BOLDnPurPnBlacK

Yea but my point was not only are the starters better at ILB but also for everything you can say about Brown you can say about Elam who was a 1st round pick. And then Id take Orr and McClellan over Trawick and Levine at this point. Basically I pick Mosley over Hill. smith over Lewis. Elam and brown are a basic wash up til now... Maybe Elam a bit worse bc his lack of contributions have actually hurt the team where Browns are just disappointing. And id take Orr over Trawick, McLellan over Levine. If you feel differently on any of those points I an interested to know which ones and why. And if you don't, then there really is no argument to be made for ILB being a bigger weakness. Now an Elam bounce back and playing up to his 1st round status could tilt the scales and a Brooks healthy return and continuing to develop where he left off might be an equalizer if not push it completely over to the safety side. But until we actually see it on the field in game situations I have to stick with my guns

I get what you're saying and agree to an extent... But the comment on Flacco's presser and the media adding hype is a bit off. Flacco did say Butlers racked up probably 1500 yards in a 3 day minicamp. That's what he actually said and that's all that the articles attributed to him as saying. Flacco used the word "incredible" and Engram described Butler as "unbelievable" in regards to his level of play during the offseason. That's some pretty strong and lofty praise - and hype coming straight from the mouth of his QB and position coach. Neither one came anywhere near as positive when describing any other receivers play so far. So, to just give your standard coach speak for everyone else, and then to go out of your way to praise Butler with such powerful word choice (incredible, unbelievable) - you have to infer that Butler really did stand out far and above what anyone else did. But any inferences about that equating to predictions of Butler being able to put up similar numbers over the course of a season were made by you - not constructed by the reporter(s). I could understand where you're coming from if the article made point a and point b and nudged you toward connecting the dots... But "point b" I.e. Butler being able to put up a 1,500 yard season was never made or even hinted at. So the hype machine isn't the media, in this case it's the reader.

Did anyone else see from the sessions notes today that Zach Orr has been getting most of the 1st team reps at ILB with Mosley out? What does that say about Arthur Brown and his development? I mean, I knew he's been underwhelming and reportedly struggled early on to grasp the defense, but part of me (maybe wishful thinking a bit) thought him not seeing the field much was due to being stuck behind elite talent and his lack of contribution to special teams. But now, we're seeing an UDFA guy in his 2nd year getting reps ahead of him purely based on defensive ability. This isn't an active roster decision where you take Orr over Brown because he can play ST's... This is who the coaching staff views as the primary backup on defense at that position. I wonder if McClellan is ahead of him too? For a highly touted 2nd round pick who we traded up to select it's disappointing. On college film his instincts, coverage ability, sure tackling, and closing speed just jump out at you. I just can't figure out how none of that is translating at this level. He's on the small side... But that can't be the only reason. He must be struggling that much with the mental aspect in being able to understand the defense, read the offense and just process information at this speed. I'm sure his confidence is shot too... Hate to think it but at this rate the guy may never see the field - at least in purple and black.

What do you mean he hasn't shown much? He's been a starter with Elvis Dumervil on the roster.... that's saying something. His contributions may not show up in the box score or stat sheet - and if he hasnt shown you anything i get the feeling that those are the only places you're looking. That's not to say he's been incredible or anything, but hes been exactly what we've asked him to be. He's a bear who almost always wins at the point of attack, is one of the best edge-setters in the league, has called out the defensive alignments at times, etc... Him doing the dirty work is what allows a lot of the other guys to shine. Suggs, Doom, Mosley, Smith, Ngata, McPhee, etc... they all benefit from having a guy like Upshaw. Mosleys huge tackle numbers last year are supported by Upshaw because he doesnt allow plays to bounce outside so they end up right in the mits of Mosley. He is the new JJ, who was a huge part of our defense for years... and if you saw his retirement speech then you saw the importance JJ had to this team and the organization during his time here. You may not recognize what Upshaw's importance is, but I can guarantee you that the coaching staff, the FO, and his teammates all recognize it. I think he stays a Raven bc even though he is very good at what he does, that skillset is undervalued in todays NFL. That's good news for us because we'll likely get to lock down a premier, edge-setting, run stuffing mauler for a pretty reasonable price. My only worry is that he actually does break out in the pass rushing department with the extra opportunities he's likely to receive this year. I think he can do it, it's just that he hasnt been given the chance because.... well why would you keep Dumervil off the field in pass rushing situations? Even if Upshaw has shown he can be a really good pass rusher, Dumervil is top 3 in the league.

Superbowl or Bust.

Yea and don't get me wrong I don't think our safety group is weak, just weaker than others. And of course injuries could change things.. You can make that same argument for safety. If Lewis or hill gets injured were weak. If hill gets in trouble he's gone for the year. So there's concern at safety too. Plus if one of Suggs or doom goes down I'm more confident in Upsahw than I am in Elam, Trawick or Levine at this point.

We're discussing weakest position group this year headed into the season.

Don't see a single argument for LB over safety. Yea Hill can be great and Lewis should be an upgrade but behind them it's pathetic. At LB we have Suggs, Doom, Mosley and Smith. Our starters at safety can only HOPE to play at the level of any of those guys. Upshaw is better than anyone behind the starters at safety. McLellan has been a starter, and we haven't seen Arthur yet. We know Elam, Trawick and Levine don't bring much. So if the argument for Lb being worse is depth can you please show me how the depth at safety is so much better to make up for how much better our starting LBers are. Quite honestly our starting LBers are better than our starting safeties and so is the depth... So don't see any argument how our LB group is weaker than safety esp since Lewis is an unknown as well at this point.

McLellan who was a starter in 2012 and Arthur Brown a 2nd round pick. Just bc we haven't seen them play doesn't make them weak backups. And the fact that we haven't seen them play is a testament to just how strong we are there. Daryl is arguably one of the most underrated players in the league, and CJ Mosley is.... Wel CJ Mosley. I don't see how can you say ILB over safety when the safeties behind the starters... Elam, Levine, and Trawick are all terrible and we've seen them be terrible. And our starters at safety are worse than our starters at ILB. So our starters at ILB are better than at safety. And we've seen McLellan play well, Orr has serious potential and Arthur Brown is an unknown. Just don't see any argument for it.

While you're right that WR and TE are depending on a lot of question marks in order to be successful. But Aiken and Brown caught everything thrown their way last year. Their opportunities were just limited because SSS and Torrey were in front of them. I fully expect that at least one if not both can match Torrey's production if given the same opportunity. Aikens been very impressive so far in OTA's. Basically if just one player, most likely Perriman, can replace Torrey's production and value, then we'll absolutely be better off at WR then last year. Because after that everyone else has an additional year of experience or is a new rookie addition. At the very least were definitely more talented at WR. So even if it is our weakest position, it's only bc of how strong we are everywhere else... And it will be better than the group that was the best offense in franchise history. Weakest maybe... Something to be worried about? Nope. And at TE I think Pitta will play and play well by the mid point. And Gillmore has been arguably the most impressive pass catcher this offseason. So calling him only a blocker just isn't true any more. And Maxx will be in a great position where he won't have the load on his shoulders early bc Gillmore is goin to be so effective, so he'll get put into good positions going against weak safeties or Lbers that he can exploit to have success. Worst case scenerio he's a really good backup for us this year - best case he wins the starting job which means he'll have had a great camp/preseason with success on the field. Again, it may still be one of our biggest weaknesses on paper bc of the unknown factor, but even so I think we'll easily be better, more versatile and deeper at TE than last year. And it could just as easily become one of our greatest strengths if Pitta can return to form, Crockett is as improved as advertised and Maxx achieves his potential we could have the best TE group in the league.

I don't know that we need him to to get great production from our TE's. Pittas ahead of schedule and Gillmore has been catching everything and a beast in the red zone. I think Maxx will be afforded a year to develop and will have a few plays built into the play book that he really excels with. He'll make some plays but hopefully won't be counted on to carry the position group. I think he'll end up being the 3rd tE by week 4-6.

I think the playoffs go through Baltimore this year. Indy and Baltimore top 2 seeds as I think the Pats and Broncos take a step back. I'm not surprised by all the praise were getting nationally. I truly believe we have the deepest, most well rounded team in the NFL. You can't point to a legitimate weakness on this team without bringing unknowns like injury into the conversation. Our oline is among the tops in the league with 2 great backups. We have a deep and diverse RB group. Our WRs though young and unproven are immensely talented with the potential to explode. Joe is Joe. If Pitta can return to form we might have the best TE group in the nfL. Our dline is going to be incredible with 2 emerging talents that will be considered among the tops at their position in Williams and Jernigan with great depth in Urban, Canty, Guy, Tyson, KLM and Bilukidi. Our linebackers might be the best in the league even with McPhee gone. Our top 3 corners if healthy are one of the best groups in the NFL with a few possible young gems developing like Melvin. Safety is arguably our weakest group but Will Hill might be the best young strong safety in the league and Lewis could really be a huge improvement. If that's our biggest weakness - were in amazing shape! This is quite possibly the most well rounded deep team I can remember us having... And aside from a couple aging key pieces (Suggs, doom, Daryl and SSS) we're incredibly young. This is a hungry, well coached team that arguably should have been in the Super Bowl last year and I think we're going to be much better this year while several top contenders have gotten older or lost a few key pieces. Bring that Lombardi home boys!

Torrey's not here because he wanted and got a bigger offer than the Ravens made. The only relation between Torrey not being here and cap space is that clearly the Ravens didn't want to tie up the amount of cap space it would have taken to keep Torrey a Raven. I'm sure they wanted him back, but not at what he cost. If the Ravens felt he was worth the 5 year $40 million that he got in San Fran they would have matched the offer. You can call it opinion but it's a fact that he's not here. They felt they could at least replace what Torrey did if not improve at the position for less money with players already on the roster and in the draft. On the Brandon Marshall point - that was pure speculation and analysts just connecting dots to try and find a logical landing spot once it was clear he wouldn't be in Chicago. The FO clearly had a plan for addressing the WR position and they executed it. They didn't feel bringing Torrey back was a priority especially when his price tag exceeded the number they valued him at. Right player right price as always.

That's because they dont know Jimmy yet. They will. PFF does more than just entertain the idea, last season they flat out said it. I dont have a subscription, but if someone that does could find the article(s) from last season prior to his injury please post. And why does it matter if fans outside of Baltimore would entertain the idea? If his play and statistics back it up then what else is there? And clearly opposing QB's know about Jimmy, he's been one of the least frequently targeted corners the past 2 years. You likely wont find a huge number of people outside of Denver (other than those that really pay attention to football) that would put Harris among the top CBs in the league; yet he was hands down the best in the league last year. And the fact that Talib entered this conversation tells me that your perception of best CB's has more to do with name recognition and past memories than what players actually played the best on Sundays in 2014.

Taking one game and one assignment from each players career as the standard for comparison is a pretty silly metric. Jimmy has limited Brown, Green, Julio Jones, Megatron, Demaryius Thomas, etc.. On a regular basis when playing healthy. Health is the only legitimate knock on him at this point. In almost every metric - yards per target, yards per completion, total completions, TDs when in coverage, YAC, QB rating when targeted - Jimmy was rated among the top 3-4 in the league over the past 2 years.

Jimmy when healthy the past 2 seasons was playing like a top 3 corner in the league capable of erasing the leagues best receivers on an island. He was playing on par or better than Revis, Sherman, Peterson, etc... Torrey, while I actually think was better and more valuable than he's been given credit for recently, never played like or had the talent to be a top receiver in a good passing offense, let alone be considered among the best 3-4 receivers in the league. So, no. Their talent levels are not anywhere close to each other. Jimmy is vastly superior at a more important position.

I disagree entirely. I think they have an idea of how they want to attack a certain defense during the week... But come game day they use what works and the plays are called on a down by down basis. Adjustments are made according to how the game is going. I guarantee they don't get together and say ok, their run D is weak so were going to run 55% of the time and pass 45%. And then during the game late in the 4th were at 52% run so, oh shoot let's run the ball 4 times in a row so we hit 55%!

I agree that Urschel has the requisite skill and intelligence to play and play well at either guard or center. My comment was just giving my opinion that I don't think Urschel taking snaps at center during these OTAs is an indication that the team has plans on him taking over there next year. I do think they want to see what he can do there to see if he can be the primary backup at guard and center just because they covet versatility and it opens up flexibility in building the roster. But mostly I think it's just because with all 5 starters missing he's the best option at center for the offense to actually be able to run smoothly until the starters return. Again, it's not that I don't think Urschel can play center or that he's not the leading candidate on the current roster to take over at center eventually. But I think need and circumstance make it more likely that he's taking over at guard next year. I feel like the team would be outsmarting themselves to try and move Zuttah to guard and slide Urschel inside. With a hole likely opening up at one guard position, I think continuity will take precedence... With Zuttah having started 2 years at center working directly with Joe and Urschel having starting experience in big games at guard it seems counter intuitive to suddenly shake it up and move Zuttah out to guard and Urschel at center when the line as a unit was among the best in the nfl with Zuttah at center and Urschel having shown in a rookie season he could adequately fill in at guard. Could they flip and still be effective? Sure. But it's a question mark while we know and have seen it is a strong line in it's current incarnation. Now, if Myers shows he can start at guard in the NFL that's where I could see Urschel making the move to center. Myers replaces KO, Urschel replaces Zuttah who next year can save the team a few mill in cap by being cut I believe. But if Zuttahs on the roster I just don't see it. With all the turnover he's had, I don't see the coaching staff overthinking things and taking away something that's been a consistent and successful part of Joe's game.

Hopefully the whole hands argument will be put to bed soon as I fully expect him to continue to make difficult catches in traffic like he's shown so far in camp. Already has some good chemistry with Flacco which is great. He's already starting to stand out as one of the top players at a deep and talented (although young and inexperienced) position group - keeping in mind to that he's a week behind everyone else after missing week 1 while at that rookie symposium or whatever it was. We'll get a better idea of who he is once the pads are put on and hitting is allowed but he's already creating the matchup problems we drafted him to create. His speed is forcing our guys to play off, in which case he's showing the ability to work underneath and catch balls in traffic... They're having trouble jamming him at the line bc of his strength and size and when they have he's fought through and turned the speed on to get over the top for the long ball. I think week 1 we see Perriman and Aiken on the outside with Smith Sr working the slot. And Gillmore sounds like he's been dominating OTA's as Joe's favorite target especially in the red zone. Boyles been making noise too. This could be our most talented, diverse and deep team at the skill positions in franchise history. And I think in Perriman we've finally found our #1 wr that can win at every level. I'm excited - really excited!

I think the offense will be better this year. Not only do we have more talent at the skill positions, but with Castillo and returning all 5 starters on the line we should be able to carry over the success of Kubiaks run game. And I think Trestman is a better fit to get the most out if our passing game. If Pitta is healthy we have legitimately 3-4 weapons at TE with Gillmore really shining so far. Then our WR's sound like they're having a field day. Sr will do his thing. Aiken is catching everything. Perriman they can't jam at the line, is getting over top with his speed and is showing ability to work the underneath stuff when they give cushion to protect against the deep ball. The knock on his hands seems like a distant memory at this point. This will be our best offense in history.

I know this comment was from before the draft... But us drafting WR and TE in the 1st 2 rounds shows that the FO felt we needed an influx of talent because there wasn't enough.

Nope nothing defensive about it. So, your argument is that starting snaps in a playoff game only hold as much weight as snaps at center during OTA's when 4/5 of the starting line is not in attendance?? Sorry, stopped reading at that point.

First, I never said he wasn't our future center... Just that the articles cited did nothing to prove that point. Second, I think it means they're exploring it as an option. But with the Yanda/KO situation on the horizon I still think Urschel's future is more likely at guard. Someone has to take the snaps with Zuttah out and if you're going to experiment with a guy at a new position, OTA's is the best time to do it. It will mean more if when Zuttah comes back Urschel is taking snaps at center with the 2nd team offense instead of rotating in at guard. I think the truth is, they want to see what he can do there because we covet versatile lineman. If Urschel can be your primary insurance for both guard and center, you don't have to carry as many Backup O-lineman on the 53 and game day active roster which frees you up to keep a player at another position. And I think one of KO and Yanda is likely gone next year while Zuttah will be under contract so out of necessity Urschel's immediate future is more likely at guard. Long term it will depend on where need is. And isn't Jah Reid starting on the line in OTA's? He's not our future anything. They need 5 guys to start on the line and Monroe, Yanda, Zuttah and Wagner are all not there. Someone who knows the offense and the protections has to play center. When your options are Hurst, Jah, KO, Jensen and rookies it seems less of a projection of the future and more of the team filling a necessity with the least bad option.

Arthur Brown??? No way he breaks out unless Daryl Smith or Mosley gets hurt because if not there's no way Brown even sees the field.

Still a WAYS off. He's 3rd among active QBs behind Eli Manning and Philip Rivers. Favre's record is 297 I believe. Flacco is sitting at 112. It's pretty much unattainable. Joe would have to play another 11 seasons and 10 games (regular season) to break the record. So he'd have to play until he's 41 without missing a game to take the record.