Ravensfan23

The two most important people with this pick will be Steve Smith Sr and Bobby Engram. Not sure how i feel about a WR with drop issues especially knowing how much that issue has bothered this offense the last couple years. But I like him. Honestly i'm a huge J. Strong fan and think many are underrating him but I'm happy the Ravens finally went into a draft with the intention and building around their franchise QB like we see so many other teams do so well. I like him as a compliment to what we already have and if a guy like Bennett can be added at TE, even better, but I'm not sure if he's the #1 WR, especially with the drop issues. But he definitely has great potential. 

 

Like him or hate him, I think with the down field attacking style of Trestman and he aggressive nature of Flacco, Perriman will have plenty of opportunity to win the hearts of Baltimore fans. 

I wouldn't mind bringing him in to play FS here. He's got a little bit of Ed Reed in him in terms of their playing style. Good tackler, physical, great in zone, leadership, he's rather short, has decent ball skills & instincts. Not in the same league as Reed or even close to Reed obviously but he could make a good center fielder if the FO doesn't have faith in Brooks getting it done as a rookie.

Not really directing this at you, more in general. Why do so many people seem to think it's just so easy for a CB to convert into a FS. Being a good FS is about way more then just playing center field and being a good tackler.

As far the CB situation, i like Franks for some reason. I was a big fan of his coming out of the draft in 2010 but didn't follow him at all in ATL. He's still pretty young and has good size/speed combo. I think he'd be a good option to compete with Brown and Ajax. I think who ever they sign will have to be a solid ST guy.

I don't think it is so much pigeonholing him as a blocking TE as much as people feel he was picked for his blocking abilities. Since that isn't really a strength of either Daniels or Pitta. Doesn't mean he can't catch. Most everything I read on him says otherwise.

My biggest thing with him is that his weaknesses are listed as route running & gaining separation. We have a stable full of WRs with those issues already.

But you have to understand who we are as team and what offense we are running now. He fits what we want to do. We aren't looking for a WR in a TEs body. Would that be great to have? Of course but if this offense is built around the run game, and clearly we know from last season if you don't have the blocking up front then your offense is dead, that's even more true in this offense, way not build your team to reflect the that? A guy like Gilmore is really valuable in this offense and I wouldn't be surprised if it was Kubes was the person who pounded the table for Gilmore and because we wouldn't have been able to trade up in the 4th we just took him with 3rd round comp.

I think his route running is a weakness because he just switched to the position 2 years ago. Watching him at the East-West and Senior Bowl, his route running wasn't poor imo he's capable of getting open as a inline TE and his huge catch radius allows him to present a target to his QB even when the LB has good coverage. The route running and separation issues shows up once he moves away from the LOS. Being with Pitta and OD will help him improve in this area.

In "this offense" Gilmore has a chance to be really good. With the PA that'll create space for him to work against a LB or Safety with a two way go. The easiest way to overcome poor route running is to put a defender in space. Then you add his catch radius, soft hands and ability to fight through people to the ball. I think he'll definitely be a playmaker.

Gilmore is a throwback with the way the position has evolved. When I first watched him I saw a lot of Heath Miller and then iread Gilmore say he emulates Heath Miller so it makes sense. If we were still in the same offense as the past 6 years I wouldn't be that excited about this pick but knowing the creativity of Kubes and how he uses his TEs, I seemingly get more and more excited about this pick each day.

He doesn't have great speed but he's really good at the short to intermediate areas. With a Playaction heavy offense Gilmore could be a beast. He's a developmental player in the sense that he's only been a TE for 2 years, but I strongly feel this guy could have a impact on this offense as a rookie if asked.

Exactly, and that's how he will be used primarily while Pitta and Daniels are on the roster. He could develop into a serviceable 2 way player, but he is not an explosive player. He's got size and soft hands so I think he will be able to contribute in the passing game, but there were better players on the board when he was drafted.

So because he was drafted to a team that has two move TEs that makes him a blocking TE? I'm sorry but that's laughable. That's like saying Mosley is nothing more then rotational ILB because more then likely he an Brown will split time. He's a better blocker then our two TEs but that didn't make him a blocking TE. What does him not being explosive have to do with anything regrading him bring labeled as a blocking TE? Hell Dickson was more explosive then Pitta and I know for a fact you aren't a Dickson fan.

Also there might have been better talent according to you but that doesn't mean that's what the Ravens draft board said. Crockett Gilmore isn't a blocking TE, he's a 2 way TE that blocks well and has areas to improve upon in his game the same as every other guy we drafted or anyone still on the board.

I guess the Ravens made a mistake drafting a backup TE in the first round of the 2001 draft because that's all Todd Heap was in his first year was a backup. I don't understand that. He's a blocking TE because he'll be asked to do that a lot this year. This guy could actually have a nice role in Kubes offense as a inline TE this year.

Why do people continue to call Crockett Gilmore a "blocking" TE? Maybe my view of a blocking TE is different from others. Billy Bajama my view of a blocking TE. Gilmore is a 2 way TE, there is a difference. He's a willing blocker but that's not the only thing he does. He lead his team in receiving yards before, he left the senior bowl as one of the best pass catchers at the TE position, I believe he was the leading receiver in that game. He was first team all mountain west conference, I doubt a blocking TE would receive that honor. Charles Davis actually called this guy the steal of the draft, not sure I'd go that far, but it seems to Mr that most who knock the selection of Gilmore only do so because they don't know much about him.

Well, lol...look at our biggest complaints from last year:

 

1. Poor positional coaching

2. Poor performance from the OC

3. Poor OL (which naturally led to the downfall of the pass and run attacks)

4. Not enough weapons for Flacco

 

We addressed those problems by adding:

 

1. Bobby Engram, to replace Hostler

2. Kubiak, who is one of the most successful and respected OC in the league (and brought a coach with him)

3. Brought back Monroe, traded for Zuttah, and told Oher to hit the road, as well as adding Urschel, who might start for us as soon as this year (if Wagner struggles, I fully expect Urschel to step in at OG and KO move to RT)

4. Brought in S Smith and Owen Daniels. No, that is not a long term solution, but it buys us a year to see what we truly have in Marlon Brown, and to see if Crockett Gilmore and Campanaro were good choices.

 

That is the reality of what we added, and while I would love to have seen even more done, it is still a lot. He and the rest of us who share his sentiments by all reasonable accounts fall under "optimistically cautious" and not "homers"

Wait a minute Mr. " I want blood and guts", I thought you said no logic in this thread lol.

I couldn't agree more. I'd also add the fact that Juice was drafted to be an offensive weapon not your typical FB. I was actually thinking of Wanger struggles you could move Zuttah to LG and have either Jensen or Urschel at C.

Also, yes we have a lot of good guys coming off injury and there is no guarantee that they'll turn to previous form, but at the same time there is no guarantee that a rookie will be able to come in and perform at a high level. So at this point adding offensive guys early in the early rounds would have just made certain people feel better, but it doesn't mean the offense would havebeen any better. And yes the same goes for the defensive guys we drafted.

Apparently no team in the NFL would take him in the 2nd.

That's why I don't get paid to do this, but sometimes teams just get off wrong including Ozzie. If the draft were a science then every team would get it right every year because there would be a formula to follow.

I'd take Moses every day of the week at pick 48.

Honestly I would too. But only reason i wouldn't is because he doesn't best fit the ZBS can he adjust, I think so but if you aren't really comfortable with his ability to adjust to the ZBS you probablyaren't going that route in round 2. If this was 2012 he's probably the pick.

and if we get an injury again and someone like Wagner or Sutton don't step up we've done nothing to improve.

We have only improved slightly, not even to cover for an injury or poor play.

But how would a rookie or two over the first 3 rounds change that and what OT are you drafting that wouldn't have been a reach where we are picking. It's pointless to select a guy if you don't feel he's talented enough. You're not gonna draft a OG or C high just for depth so at some point you gotta be realistic. If you don't think KO is responding well to rehab or you think Yanda might be close to done, then yes you grab a interior guy high. But if you don't then you add 4th, 5th and 6th round guys for depth and insurance against injury. I don't know if you noticed but we've dedicated a total of 7 draft picks to add talent to the oline over the last 2 years. Traded 2 picks for Monroe, 1 for Shipley, 1 for Zuttah and drafted 3 interior olineman. Now if you question the talent we are adding that another issue, but I think it's crazy to think the FO isn't adding talent.

There is no guarantee that any RT you draft in round 2 or 3 would step up anymore then Wanger. Jack Mewhort, Justin Britt, Morgan Moses and Billy Turner who you picking? Those are the guys the Ravens could have got in either 2 or 3 based on where we picked. Mewhort is probably more of a C/G like Jensen, maybe a bit better but are u using a 2nd rounder to upgrade your backup position? Britt was said to be greatly over drafted. Mayock had a 5th round grade on him. Mayock doesn't know all, but he's usually pretty good. I like Moses but he's more of a roadgrader at RT that doesn't fit the bill of what we're looking for there. Turner is raw and honestly not even as good as Wagner imo. So if you were to select a OT in rounds 2 or 3 are you really confident that you've upgraded that position. If not then why not jump at a chance to potentially upgrade a position you just lost Art Jones at?

Is he really a back with the vision required to be an effective zone runner?  I have questions about that too.

Same here, I question his patience as well. It'll be interesting to see where Rice stands with this team if he is indeed suspended and during that time period both BP and LT are thriving in this system. The are both prefect for this system and actually forms a really nice tandem with how they are projected to compliment each other.

Now I'm not ready to run Ray out of town or even suggest he's no longer in favor with the team, I just think it'll be interesting to see how Harbs and Kubes would work him back in if the offense is clicking with the other two backs. Kubes probably doesn't have any loyalty to Ray he'll just want to see the offense succeed. While Harbs has enough loyalty to Rice that he'll probably want to see Rice put everything behind him and get back to being special for the Ravens.

Their offenses might not have been high powered - as with Eli - but they were not completely inept either. Let's not act like any of those offenses were anywhere near as poor as ours last season. And it's funny how when it is an offensive team - you're like excusing it. Talk about not getting it both ways.

Could it be possible that our offense was so poor last year do to poor play by bad players and injuries? If we were looking to Gino, AQ, Clark, Dickson, Stokely and Doss to raise their level of play then I'm right there with you, but we're not.

I'm not attacking you in any way, just trying to understand, because I find it interesting that you can list the different players that makes this offense nothing like the SB offense, yet you continue to refer to our poor offense last season but seemingly failing to realize that there will be at least 8 new players in this offense. There will be no AQ, Gino, Oher, Leach, Doss, Clark, Dickson or Stokely in the offense this year. Not to mention there is a good chance that most if not all off your injured players will return healthy this year. Who knows how they will perform off injury but getting them back healthy is a plus. So based on the 8 guys who either left or lost starting jobs and the 3 guys coming off injury, not counting Joe and Coby, that's almost 75% of the offense that will be different in some form this year.

As for the draft, again why would you reach for offensive talent just to say you addressed the offense? You caution people from relying on the return of injured players but wouldn't it be even tougher to rely on rookies who've done nothing? In only 5 games before injury Daniels out performed both our TEs full season last season and he's slated to be our #2. I'd say the potential of what he'll bring is worth getting excited about. Pitta nearly out performed those guys in the 4 games he played. Yes they're coming off injury but I'd say we've upgraded that position. Yes Steve Smith is old and technically had a down year but he still projected at 68 catches and close to 800 if he didn't sit out the final game. What are the odds a rookie would do that for us? This offense has improved from last year. I think it's crazy not to see that.

It may all come to pass - who knows.

I guess I am the only one here who is old enough to remember 2006 - arguably better than our 2000 defense - when it just wasn't enough to overcome poor offensive play once the post season came around.

Then waiting around for a franchise QB for all those years.

Now that we have one - we hang him out to dry and don't give him support around him. It is balance that wins championships. And we're out of balance right now.

How can you remember 06 but forget about 2012? Look I get it and honestly the only reason why I'm probably not just as frustrated as you is because I believe we got the best value for each pick over the first 3 rounds and I greatly believe in our offensive system. Kubes is really able to get the most out of his players.

Now the reason I ask how could u remember 06' but forget about 12' is because we have basically the same offense we won a SB with. I now believe we have even more talent and a OC who will get the best out of it. You look at 06' it's wasn't because we lacked talent on offense, for stretches in that season the offense was really good. The problem we had was we had a washed up QB on his last legs and about week 15 that leg finally gave out. Now I love Mac9, but once we got into the Playoffs in that Colts game he could barely drive the ball 7-10 yards down field, which is why the Colts just sat on every thing. That wasn't last of talent around the QB which you seem to suggest now, that was QB not being able to maximize the talent around him.

Last year imo Joe got the most out of every guy around him. The issue was the talent around him failed along with his failure as well. Torrey had a strong year considering he was our only proven option. Brown had a solid season for any rookie. Hell Joe even got the best out of Doss. The problem was he also had to rely on Clark, Dickson, Stokely, and at least 2 olineman who just shouldn't have been on the field. Now you have a healthy Pitta and Daniels, two sure handed TEs. You have Smith sr who is a more then capable compliment to Torrey, so now Torrey won't be every teams focus. Now Brown is a #3 and basically has to force his way into having more reps with so many proven guys around him, so if you do find yourself relying on him its only because he proved reliable. This forces Jacoby too more of a specialist role, where the deep passes are more of a bonus and not something we rely heavily on.

Still haven't touched on how Juice could be used if he forces his way into the rotation and Foster had a ton of catches for Kubes, so Ithink iit's safe to say, legal issues aside that Rice will be a big part of the passing game as well. Is the oline great? Not imo but the great news is that none of Kubes olines were considered great on paper, but because they brought into the system they performed great together. I feel we have the talent on the oline my only question is how quickly do they buy in to the system?

last sentence. Wouldn't that dictate taking offence higher as you need better players?

Not really. I think it makes you look at the offensive guy and make sure you are 100% sold on that guy. If you aren't sure a guy like Allen Robinson being a up grade over what you have in Marlon Brown, then you are probably more inclined to go for the defensive guy(if the ratings are the same) because with the defensive guy even if he's similar to what you already have you can still rotate him on. Chances are if select Robinson, he and Brown won't rotate and split reps. One of those guys will probably be buried down your depth chart, much like Doss was buried for years, being a similar player to Boldin.

Arnie I definitely get where you're coming from. I just feel when you have a philosophy likethe Ravens do of sticking to your board, it's hard to go away from that to start picking for need.

As for why it seem we look to always upgrade the defense through the draft is because we believe in building a team that way and it's easier to draft defenders. On defense you have anywhere between 18-24 players getting gave action every week because you rotate those guys. Offense isn't the same.

On defense if a guy isn't as good early on, you can still get him on the field because of rotations. Case and point, Cody as a 2nd rounder has been less then impressive overall, yet the defense can still preform at a high level despite his spotty play. However, if Torrey Smith followed the same path as Cody, being less than impressive, our offense would struggle greatly.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's easier to over come amiss on defense then it is on offense.

allen robinson or jace amaro would have been my pick at 48. Or cody latimer, nicklas as well. All went in the second.

My pick instead of gilmour would have been any of the next four picks, or andre williams.

I fimrly believe we then could have got Crockett where we took our rb. No tight ends went until 155.

Theses picks may or may not be better than what we done, but at least we would have given our offense a huge chance to improve.

Again I like the players, but id like our front office to go all in after paying a qb like every other team does. I don't see the point paying a qb and still be determined to not put top help around him.

I definitely understand where you're coming from but again it's about value. You either stay true to your board of you don't. You said you would have taken Robinson instead of Timmy. Well Robinson was taken 13 picks after the Ravens took Timmy. Be honest, if Robinson wasn't a favorite of yours, would you consider that a reach to select a perceived need? Also i just watched the post draft presser and I feel stronger about this then before. Given what we know about Brown, a heck of a rookie season despite a overall poor offense, is Robinson a upgrade over him or at least brings something different to the offense? I say no. So for me what's the point of adding a guy who is similar to a 2nd year guy that we already have, only to basically havethose guys compete for the same spot?

Imo Jace would have been aluxury pick. He's a younger bigger Pitta. That's great but it's kinda a waste. Pitta isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Kubes uses a inline TE and move TE in his 2TE sets. With Jace and Pitta you basically have 2 move guys and no blocking unless you go 3TE. He'll be a helluva player I think but doesn't fit what we are doing.

As far as swapping out Gilmore for one of the higher rated RBs, here's the problem. Again you need a inline TE for what Kubes wants to do. Gilmore is one of the better inline TEs in this draft and a guy Kubes really liked from what I hear. Gilmore probably has more of a 4th round grade, but you have no more original picks until the 6th round. So if you pass on him now how can you bank on being able to draft him later knowing you can't trade up. RBs are gonna be there, most are a dime a dozen, but a quality inline TE isn't. Rember Ozzie doesn't have hindsight.

Also with the pick of Taliferro, Eric said he was one of the best pass pro backs they had rated. Most of the top backs struggle in that area. Remember how poor our backs were at that last year? We're taking about upgrading right. Andre Williams isn't good at pass pro and offers next to nothing as a pass catcher. Is that really a upgrade or just a well-known name?

You stay you would have taken the next 4 picks over Gilmore. Well Thomas will have to red shirt his first year and he's probably a better guard then OT, does that really up grade us? Watkins is more of a ST guy and my might be able to slide into your nickle, but I don't see him as a upgrade over Chikye. Both Breeland and Freeman would have been really good picks but agian, if the inline TE is among your top 3 rated guys and you know you have no ammo to move up in the next round if need be, how do you pass on that guy?

I have one problem with brooks. He doesn't get enough interceptions. With his athletic ability its a tad concerning.

TB can definitely improve his ball skills but I don't think it's concerning. Again he's just 2 years into the FS position so everything you see from him now it's just natural ability and instincts. Once he truly gets the position down and learn how control his angles to the ball the ints will come.

it would be putting your offense in the best situation to succed6d5 instead of virtually setting for the status quo.

I could use the exact same argument for the defensive players we just drafted that you used to discredit the offensive ones we didn't draft.

But we have addressed the offense. We've traded like 4 draft picks to upgrade the oline. Those two olineman are proven, not just some prospects. Steve Smith although short term is proven. I hardly think the offense is staying status quo because we've gone out and made the attempt to upgrade. No Oher, Shipley, Gino, Dickson, Clark, Stokely or Caldwell/Hostler all guys we counted on heavily to perform well offensively or scheming they failed. Are the guys replacing them any better? We won't know until they play, but they were definitely brought in as up grades. Status quo would have been not adding anything and hoping Gino, A.Q and Dickson found a way to get better.

Also we've both been around long enough to know Ozzie stays true to his board. Looking back at the draft what offensive guy would you had picked over our defensive pick?. Now remember we only had 4 tradable picks so moving up was nearly impossible. Let's just have some fun and see who would've been your pick.

At 17, I thought CJ was a no brainer given how the board fell and the type of person/player he is. I would have loved Kelvin Benjamin but even as a die hard Noles fan, I wouldn't touch him at 17. There was 5 offensive players selected in round 1 after our pick. 2 QBs, a 2nd round(imo) OT, Cooks who is good but didn't fit what we're looking for Imho and Benjamin. Trading down was the only way we would have gotten good offensive value.

At 48 you had some good value on the board, but Timmy is a legit 10-15 range pick sitting in your face. Noway you thought you'd have this guy available. But he was, surrounded by olineman who projects better inside, WRs who gives you almost the same thing Brown gives you and at least 1 TE who really fits what we want. Plus some of the top RBs. There was only 2 guys i would have even considered over Timmy there. Landry and Niklas but I think Timmy was the easy choice. Remember you are dealing with a back that isn't old and non productive. RB is only a issue because of injury and legal problems. You are also talking about a position where we see more and more late round picks having better production then the top drafted RBs. So do you really wanna go RB over a top 10-15 talent just to say we addressed a need on offense?

Now look at 79, again you are looking at a guy sitting there in your face who want expected to be there. At this point all the WRs left are even more developmental. As are the olineman and you are probably confident that the inline TE your targeting will be there, what other position are you selecting?

I think if we went offense over the first 3 rounds we would have probably been reaching on some guys and certainly not getting great value.

firmly believe lee and robinson could have. Matthews might have as well.

I feel those are just names at this point. I would have loved Lee, buy he doesn't make us or break us. Robinson and Matthew would provide exactly what we have in Brown imo. I think the biggest thing and the draft is nobody knows what Kubes view is after evaluation his players and building a offense to fit what we currently have.

It would have made you "feel" better to grab a big name offensive guy. But that doesn't mean the offense would have improved any, it would have just looked good to say we added to the offense.

Imo as good as the WR class was this year, there were only about 3 true #1guys. Everyone else were just strong 2s or slot guys. If Kubes felt the same way then he probably told Ozzie the type of guy he needed. If history stands we are talking about a guy who has built an great offense around average to good players at Oline, RB and the TE positions. Kubes may very well feel he has what he needs to coordinate a top 10 offense. If that's the case why wouldn't Ozzie take the opportunity to land 3 potential great defenders if they were all top on his board. Camp is one of the better slot WRs in this class, so cats if he didn't come over the first 3 rounds? If the Ravens wanted to come away with a strong slot guy who can keep the chains moving for Joe act they came away with that guy it's a win. Imo

It's not really about his ability, I was literally scratching my head saying "who is that?"

OK got cha. I said the same thing.

BPA is the way to build great teams. Reach for need and you end up with the Gino Gradkowskis. Can't draft offense just for the sake of offense. 

 

My friend from FSU has really sold me on Jernigan. Still not sure about Gillmore but I'll watch some tape and give him a shot. That's the one pick that really has me scratching my head.

Why are you scratching your head? I think he's a really solid fit for what we are looking for in this offense. I think everyone got lost in the fact of grabbing a big play TE type, but of you look at the current system that's not really needed. If we are going to run this WCO/ZBS type offense then we need to commit to it. We already have two move TEs, we needed a inline TE and Gilmore seems to be that. I agree with your post overall. Just wanted to know what it is about the Gilmore pick that has you puzzled

I don't know about that. If we sign Steve Smith, we have Jones, Smith, Smith, Marlon, and Mallette. If we do draft a WR, I doubt it would be high. He would be the 6th receiver on the depth chart. I would like to see us focus on our other needs, other then WR in FA.

I don't completely agree wiith this. I do think signing Steve would allow the Ravens to pinpoint another position early in the draft, but if a WR is drafted early, I don't think he's automatically the #6 guy. Nothing is promised to Mellette but the opportunity to compete. As good as Brown was as a rookie he still has to prove he can be a reliable guy. Too many times you see a guy have one solid year as a rookie then fall off the next year. Just think about Peirce and KO, even though injuries had a lot to doo with it, they were nowhere near as good in year 2. Then you have Jacoby who is more of a specialist/deep threat and if Steve Smith was added he'd only be on a 1-2yr deal as a older player. So I hardly think we are set at the WR position to the extent that a high drafted rookie would automatically be the #6 WR.

Hostler away to the bills. Thank god

How could he possibly leave, he's a Harbuddy. Surprised Harbs didn't deny permisson lol

I believe that if and once Gary Kubiak turns our offense in a top ten one, then he will be offered head coaching jobs. We might not be able to keep Gary Kubiak for more than one season. Just look at Jim Caldwell after he turned our offense for a magical run in the playoffs last year. 

 

So whatever happens, I hope Rick Dennison is next in command, unless he follows Gary Kubiak for a new team.

The only thing that might allow us to hold onto Kubes is he's getting good money from us and just falls in love with being a Coordinator again. He was definitely looking for a HC job so I have no doubt that'll be the case again. But he might actually fall in love with the situation he has here already and get picky about who he coaches for again. I'm really reaching at straws here, cause I would love to see him stay 3+ years to really install thiss offense and allow the players to master it.

The thing is,the little glimmer of hope I had in Ed coming back here is gone just because he wouldn't want to come here while Kubiak's here. Just my opinion...Even though they're on the different side of the ball they're still co workers. And as much as I love John (and this is just my opinion) I don't think he'd want Ed back regardless of what he says. But I don't know if that would be the case so there's my glimmer. With Kubiak on the staff I think that's gone.

Why wouldn't Harbs want Ed back? Did I miss something between them? Also, I don't think people hold grudges in the NFL as much as us fans want to believe. Ed Reed has a habit of speaking his mind, beit right or wrong. Whatever may or may not be between Kubes and Ed wouldn't keep either guy from doing their job imo.

I think your glimmer of hope should be lost in the fact that Ed still wants to play football not coach. I think Ed would be a hellava coach, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon.