Tru11

think his drops where more a mental issue with lack of concentration or already thinking about what to do before he caught the ball rather then it being a case of not attack the ball at its highest point or using his body to make catches.

Neither comes close for sure, Taylor was a phenom but he was definitely a 3-4 OLB, he revolutionized the position.

hmmm my bad then.

thought they ran 4-3.

Dumervil not a HOF consideration?  ORLY??  He has as good of a shot as Suggs does and Suggs is a lock even if not first ballot.

 

Dume has 10 less sacks than Suggs but came into the league 3 years after him and being just a year younger.  He has 4 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros, NFL Pass Rusher of the Year, Sack leader 2009, and had 17 sacks last year with an eye on th record this year.  He's on par to at least match Suggs' career production so you can't include one in the HOF without the other.  

 

It also needs to be said they that they each have a quite a few seasons of football left in the tank.  I could see either/both playing until 35-36.  Neither has shown signs of slowing down even after major injuries (Suggs-AchilliesDume-Pectoralis).  No way there's any serious consideration as to how they DON'T make it - only pewwrhaps as to WHEN...if they don't start slapping women around.

 

Are they Lawrence Taylor?  No, not yet.  But their production to this point is close enough.  If Suggs managed just 7 sacks for the next 4 years (he's averaged 9) he'd have 2 more career sacks than LT.  If Dume averages just 8 for the next 5 years (he averages 10 to date) he'd have 2 less than LT.  If they do better than 10 sacks in any given year they'll likely get selected to Pro Bowls and could realistically each still see up to 8 or so in their careers.  REMEMBER:  Pro Bowl and HOF selections are largely popularity driven contests as much as being stat driven.  In a sack driven league, they'll garner enough respect and good will to gain both.

 

I just can't believe there is any real doubt on this topic.

LT is in a league of his own.

neither suggs or doom come close to him TBH.

dude was a 1st team all pro for 8 straight seasons.

10 time pro bowler in 10 straight seasons

defensive rookie of the year.

3 time defensive player of the year.

MVP.

2 SB winner.

sacks where not even counted during his rookie season.

not to mention he was getting those sacks as a 4-3 OLB and not a 3-4 OLB.

One tenth of one percent does not really separate players when it comes to combined totals of having a hand in plays made from tackles/sacks. Dumervil averages 7.5 yards lost to opposing teams on sacks while Houston averages 4.5 yards lost to opposing teams in sacks. Unless you show me facts in numbers on snap count of both players on passing plays as well as whether they rushed or fell back to cover a running back going out for a pass. Giving me guesstimates does not cut it. I am giving you facts I have found so far through reputable NFL stat web sites. I don't really care about anything but pass rushing ability and Doom is a better pass rusher. Nothing will change my mind, especially guesstimates, no disrespect intended. 

you brought up the numbers not me.

you said chiefs only saw 529 pass attempts against them.( i did not come up with this number)

this means houston only had 529 snaps to get 22 sacks IF he played all the snaps.

these numbers give him an avg of 1 sack per 24 attempts.

simple math.

its a fact dumervil had 17 sacks.

in order for dumervil to present a better avg he would had to have gotten those sacks in only 391 attempts which would have given him 1 sack per 23 attempts.

you yourself said dumervil played 608 snaps.

you yourself said dumervil was a role player as a pass rush specialist.

now ask yourself how probable it is that out 608 snaps only 391 where to rush a passer.

its your numbers with your method from your first reply in this thread that pretty much shows that houston is the better pass rusher.

i used the numbers you provided with the method you used.

i did not make anything up.

you are free to stick with your believe even though you pretty proved its wrong yourself with the numbers you provided and the method you used at first lol.

bolded part says enough about you though so im done wasting my time.

There were 529 pass attempts against the Chiefs with Houston playing in nearly all of them, there were 584 pass attempts against the Ravens and Doom most likely saw a lot less passing plays because he only played 603 snaps. To say that Doom rushed for 90% of his snaps is far stretch as if teams don't try to trick Ravens with running plays while Doom is in game or try passing plays with Upshaw in the game. Opposing teams plan plays according to who is on the field on the other side and will try to use plays that expose Ravens weakest spots, am sure Upshaw saw plenty of passing plays as teams were gunning for the secondary when injuries tore apart the secondary. Your last paragraph makes no sense to me, bottom line for me no matter how you try to use your logics is that Doom is part time, and Houston is full time and yearly salary comparison is a moot point because of snap counts. To further illustrate Doom is a better player, out of 603 plays, Doom had 17 sacks and 36 total tackles (Assist and Solo), he had his hand in 11.37% of plays. Houston had 22 sacks and 68 tackles which translate into having a hand in 11.47% of plays. Dumervil is 5 years older so it is not realistic for Dumervil to be an every down player, same with Suggs. Speaking of Suggs, Suggs has only 7 less tackles than Houston in nearly 200 less snaps. Houston had just one great year in sacks and all of a sudden, there is salary comparison to Dumervil which is ludicrous because Dumervil and Suggs are both better players than Houston, Houston plays more is why but when using percentages, it is obvious both Dumervil and Suggs are better players. Heck, Ray Lewis used to be an every down player and Lewis was a target from several offensive players and he still gets twice as many tackles as Houston. This whole thing started because our Ravens reporters was trying to make salary comparison bigger than it really is without taking any consideration into account. Dumervil is a better pass rusher without a doubt. 

 you do realise houston % is higher right?

so how can you argue doom is better?

you also conveniently left out houston cause 2 times as many fumbles as doom?

chiefs as a team only saw 529 pass attempts against them which means IF he played all of those snaps he managed to get a sack in every 24 pass attempts on avg

ravens like you said saw 584 pass attempts and doom played 603 snaps.

in order for doom to present a better avg then houston he would had to get his 17 sacks on 391 pass attempts.

now you and everyone should know that doom did not play only 391 of a possible  584 attempts.

so this pretty much settles who is the better pass rusher and better player is not even a debate.

an all round every down player who is an all pro is better then a role player.

both where pro bowlers...

there was at most 1 second between the catch and the ball getting knocked out.

game clock does not lie since it shows 24 seconds left at the time of the catch and still when it got knocked out.

i doubt less then a second is plenty of time to catch and secure a pass while turning around after running at full speed with 2 defenders closing in on you.

to each their own.

some rather blame the player for not being able to do something pretty unreasonable while others are not afraid to admit the defender actually made 1 heck of a play at the right time.

I had a feeling that someone would try to shoot it down as I had the combo snaps in mind too but using combo is misleading because Upshaw is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first. That precious one or two seconds of Upshaw doing his job on passing plays cost him sacks. There are plenty of plays where opposing teams ran running plays to counter Dumervil/Suggs being on the field. My mentioning a part time player and full time player is the reason that it is unfair and misleading to compare salaries. I still think Dumervil is a much better pass rusher than Houston. Houston has the freedom to sneak through holes while Dumervil has to straight up go through offensive tackles which is much more difficult. Consider that Chiefs played top 15 passing teams 10 times and the Ravens 7 times means Houston saw a lot more passing plays. I am not going to go into PFF any further. I still stand by taking Dumervil/ Upshaw combo over Houston any day, hands down, they win more regular games and playoff games than Houston. 

Houston is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first to lol.

He does not get subbed out for somebody else.

If upshaw was not on the team then Doom would have gotten those edge setting snaps and thus his snap count would have been way higher then it is now and thus his avg would have been much lower.

also the chiefs gave up the #2 least passing yards behind only he hawks but gave up the #28 most rush yards which completely debunk your theory that houston had more chances to rush the passer.

the ravens however had the #4th best rush defense but when it came to pass defense they where ranked #23.

the team that saw more pass rush snaps would easily be the ravens.

what you are doing is counting houston edge setting snaps and drop in coverage snaps as pass rush snaps which is just wrong.

Doom portion of snaps he played the run is probably around 10 % of his total snap count while him dropping in coverage would be less then 1%.

Houston portion of snaps he played the run is at least 40 % of his total snap count and is probably higher and his snap count dropping in coverage is probably around 10 % of his total snap count.

So  for doom you could argue he spend at least 90% of his snaps rushing the passer while for houston its probably closer to 50% of his snaps.

the difference in % simply has to do with 1 being a part time pass rush specialist while the other is a every down player.

Also im pretty sure teams win games not individual players.

by your logic elam is better then eric berry because elam wins more plays lol

or forsett is better then charles because he wins more games.

heck why not take canty or jernigan over watt since they won more games.

why not take aiken over julio jones while we are at it ....

yeah- not that I think it would have mattered. Pretty sure he was destined to miss that kick. It also set up the 2012 run with the rematch and ray's last ride etc.

i think if he had enough time to line up his shot he probaly could have made it.

in this situation he hurried everything which screwed with his fundamentals and lead to the miss.

lol  Play of his life?  He swung at the ball and it was there to be hit. Evans left it out in front of his body exposed. He had plenty of time to tuck and protect the ball, he didn't do it. It's something he probably practiced since he was a kid. Horrible mistake.

 

http://www.playsportstv.com/football/football-wide-receiver_tucking-away-the-ball

 

Also from a basic youth coaching tutorial;

 

"Once the receivers have caught the football, they must correctly tuck the ball to protect it from defenders. Tucking consists of watching the ball into the hands, and then locking it in a protected position using the hand, forearm, and elbow to squeeze the ball into the body. While coaches differ in the exact number of pressure points involved, it is imperative to have pressure from each of those three areas."

 

"The catch is not complete until the ball is tucked away. Receivers should tuck the ball every time they make a catch—even in the most basic warm-up drills in prepractice. Demanding the tuck at all times instills discipline in your players, and adds crispness to your program. Tucking the football on every catch should become as automatic as breathing.'

exposed in front of his body?

this was roughly 1 second after the catch and tenths of seconds before it gets knocked out.

seems to me he is in the process of tucking it like he was taught and not being careless like you are trying to make it out to be.

Pressing the ball against your gut with two hands is not protecting the ball and is not the fundamental that is taught. He left the ball exposed so it could be hit rather than tucking the ball and wrapping an arm(or both arms) around it. Basic football.

he had 1 arm around it lol

he was in the proces of securing it even further.

you do realise the catch and knock out happend in less then 3 seconds right?

also you totally gonna ignore the CB making the play of his life?

maybe they didn't want to give him more time to think about .

who cundiff?

I hear ya, but it's a basic fundamental skill that shouldn't take thought, especially for a professional. Just a bad, bad play.

evans actually had the ball tucked to his body with what appears to be 2 hands on it.

https://youtu.be/yIH-GrnnPVM

if you go to the 30 second mark you will have the best view of this catch.

@ the 32 second mark it appears the ball is against his body with 2 hands on it tucked away.

seems pretty fundamental to me.

also like i said before you seem to forget the defender also made a fundamental sounds play by managing to actually hit the ball and not the player which forced it to come out.

had he hit the arm of chest chances are the ball would not come out.

the best way to get a ball to come loose is to hit the ball and not the player.

just as charles tillman who made a living with making these kinds of plays having 42 FF as CB lol

TBH this is more of a case of the defender making 1 hell of a play rather then the receiver being careless with the ball.

Worst play by far in that game was the rushed missed FG that came later with 15 seconds left and us still having a TO.

i still cant believe why we did not use the TO and instead rushed cundiff out there and rush the kick.

with the clock winding down just call the TO and make sure to get it right.

What where they planning to do with that TO and 15 seconds left lol

JAh reid has been average/below average..generally a disappointing pick.

 

Elam has been an abomination.

 you are still going to blame him for losing games we actually won     

seriously you have taking exaggerating to a whole new level.

Why are we still talking about Houston's salary? With Dumervil involved? They are two different players, Dumervil is part time, Houston full time but get this, I would take a Dumervil/Upshaw combo any day over Houston. Let's compare, shall we? Houston played 1,033 snaps last year, got 22 sacks. Dumervil played 603 snaps, got 17 sacks. Houston got 5 more sacks but also played 430 more snaps. Let's average that out, shall we? Houston has 1033 snaps played with 22 sacks which is an average of a sack every 46.9 plays. Dumervil played 603 snaps and had 17 sacks which is a sack every 35.5 plays. Who would you rather have? A player who gets a sack every 35.5 plays or a player who gets a sack every 46.9 plays? Dumervil, on average, is way better than Houston when it comes to sacks and throw in Upshaw as part time to stop runs and we win games. That's why we made the playoffs and KC didn't. Team efforts, not individual, wins games. It's ridiculous comparing salaries when snap count differs widely.

those numbers are inaccurate since you are comparing a starter to part time player.

if you want to know who is better you should also take into consideration upshaw snap count.

its pretty reasonable to assume that not all of houstons 1033 snaps where spend rushing the passer.

a pretty fair amount he was probably stopping the run or dropping in coverage which most complete OLB do.

example suggs.

houston 1033 snaps with 22 sacks is a sack every 46.9 plays

doom/upshaw combo 1124 snaps with 17 sacks is a sack  every 66.1 plays.

now if you want to truly know who is a better pass rusher on avg you will have to find the stats of how many both spend rushing the passer.

PFF probaly has those i think.

houston is a complete olb in the prime of his career while Doom is pretty much a pass rush specialist.

also if i remember correctly the broncos still owned Doom some money at the time we signed him which kept his price tag down.

then their is the age difference as well.

i dont think you can compare them at all and then suggest Doom was a bargain.

Perriman can be an elite WR but he needs to work on his hands, route running and most important his concentration.

he has all the tools to become 1.

well wasent lee evans pretty much injured that 1 season with us?

he only started 2 games.

also the defender made 1 hell of a play knocking the ball out of evans hands on the catch.

think alot of people are over looking that TBH.

sterling moore certainly deserves some credit of breaking up that TD with a tremendous play. on the ball.

probably not a first ballot but he could get in.

he started as a pass rusher only but became a all round OLB which lead to his DPOY.

he has several pro bowls and some all pro selections and he is a SB winner.

if he stays injury these coming 2 seasons and plays up to his level , he should get some more pro bowls or perhaps maybe add another SB to his resume depending on how the teams plays.

 I think Tank is probably more correct on this issue, and that you're misunderstanding his argument. I'm pretty sure he's not saying that QB performance is entirely dependent on the receivers, but rather that the quality of receivers has an effect on passing stats. Therefore, your example is a bit off base.

 

If I understand correctly, he's not implying that a back up QB (Schaub) would have the same stats as the starter (Flacco) just beause the targets are the same. Rather, given Flacco's talent as a baseline/constant, he would have better stats throwing to a group of highly talented receivers than he would throwing to a corps of replacement-level receivers (and the same would hold for Schaub). However, because Flacco is more talented than Schaub, he'd probably have similar/better stats throwing to replacement-level guys than Schaub throwing to all-pros.

 

To get back to the original example, taking Ben's talent as a constant, I doubt there's a question that he puts up better numbers with Brown, Bell, Wheaton, and Bryant than he does with a bunch of scrubs.

 

The way I see it, while a good QB can elevate the game of his receivers, a good receiver can also elevate the game of his QB. The last factor that needs to be taken into account is the offensive scheme in which the QB plays. I doubt anyone would argue that a QB in a pass-oriented scheme would put up better numbers than if he played in a run-oriented offense.

 

Football is a team sport. Even so-called individual passing stats will depend on at least the above three factors: talent of the QB, talent of the receivers, and offensive scheme.

he is saying that if flacco was on that team playing with those receivers in that scheme he would put up better stats.

better then 4952 yards 32 TDs and just 9 INT.

ben is just some old sluggish QB who got carried by his receivers.

for the record calling a  player old and sluggish is not a compliment.

he is totally downplaying Ben level of talent as a QB because alot of people think he is better then flacco at this moment.

its the typical ravens fan argument that if a QB puts up stats its because of his receivers/scheme/whatever . but if flacco puts up stats its because he is great despite his receivers/scheme/whatever.

Its really no shame to admit ben is better at this point in their careers.

Ben is older.more experienced, at the peak of his game, had the luxury of having the same OC and 2 of his top 3 targets have grown with him.

Flacco is younger, still improving , no idea where his peak is and with some luck will have the same OC and receivers to grow with.

In 1 or 2 seasons chances are he will be surpass ben as the best QB in the division and if brady and manning retire probably in conversation for being the best QB in the conference.

talent level of a QB has everything to do with it.

how good the QB is will pretty much decide how much production he will get out of the receiving core.

that is a fact.

if this was not the case then there would not have been a drop off from the starting QB to the back up.

both have the same  quality/number of capable receivers but 1 is clearly better then the other and thus 1 will put up better stats then the other.

your argument pretty much suggest that schaub would produce just as good as flacco since both have the same quality of receivers as the talent level of the QB plays no part when it comes to stats.

suggesting every QB throws the same is just ludicrous.

Well stated. I cannot stand how it's always the receivers are better on this team, that team etc. But we apparently need to have 3 first round receivers and a 1st round TE.

maybe flacco cant make wrs better so he needs top notch talent lol.

im with you that i cant stand those arguments either.

worst argument is by far : win are a QBs achievement and losses are because of the team or someone else on the team.....

I can think of 3 off the bat

 

2 vs the bengals in his rookie season

and 1 vs patriots this DP

 

yup he cost us. That tackle on amendola..I COULD have done better. It was appalling..it was a 3rd down and it would have forced a field goal.

 

Might have changed the complexion of the entire game.

lmao that stretching it quite a bit.

we won 1 bengals game in his rookie season so how you can blame him for a loss is pretty weird....

the other bengals game it was tied going into the 4th and then  the offense threw 3 INT on  4 possessions with 1 going for a pick 6.

how cab you pin that 1 on elam or even the defense lol.

that pats game is also a huge stretch cause when elam made a mistake it became a tied game in the 2nd quarter.

we when into HT with a 7 point lead so its hard to argue  elam destroyed our team confidence orso...

we even went up 2 TDs before everything fell apart and its ridiculous to blame elam for the 2nd half collapse while flacco threw 2 picks, brady picked on melvin and the refs botched that abuse of the in eligible substitution stuff.

that trick play or that lafell TD had far bigger impacts not to mention that whole drive that the pats abused that now banned rule lol.

heck if we got a FG instead flacco throwing a pick we would only need a FG to win the game and that 2nd pick probably would not have happened.

you got to come with way better examples then these lmao

It's hard to say any one player besides the QB could single handedly cost a football team games, but Elam certainly has a lot of bad plays that that led to points. Probably at least half a dozen plays when he completely blew a coverage as a rookie leading to a huge gain or TD. Last season it was shoddy tackling that really did him in. He had a couple awful missed tackles against the Pats, one on a scoring play.

nobody is denying elam had bad plays.

thats not the discussion.

sami said elam single handedly cost us at least half a dozen games and i want to know which 6 or more games elam cost us.

i cant think of 1 but feel free to pinch in and point me to the games in question.

Whether Torrey has a good season in Santa Clara kind of depends on Boldin. If Boldin has a good year, Torrey wouldn't get much. You have to believe that the Niners think that he is more than a One Trick Pony, which is pretty much what Baltimore fans think. His best stat from last year is how many PIs he drew, not his catches. Perriman is noted for drops (sound familiar Torrey Smith fans?) and I don't suppose that he will completely shed that reputation. On the other hand, he may pick up as many PI calls as Torrey did, what with his speed and Flacco's arm. All things equal, Perriman is the better player but this year the odds favor Torrey.

his best stats last season where by far those 11 TDs.

thats 40% of flacco TDs right there lol

That was good for a shared #10 spot among all receivers including TE and such.

There where only 9 receivers who caught more TD then him and the difference with 8 of them was no more then 2 TD.

the next best person on the ravens was steve smith who had 6 TD.

BTW those 11 TDs are the #2 best mark in ravens history only behind michael jacksons 14 TD season which was in our first season in baltimore.

Matt Elam has single handedly cost us at least half a dozen games .

 

Thats pretty impressive of a ''worst player of all time'' resume in just the space of a couple of years.

 

Lots of these other guys where just invisible.

 

Matt Elam is very visible..for all the wrong reasons.

 

We knock michael huffs first and pretty much only game vs the broncos. 

 

Quite frankly thats what elams been doing for two years.

what games did he single handedly cost us?

you're way too caught up on that, that wasnt the point. I was just illustrating that 840 yards is not the fantasmic feat you make it out to be. Posting 840 by week 9 was obviously a best case scenario, but again...not the point.

 

you saw "a lot" of starters, not "all starters."

John Brown was no starter, Riley Cooper was no starter, ALlen Hurns was no starter: Kenny Stills, Markus WHeaton, Wes Welker, Jericho Cotchery...plenty of non starters there dude, aint no gettin around that.

you asked for the last time a non starter posted 48 catches, i provided the answer with proof.

and now you're moving the gola posts. You said he would have to be a starter, not "start at some point."

Plus the list also does a great job of demonstrating that the reception count isnt every thing. Brandon Marshall had 61 cathces and only came out with 721 yards, for instance.

 

you can believe what you like, but that doesnt mean it will come to be.

We have yet another offensive coordinator who likes to put the ball in the air more than any of the previous holders of the job, and yet another void at Wide Receiver which could easily lead to another continuous rotation in the starting spot oppposite of Smith Senior depending on who stands out. All of who will be playing with a quarterback reaching the apex of his career and who now has one of the best o lines in the league to help.

There's a first time for everything, now's an excellent time for the whole Wideout corps to stand up for once, its easily the most talented overall group we've ever had.

you are the one who brought it up.

now dont back down and turn it around saying that is not the point.

hurns started 8 out of 16 games

brown started 5 out of 16 games 

cooper started 16 out of 16 games

stills started 7 games out of 15 games

wheaton started 11 games out of 16 games.

wes welker started 8 out of of 14 games.

cothery started 13 out of 15 games.

plenty of none starters yeah right lol

non starter means 0 starts.

lets take brown since you mentioned him at he has the least starts.

he had 48 rec for 696 yards and 5 TD  with 14.5 avg on a whopping 102 targets.

thats with him starting 5 games.

now you wanna tell me that perriman is going to put up better stats starting 0 games?

Let me remind you that my point was he has to become a starter, your point was he does not have to be a starter to put up numbers.

now show me a player who did not start a single game who produced big.

For the record: i was talking about a non starter on the ravens TBH since that is the team in question and its where Perriman will have to show he can do it without starting.

edit: also to the bolded part in red.

i suggest you read my very first reply to you and then specifically the 3rd sentence.

its the #37 reply.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure all of those guys started at least 10 games and only three had less than 60 catches for the entire season. 

47 of the top 50 players in terms of yards had at least 60 catches, so it's not easy to do...

yeah i dont know who he is talking about when it comes to non starters putting up huge stats.

even so i dont see how a non starter on the ravens can put up those stats.

we dont have a history of that happening at all and i doubt trestman is going to change that.

its not unrealistic. also not impossible. just not likely. but fortunately for him, its also not a requirement.

last season. plenty of non starters that pulled that off on this list:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&season=2014&seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&d-447263-p=2&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_RECEPTIONS

but that's irrelevant anyway. there are many ways to skin a cat, your proposed model here is only one of them.

If Breshad didnt run a 4.24 40 and wasnt capable of breaking a 5 yard slant for a home run any time, i'd be more worried about his per catch average.

There were 41 guys of all shapes, sizes, abilities, and positions who pulled down 841+ yards last year. Its too easy to make an impact as a pass catcher in the modern game to believe that you MUST start in order to put up good numbers.

and Trestman is pass happy.

and even if Breshad dont start at the beginning of the season, all he has to do is knock a few out of the park when he gets the chance and he will be before long. Its not like he has THAT much competition. Aside from Smith Senior, there's no one else on our roster with the combination of skills and physical abilities to be a more dangerous receiver than Breshad. He has every opportunity to own this receiving corps.

if its not unrealistic or impossible im pretty sure you have a nice list of players who managed to get 3 catches per game for 9 weeks straight avg 30 yards per catch.

also im not sure about that list  you posted cause when i click it i see alot of starters on it and alot of players who arent a WR.

heck from the 41 players with more then 841 yards all where starters or at least started a few games which pretty much proves it cant be done with out starting at some point.

the only way he will outproduce torrey as a back up is if torrey gets injured or torrey gets demoted/suspended or anything like that lol

non starting WRs on the ravens rarely had any significant production so i have a hard time believing this year will be the first time that will change.