Ravensfan23

13 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I like what Wallace did here as well, but if we're paying Britt that $8M salary than having Mike Wallace at that 8M cap hit just isn't something you would want. I think Perriman kind of relieves Wallace of his duties, being that speed guy and someone who can highpoint the ball and make those tough grabs, things that I don't think are Wallace strongest qualities. I'd also point to Wallace 2nd half decline, to be honest with you it's something I would be concerned about. 

Watching the Falcons offense, iv notice that outside of Julio they have guys who just get free runs, what I mean by that is play designs that get guys open. I want to see more from that from the Ravens, scheme guys open when playing a zone coverage. 

Personally, I love a Perriman-Britt pairing. For one, Kenny Britt could really do some great things here, he was really limited in the Rams offense. We all know about Perriman and the things that held him back, I feel that his route running is going to be worked on this off season and if he improves on that then I'm thinking he truly breaks out next season. We could have 2 1,000 yard WRs IMO. 

I don't think Wallace is playing at 8M next year for the Ravens at all. If he stays it's gonna be at a lower cap number. He either takes the pay cut or get cut. I can't see him here at 8M. Wallace is really limited in this offense. Much like Pitta his numbers look good but  imo he's one of the guys that held this offense back after watching the games again. If he can win off the LOS then he's an option on those slants and shallow crosses. However if the CB plays tight man he usually doesn't win. 

Yea they definitely have guys outside of Julio, which is one of the biggest reasons I want Britt, but having Jones really helps to open things up for that offense. I think he only had like 4 catches but you see that even with Sherman on, the Hawks defense gave him a ton of attention. Ravens definitely need to scheme better, but something else I noticed watching the games again was that the Ravens schemed guys like Wallace, Sr and Pitta to match up 1on1 with a MLB numerous times and they didn't win. So while scheme needs to improve, the players have to win. 

For me the Perriman-Britt pairing would be great because they are basically the same WR but go about things differently. Both are big physical guys who can work every area of the field. With Britt you have a guy who works the intermediate areas so well that the it opens up down field opportunities for him. Because he uses his body well, you rarely see him getting jammed at the LOS because DBs can't stop him from getting to his spot. He really dominate that 12-16 yard range. With 4 yards or more to go on 3rd downs Britt's numbers are eye popping. 35 targets 25recs 71% with 16 1st downs converted. This opens things up down field for him. With Perriman he's more of a speed guy who will be able to get to any spot he wants because DBs will be scared of him running past them. If he learns how to use his big body the Ravens have something special on their hands. Britt at 6'3 225 and Perriman at 6'3 210 would cause some problems on the outside. 

25 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I like Kenny Britt and at $8M it's hard to say no, with that said I would have the expectation that he would start, wouldn't shock me if this team moved on from Mike Wallace because of it. 

Marvin Jones got $7M per year so Britt at $8M is fine with me. Not to mention he's a pretty damn good player, he played in an nightmare offense with an awful QB situation. He could do a lot here. Again though, I wonder what that would mean for Mike Wallace, I think the Ravens would relieve Wallace and go after a slot WR with Perriman being relied upon to step up either as #1 or #2. 

I wouldn't have an issue with parting ways with Wallace. He definitely earned his kept but he doesn't really fit this offense as a top option imo. He's more of a 4th option to me. A speed guy who can take advantage of coverage but I want someone who can consistently run strong routes and keep drives alive. I know many will say Perriman isn't that guy but I think he will be with a full offseason and the chance to properly develop. Going forward I actually like Moore taking the role of Wallace. 

If signed Britt will definitely be the starter along with Perriman. Wallace might actually begin the season as the starter but Perriman is primed to be at least the #2 next year. Britt would bring a constant chain mover with big play potential, but I also like the thought of him helping Perriman play a little more physical. 

I'm sitting here watching Dez after watching Julio yesterday and I so desperately want this offense to have a go to WR who isn't either past his prime or has one foot already in retirement. If we don't have a true go to guy, I want two guy that compliment each other very well and can wreck havoc. I think Britt and Perriman could be that pair. 

49 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

The problem for us is that it's not just WRs and corners getting paid - everybody will pocket much more than most of the board thinks. I doubt we'd be able to upgrade several positions with quality guys for modest price. We'll have to choose one, maybe two.

I've said before that the Ravens are actually in a pretty good position imo. I say that because they no longer have a surplus of bad contracts that can't be touched. Guys like Pitta, Doom, Zuttah, and others can be cut without a ton of dead money involved. I'd put ways with all those guys with the exception of Webb and Sizzle, then put myself in a position to play in FA if a see a guy worth going after. 

8 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I didn't know Austin or Hurns even got extensions so I am stunned by their price tags and in that case you could very well be 100% right but this just shows me we need to do better at scouting these guys in the draft. Wow.

Yea we definitely gotta do better. The college game and NFL game is so similar now there is no reason not to have a really good young WR or two. That goes for TE as well. I like the take that the Ravens went Perriman and Maxx back to back last year with Stanley this year. Those guy gotta step up now and the Ravens can't go into a shell drafting offensive guys. If a guy like Courtland Sutton makes his way to the Ravens in the 2nd round need to pull the trigger instead of trading down to get more picks and selecting a guy like Jaleel Johnson who might be a really good defensive lineman but wouldn't improve this team more than a play maker would. 

31 minutes ago, K-Dog said:

That is a GREAT idea.

I think it just might be the key to success. 

I think that's definitely the key. Build this offense around some young talent that can take over games and score often. Then build a defense that can just hold a lead. The NFL isn't built for 14-10 games anymore. No matter how strong you are defensively teams are going to move the ball and score on you. Just look at the playoffs thus far. The Seahawks and Texans are probably 2 of if not the top 2 defenses in the playoffs. ATL absolutely shredded SEA and as well as the Texans played defensively the Pats eventually cracked that code. Just look at both the Ravens and Steelers games. In today's NFL eventually the better offenses will get the best of the better defenses. I think the best defense is a good offense and that pains me as a defensive guy. 

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

@Ravensfan23I'm sorry but maybe I misunderstood you here but there's no way I'd be happy if we paid Britt $8m/Year let alone $10m. I'd sooner go after Garçon who will cost less than that or others. I like Britt too but not for that price.

Nope you didn't misunderstand. I'd certainly give Britt 8M per. Was definitely overstating with the 10M. Not sure many are giving much thought to where the WR market is heading. There is no way Garcon gets less than 9.5M imo. 

Tavon Austin just got 10.5M. Allen Hurns just got 10.1M. Crabtree just got 8.5M, coming off a poor injury filled season BMarshall was given 8.6, Marvin Jones who's never had a 1,000 yard season and missed the entire 2014 season, was given 8M. Torrey got 8M, Garcon is currently making 8.5M and coming off a successful run with the Redskins, no way he signs for less than what he made last year at only 30 years old. 

The Ravens gave Mike Wallace 5.7M and he was coming off a 39rec 473yds 2TD season. Can you imagine what guys like AB, Jordan Matthews, D. Adams, D. Hopkins, Landry, Allen Robinson and other will get next year? 8Mil for a guy like Britt with the type of production he can put up in this offense will be a bargin imo. That would put him in the 25th highest ranked WR and after next year that contract will drop him down to about 35th with the WRs in line for big pay days next year. The WR market is about to explode. I'd love Garcon I just think he'll be a WR who gets 9.5-11M on the open market. Ravens can't afford that imo. More than likely you are right and the Ravens won't offer him anything close to 8M but i think he'll definitely get that somewhere and I wouldn't have issue paying him here. He and Perriman would make a nice 1-2 punch for another 4-5 years imo. 

1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I'm not a fan of overpaying Williams, if the time arrives where he prices himself out then yes, we should let him go, the Ravens are certainly in the right to let him go at +10M. I'll be honest here, I wasn't a fan of prioritizing Williams over Wagner at first, but after seeing what happened to our run D late in the season, and seeing the regress of Timmy Jernigan, I felt that the defensive line could be in trouble without Williams next season. However, if I can keep Williams at a good price but have to let Wagner go as a result, then I would do it. 

As far as Harrison's contract goes, that's the mark for the #1 run stopping NT in the league. I don't see any reason for Williams to surpass that by a high amount, the cap number will be going up, but I don't think that automatically means teams are going to just throw money at FAs. 

In Wagner's case, the 10M per year seems way too high, I would be shocked if he got that amount. The only way I see Wagner getting 10M or even above is if a team expects that he plays LT that next season or in the least sees him just as versatile. The highest paid RT is Lane Johnson but the Eagles paid him with the expectation that he'll move to LT.

As far as the Ravens comparison between Alex Lewis and KO, I find that interesting because the Ravens didn't view KO as a LG exclusively, they viewed him as someone who can play all over the line, they just had someone who they signed long terms in Monroe, and Wagner who was holding it down at RT, beyond that the Ravens viewed KO as a potential option at LT and to a degree, it harmed them in the end because even the Oakland Raiders agreed to that. Of course you and I know this, but I think the Ravens comparison Lewis to KO could also speak to his versatility. We did see Lewis at LT, even if it wasn't pretty at least he played there. I think the Ravens not only think he's a really good LG, but they might feel that he's just as good at RT, that could convince them to grab a LG and have an even better line this year than last with C being the only spot they would have address via draft. You can do that, and in the process retain Brandon Williams if it comes at a good price.

 

The thing about Harrison is it's not non debatable that he's #1 in terms of NT. I've seen many people list BWill the best NT in the game and more so this is just us talking as fans. All it takes is one team to really fall in love with him. As much of a fan of his as I am, there is no way I can justify KO getting the type of contract he got. So we just don't know what these teams will spend their money. The guy who set the market in 2016 is sure to be the 2nd or 3rd highest paid by the following year. 

As far as Lewis I don't think it's an issue about how good of a RT he is. Yanda is a great RT but he's equally as great at RG and by your own words the LG position is more important than the RT position. So if the Ravens really like what they've gotten so far and LG is a primer position, why move him to a position where he won't have as much impact. So it not really about comparing him to KO strictly for a LG perspective, I think it's exactly like you said, they feel he's a versatile guy who can fill multiple positions but they really like him at LG so why move him to bring in a high priced guy. If the Ravens feel they can get high level play from Lewis at LG, i'd rather save the money and invest it into other positions because if Wagner leaves finding a high level replacement won't be as expensive as a LG would be. Those top young LG who will be available could get KO like money and even if it's close to him that's a lot. If it's not one of the better LGs why even shake things up there? The money it'll take to sign a free agent that's worth it, will cost the same if not more than Wagner. If you can get a LG that's hands down better than Lewis at a great price, by all means you do it. But right now I think the Ravens feel they have their LG of the future.

I don't think Wagner gets that much either. I've said many times that I don't get the impression that he needs to be the highest paid guy in the NFL but definitely wants to be signed to what he feels is respectable. I really think we're looking at a 6.5-6.7M per for Wagner and I think that's more than enough for him. The only scare is that he's the top RT on the market, but I'm not sure how many teams greatly value the RT position enough to pay over market value. Wagner is a top 10 RT and I think he can becomes one of the best at the position but I don't see his value being so high the Ravens can't afford him 

8 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Maxx definitely doesn't get enough credit for what he's done as a blocker.  I don't know if I'd call him the best necessarily, but the dude has had moments where he's absolutely mowed people over in the run game.  I think he gets pinned in as a receiver only since that's how he's always been viewed, but he's come a long way in his blocking.

I'd agree he has his moment where he sticks his hat in there and will move people. But it wasn't consistent enough his rookie year. Which is understandable. I though he was performing well in limited spots his 2nd year before the injury but definitely wouldn't call him the best blocker. 

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'd aruge Williams is easily the best of the group with Gilmore being severely overrated by fans.

I definitely wouldn't stand with you on that one. From a overall standpoint yes I'd agree that  Gilmore gets overrated by fans, but from a blocking standpoint I think he's easily better than Williams. Maxx looked over matched in the run game at times during his rookie year and really didn't get much time to show his improvement in year two because of injury. I think Maxx will develop into a well rounded TE but I don't think he's there yet. 

29 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

I feel that due to BWill and Wagner both being ranked in the free agent top 25, it will play hard on us retaining them. Especially considering they are both listed as the #1 free agents at their positions. Now of course, all that may change as cap cuts from other teams are made but, I still believe it will drive their price up beyond what our team feels they can afford imo.

I think it's impossible to keep both. So the decision becomes who's more important to your team. I think that player is Wagner because finally building a young are really good offensive line in front of Flacco needs to be priority. Outside of FB, RT is probably the less attractive position on the team. If Wagner was a LT everyone would be saying how the Ravens need to resign him. I think continuing to build this offense has to take priority. 

35 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I actually really like Gilmore (I think he's overrated, but still good) and Maxx as blockers... just, they're never healthy.

I like all 4 of the young TEs as blockers, at least from a willingness to block. Boyle and Gilmore are the better of the group but both Maxx and Waller will stick their heads in there. 

4 hours ago, JonnyBaltimore said:

I don't think these past 2 regular seasons is that much different than his career averages in the regular season. His QBR is low 80s on average. People have selective memory, they just remember the Super Bowl run and the big games (and rightfully so) but in the regular season, Flacco has been mostly pedestrian.

He's kind of like Peyton Manning except the opposite. He stinks it up in the regular season, but lights it up in the playoffs.

I rest my case.

Flacco is part of the solution, but management would be wise to draft a star on the offence that can actually carry the load in the regular season. History says we just cannot rely on January Joe to show up that early in the season.

My memory isn't selective as all. I remember 2010 being the best year of his career up to that point and the team deciding to get rid of two of his best weapons to rely on  2 rookies(Smith, Doss)  2 2nd year players(Pitta, Dickson) and a new WR(Evans) that was in great decline the next year. So what happened, instead of his production staying the course of the steady incline or even exploding, it dipped because Flacco went from a wealth of experience to being asked to rely on inexperienced kids. Flacco went from a combined 132rec 1,895yds 15Tds from Mason, Heap and Housh to a grand total of 12rec 153yds 1TD to replace that production. Your young franchise QB is taking the next step in his development and you decide to do a overhaul on offense and with inexperienced players no less. I love the Ravens brass but no other top organization would do this foolishness.  This was just one example of factors that has lead to Flacco being so pedestrian in the regular, but I think it was the most defining moment in his career and that's basically how every 2-3 years of his career.  

I agree with you 100% that Flacco has been pedestrian and inconsistent much of the regular season throughout his career, but the Ravens brass has to take a ton of that responsibility because I haven't seen any team mishandle the QB position as bad as the Ravens have. Not comparing Flacco to Brady here, but I think that example is a good one. When the Pats realized that the NFL was no longer a "Defense wins Championships" league and they couldn't rely on their defense like they did for Brady's 1st 7 years, they changed with the times. From 00'-06' Brady's numbers were just as pedestrian as Flacco's. But the Pats knew in order to get ahead of the times or at least keep up, they had to hand the offense over to Brady. So what did they do, They knew added players to hide Brady's deficiencies. Moss for the deep ball, Welker who gets open quick because Brady.wasn't a tigh window passer and Stallworth to take advantage of the other two pulling coverage. Much like Flacco, this was the defining moment of Brady's career because it gave him the confidence that he no only could win a SB but also carry his offense. 

So when you say the Ravens need to supply Flacco with great talent that can help carry this team, I don't see it as a knock to Flacco like so many others do. I actually agree and think it should have been done a long time ago, because that's exactly how the game's greatest QBs were ushered into greatness, the talent surrounding them. Who was Montana without Rice, Aikman without Irvin, Peyton without Harrison, Wayne and James, Rodger without Driver and Gennings and I could go on. Flacco has to be better in the regular season no doubt, but the FO has to take a long hard look at how they want this team to go. You can't scream Flacco is your guy, pay him but don't surround him with adequate talent. I respect the Ravens for wanting to build a balanced team and keep that long standing tradition of Baltimore being known for great defense. However you have to make a decision on either building a great offense or great defense because if you don't the overall team will be mediocre imo and making your QB the highest paid in the NFL should make that decision clear. 

18 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Yea i know Britt is the physical beast, i would just feel better if we had that reliable guy, because of right now i dont think we have one.  Ive been all about bringing him in, i just dont know the market value for him. 

As for as the RS, i think thats an area we lack.  Look at the different Jacoby made, he caught 37, 30, 9 passes in his three years here.  Having that great field position or even the chance of a returned TD is huge and we dont have that right now.  Did we even have a speacial teams return for a TD?  Obviously it would be a cheap deal but i think the upside is worth it.  Just sick of seeing ST lacking a play maker

That's the thing about Britt he has been a reliable guy. Over the past 3 seasons he's recorded 152rec and 109 of those have gone for first downs. That's 71% of his receptions going for first downs. By comparison Sr, has 197rec and 112 went for first downs. That's 56% over the same time frame. Now of course I'm not saying he's as good as Sr, especially considering SSS missed like 9 games last year. I think what drives his value up is that he's only 28 and when healthy he's proven to be a really good talent. Some team might think they could get #1 type production out of him but I think he's a #2 that can consistently move the chains and also stretch the field which is exactly what the Ravens said they wanted. Also I think he may give the Ravens that Boldin feel. 

With the RS, Dragonfly was the #3 WR for 2 of those years and expected to be the #2 guy his final year before getting hurt. Right now I don't think Patterson even sniffs the field at WR right now and I don't even think the WR group is that impressive as it stands right now. I'd love the move if it were cheap but I think that money needs to go else where right now. 

1 hour ago, JonnyBaltimore said:

It has nothing to do whether the QB is ''good'' or not. It is a matter whether the QB ''fits'' the philosophy of the organization going forward. As an organization, I think what they are doing is giving themselves flexibility. If they are changing coaching philosophies then they would want to keep their options open. Tyrod is obviously a different type of QB than your traditional pocket passer, but this does not negate the fact that he has performed well over the past 2 years.

If you believe Flacco has outplayed Tyrod in the regular season in the last 2 years, convince me.

Whether an organization chooses to exercise an option on a quarterback has no bearing on whether the QB is good or not. It is a matter of fit and value in most cases.

This would make so much sense and I'd agree with we weren't talking about the most important position on the field. Good to great QBs win championships coaches don't. A team would much rather sign and be locked into a franchise QB before they get a coach rather than the other way around. I don't care if you're talking about a pocket passer or mobile QB, a good QB is hard to find and you don't need to have flexibility when you believe in your QB. I'm sorry that just doesn't make sense to me. If you know you have a QB you can win with, you don't flirt with losing him. Fact is they don't know believe in Tyrod right now, they want to see if they can get someone better and if not Tyrod is their fall back plan. It's that simple and that's not how good QBs or should I say well respected QBs are treated. 

Now with that being said, I think Tyrod is a heck of a QB and think he's played better than Flacco over the last 2 seasons. However we're comparing a QB with a jacked up knee and plenty of change around him to a QB who is sheltered in his offense and isn't asked to do much. We're talking about Flacco having possibly the worse 2 season stretch in his career. That's pretty low hanging fruit for anyone comparing Tyrod or any other QB for that matter to Joe.  

5 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

There is no way i would feel comfortable paying Britt that much.  Im not sure how good of a route runner he is, maybe someone can speak to that.  He is a physical freak for sure and i definitely would want to bring him in, i just have no idea what his cost is going to be.  Lets just hope he doesnt go to NE.  Him and Garcon are my two guys and if they are going to cost about the same, i like the upside of Britt, but his injury past does concern me, i know he has only missed one game in 3 years. 

I would also really like to bring in Cordelle Patterson as a return specialist, like how we used jacoby.  We need that playmaker back there and for some reason, maybe i didnt notice, i dont think Moore got any shots back there

It may not be Britt, but you are going to have to start investing money into the WR corp. The Ravens don't draft at that position well enough to just rely on young guys and you can't continue to continue on 1-3 year options with vets on the back 9 of their career. 

Britt runs routes well enough. If you want a great route runner that's gonna make everything look pretty than Garcon and Woods on a lower level are the way to go imo. Britt isn't a pretty route runner but he's more than effective. Fact is, most big WRs aren't great route runners, you just won't find many. I watched Julio today and I didn't come away marveling at his route running, he's just a physical freak that is hard to match up with and that's how Britt is. No where near Julio's level before anyone thinks that what I'm saying. I'm just saying that guys like Brandon Marshall, T.O, Mike Irvin, Dez Bryant etc these aren't your pretty route runners. These are your i'm physically better than you and know how to use my body when need be. For what the Ravens want to do, Britt runs routes well enough and has improved his explosiveness each year since getting back fully from that knee injury. He's a big bodied guy that gets between defender and the ball with plus hands. That's what the Ravens need. Don't know if they'd be willing to pay him 10M, I'm think more around the 9M range but with inflated contract numbers for WR coming over the next few years, Britt will probably end up being a bargain for some team as a high level #2 type. 

As far as Patterson, what does he offer as a WR. I don't think Harbs or Ozzie for that matter, who to pay a RS only. I think they'd rather allow guys like Moore, Camp, Reynolds and maybe even Kenny Bell fight it out

2 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I mentioned Brit somewhere else.  I always liked the guy he was just plagued with injuries but has great potential, id say a one year prove it deal, no idea for how much thought,

I think he's proven enough over his career and especially the last 3 years with terrible QB play, that some team will definitely offer him a 4-5 year deal. If the Ravens can swing a prove it type deal it'll probably have to have a lot of incentives and a huge 2nd year commitment. 

2 hours ago, JO_75 said:

The Rams are likely to let "Jeff Fisher guys" walk in FA, including WR Kenny Britt. What do you guys think his value will be?

Kenny Britt is my top WR for the Ravens this year. I know there are better WRs on the market overall but for what the Ravens need I like both Britt and Woods with Britt ranking higher for me. 

Watching Sanu work in that Falcons offense makes me want Britt even more. I think Britt can bring exactly what SSS brought over the last 3 years production wise and even more imo. When the Ravens talked about what type of WR they wanted this offseason I think it fits Britt to a T. A guy who can move the chains but also fast enough to stretch the field still. When healthy Britt averages 16ypc and he's never really played in a offense that featured the pass game as much as the Ravens will. There's a article on CSN about the Redskins being interested in Britt and it mentions that sources say Britt is expect anywhere between 8-12M with established an established QB. Honestly I wouldn't be against paying him 10M per and if you can get him cheaper that's great. I think he's a guy who might get overpaid based on potential being only 29 and finally 100% healthy. I think it's time for the Ravens to start aggressively putting weapons around Flacco and I'd have no problem if they slight overpaid Britt.

1 minute ago, Moderator 3 said:

So in other words, when Flacco has a lot of input into running the offense (like in the Super Bowl run) he can be successful?  When OCs call stupid plays and tell him to stick with it, he doesn't do as well?  Oddly, in our biggest success this year (Miami) the coaches talked about sitting down with Joe and developing a game plan.  That's the only time we heard about that.

No that's not what it means. It means Flacco is so stupid and doesn't work nearly hard enough to be good at QB so coaches and players have to lie and make him look better when talking to the media. 

No but seriously I think everyone and their blind dog could see Flacco wasn't at his best this season be it the knee or whatever. But what you said is why I thought it was so important to keep Marty. I think Marty did the right thing by trying to build this offense around Joe and giving him a lot of input/control over it. I think he got carried away a little bit because the offense wasn't clicking so for him it was more important to get Flacco into a rhythm each game than to stay balanced if you will. I think he had the right intentions but this offense around the QB position has improve. But with that said I feel the Ravens laid a nice foundation for the offense moving forward. I really hope they are watching the Falcons offense in the playoffs. That offense is built around Matt Ryan but it's not about asking him to throw 40+ times every game. They don't run the ball at a extremely high level but they run it enough and well enough for the play action to be huge. This has to be Joe's offense and I think Marty is the right guy for the job because he and Marty seem to be on the same page. Now it's just about mastering the offense and giving Joe as much control over it as possible. 

4 hours ago, Militant X 1 said:

In the past, I've seen Sean Peyton and Drew Brees going over the gameplan for their upcoming opponents.  Peyton would constantly ask Drew which plays he liked and was comfortable running in particular situations and then he'd incorporate them into the game plan for that week.  

Just recently, while watching the NFL Network, I just saw a nice piece on Belichick.  And I saw him and Brady doing the same thing with Brady telling him about a particular route and adding it to the plan.  

Sincere question; I wonder if Harbaugh does that with Joe?

Those other two coaches you named are heavily involved in game planning where I don't think Harbs is too much. Harbs coaches this team like Mr. B runs it from the top. He fires guys he trust to get a job done and then delegates responsibility to those guy to get the job done. So it's the OC that gets with Flacco and does this. Here's a article where Kubiak talks about he and Joe going over gameplan. http://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/16535/why-joe-flacco-is-enjoying-career-year-under-gary-kubiak

Quote

"I kind of let him call the game in a lot of ways," Kubiak said. "On Friday, I give him my [play] card, talk to him about what I think we need to be doing, but yet, I let him come to me and say, ‘I like this first, this second, this third.’ So, when you have a player like that, you need to listen. And I tried to do that. Hopefully I’ve done that well, but I think our relationship grows every week. I have a lot of confidence in him, and hopefully he has the same.

3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't see the Ravens keeping both guys, that's just my opinion of it, either its Williams or Wagner. As I've said it might not be too expensive to keep Wagner, but then again it could be, given the nature that it only takes one team to do it. 

I don't want to discount the importance of a RT, however, I think finding a LG who can play at a high level alongside Stanley/Yanda would be a great scenario for this team. Runs up the middle are the most common runs and teams who have a great inside presence at guard run the ball very well there. Of course the C position impacts it a ton and we're bound to make the adjustment there. 

My problem with people being so quick to dismiss Williams because of the potential price tag is the scenario's that can unfold. If I can recall Biscotti said that the defense became just as liable as the offense towards the end of the year. One of the reasons for that is the collapse of the run D. Look at the guys outside of BWill who got pushed back and manhandled, now imagine subtracting BWill from that scenario. That's one to be worried about. The Ravens front office and defense has always made it a priority to stop the run, it just doesn't seem to shock me that they'll try to continue to do that. 

As far as a $10M salary goes, that's possible but Damon Harrison is a very similar player to BWill and he got a 5YR $46M deal at $9M per year, which is a bit above the mark of what BWill would get. I think at $8M it's certainly worth it, but the guaranteed dollars matter plenty. 

 

I wanna be clear that I'm not suggesting that the Ravens don't need Williams or shouldn't try to sign him. I'm just talking about value and how I think things might go because of course we don't know what will happen once the market opens. But I agree, unless the Ravens cut some guys early and BW doesn't price himself out I don't see both retained either. 

What I'll say about 10M, as you just said all it takes is one team. BW already suggested he won't be giving the Ravens any type of hometown discount and he's widely viewed as the best NT in the NFL. Hell even the Ravens called him the best NT which doesn't help in negotiations lol.  Why is the money Harrison got above the mark Bwill would get? I think the Ravens will do what they can to keep BW, but at what cost? If Williams cost 8M per it's certainly worth it and I'd be happy. However with cap numbers going up and there are some pretty poor rush defenses that have a ton of money, Williams could easily get 10+M imo. Again I hope he doesn't because I don't think the Ravens can afford to pay him that much. It's not because he's not worth it, but more because that's just not great value at the NT position. I think it's certain positions that the Ravens have a quiet confidence about being able to replace and I think NT is one of them. 

As far as Wagner goes. I just saw a report on NFL.com that Wagner could get north of 10M and I definitely wasn't expecting that. Would show that i completely know nothing lol. As far as the LG position, you talk about finding a LG who can play at a high level alongside of Stanley, the thing is the Ravens seem to think Alex Lewis is that guy. He's not just at LG as a last option or because it's no one better to fill the position. The Ravens see him as a potential top level LG and he'd pair with Stanley to build a dominate left side for years to come. I just don't see the Ravens thinking the RT isn't important enough to re-sign Wagner but they'll put a guy there who they think is already showing signs of being as good as KO? Even if the Ravens can't afford Wagner, I think Lewis stays at LG and they attack RT either through the draft or even in house with Jensen which is his natural position. 

I feel the Ravens think they have two really strong young olineman on the left side moving forward and Roman or whoever takes over as olineman coach will be extremely happy with those two. The only change I see at oline is at Center, assuming of course that Wagner doesn't price himself out. 

2 hours ago, K-Dog said:

"The Joe Flacco dump thread"

Exactly!!!!

Man seems death and injury has held a black cloud over this franchise for the last 2-3 years. Definitely sad to hear this news, but also feeling an attitude of gratefulness for what the Modell family has done for this city. 

My prayers to the family, friends and anyone impacted by this loss. 

3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

That's of course under the assumption that we plan on keeping both of them. The presser is confusing because I had the impression that Wagner is staying and Williams is leaving but the reports said the complete opposite. It doesn't add up to me that they plan on keeping both. Either way, in the event that Wagner leaves and Williams stays I think that there couldn't be a better option at RT than Lewis. If both leave, then the team would have to do something via FA at the OL. 

Of course, what we also know is that sometimes you have to take what Biscotti says as a bit of a grain of salt because the Ravens are even throwing smokescreens at pressers.

The Ravens view Wagner as a top RT, but I don't feel like they view him as an elite RT when his play has been up there with the best, I don't recall them putting him in that category. Will they be willing to pay him a $7-8M salary with BW on the block when the run D saw a complete collapse? I don't know, after thinking about it that's a very tough decision to make. Wagner's injuries could drop his value and make it very possible to keep both. 

If I can keep both guys at a relatively close price in terms of a salary per year basis, then I'm keeping BW and using Wagner's money to improve the LG and rely on Lewis to step up at RT. Of course that's just my opinion but many of the top OLs are superior in three places, LT, Guard, and Center. That's just how I feel, maybe the Ravens want to be great across the board all over the OL. 

 

Weill the thing is, if we can't trust what we heard with out own ears at the presser, we certainly can't trust any reports lol. 

I don't think Wagner will cost 8Mil but I'd definitely be willing to pay him 6.7-7Mil and i'm not sure he gets that much. Wagner has been really good and he's the type of leader going forward that could have a Marshal Yanda type impact on this team going forward. Tough, lead by example and doesn't really need to be "the guy", he just does whatever the team needs him to do and goes about it quietly. I really think he's the type that wouldn't stress the team for every penny and allow them to put money into other positions. Even if he does become the highest paid RT what is that, 7Mil max? For my money the Tackle position is always more important than the LG position even if it's RT. We see strong pass rusher wreck a game far more than dominate interior play. That's not to say that having a top level LG isn't important but right now you have a top 10 player at his position maybe even top 5 and it won't break the bank to keep him. I really don't think it'll be as tough to keep Wagner as people think. 

Brandon Willimas will cost way more than Wagner and i'm not sure his impact is as big as Wagner's. I don't really think there is such a thing as an elite RT, you either have a really good one or you don't. You even said it yourself the perceived better olines in the NFL don't have a great RT, but the flip-side to that is I bet each one of those lines value those RTs just as much as any other position, they just aren't paid well. The Ravens are talking about building a strong run game and Brandon Williams might cost 10Mil. For the same 10Mil you'll be able to sign a top 5-10 RT and the games best FB with change left.  

24 minutes ago, Edgar said:

I meant your assumption that I wasn't a fan.

Oh I don't recall assuming you u weren't a fan. I was just asking why you chose to believe that he wasn't a hard worker. But If that's the impression I gave I stand corrected

12 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

I'm just trying to point out a fundamental truth, which is Joe is not the main problem. He needs to work on mechanics and going through progressions. That is true. However, what you and others fail to understand is that he is not the main problem. He can use this offseason to improve his accuracy all he wants but his receivers are not playmakers like some of the names dropped on this thread. I'm still waiting to hear what a complementary wide receiver is. That's one of Oz's priorities, isn't it? Who will the receiver complement? Despite the lack of talented playmakers on this team, Joe managed to complete 21 passes in a row in a game this year. Yeah, some of them were dink & dunk passes. He would have had the NFL record were it not for a dropped pass in the endzone by Wallace. Of course, its not the only time he's threaded the needle in the endzone only to have one of our erstwhile receivers drop a perfectly thrown ball. He's not throwing to Dez, Antonio, Megatron, Odell, Julio, Jordy or Gronk. He's been throwing to Kamar Aiken, Chris Moore, Marlon Brown, Darren Waller, Lee Evans and others who were past their prime. Remember, we decided Anquan Boldin wasn't worth the money and he's still ballin. I don't think Anquan left due to Joe's errant passes.

John Unitas was a pretty good QB in his day. I hope you would agree. He also had some pretty good weapons named Lenny Moore, John Mackey, Raymond Berry and Jimmy Orr, just to name a few. Yet, his career completion percentage is not as high as Joe's. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm merely trying to point out to you that Joe is an excellent QB who would be even better if this organization would draft the right players. Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis were Oz's 1st & 2nd draft picks in 1996. He can't rest on his laurels forever or can he? Also, many Ravens fans who don't like Joe blame all the team's woes on him. I guess they didn't watch the 2nd Pittsburgh game. It was a very exciting game and Joe had it won. The defense gave up 21 points in the 4th quarter. I feel Joe deserves a better fate than to be blamed for the obvious coaching deficiencies on this team. He's just a scapegoat and provides our head coach and front office with a smoke screen. That's all folks!    

OK that's one game in a entire season by that same rationale, people can point to Joe's back to back picks in the Jets game. It works both ways. The fact of the matter is you are jumping to the defense of Flacco when it's not required. This is a Joe Flacco thread, if you want to talk about the shortcomings of the WRs and the role they played in the poor offensive performance, find that thread and post there. But if you can't handle people giving their honest opinions of areas they'd like to see Flacco improve or you're so emotionally invested in defending Flacco that even he said there are things he needs to improve this off-season and you come to defense as if I cursed or condemned him then it's probably gonna be a long off-season for you. 

Also I didn't fail to realize anything. I've said on numerous occasions that the weapons around him need to improve, but that doesn't change the fact that he needs to work on his footwork and accuracy, especially in this offense. When it's time to talk about the weapons around him we can finish this convo but for now this is a Joe Flacco topic and if all you have is that the WRs need to get better, then yes that truly is all.....at least for me. 

13 hours ago, Edgar said:

So......you're ok with your faulty assumption then? Should I have let that casually slide? 

I know he isn't watching game film at 8am on Monday morning with coordinators. I know when he's asked if he'll be there his response is, "I'll be in in the afternoon". Not a specific time, mind you. This is not an isolated anecdote.

I know Ray Lewis implied as much about his work ethic.

I know he's a nine year veteran who, according to the coach, "needs to work on his reads..

I know he talked about getting together with receivers in 2010 (no reports he actually did), and again in 2014 only to....not get together.

I know he's capable of playing at an extremely high level. An inspired level ...the way he played in Pittsburgh.but for some reason this is not the Flacco we've come to expect....and it should be. That's how big a Flacco supporter I am.  I actually EXPECT him to be great.....

The reason why I gave my opinion was because I was OK with it. I'm a Flacco fan as well and expect him to be great but that doesn't give me the right to question his work ethic when I've never been around him to know how he works. I'm in a competitive business with a lot of former athletes both college and professional, I know some of these men and women work their butts off 12-16 hours a day sometimes even more and they still aren't flawless in what they do. Just because Flacco still has areas to improve after nearly 10 years in the NFL doesn't mean he doesn't work hard. 

Again you don't have to take my opinion, it's my opinion not fact. I simply asked you to give evidence of your opinion which you did. But how is my assumption that if guys like Mason and Steve Smith who are as outspoken as any, would have called Flacco's work ethic in question by now faulty but you can use Ray Lewis, who didn't even stick to his word as an example? That's the definition of faulty. 

Not a single player or coach in 9 years other than Ray Lewis has questioned Flacco's work ethic, but reports are that he hasn't gotten with WRs in the offseason, it's safe to assume he doesn't put in work away from the castle?