field with speed. With Ross we have more of that, maybe even better of that, but we dont have what we're missing in those tight, crunch time situations that often decide games. And if you want to be a ball control, balanced, physical running team... then you almost NEED that missing element. Because you're going to put yourself in a lot of 3rd and 4's with the blitz raining down where Joe will have to just fire a ball to a hot route that may or may not be open and just trust he'll catch it. We're going to be in some close games thatll come down to needing a TD from the 15 yd line with time expiring, and needing a guy that can fight through the crowded end zone and catch the ball while taking a big hit.... or when needing a FG to tie in the 4th while at the 50 yd line and needing 15 yds to get into FG position, the guy who will get to the boundary and let Joe just throw it over his shoulder while he boxes out the CB and makes the catch falling out of bounds. Joe's biggest strengths are his arm, getting the ball deep, making throws others cant all over the field, and being BIG TIME when the game is in the balance. We need a WR to match those qualities. It's obvious that his best connections have been with guys who showed him those qualities (Boldin, Pitta before injuries, Heap, SSS). And Mike Williams is the epitome of that. John Ross, for the good qualities he does have, he is not that.

Ok, but the injuries are real. And if you acknowledge they're a reason not to take him above 16... why is it so wrong to not want to take him at 16. He has the injuries for that reason. He's like 5'11", 180lbs. With bad knees. Speeds the first thing to go with bad knees. Take away the speed, and the tools arent there to be a #1 WR. I dont think anyone's hating on him. I recognize he's a good player and may be a play maker. But when i look at everything outside his speed, i see average to pretty good. So if you take him high, you're placing a pretty big investment at that speed -- bc it is what will separate him in the NFL and make him truly dangerous. His ability to separate, get YAC, make big plays - all tied to that speed. And a guy with 2 bad knee injuries already, makes that big of an investment unwise imo. If you hit the jackpot, great.... if you dont you used the 16th pick to maybe get a Tyler Lockett type player, and if the injuries show up and sap his speed you have a guy who likely isnt serviceable in the NFL. If he didnt have 4.2 speed, and more like 4.45-4.5 speed - no ones touching him in the top 2-3 rounds.